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Author Topic: The UN and the Jews
Mishei
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posted 02 February 2004 05:24 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An excellent analysis of the UN its dealings with antisemitism and Zionism.

Commentary

Click on the article noted above by Anne Bayefsky

[ 02 February 2004: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 02 February 2004 05:26 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry there, Mishei, but all that comes up is an error message. But since the article's from Commentary, it's just as well.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 02 February 2004 05:27 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Won't come up but Commentary is a neo-conservative rag. I doubt the analysis has much depth. Didn't Commentary's editor argue during the first Likud government that American Jews should support whatever the Israeli government does unconditionally and it is not for them to criticise (a view he suspended once the Rabin government was elected).
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 February 2004 05:27 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
Sorry there, Mishei, but all that comes up is an error message. But since the article's from Commentary, it's just as well.

Thanks for your judgement before even reading the article. I have fixed the link.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 02 February 2004 05:30 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Still won't come up. Is it safe to assume this article isn't condemning the UN's vote to create the state of Israel in the first place?
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 02 February 2004 05:30 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Won't come up but Commentary is a neo-conservative rag. I doubt the analysis has much depth. Didn't Commentary's editor argue during the first Likud government that American Jews should support whatever the Israeli government does unconditionally and it is not for them to criticise (a view he suspended once the Rabin government was elected).
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 February 2004 07:41 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have no troble accessing it now. The column is in pdf format so you will need Adobe acrobat to read it.

Gotta love people who make judgements and assumptions based on not reading the article or knowing a thing about the author...


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 02 February 2004 08:59 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
I have no troble accessing it now. The column is in pdf format so you will need Adobe acrobat to read it.

Gotta love people who make judgements and assumptions based on not reading the article or knowing a thing about the author...


Yes Mishei, I'm sure the next time someone posts an article on Israel from Al Jazeera.net or Socialist Worker you won't approach it with any assumptions.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 February 2004 09:08 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft:

Yes Mishei, I'm sure the next time someone posts an article on Israel from Al Jazeera.net or Socialist Worker you won't approach it with any assumptions.



I still may have a built in bias but I would make no judgements until I at least read the piece. Even Al Jazeera can surprise at times

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 February 2004 11:03 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the article:

quote:
to anti-Semitism in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, the effort failed, thanks to the Soviet Union, its satellites, and its Arab allies, who among other things insisted that anti-Semitism was a question not of race but of religion.

You know, I can never get this straight.

People often argue against the validity of right-wing attacks on Judaism by conspicuously pointing out that "Judaism is a religion, not a race, and therefore any lines of argument that trash Judaism on a racial basis are therefore invalid".

Yet the author of this piece appears to want to have it both ways, by sneering at the Soviets et al. for arguing precisely the above point - that anti-Semitism was fundamentally about perceptions of a religious group as being "alien" and therefore "excisable" from a society.

The author of the piece therefore seems to fall into the very trap many people warned against when I read about this in the late 1980s/early 1990s - the notion that Judaism is a "race" with defined biological characteristics and all that balderdash and rot.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 February 2004 11:25 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doc , yes it is a bit of a failing with the piece. However people would be wise to understand antisemitism simply as Jew hatred. That was what Wilhelm Marr meant when he coined the term and it holds true today.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 03 February 2004 01:50 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is really F**KED up unless I misunderstood.

The only thing that it's not O.K. to discriminate is a race?

Religion it is O.K. sex and sexuality it is O.K.?

And finally it's O.K. to discriminate against nations?

I wonder assuming both Israelis and Palestinians are nations (because I certainly don't think you can call them races) and assuming we don't discriminate against any nation. And assuming all nations and all groups of peoples have them same rights.

Then is it so hard to accept that a compromise is essential because both nations have a right to a national home land?

[ 03 February 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 February 2004 12:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For all you racialists out there, guess what? Arabs aren't even Arabs!

Go crazy with it.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 03 February 2004 12:37 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who cares whether you're really of this race or that. This thread sounds to me a lot like racial profiling now.

Does it matter with which group of people I identify with? Shouldn't all groups have equal rights and not be discriminated against.

I argue with right wing Jews all the time who say there is a majority of Palestinians in Jordan and therefore all Palestinians should live in Jordan.

I say it's irrelevant all that matters is that this is the way this group of people sees themselves and they should have the same rights as any other group.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DownTheRoad
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posted 03 February 2004 12:38 PM      Profile for DownTheRoad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good lord, check out the author's website.
quote:
Now it isn't necessary to attribute intense anal-oral fixation to the race of Janet Jackson, nor amoral avarice to the race of the producers. These things speak eloquently for themselves.

quote:
History has shown that sex, out of control, disintegrates a society. Laws are indeed necesssary to protect vice-ridden greed breeders. "Whore mongers" the pimps were called in old English. In a way, the homosexual enterprise itself is another kind of whore mongering. They want anything and everything to be "legal," and therefore accepted as "right." I'd call that selling sex, to the government.


From: land of cotton | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 03 February 2004 01:28 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei,
I have not read the article. You should dig up what you can on the U.N. Durban hatefest that was occuring shortly before or after 9/11. Talk about delibrate and calculated.
Notice, too, how the posters are coming round. They are coming to terms with the idea that Israel exists.
quote:

Mycroft
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Babbler # 2230
posted 02 February 2004 05:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still won't come up. Is it safe to assume this article isn't condemning the UN's vote to create the state of Israel in the first place?

The decision was made to create Israel and it still stands. Sadly, only its destruction or full surrendor (or expressing attitudes that it shouldn't exist at all) intoxicates and satisfies the ignorant masses. Sooner or later the idea that, as Cueball put it, it takes two to tango, or the idea that Israel isn't the sole detractor in this issue, will seep in. And don't be too offended when posters accuse you of maintaining or holding 'cherished ideologies' or whatever. They suffer too.


From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 February 2004 01:46 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
caoimhin, any idiot can look at my posts and see that at all times I have pointed out that I am not in favor of the destruction of Israel.

So, please knock off the patronizing BS, as exemplified below:

quote:
Notice, too, how the posters are coming round. They are coming to terms with the idea that Israel exists.

From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 03 February 2004 02:07 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
Dr. Conway, if thats what it takes for people to see the error in their ways, so be it. The mere mention of anything suggesting Israel ought not be solely responsible for the suffering of Palestinians is met with hostility. You get knee jerk, "Oh, yea. I guess it must be those racist Arabs, right?", or, "The Arabs are to blame. Its all the Arabs fault. The Arabs are racists." popping up. It is puzzling but not surprising.
From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 03 February 2004 02:14 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Dr. Conway, if thats what it takes for people to see the error in their ways, so be it. The mere mention of anything suggesting Israel ought not be solely responsible for the suffering of Palestinians is met with hostility. You get knee jerk, "Oh, yea. I guess it must be those racist Arabs, right?", or, "The Arabs are to blame. Its all the Arabs fault. The Arabs are racists." popping up. It is puzzling but not surprising.
This is because we are continuously bombarded.

From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 03 February 2004 04:50 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please provide one piece of evidence from anywhere, on this forum or by any reputable leftist organization, that has ever suggested the Palestinians have been well-served by the Arab states. One.

When you can't, drop this line and focus on the fact that it is the occupation that is destroying lives right now.

Such dishonest practices are not worthy of the people of Israel.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 03 February 2004 05:29 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Can you point to just one article from a reputable leftist organization that admits the Palestinians have not been well served by the Arab states, and does not go on to conclude that it's still all Israel's fault?

I thought the recent rabble article about the Palestinian refugee camps in Jordan was a good attempt, but in the end the conclusion was the same. Yes the Jordanians treat the Palestinians poorly, but it's still all Israel's fault.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 03 February 2004 05:33 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What sort of thing do you want? It's a truism to say that the Palestinians in the camps would not be suffering were it not for Israel. And even Edward Said was scathing in his criticism of Arab states.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 03 February 2004 05:36 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
worker drone:

Those are Israeli, not Jordanian or Egyptian, tanks in Palestinian communities. Those are Israeli bulldozers tearing down homes. Those are Israelis building that damnable wall, stealing Palestinian land. It is Israelis who are building settlements on Palestinian land. It is the government of Israeli that has torn apart Palestinian roads and turned their communities into prisons.

None of this mitigates what Arab govenments have done, but neither does anything they have done in any way change the fact that it is Israel that is continually perpetuating an illegal and immoral campaign of occupation and colonization. And look up any of a number of articles on this linkto find criticisms of Arab policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 03 February 2004 06:15 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's a truism to say that the Palestinians in the camps would not be suffering were it not for Israel.

It's just as much as truism to say that there would not be Palestinian refugee camps in Jordan had not Jordan gone to war against Israel in 1948. And it's also a truism that the Palestinians might have a state of their own today had they not been prevented from doing so when Gaza and the West Bank were in Jordanian hands. And it's also a truism that Palestinians would not be suffering in Jordanian refugee camps if Jordan made an honest attempt to integrate and absorb them into their country, rather than keep them in squalor as a tool to bludgeon Israel with.

Now matter who is to "blame" for the plight of the Palestinians I would agree that it's now the responsibility of Israel to see it get resolved. But that shouldn't allow any of the other guilty parties to get away with the "it's all Israel's fault, we're blameless" routine either.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 03 February 2004 06:36 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that Benny Morris would like to dispute your assertion about the hypothetical non-existence of Palestinian refugee camps had it not been for Jordan.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 03 February 2004 06:47 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Benny Morris? I thought he had turned into a racist, ethnic cleansing advocating, apologist for Ariel Sharon?
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 03 February 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Precisely. WHOOSH.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 03 February 2004 08:03 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by worker_drone:
Benny Morris? I thought he had turned into a racist, ethnic cleansing advocating, apologist for Ariel Sharon?

Yeah. But he has the guts to say "well, it's all true, we did victimize them, we did ethnically cleanse them . . . but tough shit" rather than pretend it never happened. Evil, yes, but at least relatively truthful. Whereas there seem to be some on these boards who, having picked their side, are so afraid of not feeling lily-white that they carefully ignore all the actual facts of what's being done for their cause, hoping that deliberate ignorance is the same as virtue.
Hint: it isn't, it just combines evil with moral cowardice.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 03 February 2004 08:08 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Define "evil"
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 February 2004 08:43 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And it's also a truism that the Palestinians might have a state of their own today had they not been prevented from doing so when Gaza and the West Bank were in Jordanian hands.

Could you give us the dates, true or otherwise, when Gaza was in Jordanian hands?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 03 February 2004 11:46 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Could you give us the dates, true or otherwise, when Gaza was in Jordanian hands?

My mistake. Gaza was never in Jordanian hands, it was occupied by the Egyptians.

You surprise me though Al, since when have you ever been interested in the truth?

[ 03 February 2004: Message edited by: worker_drone ]


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 February 2004 11:57 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by caoimhin:
Dr. Conway, if thats what it takes for people to see the error in their ways, so be it.

I think you're still missing the point. You're taking credit for an alleged change in attitude when there never was the attitude that Israel should be destroyed in the first place, except for one or two people who don't come around anymore.

Would you like me to be as snotty to you about science? I thought not.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 04 February 2004 12:07 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You surprise me though Al, since when have you ever been interested in the truth?

This is below the belt and a cheap shot. At least have the gall to come right out and call folks liars instead of beating around the bush.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 February 2004 12:33 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
C'mon, Scout.

A blanket smear without any substance is far easier done than to point to a specific example and say "This is a lie."

It is kinda funny, though, especially as the accuser was just caught describing a fabrication as a "truism."

[ 04 February 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 04 February 2004 01:37 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
My apologies, DrConway. Thank you for the reminder.
From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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