babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Palestinian boy, 14, got NIS 100 to blow up at IDF roadblock

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Palestinian boy, 14, got NIS 100 to blow up at IDF roadblock
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 25 March 2004 06:50 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
link

quote:
Abdu's mother voiced astonishment at the incident.

"Hussam left home this morning to school, and this was the first we hear of what happened," Tamam Abdu told Reuters from the family home in Nablus, just north of Hawara. "This is shocking. To use a child like this is irresponsible, forbidden."



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tolok
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4934

posted 25 March 2004 07:26 AM      Profile for Tolok        Edit/Delete Post
Looks like the poor kid is going to have to wait for the 72 virgins; they are otherwise occupied entertaining the heroic Yassin.

I can only hope there are enough virgins to service the Bastards who gave the kid the bomb, after the IDF blows them to hell.


From: Out of Ontario | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 25 March 2004 08:44 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, that's pretty despicable, all right, to use a 14 year-old like that.

I'm curious though, Tolok - if it had been an adult instead of a child, would you still be this angry about it? After all, it wouldn't be a civilian target, right? Is it the age of the bomber that outrages you, or do you think that IOF soldiers shouldn't be targeted at all?

My opinion on this is that I'd like to see some of these cowards who give kids and teenagers bombs to blow themselves up to bite the bullet and do it themselves. You want to go out in a flame of glory by blowing up some IOF soldiers? I don't like it, because I don't like any war or killing, but in this case, Palestinians are being persecuted, so fair enough, soldiers are legitimate targets in a war. But for Christ's sake, do it with adults, not children. That's disgusting.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 25 March 2004 10:14 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tolok. Check yourself, or you're gonna be gone.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2004 10:21 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He said that he had been bullied at school for his poor academic performance and that he had wanted "to be a hero."

It is not just a matter of who is a legitimate target. The violence will not get us very far. Israel does have to leave the West Bank and Gaza and ensure the Palestinians a viable state but it is also absolutely essential that this bullying and education of hate and glory in death end. This boy didn't get it from nowhere there is a despicable system of hate and glory in death this in not Israel's fault. This is the fault of the Palestinian leadership it most stop it or Palestinian children will lose there innocents and many more will die. It's hard to have a childhood when you're surrounded by soldiers the Israeli kids know this too but it's even harder when you're being bullied by your own people and forced to do things that most sane people would never think of doing.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tolok
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4934

posted 25 March 2004 10:44 AM      Profile for Tolok        Edit/Delete Post
Thank you Michelle, for that clear endorsement of suicide/homicide bombing.
From: Out of Ontario | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 25 March 2004 10:45 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Blow me, Tolok.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 25 March 2004 10:49 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bye, Tolok.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 25 March 2004 10:56 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is not just a matter of who is a legitimate target. The violence will not get us very far.

It's true that violence will not get us anywhere at all. However, I will quibble with your first sentence - the matter of who is a legitimate target IS important. Because this is the Israeli justification for all the Palestinian civilians the IOF kills - "Oh, they weren't the TARGET. We were going for legitimate targets and regrettably some civilians got in the way." It seems that the only time there is no such thing as a legitimate target is when the Palestinians target IOF soldiers.

I think suicide bombing civilians and targeting them specifically is horrible. However, if Israel is going to claim that they have the moral high ground when they bomb militants, then they can't whine when suicide bombers target Israeli soldiers.

I personally would rather see nobody get killed and nobody bombed. But that wouldn't suit Ariel Sharon at all, which is why he constantly provokes Palestinians whenever things get too quiet for his liking - after all, a terrified Israeli public means votes in his pocket.

quote:
Israel does have to leave the West Bank and Gaza and ensure the Palestinians a viable state but it is also absolutely essential that this bullying and education of hate and glory in death end.

Definitely something we agree on. Both sides need to give. However, Israel needs to give FIRST, because they're the occupiers and the Palestinians are the downtrodden.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
charlessumner
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2914

posted 25 March 2004 11:00 AM      Profile for charlessumner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Google terms related to cowardice and child suicide bombers and I'm sure you'll find tons of right-wing sites making much the same argument Michelle makes here (on biting the bullet).

[ 25 March 2004: Message edited by: charlessumner ]


From: closer everyday | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2004 11:32 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's true that violence will not get us anywhere at all. However, I will quibble with your first sentence - the matter of who is a legitimate target IS important. Because this is the Israeli justification for all the Palestinian civilians the IOF kills - "Oh, they weren't the TARGET. We were going for legitimate targets and regrettably some civilians got in the way." It seems that the only time there is no such thing as a legitimate target is when the Palestinians target IOF soldiers.

I hate to say this but yes soldiers and militants with guns are legitimate targets.
But before you go and demonize the Israeli forces. I think this story more then any other shows the extraordinary lengths the IDF soldiers go to save lives.

quote:
Sappers used a remote-controlled robot to pass scissors to the boy, Hussam Abdu from Nablus, so that he could cut the explosive belt off his body, and then safely detonated it in a controlled explosion.

quote:
They ordered him to take off his jersey, revealing a large gray bomb vest underneath. "He told us he didn't want to die. He didn't want to blow up," the officer said.

The soldiers then sent the robot to hand the scissors to the boy. He cut off part of the vest and struggled with the rest. "I don't how to get this off," Abdu called to the soldiers.

After he dropped the vest, soldiers ordered him to take off his undershirt and jeans, to ensure he had no other weapons on him.


and another issue

quote:
Definitely something we agree on. Both sides need to give. However, Israel needs to give FIRST, because they're the occupiers and the Palestinians are the downtrodden.

I find the "who first argument"really, really, really childish both sides have to take immediate action over their responsibilities. Violence on both sides can not be used in order to make political gains. If the violence doesn't stop immediately people will think it is legitimate to use in order to make political gains.

I can not make the presence of Israeli forces in the West Bank and Gaza legitimate and under no way make suicide bombing legitimate. If you make this sort of violence legitimate there is no way in the world that anyone can be safe or that violence will ever end.

[ 25 March 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 25 March 2004 11:54 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I hate to say this but yes soldiers and militants with guns are legitimate targets.
But before you go and demonize the Israeli forces. I think this story more then any other shows the extraordinary lengths the IDF soldiers go to save lives.

I hate to say this but I have also seen frame by frame footage of Israeli soldiers shooting a subdued Palestinian, who was for all intents and puropses under arrest. This of course in no way blemishes the acts of these soldiers, acting in the case of the thread topic.

It should also be noted that in the incident I am referring to, the IDF soldiers were not aware that they were being filmed, in this one they were.

Incidentally here is mom:

Also, the latest reports say that he is 16 not 14.

[ 25 March 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2004 12:20 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I hate to say this but I have also seen frame by frame footage of Israeli soldiers shooting a subdued Palestinian, who was for all intents and puropses under arrest. This of course in no way blemishes the acts of these soldiers, acting in the case of the thread topic.
It should also be noted that in the incident I am referring to, the IDF soldiers were not aware that they were being filmed, in this one they were.

I won't deny that it happens. There are cases when soldiers act inhumanely but I don't believe in fact I am pretty sure it doesn't happen as often as some people would like the world to believe. Yes the IDF has to take more measures to make sure these acts don't happen. The best one would of course be exiting the Gaza strip and west bank. Yet demonizing and trying to convince the world that the majority of Israeli soldiers act like that is hateful in itself and only servers to incite more hate.

This event happened at York last week I find that the actions of both sides were despicable.


Welcome to York ‘You’re dead!’



York students clash at protest

quote:
Lisa Schofield, a member of the pro-Palestinian group, said they were "not trying to be confrontational."

If Schofield thinks she is not trying to be confrontational why is she associating herself with people who dress up as soldiers with born to kill on their helmets? Pretending to be IDF soldiers point there guns at innocent women. "Happens every day" Right???
I may not be able to call this racist or anti-Semitic but its clearly discriminatory and a Nazification and dehumanization of the IDF. There is absolutely no comparison and make one only servers to incite more hate and violence. It does not add to peoples broader understanding of the issue.
By point systematically highlighting these uncommon incidents you end up being discriminatory and inciting more hate.

[ 25 March 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2004 12:26 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
solution

Project like this that humanize both peoples

Promises


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 25 March 2004 01:45 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice:
quote:
Pretending to be IDF soldiers point there guns at innocent women. "Happens every day" Right???

Actually, yes.

You see, every day in Palestine, Palestinian women must cross Israeli checkpoints. They are stopped, searched, checked for weapons, and guns are pointed at them. They can be as far from the Green Line as is humanly possible, and still they can be stopped on the way to their mother's, to the next town, to the hospital.

This does happen every day. I've seen it.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2004 02:46 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well I've been there too. I was even guarding the line myself for a couple days back in 98. I must admit it was much different then.
And if it does happen I can say the often sometimes it is justifiable. There have been cases where terrorist have dressed up as pregnant women or used ambulances to commit attacks inside Israel.

The real sadness is cases like this it makes it even more difficult to distinguish militant from none militant such is not the case in israel you can see who is whereing a uniform usually unless its some mad settler.

Forced Female Suicide

quote:
Most recently, the case of Reem al-Riyashi suggests a similar and horrifying scenario. Several Israeli sources have discovered that this young mother of two very young children "was forced to carry out the suicide attack as punishment for cheating on her husband." Allegedly, al-Riyashi's husband was a Hamas activist and her lover was a Hamas operative who had carried out the love affair with the express purpose of recruiting her. According to the British Sunday Times, al-Riyashi's husband himself drove her to the border crossing.

and here are over 20,000 other good reasons

Total of Attacks in the West Bank ,Gaza Strip and Home Front Since September 2000

Point is if I were too constantly focus on this people would think that all Palestinians are terrorists. Just as the use of terms such IOF demonize and makes everybody think the IDF has no morale backbone.

