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Author Topic: Sharon orders the dismantling of 17 settlements!
Briguy
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posted 02 February 2004 09:37 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can peace happen? Maybe.

quote:
"It is my intention to carry out an evacuation - sorry, a relocation - of settlements that cause us problems and of places that we will not hold onto anyway in a final settlement, like the Gaza settlements," the prime minister added.

Sharon, who informed the Likud faction of the plan at a closed-doors meeting later Monday, also mentioned the problematic nature of evacuating settlements in Gaza.


I assume this would include the settlement responsible for the most bloodshed on both sides - Netzarim. Hopefully, Sharon is actually planning to act on this and is not pulling a Bush (say one thing, do the opposite). What does he mean by 'relocation', anyways?

quote:
Sharon has previously said that if there is no progress in attempts to reach an agreement with the Palestinians, then he will embark on a program of unilateral disengagement. Until now, the prime minister has been short on details, although he has said that the plan would require the relocation of some isolated settlements.

There has also been speculation that the separation fence Israel is building inside the West Bank could serve as a border in the disengagement plan.


But it's not a permanent border...it's just a security fence.

Edited to add another perspective:

Mail and Guardian story

quote:
Zvi Hendel, an Israeli lawmaker and Gaza settler, accused Sharon of trying to deflect attention from various corruption probes against the prime minister and his two sons.

"I said several weeks ago that the intensity of the [corruption] investigations would equal the intensity of the uprooting of settlements," Hendel told Israel Radio.

An umbrella group of Gaza settlements said it would try to topple Sharon, a patron of the settlement movement throughout his career.

Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said no decision has been made on dismantling Gaza settlements, and that he opposes unilateral steps.

"This subject has to come to Cabinet decision and Knesset decision," Shalom said.

Leaders of the moderate opposition said they doubted Sharon would remove any settlements.

"Planning is not implementing," said opposition leader Shimon Peres.


[ 02 February 2004: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 02 February 2004 11:33 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Blah, blah, blah. More WORDS from the master of delay. Wake me up when there's some ACTION. He still uses any excuse to negotiate. It's now up to three years of excuses. He just wants to run out the clock until he resigns, is defeated, or dies.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 February 2004 12:59 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
Blah, blah, blah. More WORDS from the master of delay. Wake me up when there's some ACTION. He still uses any excuse to negotiate. It's now up to three years of excuses. He just wants to run out the clock until he resigns, is defeated, or dies.

This does seem like a positive move. With attittudes like Josh or those who advocate an end to the Jewish state positive indications are more necessary than ever.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 February 2004 01:15 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It does enter into a realm that Likudniks are not known for - using the carrot with the stick. I guess we'll know for sure this summer if Sharon is serious, or if he's just trying to push the corruption story out of the headlines.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 February 2004 01:34 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon's stalling.

And not only on this issue

quote:

Israel has asked the U.S. administration to postpone publication of the State Department's annual report on human rights around the world, fearing it will be used against Israel in the discussion on the separation fence at the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

The report is expected to harshly criticize the operation of the fence and the humanitarian suffering it causes the Palestinians, and Israel wants the State Department document to see the light only after the ICJ discussion to prevent it from having any influence over the judges.



From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 02 February 2004 01:57 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For how long have we been saying "Pay no attention to what Sharon says, watch what he does"?
I don't think there's any news here at all. When he removes a settlement--and it stays gone--I'll say good job war criminal, I really didn't think you had it in you. Until then, I really don't think he has it in him.

From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 February 2004 03:02 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
East Germany used to try and claim that its (very walled) "border" was an actual international boundary, because they knew and the Soviets knew that the likelihood of a "Socialist Germany" surviving once unified was rather slim.

Guess what? The wall fell anyway.

Sharon should take that to heart.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 February 2004 03:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
East Germany used to try and claim that its (very walled) "border" was an actual international boundary, because they knew and the Soviets knew that the likelihood of a "Socialist Germany" surviving once unified was rather slim.

Guess what? The wall fell anyway.

Sharon should take that to heart.


Difference was that no West Germans were strapping dynamite on to their bodies and walking into East German cafes , restarants, buses, and community centres to murder them.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 02 February 2004 03:49 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Right Mishei. That's the only difference. An illegal, bloody, colonizing effort is of course of no consequence.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 February 2004 03:56 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
8 posts! A new record!
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 February 2004 10:44 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei...

As trite as it sounds, *WOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!*

Sailed clear over your head and kersplashed into Hudson's Bay somewhere over by Ungava.

You have failed to understand that East Germany tried to make its wall as "solid" and as immovable as possible.

Yet it failed.

What makes you think Israel's wall will be any more enduring?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 February 2004 11:34 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Mishei...

As trite as it sounds, *WOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!*

Sailed clear over your head and kersplashed into Hudson's Bay somewhere over by Ungava.

You have failed to understand that East Germany tried to make its wall as "solid" and as immovable as possible.

