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Author Topic: Hashing Jenin agian
Justice
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posted 30 March 2004 04:08 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Loss of innocent life is tragic and of serious concern it is bad and we can't just shrug our shoulders like it's no big deal.

The holocaust and the manner which it was carried out does how ever make it a much bigger deal then Jenin and also we are unclear at the moment how many of the total people killed were innocent bystanders and how many were armed militants? Most of the sources I've heard say at least 50% or more were armed militants you can hardly say that about the holocaust. Further more if Israeli forces wanted to indiscriminately kill as many people as possible in Jenin how come they didn't use aircraft or artillery? Too obvious??? Well in that case a complete siege would have probably work better there was no need to risk the lives of 23 soldiers.

Some interesting commentary about the movie Jenin Jenin


Seven lies about Jenin


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 March 2004 06:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cut disputed scenes from `Jenin, Jenin,' court proposes

quote:
The controversy surrounding the film stems from the fact that while it is presented as a documentary, the story is filmed from the Palestinian point of view and depicts disputed issues as fact.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 31 March 2004 01:33 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its interesting, no one wants to go over the actual facts of Jenin it would seem, Justice. Most of the other pro-Israeli posters seem more interested in branding Babblers as Anti-semites, rather than discuss the facts.

Too bad. I was hoping to learn something.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 31 March 2004 02:52 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
hash hash hash
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
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posted 01 April 2004 12:26 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would really like to hear more facts it is a definite concern of mine the most of the evidence is "eye witness accounts" or hearsay this is unless with out forensic evidence.

It could be highly likely that Israeli forces committed war crimes in Jenin but if they are exaggerated then this is a from of incitement and demonzation which in turn will only cause more violence and death on both sides.

by the way sorry to keep you waiting for the reply had to study for a "Modes of Reasoning" exam at York hopefully this will help me formulate better arguments and be a more critical thinker.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 01 April 2004 08:32 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jenin "massacre" hoax

Jenin "massacre" hoax 2

Jenin "massacre" hoax 3

Jenin "massacre" hoax 4

Jenin "massacre" hoax 5


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 April 2004 10:10 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It could be highly likely that Israeli forces committed war crimes in Jenin but if they are exaggerated then this is a from of incitement and demonzation which in turn will only cause more violence and death on both sides.

I agree that it is highly likely that the IOF committed war crimes, mmost armies do. This does not mean they should not be exposed for them. Such exposure and prosecution limits those kind of activities. Exageration may also have occurred, but given the limited information coming from the camp, and the horrible slaughter that Sharon presided over in Sabra and Shatila is it so outlandish for Palestinian leadership to fear the worst based on the initial reports?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 01 April 2004 11:55 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I agree that it is highly likely that the IOF committed war crimes, most armies do. This does not mean they should not be exposed for them. Such exposure and prosecution limits those kind of activities.

No the army does have to take responsibility if foul play did occur but soldiers and officers should be prosecuted on and individual basis as often does happen it is a little more tricky especially in the terrain these soldiers find them selves in and once again stress individual prosecution. The IDF does have a moral code of conduct usually it is applies fairly well but it isn't always easy in these situations.

quote:
Exageration may also have occurred, but given the limited information coming from the camp,

Once again need for forensic evidence. Many independent agencies have been their since surely they would have found something. Actually this reminds of some thing where are WMD's, where are WMD's???

quote:
and the horrible slaughter that Sharon presided over in Sabra and Shatila is it so outlandish for Palestinian leadership to fear the worst based on the initial reports?

Irrelevant and as well it is important to point he was only indirectly responsible. I actually hate to have to defend Sharon


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 April 2004 12:08 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is not irrelvant at all from the perspective of the Palestinians, whatever you may think about Sharon it is greatly magnified in the mind of Palestinians and their leadership. Even if Sharon is only indirectly responsible for Sabra and Shatila (something I contest) this is not the way the Palestinians think about it.

If you set this history against the background of a Likud leadership that includes a number of people who actively espouse 'transfer' of the Palestinians, it is not suprising that many live in daily fear of a coming re-enactement of the Nakba.

  • Sharon has a history of being involved in massacres of refugees while in camp.
  • A military incursion (under the same overall leadership.)
  • Members of the Likud leadership call for tansfer.
  • A previous expulsion by the same agency in the past (the Nakba.)

In the light of these things is it really so 'off the wall' for Palestinians to jump to conclusions and immediatly call for international assistance against what from their perspective is a completely imminent possibility, when they have next to no verifiable information except for rumours about what is going on inside a camp sealed by the IDF (as Sabra and Shatila was.)

This is not to argue that there was, or was not a 'massacre.' It is show that the claim of a 'massacre' was not demonization, as it was based on what seem to be real potentials based on the history of the region, and the participants in the event, and the knowledge available at the time.

It has to be remembered that these events go on in real-time.

Would the Palestinian leadership not have been remiss if they did not talk in terms of a worst case scenario (such as massacre -- given Sharon's history,) if one had actually taken place? Given that they had next to no reliable information, they may have felt it was necessary to bring the strongest possible international preassure to bare in order to prevent one from taking place, and that required the strongest possible language entailing the worst-case scenario -- as an event, happening in the immediate.

[ 01 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 01 April 2004 10:29 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is not to argue that there was, or was not a 'massacre.' It is show that the claim of a 'massacre' was not demonization, as it was based on what seem to be real potentials based on the history of the region, and the participants in the event, and the knowledge available at the time.


Granting your point, it is my position that it is not the immediate reaction of the Palestinians that bothers me. No, it is the continual demonization and claims to this very day that the IDF committed a massacre in Jenin. That is unquestionably demonization. It is a lie and those who continue to spread this falsehood , to me, it is like spreading a blood libel...totally unconscionable.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 01 April 2004 10:46 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, you know, the Soviets did deny for the longest time that they committed a massacre in Katyn...
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 April 2004 11:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Granting your point, it is my position that it is not the immediate reaction of the Palestinians that bothers me. No, it is the continual demonization and claims to this very day that the IDF committed a massacre in Jenin. That is unquestionably demonization. It is a lie and those who continue to spread this falsehood , to me, it is like spreading a blood libel...totally unconscionable.

Who is this that is making this claim, Charles Krauthammer?

It would seem so, in the first link you provided in your Masscre hoax post number 1:

quote:
All this for a phantom massacre. Yet this same Middle East conflict yields no shortage of real massacres:

--April 27: Adora, Palestinian gunmen enter residential quarters shooting everyone, including a 5-year-old girl shot through the head in her bed;

--April 12: Jerusalem, suicide bombing at a bus stop, 6 murdered;

--April 10: Yagor, suicide bombing on a bus, 8 murdered;

--March 31: Haifa, suicide bombing in a restaurant, 15 murdered;

--March 28: Eilon Moreh, shooting attack, 4 murdered;

--March 27: Netanya, suicide bombing at a Passover seder, 28 murdered.

These are massacres--actual, recent massacres. Massacres for which the evidence is hard. Massacres for which the perpetrators claimed credit. Where was the Security Council? Where was the Kofi Annan commission? Where was the world?


If it is the case that Krautahammer can claim that six people killed at a bus stop is a massacre, then can the Palestinians not also claim that the 46 people the IDF admits were killed in Jenin, (as per the guardian article provided by Al Q,) were also massacred?

quote:
The Israeli army estimates of the dead have swung wildly from more than 200 last week to 46 this week. Palestinians say as many as 500 were killed in the camp .

Guardian

What is of course relvant then is the circumstances of their death. The fact that a suicide bombing is being construed as a war crime (I agree it is,) and that this makes these bombing massacres, then Jenin might be put in the light that Amnesty International report that concluded Israeli soldiers commited war crimes. Given that war crimes were being committed by the IDF, it is reasonable to assume that some of those 46 deaths occurred as a result of 'war crimes,' and that both the bombings and the actions of the IDF can be characterized as massacres.

quote:
In a report published today, Amnesty says Israeli forces were guilty of unlawful killings, torture and the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields. It says that among other "grave breaches" of international law were ill-treatment of prisoners, wanton destruction of hundreds of homes, sometimes with the residents still inside, and the blocking of medical help to the wounded.

Amnesty calls for arrest of Israelis for war crimes



Also this from HRW.

quote:
HRW, in its report of May 2002, details many instances where the Israeli forces committed serious violations of international law, "some of them amounting prima facie to war crimes." The report includes testimonies of victims and witnesses that were carefully corroborated and cross-checked for verification.