It would cause incidents like this

Rash of hate crimes in 2003-2004

The Jews as we all suffered there own rash of hate crimes as well I don't think I need any links to back that up.

The point is the first step we must do is stop taking sides. Instead of taking sides is to stop demonizing each other and to start humanizing. The situation is not black and there is no such thing as pure evil or pure good. We're human beings not angles or devils.

[ 25 March 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
o
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4435

posted 25 March 2004 03:07 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice wrote "I was even guarding the line myself for a couple days back in 98."

Right on man. God bless people like you who put your lives on the line to keep the innocents safe.


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2004 03:16 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey o don't glorify it I just did what I had to as an israeli citizen.

Don't be like the radicals there is no glory in death or killing.

[ 25 March 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
o
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4435

posted 25 March 2004 03:41 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not trying to glorify it, just let you know that there are people out there who appreciate the sacrifices that you made.
From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2004 03:44 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ok fine
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 25 March 2004 03:47 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think you miss the point on the "first" thing. The Palestinians cannot un-occupy anything because they aren't occupying anything. Israel is. Only Israel can end the occupation. Only ending the occupation can stop the violence.

Ergo, Israel has to act first by ending the occupation. Palestinians cannot do that.

This is made especially clear, given that the "Palestinians stopping the violence" solution was tried roughly from 1994 to 1998, and so Palestinians have graphic proof that just because they stop the violence does not mean the IDF will stop killing people, does not mean settlements will stop expanding, does not mean Palestinian farms and homes will stop being bulldozed, does not mean checkpoints will go away. All that stuff kept on happening while the Palestinians were quiet. For the Palestinians to be quiet again, I think Israel's gonna have to put their money where their mouth is.

Meanwhile, if the kid was sixteen, whatever. I'm sorry to sound cold-blooded, but in a brutalized society like the West Bank, sixteen's effectively adult. Israel seems to agree--they jail and torture enough sixteen year olds. Israel has in many ways forced a reversion to the dark ages in Gaza and the West Bank, back to times of history where at sixteen you were already a warrior. So now if they get teenagers trying to kill them, maybe it's a hint that they should leave those teenagers a bit more room to have something to live for.

Finally, I hate to say it but often violence does accomplish things. And when you have an oppressor who is violent, who dehumanizes you, and who gains advantage from your continued oppression, violence can be the only way to make a change. Waiting for them to get around to realizing they should be nice will not work. Nonviolent resistance will only work under certain circumstances, such as the oppressor not being sufficiently ruthless to just mow down the resistors with machine guns and whatnot. Some freedom to move and assemble helps as well. Israel seems quite ruthless enough, although I'm sure many individual soldiers would cry afterwards.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2004 04:58 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Finally, I hate to say it but often violence does accomplish things.

this is sic

quote:
This is made especially clear, given that the "Palestinians stopping the violence" solution was tried roughly from 1994 to 1998, and so Palestinians have graphic proof that just because they stop the violence does not mean the IDF will stop killing people, does not mean settlements will stop expanding, does not mean Palestinian farms and homes will stop being bulldozed, does not mean checkpoints will go away. All that stuff kept on happening while the Palestinians were quiet. For the Palestinians to be quiet again, I think Israel's gonna have to put their money where their mouth is.

There is also graphic proof they were not exactly quiet. furthermore there was an opportunity to end this in 2000 it may have not been a great deal but I think the idea that they could use violence to gain more was proven very, very, very worng then end up getting Sharon instead of Barak. Horray for violence!!!

quote:
Meanwhile, if the kid was sixteen, whatever. I'm sorry to sound cold-blooded, but in a brutalized society like the West Bank, sixteen's effectively adult. Israel seems to agree--they jail and torture enough sixteen year olds. Israel has in many ways forced a reversion to the dark ages in Gaza and the West Bank, back to times of history where at sixteen you were already a warrior. So now if they get teenagers trying to kill them, maybe it's a hint that they should leave those teenagers a bit more room to have something to live for.

I've already proved above that Israel is not solely responsible for turning Palestinian women and children into suicide bombers Palestinians have much to be responsible for too. If we continue this mutual dehumanization we will only breed more violence

One again from this specific case

quote:
He said that he had been bullied at school for his poor academic performance and that he had wanted "to be a hero."


quote:
such as the oppressor not being sufficiently ruthless to just mow down the resistors with machine guns and whatnot.

Mow down. Mow down is what the Nazi's did to Jews in Russian and end up kill 1.5 million of them this in no way comes close. STOP THIS DEHUMANIZATION

Finally I'm very heartened to hear that many disagree with you. Many Palestinians seem to agree that violence is not the way.
Check this thread out


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 25 March 2004 04:59 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice:

quote:
Point is if I were too constantly focus on this people would think that all Palestinians are terrorists.

If you were to focus on this without displaying a similar shock and horror at IOF (wait for it, we'll get there) actions then yes, damn right you would be accused of racism.

On this board, as on most others of this 'slant', it is almost impossible to find anyone who justifies terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. When such a person arises, we jump to condemn them. The same cannot be said about the partisans of Israel on this board or many others; too many are willing to justify every IOF (again, wait for it) action.

quote:
Just as the use of terms such IOF demonize and makes everybody think the IDF has no morale backbone.
Using the term IOF does not demonize; it clarifies. I differentiate between Israeli military actions of legitimate defense within Israeli borders, and illegitimate occupation within the OTs; the former is IDF, the latter is IOF. They pursue two different goals. Occupation is not Defence, period.

And the IOF has no moral backbone. Some Israeli soldiers do, assuredly. Even perhaps some officers. I know Israeli whom I would consider among the most moral people I have ever met, as they have looked beyond tribalism and seek to aid the people their government is brutalizing. But to suggest that the occupation is being handled in a moral manner is to misunderstand both 'occupation' and 'morality'.

quote:
The point is the first step we must do is stop taking sides. Instead of taking sides is to stop demonizing each other and to start humanizing. The situation is not black and there is no such thing as pure evil or pure good. We're human beings not angles or devils.
Taking sides is essential. I have chosen mine: I am against occupation and colonialism. I am not for Palestinians and against Israelis, for Iraqis and against Americans, for Tibetans and against Chinese: I am for the right of self-determination and against the occupation of a sovereign people.

To oppose the Occupation is not to be opposed to Israelis or Jews. It is to be for them. There is no black and white? Maybe not. And I agree we have to humanize. But that cannot take place under a context of gruelling, humiliating, and intrinsically de-humanizing occupation.

If you want peace for your people, the people you have defended, it is time to recognize that the Occupation is the greatest barrier to peace that we face.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 25 March 2004 09:01 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is the whole story a lie?

quote:
The armed wing of Fatah, the Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, has denied any involvement in the incident, accusing Israel of "concocting the whole story for the purpose of justifying the killing of more Palestinian children".

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 25 March 2004 11:50 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you want peace for your people, the people you have defended, it is time to recognize that the Occupation is the greatest barrier to peace that we face.

I've acknowledge many times that it is a barrier as do many Israeli's and perhaps even Sharon is beginning to understand but the end of occupation certainly will not solve the socioeconomic problems in the west and Gaza much of which the large parts of the Palestinian population are responsible for.

I will further acknowledge and support the goal of the pilots and soldiers from elite units that refuse to serve in the west bank and Gaza although I do have a little bit of a problem with the way the expressed themselves. The conscious objectors should have a right to choose not serve but I still they should do some sort of service for their country perhaps as paramedics for the Red star of David or police officers there are other options open to them they do not have to fight are support any military actions.

quote:
On this board, as on most others of this 'slant', it is almost impossible to find anyone who justifies terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. When such a person arises, we jump to condemn them. The same cannot be said about the partisans of Israel on this board or many others; too many are willing to justify every IOF (again, wait for it) action.

There are many apologists for terrorism out there who rub it off as desperation. This maybe partially true but you also have to look at the examples I showed you and ask yourself really where is the desperation coming from? And who is adding to its prolongation.


As far as the story that al-Qa'bong brought us goes I won't believe it until some sort of independent humanitarian organization has confirmed it like amnesty or HRW. Past evedince shows that this is not beyond some Palistinian militant factions. Well on the other hand A hoax like this has never been done by Israeli forces


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 26 March 2004 07:04 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As far as the story that al-Qa'bong brought us goes I won't believe it until some sort of independent humanitarian organization has confirmed it like amnesty or HRW. Past evedince shows that this is not beyond some Palistinian militant factions. Well on the other hand A hoax like this has never been done by Israeli forces

But this is the problem, you accept at face value any story (even rumours) that focus light on Palestinian immorality and degeneration, and then ask for independent verification of stories that contradict that version or point to Israeli immorality and degeneration.

Your bias is obvious.

Your bias is in contrast to this Palestinian commentators:

quote:
Samir Khiwairah, a Nablus journalist who personally knows the boy’s family, told Aljazeera.net that the boy’s mental capacity to distinguish things is very low.

"I don't completely rule out the possibility that some evil person gave him the explosive belt and told him he would become a hero ... but this is a very tiny possibility."

He accepts the possibility that it is true. You don't even consider the possibility that it is a lie.

[ 26 March 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 26 March 2004 07:26 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mrs. Abdo, in a view echoed by many others, made clear that she opposed only those suicide attacks carried out by under age bombers. "Maybe if he is 20, then perhaps I could understand," she said of her own son. "At that age, they know what they are doing, they are fighting for their homeland."

She added: "We are living in a big jail, and some people are pushed to do this. We don't have any other means to defend ourselves."


NY times

[ 26 March 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 26 March 2004 11:28 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He accepts the possibility that it is true. You don't even consider the possibility that it is a lie.

I said

quote:
I won't believe it until


Meaning there is a slim chance.

Lets start from innocent until proven guilty in this case it's not just a matter of innocent until proven guilty it's a matter of putting the guilt on someone else. You can also try and give me another possibility.

