babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Canada vs. Israel

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Canada vs. Israel
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 18 January 2004 09:30 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm just curious. Do people think that First Nations have the same right to all of Canada that some people think that Palestinians have to all of Israel? If so, should all of us who are Canadians born but of non-Native descent have to start packing our bags and seeing if England and France etc... will let us all repatriate en masse?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 January 2004 10:30 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think most people who do not support the two-state solution to the occupation in Israel/West Bank support the one-state solution. Neither of which involves kicking Jews out of Israel.

Those who support the two-state solution want to see both peoples living in the area, separately, with different governments based on either religion or ethnicity. Those who support a one-state solution want to see both peoples living in the area, together, with one government that does not discriminate, nor hold one ethnicity or religion over the other. When they say Palestinians have the right to all of Israel, I get the feeling they mean that Palestinians have the right to live anywhere they want in Israel, and all Palestinians should have the right of return. That doesn't mean kicking Jews out. That means integrating.

So I'm not sure how your analogy works, at least for those arguing this issue on babble. As a person who likes the one-state solution best personally, I would be least like your analogy - I wouldn't want anyone to have to go anywhere.

[ 18 January 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 18 January 2004 10:45 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Those who support a one-state solution want to see both peoples living in the area, together, with one government that does not discriminate, nor hold one ethnicity or religion over the other. When they say Palestinians have the right to all of Israel, I get the feeling they mean that Palestinians have the right to live anywhere they want in Israel, and all Palestinians should have the right of return. That doesn't mean kicking Jews out. That means integrating.

Do you really think that Islamic Jihad and Hamas would satisfied with some pluralistic liberal democracy where there is no state religion and where there is no Islamic law ruling everyone? Wouldn't that defeat the whole cause they are fighting for?

I would like a one state solution on paper, but I'm afraid that it would dissolve into a Lebanese type civil war. Lebanon was supposed to be one state with a 50/50 division of power between Christians and Muslims. Of course this was one reason why there was a 40 year period where no census was ever conducted because the political ramifications of any shift in the population balance would be too drastic. In one state, how do you make sure that whoever has 51% of the population doesn't get 100% of the power?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 18 January 2004 10:49 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm just curious. Do people think that First Nations have the same right to all of Canada that some people think that Palestinians have to all of Israel? If so, should all of us who are Canadians born but of non-Native descent have to start packing our bags and seeing if England and France etc... will let us all repatriate en masse?]

Indignant and hissy.

[ 18 January 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 18 January 2004 10:58 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Define "hissy"
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 18 January 2004 10:59 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I'm just curious. Do people think that First Nations have the same right to all of Canada that some people think that Palestinians have to all of Israel?

Has anybody argued that position on babble?


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 18 January 2004 11:50 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I think that is a fair analogy, although not to Canada today. Moreso to Canada in the eighteenth century, maybe. In any case, the relevent principle is that while assigning blame is interesting in a historical context, dealing with the present is another matter.

Certainly it would have been better for the First Nations if the Europeans had never come, and likewise for the Palestinians and Jewish immigrants, but the fact is that what happened, happened, and now the groups have to work together to live together. No other solution will lead to anything but suffering. I am always heartened when I see activists on both sides recognising this fact. It is just as futile for the Palestinians to speak of expelling Jews from a hypothetical Palestine, as it is for Israelis to speak of expelling Palestinians from their hypothetical Israel.

If they truly can't co-exist, then they are doomed, because dislocating millions of people is not only sheer folly, but an atrocity that the world should not tolerate. I don't think this is the case, however. Even if it may be true today, the coming generation will see that only one path lies before them, as it lies before all of us, that does not lead to misery. The path of forgiveness and co-operation.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 19 January 2004 12:04 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm just curious. Do people think that First Nations have the same right to all of Canada that some people think that Palestinians have to all of Israel?


Define "some people."

First Nations do have the same right to all of Canada as any other Canadian. It's not a perfect system, and it was created in part by a series of historical injustices, but we do our best with what we have.

We do better, moreover, than a mere bi-national state, as we function fairly well with First Nations, French Canadians, Anglo (and all the ethnicities contained within - I'm from three or four myself, none of which is British) Canadian and the multinational immigrants who can decide what they want to be.

If people can stop thinking of Palestine in zero sum terms - total victory for our side and expulsion for the other - and start looking for avenues of coexistence, the problems would diminish.

A binational state would critically weaken the support that Hamas now enjoys among the occupied, to cite but one positive possibility.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 19 January 2004 01:36 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Morality does change over time. What was tolerated in the past might not be tolerated now. Canibalism, slavery, humansacrifices, racism, and in that category is also colonialism. We recognize that now as sourse of conflict and aninjustice. (do behave towards others as you would want them to behave towards you) . How would you feel if some Martians came overhere and put you behind walls? I realize that not everything is reversable, as new generations with other values replace the old ones, and certainly the death cannot be returned but compensation can take other forms. The Germans did their penance with respect to the victims of the second world war. And now the Israelis are probably wise to do the same with respect to the Palistinians, because morally they have lost and in the end it will mean a military defeat too. In my opinion, unless they are prepaired now to seriously negociate from what strength they still have.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 19 January 2004 02:54 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Do you really think that Islamic Jihad and Hamas would satisfied with some pluralistic liberal democracy where there is no state religion and where there is no Islamic law ruling everyone? Wouldn't that defeat the whole cause they are fighting for?

Entirely correct. Groups like IJ & Hamas would undoubtedly keep fighting no matter what happens (though their base of support would massively dwindle should the intolerable injustices of everyday Palestinian life ever be alleviated). Similarly, the fanatical Jewish-fundamentalist settlers would refuse anything less than total Israeli control over "Judea & Samaria", and would probably violently attack their own government rather than give up those delusions (remember who it was who killed Rabin). Fortunately, those extremists represent small minorities of their respective populations.

quote:
I would like a one state solution on paper, but I'm afraid that it would dissolve into a Lebanese type civil war.

Maybe. No one has suggested that either a one- or two-state solution would come smoothly or easily. But does that mean that no attempt to achieve a settlement should be attempted? Should we just say, "Oh, it'll never work, it might go badly" and give up? Do you really want to give the extremists on both sides the satisfaction of derailing any hope of peace before it's even tried? Would that not mean, to borrow a weary cliche, that "the terrorists have won?"

As it stands now, both Israelis and Palestinians are rushing headlong towards the brink of an exceptionally tall and terrible cliff. True, yanking the steering wheel suddenly to the side might lead over some rough, difficult and uncharted terrain, but what other option is there?


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca