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Author Topic: When Palestinians become oppressors
Justice
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posted 03 February 2004 11:32 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A big part of the problem seldom talked about

When Palestinians become oppressors

quote:
Last week, in an article mostly ignored abroad, Bassam Eid, a brave man who runs the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, described the violence that now rages uncontrolled among his people. His article, "The Reign Of the Thugs," in an Israeli daily, Haaretz, said the Palestinian Authority can't begin to curb the violence. Palestinians murder other Palestinians in cold blood and no one gets charged. Gunmen, some political and some apparently not, spread fear among the population. But, Eid asks, "What Palestinian interior minister would be daring enough to punish those responsible? Would the Palestinian interior minister be killed if he imposed a penalty upon them?"

Eid reported that in the town of Tul Karm, local security is now managed by the Al-Aqsa Brigades when they are not running terrorist operations against Israel. In October they shot down, in the street, two men accused of collaborating with Israel. Criminals, in other words, now function as police and sometimes executioners. This makes it less surprising that it was a Palestinian "policeman" who killed 11 (including a psychologist originally from Toronto) in a Jerusalem bus on Thursday. Last summer Eid reported there had been at least 73 vigilante killings of accused collaborators since the start of the current intifada in 2000. He says that the town of Nablus is currently ruled by two armed, illiterate thugs.

A former journalist for both Israeli and Palestinian newspapers, Eid now spends all his time campaigning for human rights. He started with an Israeli organization but founded his own group after he realized that he had little credibility among Palestinians while connected to Israelis.

He's no great friend of Zionism, he dislikes Ariel Sharon's policies and he wants to see Gaza and the West Bank under Palestinian control. Three years ago he lost some supporters in Israel by claiming that rock-throwing constitutes "non-violent resistance," though rocks have killed more than 10 Israelis.

But his human rights campaigns put him in even more severe conflict with the Palestinian leaders, whom he considers incompetent as well as corrupt. A vehement opponent of suicide bombing, he thinks it scandalous that Yasser Arafat encourages Palestinians, including children, to kill themselves and others. Last year he wrote, "It appears the nearly 2,500 Palestinians and more than 700 Israelis killed during this intifada are not enough to fulfill Arafat's political interests."

In 1995 he brought out a report on the PA's human rights violations, including torture, quoting the testimony of 72 victims. In 1999, in a study of academic freedom at Palestinian universities, he found a network of undercover agents collecting the names of those who criticize the PA. He said students and faculty did not feel free to speak in class. "There are a number of cases, particularly in Gaza, of violations of academic freedom. The consensus is that these professors are used as examples for others." Students know that classmates are paid to monitor them. Many students have been arrested and then later repeatedly visited by PA security forces.

Last June I had dinner with Bassam Eid in the courtyard of the American Colony Hotel in East Jerusalem, an idyllic oasis where nothing even hints at the passions that rage a few hundred metres away. Eid turned out to be a heavy smoker, nervous and fast-talking, anxious to tell his own story and frame it in precisely his own way. He believes human rights develop from the bottom up; they are seldom bestowed by those in authority. "You have to take human rights. No one will give them to you." He expressed contempt for the European Union, which gives vast sums of money to Palestinian leaders without any honest accounting.

Despite his resentment of the Israelis, he has no illusions about the virtues of the Palestinians. He wondered aloud who was more to blame for Arafat's crimes: Arafat, or the populace that tolerates and even reveres him? He said Palestinians fall into three categories. Those who support the Arafat gang out of self-interest, those who are apathetic, and the rest, who are afraid to speak.

Once he hoped that Palestinians could build a bridge of democracy to the Arab world. "But when the Palestinian Authority arrived, everybody just forgot about democracy." He believes all Palestinians have two faces, one they show each other, one they show the outside world. He tries to reveal the face that's usually hidden. Over dinner someone asked him, "Isn't there anything good you can say about your people?" His reply was chilling. "At the moment, no."



From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 February 2004 11:38 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Third thread on the topic. I guess it is not so rarely talked about.

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=0007608&t=000760

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000759

[ 03 February 2004: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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Babbler # 3877

posted 03 February 2004 11:41 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
sorry I didn't pay attention
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 03 February 2004 11:43 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is a very common phenomenon when occupation or oppression fester for a long time. Remember Winnie Mandela's thugs? Or the rough justice meted out by the IRA, against drug dealers and other delinquents?
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 03 February 2004 12:17 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Three years ago he lost some supporters in Israel by claiming that rock-throwing constitutes "non-violent resistance," though rocks have killed more than 10 Israelis.

Is this true? I've often seen rock-throwing described as an innocent schoolboy thing — like having a snowball fight — and thus any forceful response to it is treated as outrageous and barbaric.

Now I'm not saying "everything's OK", but I do find it interesting to note that the rocks are in fact killing people.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 03 February 2004 12:30 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rocks are killing people and not just in Israel.

You cetainly can't call it inoccent or harmless. There are cases all over the world when rock throwing has killed people

and I remember a couple years back where 2 young british school boys were convicted of stoning a 3 year old to death. I geuss these we to nice boys just playing around the meant no harm.

Rocks Kill Period there is nothing inocent about it.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 03 February 2004 12:56 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, if we just register all the rocks it should only cost about a billion trillion dollars . . .


Seriously, we're talking about the dichotimy between a child with a rock and a soldier in a tank. No one is suggesting there is no danger in rocks, but if you're going to try and make some kind of equation you can get bent.

Oh, and I've got a good way to make sure the problem never comes up again. Get the IOF out of Palestinian communities.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 03 February 2004 01:03 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Seriously, we're talking about the dichotimy between a child with a rock and a soldier in a tank.

Well, clearly the soldiers can't always be inside of a tank, or there would be 0 dead Israelis at the hands of rocks, right? For that matter, I doubt that the rock is always thrown by a child. But at any rate, what exactly is an individual soldier supposed to do, within the constraints of military action? He or she can't simply "run away", nor put down their weapon in some trite attempt at fairness. So... how to not get killed by a rock?

quote:
Oh, and I've got a good way to make sure the problem never comes up again. Get the IOF out of Palestinian communities.

And I've got a solution for drug addiction: stop taking drugs! I'm sure the world could use our clarity of thought right now.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 February 2004 01:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Linner:

Oh, and I've got a good way to make sure the problem never comes up again. Get the IOF out of Palestinian communities.



Firstly its the IDF not IOF (and yes I understand what you are trying to do but it is untruthful.

Secondly, my guess is that once the homicide bombings and the subsequent murder of Israelis stop the IDF will leave those Palestinian communities.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 February 2004 01:11 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

my guess is that once the homicide bombings and the subsequent murder of Israelis stop the IDF will leave those Palestinian communities.


Good one Mish. There were no suicide bombers for over a quarter of a century, and Israel did not leave.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 03 February 2004 01:14 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Get the IOF out of Palestinian communities.

I'm not convinced this would guarantee peace.

quote:
Secondly, my guess is that once the homicide bombings and the subsequent murder of Israelis stop the IDF will leave those Palestinian communities.

Nor am I convinced this would. In fact, I suspect that any "Oh, if only they...." solution would, in fact, not bring about a lasting peace.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 03 February 2004 01:25 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Seriously, we're talking about the dichotomy between a child with a rock and a soldier in a tank. No one is suggesting there is no danger in rocks, but if you're going to try and make some kind of equation you can get bent.

No I'm not trying to make equation just as you can't compare between homicide bomber who goes on bus to intentionally kill anyone and innocent children killed by IDF in the process of trying to catch a know terrorist.

Now I'm not defending the IDF in this case it does not make their actions justified. A killing of an innocent child is the killing of innocent child and is horribly wrong in both cases. How ever there is horrible and even more horrible.

I already argued this with Jewish students at York who accused me of equating suicide bombings to the IDF which was trying to defend the citizens of its country.

I told them not every action is justifiable and that the killing of innocents is wrong whether intentionally or unintentionally.

[ 03 February 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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posted 03 February 2004 01:32 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, clearly the soldiers can't always be inside of a tank, or there would be 0 dead Israelis at the hands of rocks, right? For that matter, I doubt that the rock is always thrown by a child. But at any rate, what exactly is an individual soldier supposed to do, within the constraints of military action? He or she can't simply "run away", nor put down their weapon in some trite attempt at fairness. So... how to not get killed by a rock?

Obviously Magoo has never heard of proportional response. Once in a blue moon a rock will hit someone and they die, but by and large, they're not considered lethal.
The majority of the time the IDF stay in their armoured vehicles, venturing out for a raid or two while they enforce curfew and closure. The ones who are exposed the most tend to be those who man the checkpoints.
Now you would think that these IOF troops would be dropping like flies, being exposed to these "deadly" rocks. But that's simply not the case, considering that the checkpoints are well guarded and heavily fortified, not to mention the fact that the range of a bullet far greater exceeds that of a stone.


From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 03 February 2004 02:59 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Obviously Magoo has never heard of proportional response. Once in a blue moon a rock will hit someone and they die, but by and large, they're not considered lethal.

Interesting you'd mention proportional response. Since 2000, 3 Palestinians have been killed by non-lethal rubber bullets, and another 16 by non-lethal tear gas. Unexpected what non-lethal things can sometimes do, eh?

quote:
Now you would think that these IOF troops would be dropping like flies

I wouldn't. After all, just a few posts up I expressed surprise that Palestinian rock throwers had even managed to kill 10. But it's interesting to wonder just how lethal these rocks could be if Israel didn't have the tanks and the heavily fortified and well guarded checkpoints and the like. If rocks can kill 10 soldiers even with all that technology and armament, who knows what they could do without, eh?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 February 2004 03:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:

Good one Mish. There were no suicide bombers for over a quarter of a century, and Israel did not leave.


In the years leading up to the Camp david Accords there was indeed much less presence of Israel in the PA.

However states dont just happen. there has to be a reliable partner with whom to negotiate. Barak was willing ...Arafat was not...that then becomes Israel's fault...Only on Babble you say? Pity...


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 03 February 2004 03:52 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Only on Babble you say? Pity...

If you hate it so much here, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. I'm really sick of this kind of bullshit. No, it's not against babble rules, and I'm speaking as a member, not as a moderator. But you know, Mishei, sometimes you can be really obnoxious.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 03 February 2004 03:54 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
word.

also: there are enough threads on this already.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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