Often without warning, civilians found Israeli bulldozers crushing their homes while they were inside. HRW reports that soldiers refused to allow relatives to remove a paralyzed man, and bulldozed on top of him. An elderly man pleaded with a soldier to stop demolishing his home while his family was inside; when he returned he was shot dead. Helicopters fired anti-tank missiles into houses, and families trying to escape were shot at. HRW found that "the destruction extended well beyond any conceivable purpose of gaining access to fighters and was vastly disproportionate to the military objectives pursued."



The fact that Israel has been very reticent to allow some human rights agencies to investigate the scene, and that any investigation was delayed for weeks afterward and that international observers were not immedialty allowed entry into the camp when the PA made the claim that a massacre was taking place, will always detract from the credibility of the Israeli claim that no massacre took place at Jenin.

This is especially true given that people like Krautahmmer insist that as few as 6 Israeli deaths qualify as a massacre.

[ 01 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 April 2004 11:48 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't get it. Various reports say that between 42 and 60 Palestinians were killed (with lists of their names and the circumstances of their deaths) by the IOF at Jenin, and yet there are people who still deny, to this very day, that a massacre took place.

Why is that?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 April 2004 12:19 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A massacre did not take place. What took place was a battle in which armed militants fought the IDF and in which both armed militants and IDF soldiers were killed.

Yes there were tragically civilins killed as well and if these warrant charges they should be laid.

However the continual lie that a massacre took place as opposed to a bloody battle is terrorist propaganda. That some here continue to perpetuate this lie demonstrates that they will stop at nothing to demonize Israel.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 April 2004 12:46 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I'm certainly mishtified by all this.

Because I've related reports I've read that said civilians were gunned down in their homes in Jenin by IOF soldiers I become the subject of wild accusations.

Perhaps worse is to discover that babble is an organ for terrorist propaganda.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 April 2004 08:10 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However the continual lie that a massacre took place as opposed to a bloody battle is terrorist propaganda. That some here continue to perpetuate this lie demonstrates that they will stop at nothing to demonize Israel.

Wow, that's a new low. Calling Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International terrorist organizations. I can only assume that you are trying for a job in either the Bush or Ariel "the Butcher" Sharon governments when you use such loaded language.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 April 2004 08:12 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Because I've related reports I've read that said civilians were gunned down in their homes in Jenin by IOF soldiers I become the subject of wild accusations.


Now this poster's reading of "related reports" becomes proof of a massacre..


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 April 2004 08:26 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Read for comprehension, Macabee. He said he has related reports - with related being a verb. He related them.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Udo
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posted 02 April 2004 10:39 AM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Read for comprehension, Macabee. He said he has related reports - with related being a verb. He related them.
I read it in a similar fashion but surely it is easy to misunderstand.

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 April 2004 11:11 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Possibly. But it seems to me that if you're going to make a snarky comment about something someone has written, you could at least make sure that you've read it carefully.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Udo
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posted 02 April 2004 12:30 PM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Possibly. But it seems to me that if you're going to make a snarky comment about something someone has written, you could at least make sure that you've read it carefully.
Agreed but the more I read it the more I see how it was unfortunately written in such a way that one could easily have misinterpreted it. In fact he does say he has "related reports" that he has "read".

quote:
Because I've related reports I've read that said civilians were gunned down in their homes in Jenin by IOF soldiers I become the subject of wild accusations.



Any way it is a good lesson to be sure.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 April 2004 01:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It isn't Al Q. who is calling Jenin a massacre it is Charles Krauthammer. Al Q. is just using parameters inferred from Krautahmmer to measure the events a Jenin.

More than six people die in the act of comitting war crimes.

Now if you want to claim that 'some' people just happened to be in the way during a pitched battle, and some IDF people got a little out of hand because of the pressures of war. Other people can argue that the six people blown up at bus stop happened to be in the way during a pitched war, and some Hamas people got a little out of hand because of the pressures of war.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 02 April 2004 01:36 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The fact that Israel has been very reticent to allow some human rights agencies to investigate the scene, and that any investigation was delayed for weeks afterward and that international observers were not immedialty allowed entry into the camp when the PA made the claim that a massacre was taking place, will always detract from the credibility of the Israeli claim that no massacre took place at Jenin.
This is especially true given that people like Krautahmmer insist that as few as 6 Israeli deaths qualify as a massacre.

I haven't heard any Jenin deniers respond to this very sober point yet. I would be interested to hear them.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 April 2004 01:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not expecting a response. I have learned not to. Although one hopes.

In just such a vacuum of response 'the 1967 war and related' thread ground to a shuddering halt when the Israeli point of view was countered in an articulated and substantiated arguement.

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 02 April 2004 01:50 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I'm not expecting a response. I have learned not to. Although one hopes.

In just such a vacuum of response 'the 1967 war and related' thread ground to a shuddering halt when the Israeli point of view was countered in an articulated and substantiated arguement.

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


Some of us are getting a hell of an education anyway...much appreciated...


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 02 April 2004 01:56 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I actualy can see your point Cueball..whats good for the goose should be good for the gander. Perhaps the pro israel side fights when they hear Jenin refered to as a massacre is because it brings to mind the earlier disproven allegations of thousands of deaths, mass attrocities etc. Also lets not forget Jenin was by and large a firefight with "collateral damage" as opposed to the specific targetting of civilians.
From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 April 2004 02:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see that point, but hyperbolic extrapolation for the purposes of propganda is available to all sides in this conflict. But I think the term massacre can be appplied to as few as 6 people killed illegaly

I mean like what do we mean when we say The St. Valentines Day Massacre:

quote:
Capone had a gangster from Detroit set up a deal with Moran for a quantity of liquor that had been recently hijacked. Moran accepted the deal and arranged to take possession at a garage at 2122 North Clark Street on February 14th, 1929. Capone's friends from Detroit informed him of the arrangements and phase two of the plan went into effect. Capone's team acquired a police paddy wagon, either by theft or bribery, and police uniforms and proceeded to the garage on the morning of the 14th. Two of the hit team dressed in the police uniforms, the others wore long coats and presumably looked like the detectives of the group. They pulled up to the front of the garage and all charged out and in to the building just as the police would have in a routine raid. Inside the garage were six members of Moran's gang (the old O'Banion gang) - Adam Meyer, John May, James Clark, Al Weinshank, the Gusenburg brothers, Frank and Pete and an optometrist Dr. Reinhardt Schwimmer who picked a bad day to visit. The hit team had all seven men stand up and face the wall. The seven complied, expecting a pat down search for weapons and identification. Then two of Capone's men opened up with Thompson submachine guns, peppering each victim with numerous rounds from the .45 caliber weapon. The hoods disguised as cops then took the guns and marched the plain clothed gun men out of the garage with their hands raised as if they were under arrest. They all got into the police wagon and drove off.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 02 April 2004 02:08 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
'No Jenin massacre' says rights group
BBC article.

It appears that this is another attempt at proving WingNut's words of wisdom:

quote:
the bigger the lie the more believable and the more it is repeated the more it is believed

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: DavidB-D ]


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 April 2004 02:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know of course you have not read all of the thread, and are just popping in here to lay that esteemable piece of selective qouting, without having examined the rest of the discussion. Thank you very much for your "incite."

HRW has been wrong before.

Pray tell David, what is the scope and scale of massacre and how is it defined?

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 April 2004 02:44 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The report says there was no massacre as the Palestinians have claimed, but it does accuse the Israeli army of committing war crimes.

This is from the article our esteemed troll DBD posted. Those antisemite terrorists at HRW do accuse the IDF of war crimes. Talk about your selective quoting.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 02 April 2004 02:52 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The topic is massacre.
There was no massacre. Period.

War crimes? It's another topic.
As for labelling me a troll ... ha!


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 April 2004 02:58 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My topic has always been war crimes. I don't care about semantics, just justice. I also don't care that the other people in this thread are basically arguing semantics. There are two facts that comes out of the investigations at Jenin: there were clearly war crimes committed by the IDF, and they've thus far gone unpunished. Apparently because might makes right, or somesuch nonsense.

It's a well known fact that I only troll trolls.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 April 2004 03:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The topic is massacre.
There was no massacre. Period.
War crimes? It's another topic.

It doesn't seem that you have a working definition of massacre. Ergo you don't know what the term means. Therefore your assignation can be ignored. Do you usually repeat information and terms learned by rote, without an understanding of what the information or terms mean?