I have considered past evidence that it is possible there are a lot of examples a Palestinian radical militants recruiting children they push them out the street 2 through stones and the age of suicide bombers is going down and down there have been already a couple cases of 17 year olds.

I'm saying this because your theory here is not just a matter of the radical Palestinian militant groups didn't do it which there plenty of them so maybe some of them could say no its also the fact that aljezeera's story or theory sound a little far fetched. Offer me another possibility and I may be more inclined to believe.

Its not bias that has is convincing me it history.

Further more the mother said he was naïve and she would have stopped him had she known. Meaning he could be coerced either way.

And the fact that the media was there perhaps the soldiers acted with a little more care but set up a hoax common. The point is in this case the IDF record is clean it's never used hoaxes to improve its image. Although I will admit it may have denied incidents in the past. But must reiterate my many and strongest premise radical Palestinian groups are recruiting younger and younger people to do all sorts of work so this is not beyond them.


And of course it is in the interest now for the Palestinian radical militant organizations to say they didn't do it because it looks bad in the media.

quote:
Khiwairah said the Israeli army had a history of "fabricating and concocting stories" for the purpose of vilifying the Palestinians and winning public relations points.

He said this back it up I want to see the evidence.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 26 March 2004 11:32 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And of course it is in the interest now for the Palestinian radical militant organizations to say they didn't do it because it looks bad in the media.

And isn't that the best reason to stage it?

I don't think we should believe either side. Truth is already the first victim.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 26 March 2004 11:51 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fine agreed turth is always the first victim. but what are the other possibilities?

I'm obviously scared of certain suggestions like the one the "the Jews committed September 11th" that is blatantly anti-Semitic.

On the other hand if your following the 9/11 of inquires now I do believe Dick Clarke there were certainly more pressing issues to deal with an Bush really had his priorities screwed up.

[ 26 March 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 26 March 2004 11:56 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And isn't that the best reason to stage it?

No the risk of exposure is too high with today's media and technologies. I don't think Israeli forces are that dumb and that exposure would cause an all time low on the issue of who has more morality.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
praenomen3
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4758

posted 26 March 2004 12:04 PM      Profile for praenomen3        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Is the whole story a lie?


That darned Fatah! What will they say next? First they get their affiliate to claim responsibility, then withdraw it in the face of the backlash, and now the whole thing's just another fiendish Zionist conspiracy.


From: x | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 26 March 2004 01:30 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Kinda weird that Justice finds my point that violence does accomplish things to be sick. Look, I don't like it but it's clearly true.

Let's face it, the state of Israel was created almost entirely by violence. Without violence it would not exist. And for better or for worse, nearly all proposed remedies to the Palestinian situation do not involve the removal of Israel. So no matter how things work out, violence will have successfully created the state of Israel. Similar things are true if not more so for Canada and the United States vis-a-vis first nations.

Both Justice and I depend for our homes on the fact that violence accomplishes things. It is too late to erase this fact; all we can do is make some amends. In Canada, this means ceasing to constantly jack the bands around over land claims etc.; in Israel, it means, at a minimum, ceasing the occupation as soon as possible. I mean, realistically Israel owes huge war reparations as well, for the millions upon millions of dollars worth of destruction, much of it, realistically, completely unfixable. Actual justice, Justice, would demand that they replant all the olive groves they uprooted and then pay the olive farmers a living wage for the decades until the olive groves are productive again.

And yet all anyone normally asks is that they pull out of someone else's land and stop shooting people, and Israelis always seem to think this is utterly unreasonable. It's not unreasonable, it's *way* less than real Justice would involve.

On the other hand, if they're not willing to at least pull out, then Israelis have a hell of a lot of nerve complaining about people using violence to accomplish their objectives. Hello! Troops, helicopter gunships, tanks, missiles, bulldozers! It's called violence, and you're using it to accomplish your objectives! You cannot occupy someone militarily and then complain that they're using violence. People who object to the occupation can also object to violent means of trying to end it without self-contradiction. Someone who supports the occupation, or doesn't exactly support it but claims there's no real choice but to continue under the circumstances, thus validating the tactic, is an utter hypocrite if they complain about violence being used to oppose it. If you really think violence is futile and wrong, then pull out. If the Palestinians continue terrorism afterwards, then by the yardstick you proclaim you should stop them through nonviolent protest at their actions.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 26 March 2004 01:51 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First I don't support the occupation but as I showed you the violence against it didn't help in the long run.

Second if you want to talk about reparations I think the Israelis deserve a lot of compensation too. 100'000's kicked out of other places in the mid-east and north Africa.

And then there are the one that ran away from Europe in the 20th century.


My grandmother came from Russia to Israel in the 1920's after her father was murdered in a pogrom she came and lived in tent on a beach that later became known as Tel-aviv. In the beginning of 20th century Jews started to settle outside the walls of Jerusalem they didn't steal any land there and yet they were attacked. 1000's died from malaria trying to settle the uninhabited parts of the Galilee. I'm not saying the Jews never committed any crime but lets put things into perspective.

