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Author Topic: The Syrian Threat
Cueball
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posted 13 February 2004 11:39 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Out of the north an evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land" (Jer 1:14) is a verse every Israeli pupil learns by heart. This biblical truth has never been more true than these days: the Syrian President, in a major threat to the Jewish state, offers Israel to resume peace talks. A blatant crime against war itself. Israel, understandably, is forced to defend itself.

There are several convincing reasons why Israel should reject the peaceful Syrian hand. First of all, Syria should come to the negotiation table without any preconditions. When Assad proved evil enough to accept this, Israel demanded that Syria stop it alleged support for "terrorism" (and accept the Israeli-American definition of terrorism, to include resistance to occupation). Fair enough: both sides, except the Israeli side, should come to the negotiation table without any preconditions. Imagine Syria demanding that Israel end its occupation, or just dismantle its death squads, as a precondition to resume peace talks.


Antiwar.com


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Justice
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posted 13 February 2004 12:57 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Cueball:

except the Israeli side, should come to the negotiation table without any preconditions. Imagine Syria demanding that Israel end its occupation, or just dismantle its death squads, as a precondition to resume peace talks.


I'm not sure I understood this. The presence of Israeli forces in the disputed territories should end regardless. It has nothing to do with Syria. That would pretty much end the death of innocent civilians in the territories due to armed conflict although it would not end their suffering. A lot need to be done to fix that especially when it comes to Palestinian governance.

I also feel that it is imperative to restore human rights in Lebanon. That could be fixed by ending the brutal occupation of Syrian forces in Lebanon. An occupation which is much more brutal and racist then the Israeli. This would also reduce terrorism directed towards Israel but more importantly save many lives and improve the quality of life for many, many people. Yes the Palestinians are suffering but the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon and the Lebanese are suffering much more. And the only one to blame is Syria.

For more details check these out

web pageSYRIA AND SYRIAN-OCCUPIED LEBANON HRW

Amnesty

Free Lebanon The Unofficial General Michel Aoun Site

quote:
Today Lebanon is still occupied by over 40,000 Syrian soldiers, contrary to what the dissolved parliament had agreed upon in the Taef Agreement. The government in power in Lebanon is a puppet in the hands of Syria, denying people freedom of speech. There are daily arrests without warrants. There is an outcry as a result of the terrorizing methods employed by the Syrian intelligence service against the Lebanese citizens, coupled with the deteriorating economic situation in Lebanon. Prime Minister General Michel Aoun is still in France, where he heads a number of international organizations, working peacefully toward the achievement of a free Lebanon.

Syria's regime ethnic cleansing in occupied Lebanon

quote:
Lebanon Now:
1.The Syrian army occupies most of Lebanon, including the main airport. It harbors and all vital agencies with 30,000 troops and about 20,000 intelligence agents (that is equivalent to sending 5 million troops to occupy the US). Syria detains hundreds of Lebanese in its prisons without charges, and refuses to implement UN Security Council resolution No. 52O that calls for pullout of non-Lebanese troops from Lebanon.
2.Palestinians-There are approximately 400,000+ ungoverned Palestinians still living in camps in Lebanon and harboring armed guerrillas and without any regard for the Lebanese people or country (This is equivalent to placing 50 million refugees in the United States at one time).
3.Israeli troops withdrew from the area of south Lebanon on May, 2000, which they had occupied for 22 years. Israel holds about twenty Lebanese in its prisons without charges. .
4.The Lebanese Authorities are paralyzed by the Syrian régime who control a proxy government in Lebanon terrorizing and brutalizing the Lebanese people.
5.The Lebanese people are being forced to leave their country due to economical disaster caused by the political crisis and Syrian illegal labor-force in Lebanon. Approximately 35% of the Lebanese population left the country since 1990, when Syrian troops completely captured the capital Beirut..
Lebanon, the country that used to be called “Switzerland of the East”, experiences now Ruined Economy, Pro-Syrian Totalitarian Regime and major Violations of Human Rights

Syria state of Terror

quote:
(March 1989) Syria Massacring Lebanese civilians in UNESCO
The Syrian army used its heaviest Soviet-made artillery, Especially these equipped with 240 and 160 millimetres canons, to pound both the East and the West sides of Beirut, on March 14, 1989, in a response to the exceptional support of the Lebanese people for their constitutional government. Tens of Lebanese were killed in the onslaught especially in the UNESCO area.

On October 13th, 1990, The Syrian forces launched an aerial and land attacks on the Lebanese presidential palace and the Lebanese army headquarters. The Lebanese army and the people supporting their government could not resist the vicious attack.
The Syrian troops took over the area committing massacres against the surrendering Lebanese troops and civilians. Hundreds of people were killed. More than a hundred Lebanese officers were shut dead with a bullet in their heads, after they surrendered themselves.
Hundreds of Lebanese soldiers, civilians and even priests were kidnapped and transferred to prisons in Syria. The Syrian regular troops and their proxy guerillas looted the residential and governmental possessions. The Syrian Intelligence services put their hands on the Lebanese Ministry of Defense and transferred its archive, equipment, computers, maps and strategic historic information.
The Syrian occupation forces appointed a Lebanese collaborator as a president who formed a pro-Syrian government in Lebanon, while the legitimate prime minister of Lebanon was sent to exile in France.



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Tolok
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posted 13 February 2004 02:46 PM      Profile for Tolok        Edit/Delete Post
Interesting sites.

Why does antiwar.com make no mention of them?
Just how antiwar are they, anyway?

[ 13 February 2004: Message edited by: Tolok ]


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Cueball
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posted 13 February 2004 06:10 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm not sure I understood this.

Are you under the impression that I wrote the above editorial? It seems that you must be. Click the link to go the whole article. In any case this comment is sarcasm by the author.

He is pointing out that making someone say they will come to the negotiating table without preconditions, and then inisting that they do things like renounce 'terrorism' as defined by us are preconditions.

It seems generally that your point is that Syria is a facist police state, and is occupying part of neighbouring country. This is true. Yet, this fact has little to do with whether or not Syria and Israel should have peace talks.

Even more reason to do so. The occupation of Lebanon is an issue that could be discussed at such peace talks. Isn't that right?

My feeling is that Sharon does not want to get into the nitty-gritty of codemning illegal ocupations of foreign territories.

Thanks for the links.

[ 13 February 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Cueball
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posted 13 February 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why does antiwar.com make no mention of them?

It seems to me that your point is that all web sites should link to all other web sites at all times?

[ 13 February 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Tolok
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posted 13 February 2004 06:22 PM      Profile for Tolok        Edit/Delete Post
No, but perhaps they should change their name to antisomewar.com.
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Cueball
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posted 13 February 2004 06:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your lack of commentary (except for the predictable attempt at shooting the messenger) leaves me to believe that you have no serious case against what HaCohen argues. Or perhaps you are incapable of articulating one?

Are your short sarcastic bursts evidence of a broad intelligence muffled by massive doses of lithium or haldol?


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Tolok
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posted 13 February 2004 06:28 PM      Profile for Tolok        Edit/Delete Post
Take a chill pill, buddy.
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Cueball
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posted 13 February 2004 06:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you recommend it for everyone?
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Stockholm
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posted 13 February 2004 06:59 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So why all the protest about Israel's occupation of the West Bank but no one cares about how Syria has occupied and colonized Lebanon? They even installed the Phalangist who ordered the Sabra and Shatilla massacre to be a cabinet minister in their puppet "government" of Lebanon.
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Cueball
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posted 13 February 2004 07:34 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The issue here is not the protest. Justice has outlined the protest fine.

Yes, Syria should not be in Lebanon. Is that what you want me to say? There I said it. It is the truth.

The issue is the arguement being made here, by this Israeli citizen. I take it that you agree with him that Sharon rejects a peace where Israel gives in on any substantial issue, and would rather that the statue quo continue until annexation is de facto. This because you have made no arguement against it.

As I pointed out, Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon could be a topic of negotiation.

Edited to add: are the Syrians actually 'colonizing' by moving Syrians into Lebanon? Colonizing is specific term.

[ 13 February 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Justice
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posted 14 February 2004 02:25 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are you under the impression that I wrote the above editorial? It seems that you must be. Click the link to go the whole article. In any case this comment is sarcasm by the author.
He is pointing out that making someone say they will come to the negotiating table without preconditions, and then inisting that they do things like renounce 'terrorism' as defined by us are preconditions.

No, No, No my point is of course there should be no preconditions. 1) Israel's presence in the disputed territories should end ill-related of what Syria wants it has nothing to do with Syria. 2) The Syrian occupation of Lebanon should end immediately ill-related to negations with Israel. It has nothing to do with Israel 3) Terrorism and the death of innocent civilian whether intentional or unintentional should end.

These are humanitarian issues that each country is responsible for not political issues between the 2 countries to be used as bargaining chips.

And finally of course Sharon would love to discuss illegal occupations and get out of the spot light there are so many occupations that the world could focus on. Many which are way worse then the presence of the IDF in Gaza and the west bank. Yet the world seems to obsessively focus on Israel it is surely biased and even discriminatory.

Worse it shows that the world is less concerned about human rights and more concerned at focusing on particular country then applying and enforcing humanitarian law fairly across the globe. This ignorance is a crime against humanity.

[ 14 February 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Stockholm
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posted 14 February 2004 12:51 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What i would really like to see would be for Israel to NOT disband the settlements in the occupied territories. Instead, they should just cede the land to the Palestinians and force those settler creeps to live under Palestinian rule. That way we also reduce the number of religious freaks with Brooklyn accents that have any influence over Israeli politics and society. With any luck, life will be so unpleasant under Palestinian rule that they will all move back to Coney Island and Israel will be rid of them once and for all.
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Agent 204
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posted 14 February 2004 02:58 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's a good idea actually. I wonder how well it would go over in Israel, though, especially among the ultraconservatives.
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Justice
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posted 14 February 2004 03:25 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes that would be not a bad idea. But you're missing the point. This thread is about the Syrian threat and therefore what needs to be done in regards to Syria and what is Syria's responsibility. This has nothing to do with Israel and the presence of forces in the west bank and Gaza.
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Cueball
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posted 14 February 2004 08:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I couldn't agree more with your summary. In fact I would say that neither Sharon, nor Assad are interested in discussing their respective occupations as part of a peace negotiation.

For a start they could talk Golan Heights, and the return of Golan refugees to their home.

One of the best paragraphs in Hacohen's piece is this:

quote:
A major, persistent claim is that Israel cannot run peace talks on two fronts at the same time. Very understandable: Israel's military strategy has always been based on the assumption that it should be able to cope with war on all fronts at once: to face a simultaneous attack on both the Egyptian and the so-called Eastern front (i.e. Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia all joining forces together; an imminent scenario!). But holding peace talks on two fronts at once? That's truly impossible. Just think of two negotiation teams, with their regular flights, fax and phone bills. A small state like Israel can simply not afford it. Even a self-hating Jew like myself understands that it is impossible to launch peace talks on a second front. But I wonder: what is actually the first front? Surely not peace talks with the Palestinians, that exploded more than three years ago and have never been resumed?


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Justice
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posted 14 February 2004 09:39 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Listen you can always have discussions no harm done by talking

Another problem that has to be fixed ill related of the talks is fixing the humanitarian crisis that refugees are in. the right of return will not fix this problem.

And finally the Golan highest is completely different issue for Gaza the West bank or Lebanon. If you think the refugees will be happy to return there under Syrian rule think again As well until Israel captured the Golan Heights in 67 from Syria. The Syrians used it to constantly Shell villages in the Galilee. This security of civilians in the Galilee and Israel is paramount to consider before signing any agreements with Syria Israel should not unilaterally with draw from the Golan with out any preconditions. Israel with drawl from the west bank and Gaza is different they should and they do have every right to put a fence on their land to defend themselves. The Syrian occupation of Lebanon should end immediately because they surely are not defending themselves they are only terrorizing Lebanese.

Israel presence in the Golan heights is different there are many Arab villages there and in the Galilee which enjoy probably more rights and better humanitarian conditions than any other Arabs in the middle east although I must admit it's not quite equal to Jews in Israel and flooding Israel with a couple million more refugees into these areas won't help them either. First we need to ensure the basic necessities of the refugees like education, health care proper sanitary conditions proper housing after that is taken care of can we discuss how to best implement the right of return.

[ 14 February 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Agent 204
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posted 14 February 2004 09:54 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
Israel with drawl

Well, I know there are Jews in the American South, and I'm sure some of them emigrate to Israel...

(sorry, couldn't resist)

[ 14 February 2004: Message edited by: Mike Keenan ]


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Cueball
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posted 14 February 2004 09:58 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And finally the Golan highest is completely different issue for Gaza the West bank or Lebanon. If you think the refugees will be happy to return there under Syrian rule think again...

I am talking about the Syrian Golan Heights refugees who left to avoid being killed in the 1967 war. From Newsday by James P. Pinkerton:

quote:
Damascus, Syria -- I am reasonably well-informed about Middle East issues, but one phrase was new and unfamiliar to me until I arrived here: "Golan Heights Refugees."

quote:
So I was taken aback when virtually every Syrian I have met here told me that the Golan wasn't empty until the Israelis captured it. The Syrian story is that the Heights were home to many people, engaged in productive agriculture. Indeed, the Heights are important in another way: they provide much of the water in the area. Snow-capped Mt. Hermon, the highest point in the eastern Mediterranean, is nearby.

quote:
According to the Encyclopedia Encarta, which is in my laptop computer, in 1967 the population of the area was about 100,000 Syrians. In 2002, there were about 16,500 Arabs and 17,000 Jews. In other words, some 84,000 Arabs seem to have vanished from the scene in the last 36 years. I'm no demographic expert, but it's not that hard to believe that 84,000 Syrians could multiply into half a million in that span of time.

Web Log: Golan Heights Have Long History

quote:
The Syrians used it to constantly Shell villages in the Galilee

If the Syrians were still intent on prosecuting a low intensity conflict with the Israeli's, they could just target those who have now moved into the Golan. Could they not. They have moved into range.

I am absolutely sure that Syria would allow for a DMZ, and rule of the area so they could move their people back to where they came from. Damascus is already crowded enough.

[ 14 February 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Cueball
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posted 14 February 2004 10:08 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel with drawl from the west bank and Gaza is different they should and they do have every right to put a fence on their land to defend themselves.

Yasser Arafat has made this point as well. Do you want me to look for the quote?

quote:
The Syrian occupation of Lebanon should end immediately because they surely are not defending themselves they are only terrorizing Lebanese.

And the Palestinians aren't terrorized?

"I am very worried by the number of Palestinian children shot in the past year"

-- former head of Israel's Security Services, Ami Ayalon.

[ 14 February 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Cueball
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posted 14 February 2004 10:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Prehaps this will help:
Chronology

1860: Druze-Christian war kills 12,000 Christians. French troops land to protect Maronite community.

1914-1918: Ottomans rule collapses, leaving mass starvation in Lebanon.

1920: League of Nations gives France mandate for Syria and Lebanon.

1926: Republican Constitution.

1932: France suspends Constitution.

1936: Phalange Party founded by Pierre Gemayel.

1939: France falls to Germany, which establishes Vichy France regime, continuing to administer Lebanon and Syria.

1941: British and Free French toops invade Lebanon. France promises full independence.

1943: Lebanon independent.

1946: France withdraws.

1948: Israel declare independence. Large numbers of Palestinan refugees arrive.

1953: Camille Chamoun elected President.

1956: Israel, backed by France and Britain, attacks Egypt in war over Suez Canal.

1957: Early elections, CIA support.

1958: Civil War between Muslims and Christians. President Camille Chamoun requests US Marines, which land in Beirut.

1964: PLO founded.

1967: June 5-10: Israel's Six Day War, leaving Israel occupying the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula (Egypt), and Golan (Syrian) Heights.

1968: Dec. 28: Israeli commandos raid Lebanon airport, destroying 13 aircraft. This was retaliation for Arab guerrillas machine-gunning an Israeli airliner in Athens on Dec. 26.

1969: Clashes between Lebanese army and PLO.

1970: PLO driven out of Jordan, set up headquarters in Beirut. Increase in PLO raids into Israel from southern Lebanon.

1973: Lebanon sieges PLO camps. Phalange Party
Apr. 10: Israeli commandos kill three Palestinian leaders in Beirut.

1974: Israel bombs Sabra and Shatila Palestinian refugee camps.

1975: Civil war starts after Phalangists attack PLO guerillas in Beirut.

1976: Civil war fighting intensifies. Christians massacre Palestinian inhabitants of Karantina and Tel el-Za'atar, Palestinians massacre Christians in Damour. Syria invited by Lebanese President Franjieh to intervene in Lebanese fighting. Syrian troops enter Lebanon and occupy all but far south of the country.

Aug. 12: Christians massacre Palestinians in Tel-al-Za'tar refugee camp.

1978: Israeli army invades southern Lebanon after Israeli civilians killed in PLO guerrilla raid. United Nations force (UNIFIL) sent to southern Lebanon. Israel forms proxy Lebanese militia in occupation zone. Syrian army shells Christians in east Beirut.

Mar. 12: Israeli army invades southern Lebanon, in retaliation for Israeli civilians killed in a PLO guerrilla raid.

Mar. 19: UN Security Council Resolution 425 calls for immediate Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, and dispatches a new United Nations force (UNIFIL) to southern Lebanon.

1980-81: Increase in hostilities between Israel, Israeli-backed militias and PLO in southern Lebanon.

1981:

July 17: Israeli jets bomb PLO targets in Beirut, killing 300 people.

1982: Syrian troops besiege Syrian city of Hama after Muslim extremist uprising, killing up to 10,000 Sunni Muslims.

June 3: Palestinian terrorist group led by Abu Nidal attempts to assassinate Israel's Ambassador to Great Britain (Shlomo Argov).

June 6: Israel invades Lebanon.

Aug. 21: US mediation convinces PLO to leave Lebanon; multinational peacekeeping force arrives.

Aug. 23: Bashir Gemayel elected President.

Sept. 14: Bashir Gemayel assassinated.

Sept. 16-18: Phalangist militia enters Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, and massacres 700-800 Palestinians (Israeli estimate; other estimates range to 2000).

Sept. 21: Amin Gemayel (Bashir's brother) elected President.

1983: US Beirut Embassy destroyed by "Islamic Jihad" suicide bomber. Lebanese and Israeli governments agree on withdrawal of Israel troops from Lebanon on condition Syrian army also leaves. Syrians refuse to withdraw. Outbreak of fighting between Muslim forces and Lebanese government troops of President Amin Gemayel. Israeli army stages unilateral withdrawal from Chouf mountains east of Beirut to new front lines north of Sidon. French and US military headquarters razed by "Islamic Jihad" suicide bombers, killing more than 300 servicemen after US warships shell Muslim areas of Lebanon in support of Gemayel's government. Lebanese hold first "reconciliation" conference in Switzerland. Suicide bomber destroys Israeli military headquarters in Tyre.

May 17: Agreement signed between Lebanon and Israel, contingent on Syrian withdrawal; Syria and its allies attack Lebanese government forces.

Oct. 23: Suicide bombers kill 241 US Marines and 56 French troops in near-simultaneous truck bomb attacks.

1984: Multinational forces leave Lebanon after collapse of Lebanese government army. President Assad of Syria welcomes Gemayel to Damascus. Second Lebanese "reconciliation" conference in Switzerland fails. Abductions of Westerners in Beirut, including CIA station chief William Buckley, who dies after torture. Fierce Lebanese resistance -- mainly by Shia Muslims -- against Israeli occupation army in southern Lebanon.

Feb. 26: Last US Marines leave Lebanon.

1985: Israeli army withdraws from Sidon. Israel starts "iron fist" policy of military repression against guerrilla villages in southern Lebanon. Car bomb kills more than 80 civilians in Shia area of Beirut (CIA involvement later reported in Washington). Further abductions of Westerners in Lebanon, including journalist Terry Anderson of Associated Press. Israelis withdraw from Tyre. Shia Amal militia attacks Palestinian Beirut camps. Suicide bombers again attack Israelis and their allies in southern Lebanon.

1986: Shia Amal militia resumes attack on camps. More Westerners abducted. Hundreds of Palestinians die in camp sieges.

1987: Archbishop of Canterbury's envoy Terry Waite disappears in west Beirut while seeking release of US hostages. Shia and Druze militia war in Beirut prompts return of thousands of Syrian troops to Lebanese capital. Palestinian camps siege resumes.

1988: Failure of Lebanese parliament to elect new president. Rival prime ministers take office in west and east Beirut.

1989: General Michel Aoun, Christian Lebanese "prime minister," declares war on Syrian army in Lebanon. East Beirut besieged by Syrians and their Lebanese militia allies. Aoun abandons his war.

1990: Aoun is driven from the Presidential Palace and Lebanese civil war officially ends.

1993: Israel bombards Southern Lebanon even as Beirut is rebuilt.

July 25: Israel launches Operation Accountability in southern Lebanon.

1996: More than 200 Lebanese civilians die in Israel's "Grapes of Wrath" attack on Lebanon, 106 in a UN compound at Qana.

2000: Israel's army finally retreats behind its frontier wire as Hezbollah proclaim victory. The Oslo agreement collapses in violence.
May 25: Israel unilaterally withdraws from Lebanon.