And as for war crimes, how many of the 'war crimes' that HRW identified have been investigated and prosecuted, as asked by Amnesty International.

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 02 April 2004 03:42 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's a well known fact that I only troll trolls.

So, you are a troll! Good heavens! What a surprise!

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 02 April 2004 03:59 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
mas·sa·cren. - The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.
v. - To kill indiscriminately and wantonly; slaughter.
war crime
n. - Any of various crimes, such as genocide or the mistreatment of prisoners of war, committed during a war and considered in violation of the conventions of warfare.
Dictionary.com

From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 April 2004 04:07 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Me - I only troll trolls.

DBD - So you are a troll!


Draw your own conclusions, people.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Udo
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posted 02 April 2004 05:28 PM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.
v. - To kill indiscriminately and wantonly; slaughter.

So Krauthammer was more than right...suicide bombings are without doubt "massacres"

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 02 April 2004 05:32 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As is bulldozing houses with people in them or shooting to kill into crowds of kids who are throwing rocks.

Not much shocks me anymore about the Middle East but I WAS shocked to learn that Israel has bulldozed more than 80,000 Palestinian homes in the occupied territories since 2000.

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: Non-partisan partisan ]


From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 April 2004 07:04 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Non-partisan partisan:
As is bulldozing houses with people in them or shooting to kill into crowds of kids who are throwing rocks.

Not much shocks me anymore about the Middle East but I WAS shocked to learn that Israel has bulldozed more than 80,000 Palestinian homes in the occupied territories since 2000.

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: Non-partisan partisan ]


These are tragic (if indeed they happened ...there is context to everything even tragic events)but by definition not massacres. Homicide bombings are massacres by everyone's definition.

BTW, in many cases when the IDF has used lethal force it was as a result of the fact that amongst the stone thowers were terrorists gunners. As usual hiding behind their children throwing stones. A sad and tragic dilemna of war.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 April 2004 07:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BTW, in many cases when the IDF has used lethal force it was as a result of the fact that amongst the stone thowers were terrorists gunners. As usual hiding behind their children throwing stones. A sad and tragic dilemna of war.


Give me a break. These kind of comic book bad guy characterizations are border line racist and an insult to the intelligence of everyone on the board.

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 April 2004 07:18 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If one were to look at differences in the positions here, unlike MacUdo's stance on the crimes committed by the IOF in Jenin, nobody is denying that multiple people killed by a suicide bombing can be interpreted as a massacre.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 02 April 2004 09:05 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
These are tragic (if indeed they happened ...there is context to everything even tragic events)but by definition not massacres. Homicide bombings are massacres by everyone's definition.

Jesus Frickin' Christ, you can't quit trying to qualify anything if it has to do with Israeli IDF actions, can you?

If I told you that the IDF made the moon go dark, you'd say "if it indeed happened" even if you just stuck your head out the window to see if the moon disappeared.

Bulldozers aren't microscopic minuscule things you can't see and might miss. They're big, they're there and they're downright impossible to miss. You don't think any idiot could stand there and count the number of dwellings bulldozed in a period of time and then aggregate the data?

It'd be like you telling me I don't know how to stick my head out the window and see the blindingly obvious.

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 April 2004 09:21 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:


It'd be like you telling me I don't know how to stick my head out the window and see the blindingly obvious.

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


Yes...and as for the "border line racist" accusation..what nonsense. Is that the best bully-like attack you can come up with? I guess the fact that Hamas terrorists use innocent children all the time has slipped your mind. The incident last week with the 14 year old boy-bomber was just one of those propaganda ploys by Israel huh?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 April 2004 11:36 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I guess the fact that Hamas terrorists use innocent children all the time has slipped your mind. The incident last week with the 14 year old boy-bomber was just one of those propaganda ploys by Israel huh?

This doesn't address what Dr. Conway said. You're just flailing about, throwing out words in the vain hope that someone will think you make sense.

Nevertheless I don't mind, as you make your own position look worse. It's funny, though, in a pathetic abuse of rhetoric sorta way.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 03 April 2004 12:50 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes...and as for the "border line racist" accusation..what nonsense. Is that the best bully-like attack you can come up with? I guess the fact that Hamas terrorists use innocent children all the time has slipped your mind. The incident last week with the 14 year old boy-bomber was just one of those propaganda ploys by Israel huh?