And me a large portion of my life a live in a little settlement call a moshav in the middle of the Negev dessert between Eilat and Beersheba aside from Nabateans which may have crossed there 2000 years ago nobody lived there.

Yup violence did built the state of Israel German and Russian violence and the like some Arab violence too. Violence against Jews built it.

[ 26 March 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 26 March 2004 02:18 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No the risk of exposure is too high with today's media and technologies. I don't think Israeli forces are that dumb and that exposure would cause an all time low on the issue of who has more morality.

You are more sophisticated than that Justice. Certainly you have learned the lesson that the bigger the lie the more believable and the more it is repeated the more it is believed. Tell me, Justice, how many Americans still believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 26 March 2004 02:28 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
how many Americans still believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction?

I don't know and even they actually did I'm right now with Dick Clark that Bush got his priorities mixed up. In fact I always believed there were other priorities.

And your argument is weak because it can go both ways. How many people still think that Jenin was a massacre?

[ 26 March 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
lùx
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3497

posted 26 March 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for lùx        Edit/Delete Post
What's interesting about this story is this: Cameras are not allowed ANYWHERE near Israeli checkpoints for fear of the West witnessing how the Israeli military brutally treats average Palestinians.

Funny though how this 14-yr old is fully captured on camera, at a checkpoint. Reporters all there, but not allowed to ask the 14-yr old any questions. Later an Israeli official gives a public statement seen on BBC and CTV as to how the 14-yr old is "mentally slow" - and therefore believe nothing that he has to say in the future (in case he would be so audacious to accuse Israel).

Israel has a lot to gain by staging such a thing... and nothing to lose as they know few would dare suggest such a thing in our present world where all Western broadcasters and leaders are constantly concerned about offending delicate Israeli sensitivities. We can call the French names all we want in the media, but just hint at something about Israel and a news network will get the full melodramatic backlash.

The Israeli PR maching is huge and is designed to appeal to the "700 Club", "100 Huntley Street"-watching crowd of non-thinkers who believe that Israelis are supreme beings, God's "chosen" to be "blessed" at any cost, and of course eternal, helpless victims of others - never in the wrong themselves. And sadly, millions of North American Christians have been suckered into this basic, yet fully supremacist ideology. One day it will change. All things work in cycles.


From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
o
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4435

posted 26 March 2004 03:50 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, now we are getting into the tinfoil-hat wearing conspiracy crowd. ITS ALL A LIE..YOU ARE LIIVING IN THE MATRIX..DO NOT REMOVE YOUR TINFOIL HAT!
From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 26 March 2004 04:10 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And your argument is weak because it can go both ways. How many people still think that Jenin was a massacre?

Actually, justice, if you actually read what people wrote, you would appreciate you have just established my argument for me. I did write, had you read it: "I don't think we should believe either side. Truth is already the first victim."

And so, as it goes, I would believe neither side. Both Israel and Palestinian militant groups are led by murderous, bastards willing, capable and ready to exploit children for a political or military advanatge.

They are all blood soaked, murderous bastards. And Sharon is their king lording over the feast of blood like Jabba the Hutt.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 26 March 2004 05:14 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And your argument is weak because it can go both ways. How many people still think that Jenin was a massacre?

If the documented deaths of 60 people isn't a massacre, what is?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 26 March 2004 06:07 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is also graphic proof they were not exactly quiet. furthermore there was an opportunity to end this in 2000 it may...

You can think what you may about the following: While it is true that there was Palestinian militant activity after Oslo, the pecentile difference between Palestinians killed against Israelis has gone down since the Intifada. In other words, if you look at the violence as a series of proportioned retaliations, the Israelis conducted a very agressive campainge against the Palestinians during the Oslo period, while the Palestinians were tolerant.

I have seen statistics that show that Palestinians were dying at a rate of 10-1 during the Olso period. Now it is 3-1. It could eveen be said that Israel did not even try to adhere to the ceasefire, while the Palestinians (especially Fatah and the PA) did.

And the deal offered by the PA was a great deal, full recogintion of Israel in 78% of the Palestine Mandate, against 22% of their original claim, founded on their longstanding occupation of the area for thousands of years.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 26 March 2004 06:10 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The "people" were armed goons. Hiding among civilians.

As Wingnut has explained, telling a lie often enough becomes 'truth'.

You two, are pretty good at it.
Show us the documents, al-Qabong.

And Cueball, it's not a hockey match. The IDF acts only against terrorists. Get it. Terrorists. You seem to have a problem accepting the difference.


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 26 March 2004 06:34 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:
The IDF acts only against terrorists. Get it. Terrorists.

Now that's what I call black humour.
Really David, you don't expect us to believe it when you say stuff like that, do you?


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 26 March 2004 06:36 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't expect you, Rufus Polson, to believe the truth . . . because it makes a liar out of you.
From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 26 March 2004 06:41 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The plank in your own eye, David.
From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 26 March 2004 07:57 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*instaplonk*
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 26 March 2004 08:01 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:
I don't expect you, Rufus Polson, to believe the truth . . . because it makes a liar out of you.