Yet it failed.

What makes you think Israel's wall will be any more enduring?



Doc dont be such an ass...I knew precisely what was meant. What many here refuse to understand is that the anti-terrorism fence is for the purpose of protection and not border delineation.

Why was Sharon and many others from both the left and right at first opposed to the fence? Think hard folks.

Israelis were being murdered by terrorists in the WB and Gaza. The Israeli people were demanding protection. The fence offers it to a degree not offered before.

I know that many of you here hate anything Israeli with so much passion it clouds your reason. And I am opposed to the placement of certain parts of the fence. However there is no doubt that your arguments demonizing Israel as so evil matters not a whit if the fence saves lives.

So blather all you want. I will take the life of innocent people over your rhetoric any day. And if the fence eventually serves its purpose and leads to fewer terrorist murders then maybe we can get to the negotiations and then maybe just maybe there will be no more need for a fence.

That is my hope and I know the hope of virtually every Israeli I have spoken with about this issue.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 February 2004 11:51 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, the East Germans used to call the Berlin Wall the "Anti-Fascist Protection Wall".

Now THERE's a misnomer if I ever heard one.

Right up there with your "security fence" balderdash.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 03 February 2004 12:01 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
As always ignoring the reasons for the conflict in the first place. This wall will be a memorial to Israeli immorality in a few years.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 February 2004 12:17 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No Bubbles this type of thread will be a memorial to anti-Israel hatred.

You (pl) cannot even deal with the fact that the fence saves lives...you wont even entertain the psossibility because then it becomes way to real and no longer political.

So as I said carry on with your animus towards Israel...I will settle for the safety the fence provides and the lives it saves.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 03 February 2004 12:19 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The fence is not intended for safety.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 03 February 2004 12:43 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You may not believe it Mishei, but I am against that wall for more than a few reasons, and alot of them have to do with the safety of Israeli citizens.

No wall will stop people willing to kill themselves to kill you. They will find a way. And if you put up a wall the islamists will see this as a challenge, not a deterrent. Especially when this wall is stealing land from communities that have depended on it for hundreds of years. Places I worked in like Kaffin and Jayouus have lost upwards of 70% of their farmland. 70%. The desperation in these peoples' eyes is palpable.

Walls cannot prevent terrorism. We live in the age of biological weapons and nerve agents, and a black market worth untold millions. Instead of killing ten people with a suicide bomb the fundamentalists will send a simple flare with a virus over the wall. They'll find a way to kill Israeli civilians.

Walls don't stop terrorism. Negotiations in good faith can. Reconciliation can. Working together can. Not engaging in equally horrific acts of terror against an occupied people can. But not a wall.

I want security for Israeli civilians. I want every Israeli citizen to live without fear of a terrorist attack. But I don't want this at the expense of the Palestinian people, I want it for all the people of Israel and Palestine.

I am beginning to think that this is where we differ.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 03 February 2004 01:16 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei

Do I see some self doubt entering into your mind? Maybe you are human afterall and not some committee, as I often thought.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 03 February 2004 04:22 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Will the fence save palestinian lives, Mishei? Do they ever enter into your equations?
From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 February 2004 08:43 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:
Will the fence save palestinian lives, Mishei? Do they ever enter into your equations?
Of course it will save Palestinian lives. My hope is that with a calmimng effect Sharon will have to begin the trek towards a solution. He has already announced that settlements in the Gaza will be dismantled. This is a huge political move for him and likely to bring on the wrath of the ultra right.

Nonetheless it must begin. Now if the PA can somehow stop Hamas et al from murdering Israelis we may be on to something here.

quote:
I want security for Israeli civilians. I want every Israeli citizen to live without fear of a terrorist attack. But I don't want this at the expense of the Palestinian people, I want it for all the people of Israel and Palestine.

I am beginning to think that this is where we differ.


I want a peaceful and productive Middle East that includes both a Palestinian state and a Jewish state. I want this potential garden of Eden to bloom once again. I want all people of both a Jewish and Palestinian state to live in peace and security. Isnt that what you want Thomas?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 03 February 2004 08:52 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nice derailing job.

So, does anyone think that Sharon is being sincere? I seem to recall him promising to dismantle the infamous settler outposts a while back. What did he do? Sent the IOF in to temporarily pull down the shacks of three outposts, and then stood by while they were rebuilt. Talk followed by minimal action. I have very little confidence that he will follow through on this latest declaration.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 February 2004 10:14 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"So, does anyone think that Sharon is being sincere?"

Not me. It's mostly for foreign (meaning U.S.) consumption. There's already a backing away as supposedly three northern gaza settlements may not be abandoned under the "plan." However, because the zealots do not consider Gaza as equivalent to "Judea and Samaria," this is one of Sharon's "promises" that might get filled, in part.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 03 February 2004 11:34 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perez offers Labor support if Sharon is serious

quote:
Speaking at the start of a Labor meeting on his fate of as interim party chairman, Peres congratulated Sharon on "adopting the policy of the Labor Party," but said that there had been no mention of Labor joining the coalition at a meeting between the two last week. Nor, said Peres, did the prime minister tell him anything about his plans for Gaza.