2001: Ariel Sharon is elected Prime Minister of Israel.

From this site:

How Did We Get Here?

Note what I have bolded above. Question: What Jordanian or Palstinian authority invited Israel to occupy the West Bank?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 14 February 2004 11:01 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
1976: Civil war fighting intensifies. Christians massacre Palestinian inhabitants of Karantina and Tel el-Za'atar, Palestinians massacre Christians in Damour. Syria invited by Lebanese President Franjieh to intervene in Lebanese fighting. Syrian troops enter Lebanon and occupy all but far south of the country.

quote:
Note what I have bolded above. Question: What Jordanian or Palstinian authority invited Israel to occupy the West Bank?

Well we all know this is a rhetorical question. Did the Palestinians invite the Jordanians in the west bank? did the Palestinians invite the Egyptians to occupy Gaza?

Israel did try to return at least Gaza went it returned the Sinai but the Egyptians didn't want. Hmmmm I wonder why?

These lands were occupied in the 6 day war. The summary you gave is nice but it cuts out some important facts that lead up to the 6 day war. Israel didn't not go to colonize or to imperially conquer the whole of the middle east. There were some provocations on the side of the Egyptians with the help of the Jordanians

And Syria did more then just provoked it shelled villages in the Galilee for a long time. I call that an act of war. There is a reason Israel took the Golan.

quote:
If the Syrians were still intent on prosecuting a low intensity conflict with the Israeli's, they could just target those who have now moved into the Golan. Could they not. They have moved into range.

The Syrians don't need to go to war with Israel today it's too risky with today's modern rockets they could easily bomb Tel-aviv and Israel would bomb Damascus back. That’s why the Syrians support Hezbollah and attack Israel through Lebanon.

There really is no military reason to keep the Golan but it still could be a useful bargaining chips

quote:
Syria invited by Lebanese President Franjieh to intervene in Lebanese fighting.

that’s probably as good as the Americans intervening in the Iraq Iran war. No regard for innocent people. Syria doesn't care now they can rule Lebanon with an iron fist.


quote:
I am absolutely sure that Syria would allow for a DMZ, and rule of the area so they could move their people back to where they came from. Damascus is already crowded enough.

Trust me Assad doesn't care about people aside from himself and his close friends and family.

Although everybody in the middle east could use the water that’s why everyone really wants the Golan heights some treaty on water will be needed to be negotiated and should be inclusive of all countries in the mid-east. As well as the implementation of modern conservation and treatment techniques should be considered.

None of this has to do with refugees and Syria's presence in Lebanon hasn't helped refugees or the average Lebanese same as Israel presence

[ 14 February 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Courage
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posted 14 February 2004 11:06 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, I hope your head is as hard as your moniker suggests, you'll need it if you keep banging it up against the Wall of Justice.....
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Justice
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posted 14 February 2004 11:10 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Cueball, I hope your head is as hard as your moniker suggests, you'll need it if you keep banging it up against the Wall of Justice.....

what taking pot shots? Your truth is the only truth? They syrains can do no harm? Israel is the only real threat to anyone in the mid-east? rigggghhhhht.


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Cueball
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posted 14 February 2004 11:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel didn't not go to colonize or to imperially conquer the whole of the middle east.

No. Just the West Bank. Ask yourself, why did the Allon plan for the occupation, division and settlement of the WB appear on the Prime Ministers desk less than 6 weeks after the war ended?

And whatever justfication is used, the fact remains that it was Israel that started the 6 day war. No serious historian disputes that, even the pro-Zionist ones.

Of course there are two sides to every conflict, it is only you who are saying that I think that Israel is responsible for all evil, as Mishei likes to say, in the Middle East? Arabs are perfectly capable of evil. In fact the Christian (Arab) Phelange were the exact killers at sabra and Shatila.

But here is my problem, you agree that the refugees should be returned (somewhere), then you note Syrian occupation of Lebanon and note the fighting between the Christians and the Palestinians (implying as many do that they are trouble makers everywhere they go), and then ignore that fact that they would not be there if Israel hadn't played a large role in booting them out of what is now called Israel.

If the Palestinian refugees had not been in Lebanon in the first place, the Syrian intervention is very unlikely to have occurred at all, because Lebanon would not have been destabalized by influx of unwanted guests. This is because a stable Labanese political environment would have meant a government that was far less vulnerbable to manipulation by its powerful eastern neighbor.

Here we see how the refugee crisis, and the occupations (both occupations) are clearly linked.

In fact, now I have changed my mind entirely. The right of return, and the occupation of the WB (tied to a withdrawl from Labanon by Syria) is a critical negotiting point.

None of which Sharon is willing to discuss, as pointed out by HaCohen, one of the best Israeli commentators on the present impasse.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 15 February 2004 12:49 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:

what taking pot shots? Your truth is the only truth? They syrains can do no harm? Israel is the only real threat to anyone in the mid-east? rigggghhhhht.


No scarecrow is safe from Justice.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 15 February 2004 03:42 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
1975: Civil war starts after Phalangists attack PLO guerillas in Beirut.

I read/heard it was a busload of Palestinian civilians, not "PLO guerillas" who were ambushed, which started the civil war.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4768

posted 15 February 2004 04:11 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One of the best paragraphs in Hacohen's piece is this:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A major, persistent claim is that Israel cannot run peace talks on two fronts at the same time. Very understandable: Israel's military strategy has always been based on the assumption that it should be able to cope with war on all fronts at once: to face a simultaneous attack on both the Egyptian and the so-called Eastern front (i.e. Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia all joining forces together; an imminent scenario!). But holding peace talks on two fronts at once? That's truly impossible. Just think of two negotiation teams, with their regular flights, fax and phone bills. A small state like Israel can simply not afford it. Even a self-hating Jew like myself understands that it is impossible to launch peace talks on a second front. But I wonder: what is actually the first front? Surely not peace talks with the Palestinians, that exploded more than three years ago and have never been resumed?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



and,

quote:

HaCohen, one of the best Israeli commentators on the present impasse.

Self Defeatist crap.

Has anybody heard FZ's "Carolina Hard Core Ecstacy"?


From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 15 February 2004 09:31 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks you for yet another cogent, intelligent, and well thought out post. In particular I want to thank you for all of the worthwhile source material you have brought forward to make everyone more aware of the sailent issues that confront Israelis in these difficult times.

If I should ever need to refer someone to an articulate (not to mention level headed) sponsor of Israel, I will certainly refer them to you.

Needless to say if Yasser Arafat ever needed to make his case, he would do well to put you in front of a microphone.

Now, you take issue with what specific arguments that HaCohen makes?

[ 15 February 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4768

posted 16 February 2004 01:39 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But holding peace talks on two fronts at once? That's truly impossible. Just think of two negotiation teams, with their regular flights, fax and phone bills. A small state like Israel can simply not afford it. Even a self-hating Jew like myself understands that it is impossible to launch peace talks on a second front.

Impossible?


From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 16 February 2004 03:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It has often been said, in recent memory, by the present Israeli adminstration and its defenders, that it is impossible to negotiate peace on two fronts simultaneously.

For someone who uses sarcasm as primary mode of arguement, I find it odd that you can't identify it in others.

[ 16 February 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4768

posted 17 February 2004 12:47 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
Sarcasm, indeed.
And that’s just it, for me anyway. It makes it hard to take the author, the piece, the site it came from, and you for posting it, seriously. To make lite of any present or future attempt, whether bilateral or multilateral, by Israel to find peace with her neighbours is truly sad. Unlike you I was nauseated. To pass it off as inspiring or insightful commentary is laughable.

Israel vs. Syria
Israel vs. ????
Israel vs. X
Israel vs. Y
Israel vs. Z^n….

What is the common variable?
The author’s clear lack of personal commitment to any workable peace in the region speaks of a greater malaise that (aims to?) aids in perpetuating the status quo. (see previous comment) Your opinion that HaCohen is the best Israeli commentator is extreme.

Once again I am nonplussed. The hard questions keep getting asked and the same tired answers, as usual, are all I can expect. Your Arafat quip only reinforces my position.


From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 17 February 2004 06:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, I'll answer one of your hard question. one that does not attempt to make 'lite' of the Issues. No I have never heard of "Carolina Hard Core Ecstacy."
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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Babbler # 3807

posted 17 February 2004 06:23 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about the Illinois Enema Bandit?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tolok
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4934

posted 17 February 2004 06:45 PM      Profile for Tolok        Edit/Delete Post
Google tells me more of the world than I think I ever wanted to know.
From: Out of Ontario | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged

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