Consider this a warning. It is not appropriate to call someone a "liar" because they disagree with you.

[ 26 March 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 26 March 2004 08:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And Cueball, it's not a hockey match. The IDF acts only against terrorists. Get it. Terrorists. You seem to have a problem accepting the difference.


And your right it is not a hockey match, yet anytime people like me bring forward the actual statistical evidence, people, such as yourself ignore it. Instead opting for empty patriotic sloganeering.

What I am saying is that it was the Palestinians not the Israelis who observed the Oslo cease-fire. That is what those statistics show.

You do understand the purpose of statistics in sociology?

You know what is funny about you guys? No you don't. That is the funniest part.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 26 March 2004 10:34 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:
The "people" were armed goons. Hiding among civilians.

Show us the documents, al-Qabong.


If you have a library card you can check it out.

Searching Jenin : eyewitness accounts of the Israeli invasion, 2002: edited by Ramzy Baroud.

Some of the "people" (denial of Palestinians' humanity is apparently found in Chapter One of the Zionist manual) were children, old men and women.

The name of each person killed and the circumstances of his or her death are described in detail.

What makes you Jenin deniers any better than Holocaust deniers? Scale?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 27 March 2004 01:10 AM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, your warning has been noted. You're a good sport.

al-Qabong, I do have a library card, but I do not read fiction, especially the type which is introduced by Naom Chomsky.

Now, according to two trusted newspapers, namely, The Guardian and Ha'aretz, the Jenin Massacre is a big lie.

If you are not afraid of the truth, check it out:
How Jenin battle became a 'massacre' (For those who don't care to subscribe to the Guardian, to read the full report, drop me a note and I'll email the full text from the May 6, 2002 edition. It's written by Sharon Sadeh -- London correspondent of the Israeli liberal newspaper Ha'aretz.)

And from today's Ha'aretz, further confirmation that the Jenin Massacre is a hoax.

Back to Jenin

[ 27 March 2004: Message edited by: DavidB-D ]


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 27 March 2004 01:15 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your first link makes no sense.

The second does nothing to refute the evidence presented in the book I mentioned. What's wrong with Chomsky? Are you antisemitic?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 27 March 2004 01:34 AM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The book you mentioned is fiction.

If you want the full text of the first link, I'll drop it in your private box. Just ask.


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 27 March 2004 01:43 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Deny deny deny
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 27 March 2004 02:48 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What's wrong with Chomsky? Are you antisemitic?


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 March 2004 03:41 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The crux of the Israeli defence around the Jenin massacre has always been largely semantic. How many killed, how they were killed etc., etc, Whether or not those facts fit the defintion of a massacre. We are told that the numbers don't match, the methods are not those of massacre. This divice is alway used to cover up the fact that there was a lot of unwaranted killing of civilians, and also people who had every right to defend their homes from an invading army.

You can call them terrorists, but you can never prove it because they are dead and will not stand trial. Without a trial or any kind of systematic investigation you can not prove guilt. You only have the words of the IDF. The Gestapo called the resitance in France terrorist too, a semantic shell game that allows an army or a police force to do anything it wants at all. How many, had no intention of going to Jerusalem to raid Israel, and just picked up a gun when the IOF came. You don't know that, either.

The fact that the Israel uses the multi-dimentional and every so slippery word terrorist to describe the people they kill tells me more than anything else that they are lying. Why? Because the word has no meaning, except to say that these are people we can kill without regard to law.

Fact is the Israeli army has no Jurisdiction in Jenin and never has. No right to shoot anyone at all, terrorist, militant, soldier, child, mother old man.

How many times have I seen Israeli papers describe the killing of less than ten people as a massacre? Many, many times. Yet when its Palestinians you have to bag a couple of hundred to warrant a footnote of disgust in the Jerusalem Post.

Frankly I don't care if it was a massacre or not. It was still illegal, imoral and disgusting.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 March 2004 03:42 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
B2... I don't think that is such a great joke.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
lùx
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3497

posted 27 March 2004 06:12 AM      Profile for lùx        Edit/Delete Post
Funny how Israelis are so quick to deny that Jenin was a massacre, and deny the numbers of innocents that were killed there. Hmmmmm.... try doing something similar with regards to a discussion on the holocaust and see where you end up.
From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 27 March 2004 10:52 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lùx:
Funny how Israelis are so quick to deny that Jenin was a massacre, and deny the numbers of innocents that were killed there. Hmmmmm.... try doing something similar with regards to a discussion on the holocaust and see where you end up.
Very clever..it seems to me this is nothing but an attempt at baiting Jews. Is this permitted on babble?

As for Jenin this was put to bed months ago except for those who want to continually demonize Israel


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 27 March 2004 12:18 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, your boy Justice raised the Jenin issue, so go accuse him of being vile and demonic.

Not only the same manual, but the same script?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
lùx
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3497

posted 27 March 2004 12:33 PM      Profile for lùx        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Very clever..it seems to me this is nothing but an attempt at baiting Jews. Is this permitted on babble?