I'm not interested in bullying you. I am interested in verifiable information. The things we are discussing in the context of Jenin, are verifiable within a measure of variability and interpretation. Just throwing out that Palestinian gunmen are "as usual hiding behind their children throwing stones," is spurious and unverifiable. It is a blanket statement that unfairly characterizes Palestinians as imoral, and you have done it without even a shred of evidence.

There is no evidence to suggest that the incident with the 14 year old boy (who is actually 16 BTW) was anything other than abberant behaviour of individuals within the Palestinian populous, if we have the whole story as parlayed by the IDF.

To extrapolate that into a blanket statement qualified as usual behaviour is totaly without foundation. It is on the level of racist characterizations of 'Jews as being miserly as usual,' etc, because some Jewish people happen to mange succesful banking institutions, or succesful businesses.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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Babbler # 4572

posted 03 April 2004 01:38 AM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just throwing out that Palestinian gunmen are "as usual hiding behind their children throwing stones," is spurious and unverifiable. It is a blanket statement that unfairly characterizes Palestinians as imoral, and you have done it without even a shred of evidence.

Holy shithead! The clueless screwball playing Comical Ali!
References to Palestinian-gunmen are not references to Palestinians. Palestinian-gunmen are terrorists. Terrorists. Terrorists. Immoral cowards who hide behind human shields. They are worse than lice. Screw them.

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 03 April 2004 02:20 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Immoral cowards who hide behind human shields.

"Human shields?"Isn't that one of the charges leveld by Amnesty against Israeli forces in Jenin? Does that make the IDF "immoral cowards" as well?

Can I suggest some windex ao that you can clean the spittle and bial of your screen...

[ 03 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 03 April 2004 10:23 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

I'm not interested in bullying you. I am interested in verifiable information. The things we are discussing in the context of Jenin, are verifiable within a measure of variability and interpretation. Just throwing out that Palestinian gunmen are "as usual hiding behind their children throwing stones," is spurious and unverifiable. It is a blanket statement that unfairly characterizes Palestinians as imoral, and you have done it without even a shred of evidence.

There is no evidence to suggest that the incident with the 14 year old boy (who is actually 16 BTW) was anything other than abberant behaviour of individuals within the Palestinian populous, if we have the whole story as parlayed by the IDF.

To extrapolate that into a blanket statement qualified as usual behaviour is totaly without foundation. It is on the level of racist characterizations of 'Jews as being miserly as usual,' etc, because some Jewish people happen to mange succesful banking institutions, or succesful businesses.


Funny I never once mentioned "Palestinian". You are the one who is pointing his finger at Palestinians. I believe the vast majority of Palestinians as Israelis long for peace. Hamas terrorists like their counterparts on the extreme right in Israel and their pals are a different story. These are extremists who will stop at nothing for their nationalistic dreams.

I would urge you not to stereotype entire populations as you have done.

[ 03 April 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 April 2004 11:24 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I would urge you not to stereotype entire populations as you have done.

Another gag!

Because cueball quoted "Palestinian" gunmen where you said "terrorist" gunment, he's stereotyping an entire population?

Someone could take the same sort of line on this exchange, reverse it, and say your refusal to use the word "Palestinian" is an example of an historical tendency for Zionists to deny the existence of the Palestinian people.

One might argue that you sound not unlike Israel's next PM, Benny Netanyahoo, who said he'd never allow the cretion of a "terrorist" (what cueball in his innocence calls "Palestinian") state in the West Bank and Gaza.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 03 April 2004 01:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The fact that Israel has been very reticent to allow some human rights agencies to investigate the scene, and that any investigation was delayed for weeks afterward and that international observers were not immedialty allowed entry into the camp when the PA made the claim that a massacre was taking place, will always detract from the credibility of the Israeli claim that no massacre took place at Jenin.
This is especially true given that people like Krautahmmer insist that as few as 6 Israeli deaths qualify as a massacre.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 03 April 2004 01:44 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Another gag!

Because cueball quoted "Palestinian" gunmen where you said "terrorist" gunment, he's stereotyping an entire population?

Someone could take the same sort of line on this exchange, reverse it, and say your refusal to use the word "Palestinian" is an example of an historical tendency for Zionists to deny the existence of the Palestinian people.


As you may note from my post I did not refuse to use the word "Palestinian".


quote:
Funny I never once mentioned "Palestinian". You are the one who is pointing his finger at Palestinians. I believe the vast majority of Palestinians as Israelis long for peace. Hamas terrorists like their counterparts on the extreme right in Israel and their pals are a different story. These are extremists who will stop at nothing for their nationalistic dreams.
I do Unlike both you and cueball refuse to use the word "Palestinian" as an adjective to describe terrorists. I fully understand your sad need to paint any supporter of Israel as someone who hates all Palestinians. However anyone who can read will see it for the falsehood it is (if they choose).

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 03 April 2004 05:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My problem with the post that I took exception to was not that you characterization all Palestinians as engaging in imoral behaviour, but the characterization of all Palestinian armed militants as engaging in imoral behaviour. Turned around, if I were to infer that because some IDF soldiers used human shields, all IDF soldiers are engage in imoral behaviour. Such is a blanket condemnation and a stereotype. Making such blanket condemnations smacks of racist stereotyping.

For instance: "Jewish soldiers are baby eaters," is racist. Do you see what I am saying?

[ 03 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 03 April 2004 07:05 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
My problem with the post that I took exception to was not that you characterization all Palestinians as engaging in imoral behaviour, but the characterization of all Palestinian armed militants as engaging in imoral behaviour. Turned around, if I were to infer that because some IDF soldiers used human shields, all IDF soldiers are engage in imoral behaviour. Such is a blanket condemnation and a stereotype. Making such blanket condemnations smacks of racist stereotyping.

For instance: "Jewish soldiers are baby eaters," is racist. Do you see what I am saying?

[ 03 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


So are you saying that on babble you would prefer that we call terrorists "Palestinian Terrorists" as opposed to the terrorist group from which they come ie Hamas, Al Aksa etc?

I still feel that using Palestinian as an adjective before "terrorist" is far more racist than whatever convoluted message you are trying to post here.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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Babbler # 3308

posted 04 April 2004 05:47 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maccabee--nice dodge, weave, duck.
Do you or do you not have concrete evidence that "gunmen" in the Occupied Territories (who may or may not be Palestinian, apparently--what are they, Nepalese?) use local (possibly Argentinian?) children as human shields as a standard tactic?
If you do not have such evidence, then your statement was both wild and inflammatory. If you do, best you produce it, to avoid the perception that your statement was wild and inflammatory.

As to David B-D, let's point something out: Suicide bombers are terrorists. However, they generally have explosive vests, not guns. Having a gun would risk drawing attention to the vest. The guys with guns fighting the IDF in territories illegally occupied by the IDF are *not* terrorists, they are resistance fighters whose actions are completely legal under international law. Which is more than can be said for anything either the IDF or the settlers do in the occupied territories because their mere presence is illegal.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 April 2004 09:56 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rufus while I have no trouble obliging your request I am somewhat convinced that no matter what proof I offer you will find some critique or 10 about it. Nonetheless with that concern aside :

Hams et al use of children as Human shields

more

and one more

All this stated there are times when the IDF has also used Palestinians as Human shields. I deplore this policy as well. I have however not found evidence that IDF use children as shields during live gun fights. However this in no way mitigates my revulsion at any use of innocent people as human shields.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 04 April 2004 04:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the links.

quote:
So are you saying that on babble you would prefer that we call terrorists "Palestinian Terrorists" as opposed to the terrorist group from which they come ie Hamas, Al Aksa etc?

I am saying that I would prefer no sweeping generalizations at all, and fact based discussion, phrases like "as usual.' Again, thanks for the links, and the explanation. perhaps you will be interested in this one:

A sudden concern for the Palestinian child

quote:
Suddenly, Israelis are worried about the bitter fate of a Palestinian child. To judge by the public shock over Hussam Bilal Abdu, who was caught wearing an explosives belt at the Hawara checkpoint, it would seem that nothing of a humane nature is foreign to us, even when it pertains to an enemy and his children. But this is an infuriating show of concern. The fate of a Palestinian child only touches us when it suits us, when it serves our purposes and when our hands are not involved.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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