"Sharon's declarations have a cumulative weight," Peres said. "Another word, another declaration, another announcement, and this is already a path from which there is no turning back."

"If Sharon carries out his proposal I promise him our support in the Knesset, for as long as he travels on that path," the interim Labor leader said.

"When I heard of Sharon's plan I though to myself: If I were today a senior leader in the Likud, a Likud minister or member of the Likud, I would get up in the morning, travel to Jerusalem and go up to Yitzhak Rabin's grave on Mount Herzl, be silent for a moment and then say one thing only - I'm sorry."


Amen to that.

I really hope that Labor waits for concrete action before forming any sort of coalition.

quote:
Labor Knesset faction chair Dalia Itzik said Tuesday that "If and when Sharon makes an actual move, in which he truly dismantles all the settlements in Gaza and evacuates the Gaza Strip, I admit that it will be a problem for the Labor Party and its public to explain why in the face of such a dramatic step by a man of the Likud, a man of the right, this cannot leave the Labor Party apathetic on the outside."

Former Labor chairman Benjamin Ben-Eliezer told Army Radio on Tuesday that if it turns out that the prime minister is intent on implementing his disengagement plan, it will be very difficult for the Labor Party to remain outside of the government.

MK Avraham Burg, however, expressed his opposition to a unity government, saying, "we have to wait and see what he [Sharon] does, and even then, I will say that I do not want to join this government."



From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 February 2004 11:18 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The idea of "transfer" hasn't gone away.

Palestinians with Israeli citizenships have condemned as racist Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's proposal to exchange Arab towns in Israel for Jewish settlements on the occupied West Bank.

quote:
Sharon's plan is not new. The Labour party raised the idea 15 years ago. Sharon is pushing forward the process by trying to force the original inhabitants of Israel to give up their citizenships, depriving them of their political rights, said Bishara.

"This means getting rid of the Arabs as a demographic problem," he said, adding anywhere else in the world this would be perceived as racism.



From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 05 February 2004 09:49 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The other shoe falls. You just knew Sharon had something hidden in his size 52 pants:


"Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wants U.S. approval to expand large West Bank settlement blocs that are intended to be annexed once a permanent peace agreement is reached in exchange for evacuation of most settlements in the Gaza Strip and a few others in the West Bank.

Sharon will justify the request due to the need to move some of the settlers from the evacuated areas to Ma'aleh Adumim, Ariel and Gush Etzion. The prime minister is to present his plan to the Americans during an upcoming visit to Washington."

"Sharon has ordered Eiland to plan the evacuation of most Gaza settlements, but not to draw the planned security line according to the borders prior to the 1967 Six Day War. Therefore, three settlements in the northeast corner of Gaza - Nissanit, Eli Sinai and Dugit - which maintain territorial contiguity with Israel would not be moved."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/391357.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 07 February 2004 08:58 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon the Deceiver:


"Indeed, almost every week, and especially when he anticipates some form of personal embarrassment, Sharon lets fly with a new diversionary spin, which stays aloft for three days, promising both moderation, good faith and something the public can sink its teeth into - a prisoner exchange deal, some sort of "plan," a ground breaking trip, a festive speech, a new assurance. He has suddenly found the way to fight terrorism; the political breakthrough is just around the corner; the great conceptual revolution is here. But how many times have we counted to ten without anything happening?

How long will he go on deceiving the naive? Why should we believe his declaration this week about the evacuation of the Gaza Strip settlements, or put out trust in it? He has been wrong and led us astray so often, for so many years and on such a grandiose scale, that even now, as he changes direction, we have no guarantee that this isn't the same old behavior, based on the same distorted reading of reality, with the same shortsighted manipulation.

The thing is, though, that Sharon has taken suspension of disbelief to such a high level of frequency that it has become little short of an addiction. To refuel it, he needs ever larger doses of the stimulus and reaction drug, in terms of both the scale of the diversion and the holy rage in the light of the doubts and disbelief."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/391363.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 February 2004 07:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Note that Sharon has been talking all along of "moving" settlements, not dismantling them. The difference is now becoming clear: Sharon's plan is to move whole settlements from the Gaza Strip to the West Bank.

A Western reader may be appalled by the idea, but this is Israel: citizens are not autonomous subjects with dignity and rights, but mere pawns in the government's arsenal. The whole settlements policy is based on that: we put people where we like, be it a war zone if needed; we won't let them go even if they want to (see previous column); and we redeploy them elsewhere whenever necessary. Almost all the Gaza settlements where created by Sharon following the Israeli withdrawal from Sinai in 1982; many settlers moved there from Sinai. Now they should be moved elsewhere; they were informed about it exclusively by the Israeli media.


Sharon's Escape from Alcatraz


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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