Here we go again. One can say whatever about Palestinians or any other group -- but say something about Israeli policy -- and you're guaranteed someone will make some outlandish claim & namecall. By showing this double-standard, somehow I'm "baiting Jews"? Macabee: First off... why are you changing the focus here and making this an issue about Jews, and not about Israel as a nation? I'm talking about Israelis. Nice tactic. Secondly, (using your logic) are you baiting non-Jews? Is that allowed? Good God - enough with the arrogance.

But thanks Macabee. You've proven my point.

[ 27 March 2004: Message edited by: lùx ]


From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 March 2004 01:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Not only the same manual, but the same script?

Sounds like it to me too. Should we have a welcome-back party?

However, lux's analogy is absolutely, totally ridiculous. Whether or not Jenin was a massacre IS a disputed point, even by reputable, third-party sources if I remember correctly. It in no way compares to the overwhelmingly documented, huge-scale, industrialized genocide of the Holocaust. Questioning Jenin is in no way the same thing as Holocaust denial or minimalization.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 March 2004 01:24 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for Jenin this was put to bed months ago except for those who want to continually demonize Israel.

Ok: welcome back. I guess.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 27 March 2004 02:12 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It in no way compares to the overwhelmingly documented, huge-scale, industrialized genocide of the Holocaust.

Jenin and the Holocaust are not the same. That's not the point, though.

The act of denial is the same.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 27 March 2004 08:24 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Consider this a warning. It is not appropriate to call someone a "liar" because they disagree with you.
[ 26 March 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

To be fair, Michelle, I was more or less calling him a liar too. You really ought to warn me as well.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 27 March 2004 08:52 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:
The IDF acts only against terrorists. Get it. Terrorists.

OK, so, responding to this without any comments about DavidB-D's veracity.
So let's see, the IDF never kills--no, not just kills, never "acts against" anyone but terrorists.
Silly me. Like all those dead child terrorists, two-year-old terrorists, random bystander terrorists, not to mention the journalist terrorists, that UN observer terrorist, Rachel Corrie the terrorist, and of course the ambulance driver terrorists. Plus the sick people and pregnant women on the way to hospital who died because they weren't allowed past the checkpoint or ambulances weren't allowed to reach them terrorists. Then there's the people-living-in-bulldozed-houses terrorists, who don't--usually--actually get killed, just "acted against". Not to mention pretty much anyone in the occupied territories trying to hold down a job or go to school or go get groceries, who are also "acted against" by making it impossible to move between home and whatever they need to do, through the combination of checkpoints and curfews. Which brings us to the dead curfew violator terrorists. How could I forget that they're all terrorists, every single one. Oh, oh! How about that blind middle-aged terrorist a few years back who was put in jail for years, beaten and tied in those body-breaking positions and kept in solitary etc. etc. for "throwing a rock at a soldier"? And all the farmer terrorists, who keep trying to commit the terrorist act of picking olives--clearly the IDF has to shoot some and bulldoze the groves of others. Then there's the related cases of "didn't run away when the illegal settlers came to beat them up and shoot at them" terrorists; absolutely imperative for the IDF to stop that kind of terrorist activity by driving those dangerous terrorists off their fields. Then there's the "every adult or near-adult male in the area of an operation" terrorists who get handcuffed, beaten, hauled away, denied food and water, then usually let go after a couple days. Why they let those terrorists go, I'll never understand. Oh, yeah, and that refugee camp, where the IDF used to have a megaphone and yell taunts and insults in Arabic, luring the kid terrorists to come and throw rocks so they could snipe them.

Well, now that we're quite clear that the IDF only acts against terrorists, I guess I'll leave the field to DavidB-D. Clearly he wouldn't make grotesque, untenable claims whitewashing a group that regularly commits atrocities.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 30 March 2004 12:45 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A sudden concern for the Palestinian child

quote:
Why weren't we shocked by the killing of Christine Sa'ada, who was shot dead in an IDF ambush while traveling in a car with her parents in Bethlehem, exactly a year ago today? Why was there no public outcry following the killing of Jamil and Ahmed Abu Aziz, two brothers who were riding their bicycles in Jenin in broad daylight when a tank fired a shell at them? How is their killing, which was documented on video, less cruel? Why didn't we show pictures of Basil and Abir Abu Samra, who were killed together with their mother in their vineyard near Nablus, just as we displayed pictures of Hussam Abdu? Why have we never discussed the killing of children at the entrance to the Qalandiyah refugee camp, where a child is killed by Border Police or IDF fire every few weeks? Why is a putting an explosives belt on a child more shocking than firing a shell at him?


[ 30 March 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 30 March 2004 01:51 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Well, your boy Justice raised the Jenin issue, so go accuse him of being vile and demonic.

Not only the same manual, but the same script?


I had the same though . . . I would like to hear his opinion of the "Halocaust" first to be sure!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 30 March 2004 04:10 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In order to avoid the drifting of this thread I started a new thread about jenin here

hashing Jenin again


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 30 March 2004 04:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good job justice.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca