babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » The Bomber as Hero

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: The Bomber as Hero
Milo_Hayes
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4718

posted 16 January 2004 11:53 AM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
Ticket to Paradise

quote:
"It is not enough to call her a hero. Calling her hero does not give the whole truth. This woman abandoned her husband and children to win paradise," Zahar said in the eulogy.

quote:
"She is not going to be the last (attacker) because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe," Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar said.

Got that? Atheism is dead. Just get over it.


From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 16 January 2004 12:11 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
She is not going to be the last (attacker) because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe

Perhaps they intend to spend Arafat's alleged millions on some space exploration (should we be starting a new thread: "Palestinians on Mars — discuss").

My advice to them would be to begin on some other planet, because I don't know how many countries on this particular planet really want the Islamic flag replacing their own.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 16 January 2004 12:24 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And many wonder at the alleged parnoia of those here who support Israel. Ah yes this is just the ravings of a religious fanatic..meaningless really!!
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 16 January 2004 12:54 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A bit unilateral, no? Here is the story of a Palestinian teenaged (failed) suicide bomber whose family lashed out both at the Israeli army that had shot his brother and cousin and at Islamic Jihad for recruiting a teenager: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1124137,00.html

Mishei, I find your comment fails to understand how religious ideologies can function (be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim or other). Palestinians in the occupied territories find themselves in an untenable situation. Often people in such untenable situations turn to such "fanatical", eschatological beliefs.

Suicide bombing is wrong for a number of reasons, not just moral but political. Hamas and the Likudists need each other. They live on fear.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 16 January 2004 01:39 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
And many wonder at the alleged parnoia of those here who support Israel. Ah yes this is just the ravings of a religious fanatic..meaningless really!!
Meaningless indeed. If you can't contribute anything but a snide and sarcastic comment in the wake of such tragedy, why don't you just shut the fuck up?

Well put Lagatta. I have a really hard time balancing the responsibility for these terrible, terrible acts between the Israeli government and its IAF, and extremist groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

On the one hand, the brutal and murderous treatment of the Palestinian people by the State of Israel creates martyrs by directly producing an environment of such hopelessness and despair, they are surely most culpable in these horrific suicide bombings.

On the other hand, when extremist groups like Hamas cynically exploit the despair and grief of Palestinians - especially the young and idealistic - to wreck their own kind of havoc, grief and despair, and compound the misery of the Palestinian people, they are surely as responsible, if not more so, for the increased misery of those they claim they are fighting for.

Which is more morally offensive, creating hopelessness and despair, or exploiting it for cynical purposes? Impossible for me to say, though this week my personal outrage and disgust is reserved for Hamas and IJ, though I suppose that it no longer matter who has done what to whom. All that really matters is that people live in fear, misery and hatred and despair, for reasons that are, in every way, insupportable.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 02:01 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
On the one hand, the brutal and murderous treatment of the Palestinian people by the State of Israel creates martyrs by directly producing an environment of such hopelessness and despair, they are surely most culpable in these horrific suicide bombings.
On the other hand, when extremist groups like Hamas cynically exploit the despair and grief of Palestinians - especially the young and idealistic - to wreck their own kind of havoc, grief and despair, and compound the misery of the Palestinian people, they are surely as responsible, if not more so, for the increased misery of those they claim they are fighting for.

This is bullshit and utter nonsense although I do not support the Israeli use of force in the west bank and Gaza. The idea that suicide bombers come from backgrounds of despair holds little truth. There is increasing evidence that suicide bombers are well educated and come from middle class and upper middle class families the Hamas are even proud of this fact.
And there are many societies that have been treated far, far worse and lived in much more despair that did not to turn to violence especially not against civilians to promote their cause.

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 16 January 2004 02:11 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The idea that suicide bombers come from backgrounds of despair holds little truth. There is increasing evidence that suicide bombers are well educated and come from middle class and upper middle class families...

This may make more sense to you if you allow that there are more kinds of "despair" than simply that of economic poverty.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 02:19 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This may make more sense to you if you allow that there are more kinds of "despair" than simply that of economic poverty.

And so what if there is? Does this legitimize any campaign of terror? Anyways this kind of despair is the kind that activist and others like use for their propaganda and in order to apologize for suicide bombings

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 16 January 2004 02:24 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you're suggesting that despair (despair sufficient to create a suicide bomber from a normally non-violent individual) comes from living as a second-class citizen in an occupied country, then what Justice says about other countries may hold true.

My wife's family fled the occupation of Estonia many years ago, but left relatives behind. They hated the Soviets for taking over their country, giving the best of everything to ethnic Russians, and ruling them when they had no wish to be ruled. Certainly, material conditions notwithstanding, they would, or should, experience the same level of despair that any 'middle class' Palestinian would, and yet no suicide bombings.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 16 January 2004 02:55 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

And so what if there is? Does this legitimize any campaign of terror?

I said nothing of the kind.

"Terror" isn't simply defined either.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 16 January 2004 02:59 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rebecca West:
Meaningless indeed. If you can't contribute anything but a snide and sarcastic comment in the wake of such tragedy, why don't you just shut the fuck up?


No I dont think I will. Snide perhaps but for those who have lost friends and family to these terrorists and then to have to read some of the excuses offered here and elsewhere for their murderous behaviour...well excuse us for not meeting your lofty expectations.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 16 January 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
No I dont think I will. Snide perhaps but for those who have lost friends and family to these terrorists and then to have to read some of the excuses offered here and elsewhere for their murderous behaviour...well excuse us for not meeting your lofty expectations.
Excuse you for using the behavior of others to justify your inability to provide thoughtful and meaningful commentary? I think not. I doubt those who have died would thank you for using their deaths as an excuse for such petty and disrespectful commentary.
quote:
This is bullshit and utter nonsense although I do not support the Israeli use of force in the west bank and Gaza. The idea that suicide bombers come from backgrounds of despair holds little truth. There is increasing evidence that suicide bombers are well educated and come from middle class and upper middle class families the Hamas are even proud of this fact.
And there are many societies that have been treated far, far worse and lived in much more despair that did not to turn to violence especially not against civilians to promote their cause.
Are you suggesting that only those effected economically have a right to grief and despair? Do you think economic stability is somehow protection against having your child shot dead for throwing stones? Or are you suggesting that there is something unique to the Palestinian character that makes them more likely to become suicide bombers than, say, ANC supporters who targeted civilians in their campaign against the brutal apartheid regime? Does the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter lie in who they kill? How they kill? Or does it lie in the perspective of outsiders who cannot possibly know what it is to actually live under such extreme conditions, but apply such labels according to their own prejudices and narrow political agenda?

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 16 January 2004 03:19 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, an explanation is NOT an excuse.

Social scientists (and research scientists) are duty bound to explain all manner of unpleasant and downright heinous things, from the spread of AIDS to the rise of Nazism. Seeking to understand the roots of suicide bombing as a phenomenon is no insult to the memory of innocent civilians killed and maimed as a result of their actions. It is essential in order to find a solution.

The brother and cousin of the Palestinian teen suicide bomber who were killed by the IDF were mourned every bit as much by their families and friends as your Israeli friends were. Fortunately the parents of this young man were able to see beyond revenge and hatred, understanding that suicide bombing is not a solution to their people's plight.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 16 January 2004 03:40 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
And there are many societies that have been treated far, far worse and lived in much more despair that did not to turn to violence especially not against civilians to promote their cause.

Could you give us a list of those societies?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 16 January 2004 03:43 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Personally I see little difference between a Palestinian (of any class) that sees their family members killed by an IDF soldier and then stapping on the only effective weapon they have and going out and killing themselves a few of the "Israeli enemy", and an Israeli (of any class) that sees their family members killed by a Suicide bomber and "strapping on the only effect weapon" available to them (the IDF) and going out and killing a few of their "Palestinian enemy".

Israelis are luckier for sure in that they have a more effectivly deadly weapon, and that they don't have to kill themselves in order to operate that weapon . . . but that's about the only difference I see between the two sides.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 03:50 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Could you give us a list of those societies?

Tibetans

Jews in Russian or occupied Nazi Europe

And I never heard of any south Africans blowing themselves up.

Many revolutionary groups in south America

I'm sure there many others that even you can think of


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 04:06 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Personally I see little difference between a Palestinian (of any class) that sees their family members killed by an IDF soldier and then stapping on the only effective weapon they have and going out and killing themselves a few of the "Israeli enemy", and an Israeli (of any class) that sees their family members killed by a Suicide bomber and "strapping on the only effect weapon" available to them (the IDF) and going out and killing a few of their "Palestinian enemy".
Israelis are luckier for sure in that they have a more effectivly deadly weapon, and that they don't have to kill themselves in order to operate that weapon . . . but that's about the only difference I see between the two sides.

Your right there is little difference when it comes to who's killing is more justified however is important to point out that the Israelis have used very small amount and with great restraint there arsenal whether or not is was used appropriately or not can be debated however in comparison to most other countries or militant organizations including those of the Palestinians it is hard for me to believe that there would be someone who would use less in that position. In fact I truly do believe that if the Palestinians had they Israeli arsenal Israeli casualties would be far greater by now and there lies a big difference.
You don't here many Israeli saying lets conquer the world or the even the whole of the mid east. It is impossible to say that the way the Israel defense forces have used force there objective is to ethnically cleanse.

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 16 January 2004 04:18 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tibetans - unfortunately I know very little about this society. Does another babbler?

"Jews in Russian or occupied Nazi Europe" -

False. Jews were in the forefront of revolutionary struggles in Russia - a fact that was used against them in the "Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy" discourse, when it was a quite normal matter of an oppressed people reacting to pervasive injustce.

Many Jews took part in resistance movements throughout Nazi-occupied Europe.

"And I never heard of any south Africans blowing themselves up".

There were many acts of violent resistance against apartheid by South Africans.

"Many revolutionary groups in south America"

???? Revolutionary groups usually did combine various forms of guerrilla warfare with mass work aimed at organising workers and/or peasants, and the urban poor (depending on the makeup of the different societies).


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 16 January 2004 04:37 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Tibetans - unfortunately I know very little about this society. Does another babbler?

The Tibetans had an army that was pretty much obliterated by the Chinese when they invaded.

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: paxamillion ]


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 16 January 2004 04:39 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
My advice to them would be to begin on some other planet, because I don't know how many countries on this particular planet really want the Islamic flag replacing their own.

There's an "Islamic" flag?! REALLY?!

Someone didn't send me my fucking memo!

Please show me an "Islamic" flag, Mr. Magoo. I would hate to be deficient in my knowledge of the world, seeing as I appear to have been far too wrapped up in the Promethean heights of nuclear science.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 16 January 2004 04:44 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please show me an "Islamic" flag, Mr. Magoo.

Why are you demanding this of me?

I've never heard of one either, but I'm just following the quote from Mahmoud Zahar at the top. If he says there is one, then who am I to argue?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 04:49 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
False. Jews were in the forefront of revolutionary struggles in Russia - a fact that was used against them in the "Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy" discourse, when it was a quite normal matter of an oppressed people reacting to pervasive injustice

It's not the question of who was head of the revolution the question is how was the revolution fought out did they attack civilian targets?

In nazi occupied Europe the there was also a rebellion but relatively to the amount of Jews that were killed this was nothing and hardly deserves a mention.

quote:
There were many acts of violent resistance against apartheid by South Africans.

do they involve killing innocent people deliberately? Even the IRA has had the moral debate about who to target?

quote:
???? Revolutionary groups usually did combine various forms of guerrilla warfare with mass work aimed at organising workers and/or peasants, and the urban poor (depending on the makeup of the different societies).

once again did they involve attacking innocent targets deliberately?

The point is you hear groups like these saying get those bastards out of our lands but usually not say that those on the other side are evil demons and every last man women and child deserves to die.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 16 January 2004 04:52 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:

Tibetans

Jews in Russian or occupied Nazi Europe

And I never heard of any south Africans blowing themselves up.

Many revolutionary groups in south America

I'm sure there many others that even you can think of


Tibetans are a good example, but, I think, indicative of a societal norm. Jewish resistance fighters did use violence, and did kill civilians, though I certainly would not characterize them as terrorists.
Imperialist Great Britain was the enemy of the Stern Gang, who assasinated British civilians in Europe during the war, and those they considered Jewish "collaborators" in Palestine, and even attempted to negotiate with the Nazis for a Jewish homeland in Palestine after the war. The Jewish Defense League has often been referred to as a terrorist organization and so-called "Jewish Mafia".

I did not say the ANC blew themselves up. But they did use violence against civilians, most notably against "spies" and members of the Inkatha Freedom Party, though certainly not by the means or to the extent that Palestinian extremists have. Even so, I would not consider the ANC, during the apartheid era, terrorists.

As far as South America goes, some of the most violent and extreme "revolutionary groups" in the world are in Latin American countries. They specifically target civilians, though I do not believe they use suicide bombing as a tactic. Read up on the Maoist Shining Path Guerrillas...charming bunch.

Throughout the world, civilians are used as pawns, and are the victims in massacres committed by various resistance groups, counter-insurgency organizations, freedom-fighters, revolutionaries, whatever the hell you want to call them. Meeting violent and genocial oppression with peaceful resistance tends to be the exception, not the rule throughout history. Non-combatants traditionally pay the highest price during any armed conflict. Your suggestion that this may, in some way, be particular to the Palestinian struggle or to Arabs in general is bordering on racist.

Edited to add: Fuck that. It IS racist.

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 05:00 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not naive I did not say a use of force I never justified.

the point is to kill an innocent person is despicable.

to deliberately kill a civilian is even more despicable.

and to deliberately kill yourself along with other civilians is probably one of the most selfish despicable thing I can think of.

Once again the question it's not whether or not to use force or is the force justified but how the force should be used.

Nothing in my mind justifies killing civilians deliberatley or using them as pawns.

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 16 January 2004 05:31 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The idea that suicide bombers come from backgrounds of despair holds little truth. There is increasing evidence that suicide bombers are well educated and come from middle class and upper middle class families the Hamas are even proud of this fact.

Can you please link to, or cite some of this purported 'evidence' please? Moreover, why does it matter what class you come from? Politics is not only economic - though that has a big part in it.
Specifically, the politics of 'nationhood' is almost always in part about covering over the class divides that exist in a society: rich or poor, they are all Palestinians according to the nationalist trope. Should rich Jews be less inclined to Zionism then poor ones?

All of this is really about rights. The 'right' to violence, and the more general rights accorded to human beings. The Palestinians (rich and poor) find themselves existing outside and below the law. They are kept in a position where their simple demand for equality is treated as a negotiable item. By the very fact that it needs to be 'demanded' it is clear that this equality is not conferred. They are systematically denied the basic rights that come with state protection (citizenship) and nationality and the protection of international law which has also codified basic inalienable human rights. They are juridically not full people. From this position - where there is no possibility of redress through civil 'law' (or international law which Israel also ignores) you are also asking them to give up the one form of action which exists in such a 'lawless' condition to resist and protect themselves - i.e. violence. In other words, you are asking a people who have had rights violently denied to them, and have had their bodies and property become subject to any and all violence by Israel to act in a manner conforming to civil reciprocity that doesn't actually exist for them.

They are denied access to the positive protection of the law, however you want them to circumscribe themselves in reciprocity to a system that doesn't count them as full people. The law leaves them open to violence, which is daily visited on them, but they are simultaneously disallowed the right to violently resist.

Ridiculous! As usual, your purported 'neutrality' is actually a vote in favour of Israeli violence (though you will scream that you denounce it regardless of the fact that your denunciations do nothing to make it stop) though carefully masked.

quote:
And there are many societies that have been treated far, far worse and lived in much more despair that did not to turn to violence especially not against civilians to promote their cause.

Yeah, there was once this group - called the 'Jews' - and they were in a position of despair, and wouldn't you know it, they took their frustrations out on hundreds of thousands of civilians called 'the Palestinians'. What's good for the goose?

But either way, how do you measure despair against despair, Justice? Do you have a formula? Maybe these others you speak of should have resisted. Maybe the specific constellation of forces saw to it that they couldn't resist. Frankly, your's is a ridiculous statement because it simply ignores any concrete analysis of both the conditions that Palestinians find themselves in, but the positions of 'despair' that others have found themselves in and whether or not those positions called for, or allowed violent resistence.

Does a hostage owe their kidnapper any moral obligation?

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 16 January 2004 05:40 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In nazi occupied Europe the there was also a rebellion but relatively to the amount of Jews that were killed this was nothing and hardly deserves a mention.

This is ridiculous. The question was whether or not violent resistence was used by certain oppressed groups - not the scale of the oppression or the resistence.

But since you mentioned it, it would be just as easy to argue that the scale of the violence committed on the Palestinians (ethnic cleansing, military occupation, denial of all basic rights) is massive in comparison to a few random acts of violence that barely put a dent in the force that Israel uses against the Palestinians.

Perhaps the greatest barometer of this is in how the violence carried out against Israelis is spoken of in comparison to the violence against Palestinians. Violence against Israelis is spoken of in the language of 'crime' - terms like 'murder' and 'massacre' are easily cast about. The implication being that those who have been killed are precious and unique - in other words, fully human. When speaking of Palestinian deaths, the discourse is rationalist militaristic calculus. Their deaths are accidental, regrettable, but usually chalked up to the cause of 'national security' or some other rubric of justification. In essence, their deaths (and the house demolitions) are never treated as those of full humans, but rather objects of military planning and police action.

This is the outward sign of the 'violence' that has been visited on the Palestinians - their relegation to something less than people and less than 'a people'. Just bodies without rights.

The knife cuts both ways.

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 05:44 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Does a hostage owe their kidnapper any moral obligation?

this is very narrow minded and stupid. To the kidnapper himself aside from death with out torture fine but if the hostage dare lay a hand on the kidnapers wife or children he should be just as dammed

quote:
Yeah, there was once this group - called the 'Jews' - and they were in a position of despair, and wouldn't you know it, they took their frustrations out on hundreds of thousands of civilians called 'the Palestinians'. What's good for the goose?

That is a sick and twisted way of looking at things. I wasn't defending what the Israeli's were doing anyways yeah much of it is very despicable I just think suicide bombings are more despicable.
quote:
But either way, how do you measure despair against despair, Justice? Do you have a formula? Maybe these others you speak of should[/] have resisted. Maybe the specific constellation of forces saw to it that they [i]couldn't resist. Frankly, your's is a ridiculous statement because it simply ignores any concrete analysis of both the conditions that Palestinians find themselves in, but the positions of 'despair' that others have found themselves in and whether or not those positions called for, or allowed violent resistence.

read the previous post

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 16 January 2004 05:53 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Moreover, why does it matter what class you come from? Politics is not only economic - though that has a big part in it.

The reason given for terrorism/suicide bombings is typically material impoverishment. If, in fact, the majority of terrorists/suicide bombers are not from the most impoverished classes, then accuracy demands that we call a spade a spade, and quit explaining terrorism or suicide bombings as the natural and unavoidable result of impoverishment.

Problem is, this won't really help the terrorists/suicide bombers much in terms of public image. As long as everyone believes that dirty water and a lack of food produce bombers then there will be a certain amount of public sympathy. If bombers are actually the result of political ideology, and if (as seems to be the case here) the ideologues are in fact the more priveleged or educated members of society, and not the most downtrodden, then bombers and their supporters will likely lose support from the international community. In short, some people can forgive a malnourished, uneducated teen who's just seen his house demolished easier than they can forgive an educated radical whose actions are driven by religion or politics.

quote:
They are denied access to the positive protection of the law, however you want them to circumscribe themselves in reciprocity to a system that doesn't count them as full people.

We're not talking about some trivial Israeli bureaucratic requirement here, we're talking about the intentional targetting of civilians. Nobody's suggesting that the Palestinians can't fight back, or that they have to oversee themselves to 'please their overlords'. They should have their own reasons for not purposely targetting civilians.
If they do, then they should enforce them the same as they enforce anything else which they believe.
If not, then I think the international community certainly has the right to judge them on their choice.

I believe that the list of occupied countries which have NOT fought back by blowing up civilians was intended to demonstrate that a people can fight back without abandoning all sense of humanity. Tibet has had China standing on its neck for years, but do you think the Dalai Lama is going to tell Tibetans that now is the time to blow up some Chinese kids? It's a choice.

So in short: no, don't stop killing civilians in order to please Israel. Do it because it's the right thing to do. Do it because even through the injustice and impoverishment you know this. Do it because it's not working, and because more dead civilians won't change that.

Doesn't mean you have to stop fighting, or that you've sold out, or rolled over, or you've lost face; if anything you'll have gained it.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 05:55 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

But since you mentioned it, it would be just as easy to argue that the scale of the violence committed on the Palestinians (ethnic cleansing, military occupation, denial of all basic rights) is massive in comparison to a few random acts of violence that barely put a dent in the force that Israel uses against the Palestinians.
Perhaps the greatest barometer of this is in how the violence carried out against Israelis is spoken of in comparison to the violence against Palestinians. Violence against Israelis is spoken of in the language of 'crime' - terms like 'murder' and 'massacre' are easily cast about. The implication being that those who have been killed are precious and unique - in other words, fully human. When speaking of Palestinian deaths, the discourse is rationalist militaristic calculus. Their deaths are accidental, regrettable, but usually chalked up to the cause of 'national security' or some other rubric of justification. In essence, their deaths (and the house demolitions) are never treated as those of full humans, but rather objects of military planning and police action.
This is the outward sign of the 'violence' that has been visited on the Palestinians - their relegation to something less than people and less than 'a people'. Just bodies without rights.
The knife cuts both ways.


Perhaps in the case of the Palestinians Israeli conflict you can say the Palestinians are suffering somewhat more then the Israeli's and don't forget there are a lot of unfortunate factors that contribute to that. Still this doesn't justify the violence used on either side.
Don't even try compare the suffering of Palestinians to that of Jews under Nazi occupied Europe or even under the Russian it in now way compares to the constant targeting of systematic killings of innocent civilians. The Germans used every thing they had against the Jews and other minorities. The Israelis have not used even a tenth of a percent of what's in their arsenal. True it's bad enough but I honestly believe if the Palestinians had the same arsenal the Jews would have long suffered way more causalities compared to what the Palestinians have.

by the way nicely put Mr. Magoo

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 16 January 2004 06:08 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
this is very narrow minded and stupid. To the kidnapper himself aside from death with out torture fine but if the hostage dare lay a hand on the kidnapers wife or children he should be just as dammed

Really - even when the kidnapper has abused my wife and kids? Hell, he's abused my whole family, my friends and everyone I know for years and continues to do so. Palestinian wives and kids are killed randomly all the time without the possibility of legal redress or censure. These deaths are commonly written out by some rationalist consequentialist calculus. And yet, we are to count Israeli lives one by one.

I just don't buy that I owe this bastard some kind of moral protection. Why should I? Against what - the censure of God? Personally I don't buy the metaphysical justification for moral behaviour: morality is contractual. If you offer me shitty terms, why should I grant you better terms? What is to be gained? My sense of self-worth - a feeling of warm-cockled piousness? That won't get me out of my hostage position, will it?

But we are dealing not with individuals, but with groups. The analogy begins to come apart, you are right - however, the moral indication that someone who is in a state of 'rightlessness' has the right to do what they must in order to get out of that situation holds. The Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed and oppressed as 'a group'. The force which holds them in this position is not the force of individuals, but the force of the Israeli state, which is said to represent Israelis as 'a group'.

What Israeli society needs to wake up to is the fact that in their very existence in the place where they are - they have become complicit in an act of violence. An act of violence which is ongoing and which is carried out in their name. If they want to talk about 'responsibility', they should look in the mirror and think about how their very lives contribute to the suffering of those held under IDF boots.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 16 January 2004 06:12 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We're not talking about some trivial Israeli bureaucratic requirement here, we're talking about the intentional targetting of civilians.

You miss the point entirely - the point is that you can call Israelis 'civilians' and it has some meaning, whereas Palestinians are never conferred those rights and privileges. They are 'targetted people' every day of their lives. They live in the possibility that they could be killed without punishment at any time. They ARE killed without censure daily. The crime here is not so much that Israel targets civilians - but that the Palestinians don't even qualify for the legal protection offerred civilians. They are abused and killed with impunity with regularity.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 06:16 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Screw You courage. The Israeli socitey constantly debates an argues what is done in thier name. No body throws a party when a palistinian house is destroied or child is shot.

You are despicable because you're not apologist or a sympathizer. You think the killing of Jews is O.K. don't deny it you have never once said suicide bombing is bad nearly every one on this thread have admitted that what both sides are doing is bad but you are truly only one sided. You don't even need an excuse.

And once again it's not about the kidnaper it's about his family.

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 16 January 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I believe that the list of occupied countries which have NOT fought back by blowing up civilians was intended to demonstrate that a people can fight back without abandoning all sense of humanity

Suicide bombings are very human. In fact, the choice to kill one's self for an ideology is an act of 'humanity' par excellence - animals cannot make this choice. The interdiction of a 'transcendent' call over the needs of basic animal life (mere subsistance) is the province of pure irrational choice - the excercise of the will against the interests of the physical body. It's oh-so-human.

In some contexts, it's called 'heroism' - like when The Unknown Soldier gives his life to save his unit...

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 16 January 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I find it abhorrent that people make heroes out of those who bomb civilian populations, whether the bomber is an individual in a pick-up truck, or sitting in a Stealth bomber.

And I find it distressing that some people want to demonize only the former.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 16 January 2004 06:33 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Perhaps in the case of the Palestinians Israeli conflict you can say the Palestinians are suffering somewhat more then the Israeli's and don't forget there are a lot of unfortunate factors that contribute to that. Still this doesn't justify the violence used on either side.

For the record, you are full of shit. Israelis can move, can eat when they want, can go out of their houses, are protected by the law, do not have guns pointed at them daily, are not denied citizenship and nationality. They do not find themselves at the whims of a military force which physically imprisons them and ideologically writes them out of protection of the law, and out of the catagory of humanity. Palestinians 'somewhat' do...

Moreover, given your false 'equanimity' you can then leap to the argument that Israeli and Palestinian violence be treated as equal in every regard. You present the argument that somehow the 'conflict' would exist as it does without this violence. That it is merely two claims battling it out and that the use of violence is only one of many possible tactics.

But the issue is not the arbitration of equal claims which could be negotiated under more peaceful conditions - it's that the violence of Israel is the defining feature of the system of relations. The VIOLENCE is inscribed into the very situation. The VIOLENT denial of Palestinian rights, and the juridical and physical VIOLENCE visited upon them by Israel is the factor that colours all the rest. It is that violence which defines the situation.

It's not a war between equal factions. It's a concentration camp. The wall is being constructed as we speak. The helicopters and sattelites provide surveillance from above while the prison guards control the prison population on the ground. They make sure that they can't leave their cells without permission, can't go to work without permission, etc. Every Palestinian move is watched. Do Israelis experience this?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 06:46 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes israelis do experince it what contry in the world do you have to walk in to a restraunt open your a bags and have a wand wave over you?

What country in the world are you constantly looking over your shoulder as you ride your bus to school or work?

What counrty in the world do you have to be wary about who you hire to help you in your for feilds for fear they may stab you in the back?

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 16 January 2004 06:48 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
[QB]Screw You courage. The Israeli socitey constantly debates an argues what is done in thier name. No body throws a party when a palistinian house is destroied or child is shot.

But it happens nonetheless. It's not about partying, Justice - it's that the problem is one that is simply 'debated' like any other matter of political or legal intrigue. It's that the situation is so normalised that is is just another figure of common speech

quote:
You are despicable because you're not apologist or a sympathizer. You think the killing of Jews is O.K. don't deny it you have never once said suicide bombing is bad nearly every one on this thread have admitted that what both sides are doing is bad but you are truly only one sided. You don't even need an excuse.

I don't like to hear that anyone has been killed - I don't make distinctions like 'Jew' and 'Palestinian' when this happens. If the roles were reversed, my position would be the same. What I'm saying is that the demand made of the Palestinians to halt their violence is part and parcel of an ideology that tacitly allows the greater injustice (that of the violence visited on Palestinians almost ontologically - they are born into a position of being violated) by creating a false 'equality' between the two sides. It's a manner of quietly focussing all the attention and blame onto the tactics of certain Palestinians while there is a much larger violent crime being committed. Your argument actually fits in neatly as a piece of the violence that denies Palestinians their rights by blowing Israeli deaths out of proportion in comparison to Palestinian deaths. You admit to the kidnapping, but you want to argue over what rights the victim has BEFORE you've even apprehended the kidnapper.

I don't want to see anyone die. But just once, Justice, it would be nice to hear that some Palestinians with names, addresses, citizenship rights, and nationality existed and were in a position to be real full victims.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
furthermore Palestinians have represntation in the UN. There has been sperate resoloutions on there case.

Many resoloutions have been past against some to be vetoed by the US but many which have passed

Israels presence has gone almost unnoticed in the UN it could damn near never pass any resloution


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 06:59 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't want to see anyone die. But just once, Justice, it would be nice to hear that some Palestinians with names, addresses, citizenship rights, and nationality existed and were in a position to be real full victims.

this is fine I'm more then prepared and able to say yes they are victims and they do have names and faces and are persons too and there death is truly sadning and should never have happened but it goes both ways.

Only once both sides can see each other as persons can this end I don't think many Palestinians in Palestinian society see Jews in Israelis society as persons then Jews in Israeli society Palestinians. This is where the problem lies equally on both sides.

Let me finish today by saying this since Jeffhouse brought it up killing 9 innocent children with a 1 tone bomb in order to kill one terrorist despicable no matter how many lives the terrorist was responsible for taking the are other countless examples of Israelis and other atrocities like these I think very few think the pilots in these cases are hero's things like this shouldn't happen same as suicide bombing shouldn't happen.

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 16 January 2004 06:59 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
[qb]Yes israelis do experince it what contry in the world do you have to walk in to a restraunt open your a bags and have a wand wave over you?


What country in the world are you constantly looking over your shoulder as you ride your bus to school or work?[/quote]

Many. Try walking in downtown Washington D.C. late at night.

quote:
What counrty in the world do you have to be wary about who you hire to help you in your for feilds for fear they may stab you in the back?

Many.

Awwww, did the dog you kicked come back to bite you in the ASS? What'd you expect?

But seriously - these things are related. However, the restrictions (like security at malls) you describe are by-products of the denial of Palestinian rights. In both cases, it's the Israeli state which carries out the restrictions. These measures are nominally to maintain 'security' in a 'state of exception.' But what is the cause of the state of exception? Why the oppression of Palestinians, of course.

However, there is something tragic in this as well - that the technology of the police state which is practised on the Palestinians is coming to be used on Israelis as well. Israel has become a permanent "state of exception". But, in the end, look who's doing the 'excepting' in both cases - Israelis themselves.

In other words, you find the restrictions against Israelis to be problematic because it offends your sense that they deserve protection under the law - that civil law was supposed to maintain a state of peace and tranqulilty. But, these measures are actually to 'protect the law' - demonstrating that the line between liberal-democracies and totalitarianism isn't that stark and easy to find. The difference between the position of Israelis undergoing security problems and that of the Palestinians is that the Palestinians are not legally considered to even have rights that can be violated in the first place.

See the difference? Israelis HAVE rights which are being restricted. Palestinians HAVE NO rights by design of the same system.

History finds this confluence of the police state and the concentration camp where some are excluded even from the police state to be quite common. Think about that.

[ 16 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 16 January 2004 07:13 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Courage just answer this

If the Israeli's back out of the west bank and Gaza (Which I hope they would already no good reason for them to be there). but furthermore do as others want have no security fence. Furthermore would allow unconditionally the right of return and compensate every last Palestinian to the fullest.

Would the bloodshed end? Would the Palestinians radicals still not want to kick the jews out Israel?

If it were that simple why hasn't it happened?


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4718

posted 16 January 2004 08:42 PM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If it were that simple why hasn't it happened?

If Courage keeps paying his cable bill, he can sit back and watch the slaughter.


From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4722

posted 16 January 2004 09:21 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is ridiculous. The question was whether or not violent resistence was used by certain oppressed groups - not the scale of the oppression or the resistence.

Not true, the question was

quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
And there are many societies that have been treated far, far worse and lived in much more despair that did not to turn to violence especially not against civilians to promote their cause.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Could you give us a list of those societies?


Using this criteria, the jews in Nazi europe counted as they may have fought against the military/government structure attacking them, but they did not target civilians nor blew themselves Up


As opposed to when they were in Palestine in 1946-48 and freely blew up civilians but not In Nazi Occupied Europe


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4722

posted 16 January 2004 09:26 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Courage just answer this
If the Israeli's back out of the west bank and Gaza (Which I hope they would already no good reason for them to be there). but furthermore do as others want have no security fence. Furthermore would allow unconditionally the right of return and compensate every last Palestinian to the fullest.

Would the bloodshed end? Would the Palestinians radicals still not want to kick the jews out Israel?

If it were that simple why hasn't it happened?



Because everyone fears too much and is too righteous in their positions. It would cause the violence and bloodshed to lessen a lot but no it wouldnt end. Palestinian radicals would stll fight (tho would find it harder) and Jewish right wing settlers would still be there and violent as well. It would jsut all be harder to justify and support and governments would be basically be forced to toe the line on violence and radicals and prob even un peacekeeping zones as well


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 16 January 2004 10:25 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone who would kill thgemselves purposefully just so they could kill others needs some major psychotherapy. If I die then it becomes irrelevent whether Palestine becomes independent or not since I would no longer be there to enjoy it. Call me selfish, but I for one would NEVER sacrifice my own life for anything. Once I am gone, nothing in the world matters.

If everyone in the world took this attitude. peace would reign because no one would be willing to die for anything!

"What is they called a war and no one showed up, oh what a wonder ful world!"


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 16 January 2004 11:30 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have also found the New Hampshire automobile license logo:'Live Free or Die' could create Bombers as heros. It is a belief that goes hand in hand with 'National Anthems, 'War music.' One's life is not important, it is the 'Country' that counts.

I really am not a believer in that kind of thinking. It becomes non thinking.


From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4718

posted 17 January 2004 12:03 AM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
Courage , let me spell it out for you. There are no "rights", none. It's all politics.

So stop prancing around in your phony moral finery.

Your aggrieved sense of decency is just your view of the world, get over yourself. Read another book and come back and tell us what a great intellectual you are.

Bombs away, Courage.


From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 17 January 2004 12:31 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The reason given for terrorism/suicide bombings is typically material impoverishment.

If you're speaking about Palestine, I disagree. From what I've heard, every time this happens the reasons given are typically retaliation for an assassination, an airstrike or an "incursion."

quote:
Anyone who would kill thgemselves purposefully just so they could kill others needs some major psychotherapy. If I die then it becomes irrelevent whether Palestine becomes independent or not since I would no longer be there to enjoy it. Call me selfish, but I for one would NEVER sacrifice my own life for anything. Once I am gone, nothing in the world matters.

If everyone in the world took this attitude. peace would reign because no one would be willing to die for anything!


I basically agree with this. It works for me - where and when I live.

I do not, however, presume to be able to comprehend the psychological condition of a young person who looks at her situation and her future and decides that blowing herself into hamburger is preferable to living.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
stunnedmonkey
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4862

posted 17 January 2004 12:35 AM      Profile for stunnedmonkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have also found the New Hampshire automobile license logo:'Live Free or Die' could create Bombers as heros.


PPPPPhhhhhhhhfffftttt-Bllllaahhhhaaahhhhhaaa!

Funniest quote ever! Thanks, clersal, I'll remember this when the next suicide bomber in New hampshire explodes him/herself over a carton of Ben & Jerry's Cherry Garcia


From: Michelle' s house | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 17 January 2004 12:37 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Ewww...it's running all over the house and it's leaving droppings everywhere!
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 17 January 2004 03:59 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know what you mean Hinterland. It must be awful as this one is stunned. Good moniker though. Very apt.
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 18 January 2004 12:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Courage , let me spell it out for you. There are no "rights", none. It's all politics.
So stop prancing around in your phony moral finery.

Your aggrieved sense of decency is just your view of the world, get over yourself. Read another book and come back and tell us what a great intellectual you are.

Bombs away, Courage.


Lost the intellectual argument. On to pure abuse. Nice.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 18 January 2004 12:32 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Courage , let me spell it out for you. There are no "rights", none. It's all politics.

So why shouldn't we shoot this guy? He has no "rights", none.

Or do we think he'd discover some moral finery, quickly?

The other alternative is that he's a Nazi, for whom might is right.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 18 January 2004 12:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Funniest quote ever! Thanks, clersal, I'll remember this when the next suicide bomber in New hampshire explodes him/herself over a carton of Ben & Jerry's Cherry Garcia

What of the Beltway snipers? Little more sophisticated but...


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 18 January 2004 01:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Anyone who would kill thgemselves purposefully just so they could kill others needs some major psychotherapy.

Stockholm.

Attacking an Israeli check point is just a suicidal as a suicide boming. In almost all cases I have read where Palestinian mount more traditional attacks against IDF positions they result in almost 100% casualties (I do remember one case where a Palestinian sniper took out 4 or 5 enemy soldiers with a hunting rifle before sneaking away.)

All soldiers, agree in principal that they may die, many in history have fought in battles knowiung that they would die. Thermopalae is a classic example -- their (the Spartan) battle to the death is regarded universally in the west as an act of heroism.

On the other hand I dont think it is entirely untrue that it is abberant.

"A logical army would run away." Isn't that Jean Jacque Rousseau

[ 18 January 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 18 January 2004 02:01 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
All soldiers, agree in principal that they may die, many in history have fought in battles knowiung that they would die. Thermopalae is a classic example -- their (the Spartan) battle to the death is regarded universally in the west as an act of heroism.


I agree and this is one case where I think Ayn Rand has the right idea. If people would stop identifying with their groups and only see themselves as selfish individuals, then ipso-facto there would never be wars or suicide bombings or acts of terrorism. People would only commit crimes in order to steal - never because they are putting their life on line for a political idea or out of some misplaced desire for martyrdom. We need to spread the word - God is dead, nationalities and society barely exist and we are all individuals. If you kill yourself for an idea, you are the loser and the living will laugh as they enjoy the fruits of your sacrifice. You will get nothing. There is no paradise, no infamy, you will just rot in the ground and get eaten by worms. you have one life to live and if you willingly shorten it - you are a pathetic loser.

It sickens me that in a world where people with terminal illnesses struggle so bravely for every last second of life and then able bodies terrorists willingly blow themselves up. I don't buy this carp about how life is not worth living under occupation. Being poor is very unpleasant, but interestingly suicide rates are very low in incredibly poor countries like Bangladesh or sub-Saharan Africa.

If i was a Palestinian living under occupation, I would be unhappy about a lot of things, but living is still far better than dying. I probably have parents and/or siblings who love me, I can kick around a soccer ball if I want, I can eat all the olives and hummus I want (yuck!), I can probably watch reruns of US sitcoms on TV, I can go to an internet cafe and play video games. I can marry and reproduce etc... Even I was in a maximum security prison - being alive is always better than being dead.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 18 January 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If i was a Palestinian living under occupation, I would be unhappy about a lot of things, but living is still far better than dying. I probably have parents and/or siblings who love me...

Or not. The 26 year old law student who killed herself a few months ago did so after IOF soldiers raided a wedding at which they killed her brother and cousin in front of her and her family.

You sound like Archie Bunker talking about "the carefree days of slavery."


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4718

posted 18 January 2004 02:39 PM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
[QB]

So why shouldn't we shoot this guy? He has no "rights", none.

Or do we think he'd discover some moral finery, quickly?

QB]


No, I think I'd discover a way to kill you first.


quote:
The other alternative is that he's a Nazi, for whom might is right.

Godwin's law.


From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2474

posted 18 January 2004 03:37 PM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On some of Stockholm's remarks:
quote:
Being poor is very unpleasant
But the Palestinians are not resisting poverty per se.
quote:
parents and/or siblings who love me...kick around a soccer ball...eat all the olives and hummus...probably watch reruns of US sitcoms on TV...go to an internet cafe and play video games...marry and reproduce...etc.
Is this report on the conditions of life for Palestinians gleaned from a specific source of information? An accurate one? Especially, does the "etc." mean that Israelis have granted Palestinians very many more meaningful freedoms, in fact, too many to list? So that, apart from restricting these freedoms from being exercised outside its walls (no big deal, that, if you can already enjoy all the hummus and video games you like, etcetera), the “maximum security prison” actually allows its inmates to experience life as worth living? This must be the case, since most Palestinians are not suicide bombers. But then that would mean Palestinian resistance is actually restrained--remarkably so, if it is true that the prison has for some time been shrinking, along with the freedoms within it. Because, you know, there is a history here, a changing landscape. That list of freedoms, that etcetera, is not what it once was.
quote:
being alive is always better than being dead.
Every good dramatist knows that there are much worse fates than death. It’s called tragedy. Go back to Oedipus, and then decide how worthwhile his life would have been in the end, though he could still participate in the kind of supposedly life-affirming things you list, such as eating and taking recreation (I won’t mention anything about parental love—it’s a spoiler). The thing is, when you're playing God, you can create hellish conditions, so that what would normally be life-affirming becomes bitter fruit (olives, for example).
quote:
We need to spread the word - God is dead
But of course, it isn’t necessary to believe in God to be barbarous—only to play Him.

[ 18 January 2004: Message edited by: bittersweet ]


From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 18 January 2004 05:48 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Milo_Hayes:
[QB]Courage , let me spell it out for you. There are no "rights", none. It's all politics.

Sure there are. Do you have the 'right' to vote? Yes. Whether or not this 'right' is conferred by a political process which is entirely contractual or by, say, divine fiat is a different question altogether.

And frankly, you didn't read very carefully because essentially we agree: of course rights are political. The entire notion of 'rights' within 'the law' is one which is intrinsically tied with the polis and the protections afforded to people by their membership in a political community. In fact, my position doesn't rest on anything else - I'm simply pointing out that the Palestinians have effectively been excluded from the polis and that this act of exclusion defines the political order of Israel. Israel - created out of the demand for 'inclusion' must paradoxically exclude the Palestinians to maintain it's polis. That the Palestinians have reacted violently to the violence of this exclusion shouldn't suprise any one - least of all Jews who have also been the objects of exclusion. The violence inherent in Israel's "making of the law" (their polis) is redoubled and revisited through the Palestinians. They represent the bastard children of the creation of Israeli identity by the establishment of the State (polis) of Jews called Israel.

quote:
Your aggrieved sense of decency is just your view of the world, get over yourself.

Wow, thanks for stating the patently obvious. Your nihilism is just your worldview. So what?

[ 18 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 18 January 2004 07:01 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No, I think I'd discover a way to kill you first.

Well, I'm glad you wouldn't use such a silly concept as that it would be WRONG to kill you, or that you have a RIGHT to be treated fairly.

But, true enough, nihilism was pretty much the new wave from about 1850 to 1945. So we are impressed.

But it is no way to create or run a society. Kill or be killed is an ideology for fools. On Babble at least, you subscribe to it.

In reality, I bet your a soft little fellow without even a criminal record.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 18 January 2004 07:20 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We need to spread the word - God is dead

Does that void the exclusive title deed to Palestine that he conferred to The Jews?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 18 January 2004 07:47 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

I agree and this is one case where I think Ayn Rand has the right idea. If people would stop identifying with their groups and only see themselves as selfish individuals, then ipso-facto there would never be wars or suicide bombings or acts of terrorism. People would only commit crimes in order to steal - never because they are putting their life on line for a political idea or out of some misplaced desire for martyrdom. We need to spread the word - God is dead, nationalities and society barely exist and we are all individuals. If you kill yourself for an idea, you are the loser and the living will laugh as they enjoy the fruits of your sacrifice. You will get nothing. There is no paradise, no infamy, you will just rot in the ground and get eaten by worms. you have one life to live and if you willingly shorten it - you are a pathetic loser.

It sickens me that in a world where people with terminal illnesses struggle so bravely for every last second of life and then able bodies terrorists willingly blow themselves up. I don't buy this carp about how life is not worth living under occupation. Being poor is very unpleasant, but interestingly suicide rates are very low in incredibly poor countries like Bangladesh or sub-Saharan Africa.

If i was a Palestinian living under occupation, I would be unhappy about a lot of things, but living is still far better than dying. I probably have parents and/or siblings who love me, I can kick around a soccer ball if I want, I can eat all the olives and hummus I want (yuck!), I can probably watch reruns of US sitcoms on TV, I can go to an internet cafe and play video games. I can marry and reproduce etc... Even I was in a maximum security prison - being alive is always better than being dead.


The problem here is that you are reducing a 'life worth living' to mere animal existence - bare life itself. As long as you have food and shelter than everything is A-OK. Is it? Prisoners have food and shelter. But what is their life?

In an odd way, you are actually philosophically paving the way to your own enslavement and oppression. By denying that the affirmation of positive rights has any real meaning and that mere biological existence is a sufficient condition/definition for 'humanity' you are essentially leaving the door open for your own rights to be trampled on. How could you justify maintaining them? We need to have a positive conception of what humanity is above and beyond mere biological life, otherwise our claims to freedom from control and oppression are without basis.

I, for one, am not satisfied to just be a living body.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4718

posted 18 January 2004 08:11 PM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
Courage, I am not a nihilist.

So we agree that rights are political. To paraphrase Mao, rights grow out of the barrel of a gun. Just ask Canada's Aboriginals.

Palestinians need their own polis, as do the Israelis, who are prepared to fight and die for theirs.

You've made it plain that your view is that Israel is the "Original Sin". Israel also reacts to violence, what's your point again?

Jeff House, you have a buffered, coddled, view of rights. Is that the army and police backing yours up? If you think they are not negotiable, and can never change, then you are the fool. You must be one hell of a lawyer if you know nothing of plea bargaining.

And why the selective outrage over violations of(your definition of) rights elsewhere? Could that be political?

In reality, I bet you're a fat little fellow without even a diet plan.


From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 18 January 2004 08:25 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Have you been drinking, Milo?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4718

posted 18 January 2004 08:42 PM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
You're brilliant,as usual,Hinterland.
From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 18 January 2004 08:47 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks..*blush*..I take it you haven't been drinking? Good to know...believe me, good to know.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 18 January 2004 09:27 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That the Palestinians have reacted violently to the violence of this exclusion shouldn't suprise any one - least of all Jews who have also been the objects of exclusion. The violence inherent in Israel's "making of the law" (their polis) is redoubled and revisited through the Palestinians. They represent the bastard children of the creation of Israeli identity by the establishment of the State (polis) of Jews called Israel.

Well let me tell you a little story that you may not be aware of. for about 2,000 years Jews were ruthlessly persecuted and stripped of rights wherever they lived. They were herded into ghettoes, had their movements restricted, were banned from all kinds of jobs, were regularly expelled and massacred and victims of genocide. During all those years, I never heard of Jews committing acts of terrorism or suicide to protest the conditions they lived in (at leats not since Masada). Instead, they were industrious, they studied, they created vibrant cultures and despite endless attempts to destroy them, they persevered and emerged strengthened if anything. I realize that this irritates the hell out of people who wanted to crush the Jews and instead everything they did backfired.

So, why don't the Palestinians do something constructive with their lives instead of doing nothing excpet blowing themselves up. Why don't they look at how the Jews of Europe under infinitely worse oppression than anything the Palestinians have experienced mansged to flourish. Maybe they couldn start by putting away the bombs and guns and instead doing some reading and studying.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 18 January 2004 09:47 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is it better to die on your feet or live on your knees?

(PS: Color me - embarassed - for missing the attribution on the other post I made. )


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 18 January 2004 10:49 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is it better to die on your feet or live on your knees?

I think living is better than dying at all times. Jews and many other oppressed groups have lived "on their knees" for hundreds of years and still managed to produce a great culture. Do you think the world would be better off if all oppressed peoples from the Jews to aboriginal peoples etc... all decided to commit mass suicide rather than live under someone elses control? Do you suggest that Quebecers should all kill themsleves because they live in a country dominated by English speakers?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 18 January 2004 11:08 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, then you wouldn't be bothered by us any more

I can think of MANY circumstances under which life is more painful than death. It is essential to have the choice in any case - that is one of the major perks of being an atheist.

As for your Randian, anti-socialist, anti-struggle stuff, are you really in the proper party? Doesn't the NDP have deep roots in the labour movement?

An old friend of mine (now over 80) was a resistance fighter in France. He could have been tortured and killed. Do you think he should have just eaten cheese and butter (he is from Normandy), sipped cider and not organise a maquis to resist the Nazis and harbour Jews and political refugees? Sorry, I disagree.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 18 January 2004 11:52 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, why don't the Palestinians do something constructive with their lives instead of doing nothing excpet blowing themselves up.

I don't know whether this is racism or just plain ignorance. Do you imagine that every Palestinian is a terrorist? Why else would you say such a vacuous thing?

Palestinians have indeed learned from the experience of the Jews in Europe. They have studied them and how they have survived, which is one of the reasons that Palestinians have such a great respect for education, and why they are among the most educated people from Arab or Third World countries.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 19 January 2004 12:54 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
An old friend of mine (now over 80) was a resistance fighter in France. He could have been tortured and killed. Do you think he should have just eaten cheese and butter (he is from Normandy), sipped cider and not organise a maquis to resist the Nazis and harbour Jews and political refugees? Sorry, I disagree.

Sounds like he chose to die on his feet.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 19 January 2004 02:25 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
To paraphrase Mao, rights grow out of the barrel of a gun. Just ask Canada's Aboriginals.

-- Milo

Completely wrong. Power comes from the barrel of a gun as in the original quote. Rights are part of institutional process. They are part of the systems of order that define how social organizations operate internally. Among other things, they are essential to the maintenance of power not just in conflict with it.

'Rights' not only define what is allowable, but also what is not by exclusion. Because of the way rights are construed it appears that they define things that are allowed, but things that fall outside of what is 'allowed' are actually prohibited.

For instance, 'the right to kill in self-defence' implicitly prohibits killing for any other reason. One does not have the 'right to kill out of jealousy.'

'Rights' help define rules.

In order to operate effectively, social organization need rules in order to operate. People are unable to function when bureaucrats and leaders operate by fiat under the guidance of their personal whims, rather than by procedure that are understood by all. Societies where rights are abrogated on a regular basis also suffer from corruption and general organizational deterioration because the rules are also breaking down.

Rights are part of the organization of power, not synonymous with it.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 19 January 2004 02:48 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If people would stop identifying with their groups and only see themselves as selfish individuals, then ipso-facto there would never be wars or suicide bombings or acts of terrorism. People would only commit crimes in order to steal - never because they are putting their life on line for a political idea or out of some misplaced desire for martyrdom.

Ayn is cracked of course. War for the most part is organized stealing. Asking people not organize is like asking fish not to swim. The lions would have eaten us long ago, otherwise.

But on.

The problem with this whole thing is that people have accepted the idea that this woman's primary motive is martyrdom. Is it? Isn't it possible that martyrdom is the religious/moral system which she justifies her sucidal act, as suicide is against the laws of the religion she believes in?

1) She wants to commit an act of revoltion.

2) She believes she has no other means of commiting an act of revolution other than ones that are suicidal.

3) Her religion prohibits sucide, but not death in battle against the enemy, which is defined as martyrdom.

This way she gets to commit the act and remain in the graces of god. The martydom part of it is not the objective but the loophole through which she escapes the Koran's iron clad law against suicide.

She probably did it for her children.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 19 January 2004 04:43 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:


Well let me tell you a little story that you may not be aware of. for about 2,000 years Jews were ruthlessly persecuted and stripped of rights wherever they lived. They were herded into ghettoes, had their movements restricted, were banned from all kinds of jobs, were regularly expelled and massacred and victims of genocide. During all those years, I never heard of Jews committing acts of terrorism or suicide to protest the conditions they lived in (at leats not since Masada). Instead, they were industrious, they studied, they created vibrant cultures and despite endless attempts to destroy them, they persevered and emerged strengthened if anything. I realize that this irritates the hell out of people who wanted to crush the Jews and instead everything they did backfired.


This is bunk history - a kind of mythical tale you might tell your grand kids, but it doesn't really tell the story. To the degree that 'Jewish culture' flourished, it was due to the allowances (and sometimes active encouragement) of the authorities where Jews found themselves. The very notion that a culture can flourish under simultaneous oppression of a high order is a little absurd on it's face. Moreover when we look empirically at the historical record your theory really isn't borne out.

quote:
So, why don't the Palestinians do something constructive with their lives instead of doing nothing excpet blowing themselves up.

Racist bilge. Ignorant, racist bilge.

quote:
Why don't they look at how the Jews of Europe under infinitely worse oppression than anything the Palestinians have experienced mansged to flourish. Maybe they couldn start by putting away the bombs and guns and instead doing some reading and studying.

Your history is bunk and your comments about the Palestinians patently racist.

[ 19 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 19 January 2004 07:31 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I never heard of Jews committing acts of terrorism or suicide to protest the conditions they lived in (at leats not since Masada).

--Stockholm

Here's one: A Polish Jew (Nationality?) shot and killed the German ambassador (unarmed civilian.) in France in 1938, in protest against the opression of Jews by the Nazi's. Goebels said of the incident, "for evey one of our we will kill a hundred of theirs."

That's one. Also what about the Palestine hotel, during British rule in Palestine. And... yeah that doctor from New York who walked into a mosque and shot fifty odd worshipers in the eighties.

Jewish people aren't sheep my friend.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 19 January 2004 09:59 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The problem with this whole thing is that people have accepted the idea that this woman's primary motive is martyrdom. Is it? Isn't it possible that martyrdom is the religious/moral system which she justifies her sucidal act, as suicide is against the laws of the religion she believes in?

1) She wants to commit an act of revoltion.

2) She believes she has no other means of commiting an act of revolution other than ones that are suicidal.

3) Her religion prohibits sucide, but not death in battle against the enemy, which is defined as martyrdom.


Or maybe she was suffering from depression, couldn't get a prescription for Prozac and figured that if she was going to kill herself anyways, why not take as many people down with her as possible.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 19 January 2004 10:01 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Here's one: A Polish Jew (Nationality?) shot and killed the German ambassador (unarmed civilian.) in France in 1938, in protest against the opression of Jews by the Nazi's. Goebels said of the incident, "for evey one of our we will kill a hundred of theirs."

That's one. Also what about the Palestine hotel, during British rule in Palestine. And... yeah that doctor from New York who walked into a mosque and shot fifty odd worshipers in the eighties.

Jewish people aren't sheep my friend.


Three isolated incidents over 2,000 years. Compare this to the thousands of Palestinis willing to blow themselves up just so that they can take a few Israeli civilians down with them.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 19 January 2004 10:06 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The lad's name was Herschel Grynszpan: http://www.auschwitz.dk/Grynszpan.htm
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 19 January 2004 11:11 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Or maybe she was suffering from depression, couldn't get a prescription for Prozac and figured that if she was going to kill herself anyways, why not take as many people down with her as possible.

This statement is pathetic beyond belief.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 19 January 2004 01:47 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What's wrong Qabong. Don't you think that Palestinians can suffer from depression and mental illnesses just like anyhone else? I'm sure there is not much access to mental health care in the occupied territories. Personally, i think anyone who would contemplate suicide is ipso-facto in need of psychiatric help. Too bad no one is there to give it to them.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 19 January 2004 01:48 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
PS: The woman who committed the suicide bombing the other day apparently was still nursing a baby. Ever heard of post-partum depression???
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 19 January 2004 02:10 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"The first rule of holes: when you're in one, stop digging."
-- Molly Ivins

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2474

posted 19 January 2004 03:00 PM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
'Ay, looks more like a pit he's in now, that being an emptiness something larger than a hole. All dark and such-like. With echoes!

quote:
I think living is better than dying at all times... It sickens me that in a world where people with terminal illnesses struggle so bravely for every last second of life and then able bodies terrorists willingly blow themselves up. I don't buy this carp about how life is not worth living under occupation.

How breathtaking it is to imagine yourself heroically confronting the most dire conditions! To forget that you’d never been surprised, even chagrined, by your own reactions to relatively minor dilemmas. But not only that, how satisfying it must be, brimming with magnanimity, fresh from that inspiring, self-assured fantasy, to hurl yourself into the task of evaluating the behaviour of other oppressed people.

Other? Oh yes, most emphatically so, because technically, you were oppressed too, weren’t you? You have a fertile imagination: surely for a moment it must have really felt like you were brutally oppressed or terminally ill. Lord, with your powers, perhaps both at once! (Why not add enslaved? A man like you could conjure up the sting of a whip so vividly—so willingly!--that you’d need a mirror to prove your back wasn’t really scarred.) How grand it must be to feel the pain of the oppressed long enough to announce, with complete conviction, and not a glimmering of the absurdity of it—before being mercifully interupted by awareness of your priviledged circumstances—that if you were ever cast (good word for a pretender) in a similar situation, you would heroically persevere to the end (playing video games, kicking soccer balls, etc.).


From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 19 January 2004 03:15 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm sure there is not much access to mental health care in the occupied territories

Nope but it seems that there are plenty of people around who are more than willing to help a suicidal Palestinian go out with a bang, and who will help make sure that everybody remembers who they were, and what they did.

Isn't that the fantasy of every suicidal teenager? That in death they will recieve the adulation they never experienced in life.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 19 January 2004 04:04 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Three isolated incidents over 2,000 years. Compare this to the thousands of Palestinis willing to blow themselves up just so that they can take a few Israeli civilians down with them.


You think that's all?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 19 January 2004 04:08 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
What's wrong Qabong. Don't you think that Palestinians can suffer from depression and mental illnesses just like anyhone else? I'm sure there is not much access to mental health care in the occupied territories. Personally, i think anyone who would contemplate suicide is ipso-facto in need of psychiatric help. Too bad no one is there to give it to them.

Telling that you find it necessary to reduce Palestinian acts of resistance either to wanton barbarity or mental illness.

Do you similarly think that IDF soldiers who beat, torture, and kill Palestinians -- not to mention the society that condones this -- are just 'mentally ill'? Perhaps a shipload of Paxil and cadres of psychotherapists are all that is needed to end the problem...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 19 January 2004 04:14 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by worker_drone:

Nope but it seems that there are plenty of people around who are more than willing to help a suicidal Palestinian go out with a bang, and who will help make sure that everybody remembers who they were, and what they did.

Isn't that the fantasy of every suicidal teenager? That in death they will recieve the adulation they never experienced in life.


I don't know. Do you have some access to the private fantasies of every suicidal teenager?


Interesting that 'Jews' (or Americans, Frenchpeople, Germans) can feel like part of the group 'Jew' and even kill and yes, DIE, for their Jewishness, and this is just 'nationalism' or 'patriotism', even 'heroism'. When a Palestinian acts on behalf of their group, it's not really altruistic, it's selfish, myopic and a sign of mental infirmity. Here we see the deployment of a 'medical/scientific' discourse to deny Palestinians their membership in a nation and all the usual behaviour that we expect from 'nationals'....

[ 19 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 19 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 19 January 2004 04:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Three isolated incidents over 2,000 years. Compare this to the thousands of Palestinis (sic) willing to blow themselves up just so that they can take a few Israeli civilians down with them.

I came up with three off the top of my head in the five minutes it took to write my post. You could think of none. In fact you used the word never. Yet you seem to feel qualified to lecture on sociology and culture of Jewish people.

Perhaps we should dedicate the rest of the thread to researching historical acts of revenge and committed by Jews over the last 2000 years. Here's another: Wasn't there a group of settlers who tried to plant a bomb outside Palestinian school a year a go?

That's four, and I haven't even started on the IDF. I am sure in a day we could come up with a list long enough to show a distinct patern and then we could say things like, Jewish people should spend more time studying and less time killing.

But I'd be branded a racist for that.

ROFL.

Edited to include:

quote:
Ha'aretz: According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

Benny Morris: "Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.


So add my 4 and Benny's 24. Now we have 28.

article

[ 19 January 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 19 January 2004 08:24 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Telling that you find it necessary to reduce Palestinian acts of resistance either to wanton barbarity or mental illness.

Do you similarly think that IDF soldiers who beat, torture, and kill Palestinians -- not to mention the society that condones this -- are just 'mentally ill'? Perhaps a shipload of Paxil and cadres of psychotherapists are all that is needed to end the problem...


I'm talking specifically about people killing themselves for no other reason than to kills as many defenceless civilians as they possibly can. I consider that to be a sign of mental derangement. We should all stop glorifying this self-destructibe behaviour and instead diminish it by showing that it is psychopathology to want to kill yourself.

Since Courage seems to think that suicide bombing is so laudable, why doesn't he or she set an example and blow him or herself up in a restaurant in Canada where Israelis hang out I(and make sure there are lots of kids there while you're at it). Just do your little part for the "struggle".


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4718

posted 19 January 2004 08:44 PM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
Touché, Stocklholm.
From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 19 January 2004 09:03 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Telling that you find it necessary to reduce Palestinian acts of resistance either to wanton barbarity or mental illness.

And how telling is it that Courage finds it necessary to elevate acts of wanton barbarity to the status of Palestinian "acts of resistance".


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 20 January 2004 12:10 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Since Courage seems to think that suicide bombing is so laudable, why doesn't he or she set an example and blow him or herself up in a restaurant in Canada where Israelis hang out I(and make sure there are lots of kids there while you're at it). Just do your little part for the "struggle".

What a silly tizzy.

Interesting. Semi-euphoric mythologizing of the dispora followed by brutal vilification as a means of defence when challeneged. Not suprising that this one can find no motive other than insanity or wanton brutality in Palestinian acts of violence.

I spent to much time on it though. Good night all.

[ 20 January 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 20 January 2004 08:19 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When suicide/homicide mass murder becomes "acts of resistance" we know that the campaign to legitimize murder of Israelis is in high gear.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 January 2004 08:44 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What "campaign" to legitimize murder of Israelis?

Could you please provide proof of the existence of this "campaign"?

Thank you.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 20 January 2004 10:31 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
....suicide/homicide mass murder...

You nuts?

[ 20 January 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4718

posted 20 January 2004 10:50 AM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
What else would you call it, cueball?
Care to justify it?

From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2474

posted 20 January 2004 11:52 AM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Suicide bombings are certainly acts of resistance. They are also certainly acts of terrorism, because they are intended to terrorize, as the bombers' handlers admit. They are acts of revenge for specific civilian killings by Israelis. They are acts of martyrdom/heroism, according to one religious perspective. And of course they are deranged, irrational; this is to be expected when the circumstances of the region are deranged. All of these terms are true, and all of them apply to both Palestinian and Israeli barbarism, as Amnesty International has concluded.

But these descriptions, however precise, are also facile. Of course suicide bombings are all these things; the terms are as true as they are unnecessary. The debate that dominates, and so characterizes, the Middle East forum is about whether these descriptions are appropriate only to the behaviour of one side, or both. When it's argued that they apply to both sides because both sides target civilians, it's considered a kind of heresy. Sometimes, in more irrational moments, that point of view is considered to be actual support for one side’s egregious violence.

If, when confronted with evidence of barbarism on both sides, different values are attributed to these acts--one side’s violence is "wanton" (which means "capricious, motiveless, arbitrary"--an inaccurate, and perhaps even misleading choice of words), and the other’s is something like “strategic” or “pre-emptive”—then the debate, just like the war, will be endless. Describing Palestinian suicide bombings merely as “acts of resistance", while partially accurate, is no different in kind, and just as provocative as, describing the latest Israeli missile attack in Gaza as a “pre-emptive strike”, or some such thing. These descriptions have a facile kind of accuracy, but their real achievement is granting barbarities more value than they deserve. They're lobbed across this electronic no man's land like verbal smart bombs. But, no excuses: the crimes against humanity carried out by Israelis and Palestinians alike are caused by hate, and choosing to temper that shared motive with soothing and misleading language for the benefit of one's favourite side only spins the wheel faster, round and round, without progress. Amnesty International wasn’t fooled; why should anyone else be?


From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 20 January 2004 12:16 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
What "campaign" to legitimize murder of Israelis?

Could you please provide proof of the existence of this "campaign"?

Thank you.


Look at this thread. See the statements by extremist Muslim clerics in Gaza and elsewhere heaping praise on homicide bombers making them into martyrs. Come on Michelle it's pretty clear.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 20 January 2004 12:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes Michelle, we the babble Illumati are obviously part of a structured kabal that takes its orders from The Elders of Gaza.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 January 2004 12:28 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Look at this thread. See the statements by extremist Muslim clerics in Gaza and elsewhere heaping praise on homicide bombers making them into martyrs. Come on Michelle it's pretty clear.

But you still haven't demonstrated where the "campaign" is in this thread. Who is organizing this "campaign"? Who are the participants?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 January 2004 12:54 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For the record it is important to note that the above ridiculous charge (that there is a "campaign" to legitimize the murder of Israelis) is levelled almost every time there is a discussion here in regards to trying to understand the psychology behind the suicide bombing phenomena. Yet rarely is anyone able to back up with facts from these threads proof of the allegation.

Oh yes we often get "well this is clearly what the poster must mean" or "this is what his words insinuate" lots of heat but no light.

Mishei is once again proving this point. And in so doing demonstrates that it is this unproven wicked allegation that is indeed "offensive and small-minded".


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 20 January 2004 01:40 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For the record it is important to note that the above ridiculous charge (that there is a "campaign" to legitimize the murder of Israelis) is levelled almost every time there is a discussion here in regards to trying to understand the psychology behind the suicide bombing phenomena. Yet rarely is anyone able to back up with facts from these threads proof of the allegation.

I for one am very interested in examining the psychology behind "suicide" bombings. I think that in most cases, we see a phenomenon that is similar to people being indoctrinated by a religious cult like the Moonies or the Church of Scientology. I think that many if not most suicide bombers get brainwashed through mind-control techniques and then they get sent out on their mission. What do you think happened at those camps in Afghanistan. It was probably brainwashing and mind control 101.

Interestingly, by far the highest number of suicide bombings is not in Israel, not by al-qaeda and not by Japanese kamikazes. It is in Sri Lanka by the Tamil Tigers. Literally hundreds of Tamils have blown themselves up after a spell in a cultic training camp where they get brainwashed into undying loyalty to the Tamil leader (who is supposed to be a crazed Charles Manson-like megalomaniac).

In examining the phenomenon of suicide bombers, the answer is less in the politics of what they are fighting for and more in how they are often poor unsuspecting dopes who have qweak minds and get rec ruited by very smart operatives who brainwash them into an altered state of consciousness that makes them do whatever their leader tells them to do.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2474

posted 20 January 2004 01:58 PM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's little value in examining something that has several, easily understood reasons for existing. Such as: the bombers' handlers manipulate them. Stop the presses.

A far more constructive examination would be self-directed, towards understanding the kind of weakness that motivates a statement like this:

quote:
So, why don't the Palestinians do something constructive with their lives instead of doing nothing excpet blowing themselves up.

From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 20 January 2004 02:04 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I'm talking specifically about people killing themselves for no other reason than to kills as many defenceless civilians as they possibly can. I consider that to be a sign of mental derangement.
It's idiotic to operate from a position that these suicide bombings occur within a political vacuum, to gloss over the complexities of violent, militant resistance as if this young woman suicide bomber were a Midwestern housewife with post partum depression.

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4718

posted 20 January 2004 02:10 PM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by Courage:


quote:
What I'm saying is that the demand made of the Palestinians to halt their violence is part and parcel of an ideology that tacitly allows the greater injustice (that of the violence visited on Palestinians almost ontologically - they are born into a position of being violated) by creating a false 'equality' between the two sides. It's a manner of quietly focussing all the attention and blame onto the tactics of certain Palestinians while there is a much larger violent crime being committed. Your argument actually fits in neatly as a piece of the violence that denies Palestinians their rights by blowing Israeli deaths out of proportion in comparison to Palestinian deaths.

This is typical of Courage's "two legs bad, four legs good" approach.

Asking Palestinians to cease their suicide bombing is actually "a piece of the violence that denies Palestinians their rights". This is done by blowing "Israeli deaths out of Proportion","by creating a false 'equality' between the two sides."

It's Israeli lives that are being blown out of existence Courage, and it's a valid act of war, as far as you are concerned.

In general, the argument usually goes like this:
"Of course I'm against violence, but...", which usually translates into a "but they had it coming." statement.

Courage believes the state of Israel must be destroyed. That's his opinion, whether he's leading a campaign, is another question.

[ 20 January 2004: Message edited by: Milo_Hayes ]


From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 20 January 2004 02:21 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Jeff House, you have a buffered, coddled, view of rights.

I don't debate with people who know nothing of my life, and are too ignorant to inquire.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4718

posted 20 January 2004 02:27 PM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
Jeff House, I hope you use better tactics in court.
From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3232

posted 20 January 2004 02:34 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
After I read anything by Courage, I feel dirty and need a shower.

He time and time again, systematically, comes to the defense of the extreme right movements in the Palestinian community, instead of trying to elevate the moral tone of the debate by supporting pro-peace and anti-violence forces and ideas FROM BOTH SIDES. The extreme right movements whose tactics he defends are dedicated, as per their founding constitutions, for example in the case of Hamas, to killing all Jews wherever they may be found.

Way to go.


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3232

posted 20 January 2004 02:36 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
My devalued two Canadian cents. That's all I have to say.

One can either elevate the tone of the debate or one can continue with this ridiculous race to the bottom about which side is more evil than the other.


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 20 January 2004 02:38 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Suicide bombers' families criticise Islamic groups

quote:
A suicide bombing by a Palestinian mother of two in Gaza last week has brought to the surface criticism within Palestinian society of what one commentator describes as a culture of death.

People from all walks of life in the West Bank and Gaza Strip expressed shock on Tuesday that the militant Islamic group Hamas sent Reem al-Reyashi to her death, leaving two toddlers behind.


Somebody should explain to these people that Reem al-Reyashi was actually performing a brave act of resistance, and that criticizing Hama's role in her death sets up a false equality enabling ontological violence to be perpetrated, blah blah blah.

Courage these people need you!


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 January 2004 02:38 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mimichekele2:
After I read anything by Courage, I feel dirty and need a shower.

What should he write from now on so that you feel minty fresh after reading his posts?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3232

posted 20 January 2004 02:57 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
It was a nasty comment, Michelle.

I mostly stay away from these Middle East threads unless someone e-mails me about a topic I may be interested in.

reading these threads is depressing - a contest of which ethncc, religious, political ideology is more evil.

As I said, one can elevate, by pointing to the anti-violence and pro-human rights forces on both or rather on all sides or one can follow the Courages of the world in their downward spiral into the moral muck.

One Arab commentator said at the time of the publishing of the recent Geneva Peace Accord that we need an "explosion of moderation". We moderates are the true radicals, not those who find any positive value, any value at all, in mass killings of the innocent, whatever their nationality.

[ 20 January 2004: Message edited by: Mimichekele2 ]


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3232

posted 20 January 2004 02:59 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
My final two cents. I feel too queasy to continue here.
From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Paladin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3119

posted 20 January 2004 03:37 PM      Profile for Paladin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK, so you're a Palestinian who's extremely pissed off at the fact of Occupation. You don't have an Air Force so you can drop bombs on buildings in densely populated areas....you don't have tanks that fire flechettes so you can cut people into ribbons....you don't have helicopters that fire missiles at cars....and bulldozers? Forget it. And you're really, really pissed off. So you turn yourself into a human bomb. And when you're dead, they'll call you crazy, or a savage killer. And what you call resistance will inevitably be called terrorism.
From: Jugular knotch | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 20 January 2004 03:42 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

But you still haven't demonstrated where the "campaign" is in this thread. Who is organizing this "campaign"? Who are the participants?


Where did I say it was in this thread??????


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3278

posted 20 January 2004 03:43 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Somebody must have been mishtaken or mishled.
From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 20 January 2004 03:52 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, that "Look at this thread" comment was rather ambiguous.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 20 January 2004 04:01 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You don't have an Air Force so you can drop bombs on buildings in densely populated areas....you don't have tanks that fire flechettes so you can cut people into ribbons....you don't have helicopters that fire missiles at cars....and bulldozers? Forget it.

But if these weapons suddenly materialized on Palestine's doorstep, would they use them to purposely and preferentially target civilians? Women and children in markets and on subways?

Hopefully not!

So then why does the lack of them constitute an open season policy on non-combatants? I don't think the means of delivery (namely, strapping a bomb to oneself) is being criticized here, it's the intentional choice of civilians over recognized combatants.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Paladin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3119

posted 20 January 2004 04:15 PM      Profile for Paladin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If the other side is killing noncombatants using the means listed above - and we know that it is -
could one expect Palestinians to refrain from targeting civilians? You will likely say that the IDF doesn't deliberately harm noncombatants, but it's callous disregard for innocents amounts to virtually the same thing.

My earlier point is that if the Palestinians had access to the Israeli armamentarium,I think it unlikely that there would be suicide bombings.


From: Jugular knotch | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 20 January 2004 04:41 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
But if these weapons suddenly materialized on Palestine's doorstep, would they use them to purposely and preferentially target civilians?

Hopefully not!


Yes, hopefully they would show more restraint than the IDF, the USAF in Iraq (X2), Afghanistan, Serbia, Panama, Grenada, Viet Nam ... oh, and pretty much any invading army anywhere at any point in history.
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
What should he write from now on so that you feel minty fresh after reading his posts?

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 20 January 2004 05:01 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes, hopefully they would show more restraint than the IDF, the USAF in Iraq (X2), Afghanistan, Serbia, Panama, Grenada, Viet Nam ...
oh, and pretty much any invading army anywhere at any point in history.

Palestinemonitor.org has a nice fact sheet on Palestinians killed since the start of the Intifada. It shows that of 2782 Palestinians killed since 2000, only 6.6% of them have been women.

If the IDF is indiscriminately firing rockets at civilians and blowing up apartment complexes and killing Palestinian civilians willy-nilly, how come this number is so low? How could they "accidentally" be killing 93.4% men, if they're doing it at random?

I'm not suggesting that the IDF, or as Rebecca points out, pretty much any other army in history, hasn't killed civilians, nor that it's every bit as tragic regardless of the nationality of the civilian, but honestly! You can't be suggesting that there's no difference between this, and intentionally targetting civilians over combatants?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Paladin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3119

posted 20 January 2004 05:08 PM      Profile for Paladin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are you suggesting that 93.4 % of those killed are armed men? Could any of them be noncombatants or are all Palestinian men de facto "terrorists". It seems to me that children have also been killed during the Intifada. Where do they fit in?

[ 20 January 2004: Message edited by: Paladin ]


From: Jugular knotch | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 20 January 2004 05:34 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are you suggesting that 93.4 % of those killed are armed men?

Depends what you consider armed, or a combatant. And I'm certainly NOT suggesting that none of the men killed were unarmed noncombatants. But if the IDF were as indiscriminate about killing civilians as suicide bombers, then we'd expect to see demographics of the dead closely match demographics of the live. Certainly there would be far more women killed than 6.6%.

quote:
Where do they fit in?
Under "the Barbarity of War". But again, if the IDF were indiscriminately shelling civilian dwellings and bulldozing houses with people in them and such, we'd expect more children killed than what the numbers show.

Anyone have any similar stats for victims of bombings? Maybe they'd shed some light on the difference. My guess is that since the bombings intentionally target civilians, we'd see a higher proportion of children killed, and a more even male to female ratio as well.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 20 January 2004 05:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Somebody must have been mishtaken or mishled.

Mishchievous, arent we.

quote:
One can either elevate the tone of the debate or one can continue with this ridiculous race to the bottom about which side is more evil than the other.

-- MMCK

But isn't attempting to comprehend the acts of suicide bombers elvating the tone of the thread? Really, all we are getting from elsewhere is words like murder and various snide comments based on dime store psychology.

Whatever what may be said about Courage, Courage has elborated on their vision of political and psychological landscape that shapes a suicide bomber. I'm waiting for more than name calling from courage's detractors.

Even if we are to establish that someone is mentaly ill, are we so far advanced that we need not seek the cause, or understand the acts of the insane?

Or as in your case, outline the workings of the 'fascist' movement that you are talking about.

Outrage is not enough.

[ 20 January 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 20 January 2004 05:51 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Palestinemonitor.org has a nice fact sheet on Palestinians killed since the start of the Intifada. It shows that of 2782 Palestinians killed since 2000, only 6.6% of them have been women.


What I find remarkable is that in the entire intifada ONLY 2,782 Palestinians have been killed. Do you realize that in 1982, Assad the fascist dictator of Syria 10,000 Syrians in Hama in one day and nobody gave a hoot! In September 1970, tens of thousands of Palestinians were killed in the mini-civil war with King Hussein's forces in Jordan. So AT LEAST five times as many Palestinians have been killed by Jordan than have been killed by Israel. Why doesn't the Palestinian majority in Jordan start suicide bombings in Amman so that Palestine East (aka Jordan) can be liberated from the Hashemite tyranny and restored to its rightful Palestinians rule?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 20 January 2004 05:59 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Because the last time they engaged in armed resitance the Hashemite killed 10's of thousands of them. Then there was a truce, and then they negotiated, and now there is peace.

Just a thought.

Also, a lot more than 3000 Palestinians have been killed in the last 50 years. Time to start checking your historical facts again. Where do you get them, "the world according to Areil Sharon?" The 3000 are over the last 3 years.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 20 January 2004 06:25 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not to mention, by the way, that there have actually been two separate intifadas.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 20 January 2004 06:33 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Because the last time they engaged in armed resitance the Hashemite killed 10's of thousands of them. Then there was a truce, and then they negotiated, and now there is peace.

Oh there is peace all right, but basically Jordan won, the PLO lost and Jordan dictated the terms. Basically, the PLO was run out of Jordan (mainly to Lebanon which they procedded to destroy - but I digress) and there was an unconditional surrender. No PLO attacks were ever allowed to be launched from Jordanian territory.

According to you, the road to peace for the PLO should be to do with Israel what they did with Jordan - disarm and never launch any terrorist attacks again. If only it were so simple.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Paladin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3119

posted 20 January 2004 07:22 PM      Profile for Paladin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's not forget the Palestinians murdered in Sabra and Chatila by Christian Phalangists under the eyes of the Israeli army. A couple of thousand, I believe.

If the Syrians had killed ten thousand Israelis there would certainly have been a reaction. Arab lives are cheap, apparently.... no less so when killed by other Arabs


From: Jugular knotch | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 20 January 2004 10:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
According to you, the road to peace for the PLO should be to do with Israel what they did with Jordan - disarm and never launch any terrorist attacks again. If only it were so simple.

Just to bring you into the new century, the PLO doesnt exist anymore, its decendants the PA is disarmed and agreed in to 1) the recognition of Israel's right to exist and 2) to stop armed resistance. That was Oslo. This is now. Now is Hamas.

They are two seperate organizations. You continue to confuse self created fictions with the facts. But who cares about facts when your cherished notions conflict with them.

I have yet to see you admit once that you have been incorrect on the facts, both about Jews and Palestinians 3 times in one thread.

1) The Jews have "never" committed acts of terrorism or massacre.

2) That Israel has only killed 3000 Palestinians in its history.

3) That the PLO exists.

And you want to lecture everyone one on the Palestinian issue.

ROFL


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 20 January 2004 10:44 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Let's not forget the Palestinians murdered in Sabra and Chatila by Christian Phalangists under the eyes of the Israeli army. A couple of thousand, I believe.

So Christians kill Muslims and the Jews get blamed for it. Meanwhile the Phalangist commander of the murderers at Sabra Shatilla was welcomed with open arms as a cabinet minister in the Syrian puppet regime in Lebanon. None of the Lebanese Muslims seemed to have any objection to that.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 20 January 2004 11:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Non-partisan partisan:
Somebody must have been mishtaken or mishled.
Yes or are purposely mishinforming others.

[ 20 January 2004: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 21 January 2004 12:47 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So Christians kill Muslims and the Jews get blamed for it. Meanwhile the Phalangist commander of the murderers at Sabra Shatilla was welcomed with open arms as a cabinet minister in the Syrian puppet regime in Lebanon. None of the Lebanese Muslims seemed to have any objection to that.

Why don't we just replace Stockholm with a robot? That way, any time anyone mentions one or another Israeli atrocity, Stock-bot can just spew out "Oh yeah...? Well, what about those Arabs? They did [insert nasty Arab deed here] and no one complains about them!!!!! Nyadda-nyadda-nyadda!"

I, for one, wouldn't notice the difference.

Sharon was innocent because the government of Syria is composed of scumfucks who cavort with mass murderers? My brain quivers at the spectacle of such unassailable logic.

I guess those nasty Syrians must have infiltrated the Kahan Commission, too, right, Stockholm?


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4718

posted 21 January 2004 12:56 AM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes or are purposely mishinforming others.


From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 21 January 2004 10:07 AM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My advice to them would be to begin on some other planet, because I don't know how many countries on this particular planet really want the Islamic flag replacing their own.

I agree. They can take Bush's White House with them as well because clearly there aren't many countries (maybe Britain as long as Blair is in office) who appreciate having the US flag replace their own either.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 21 January 2004 10:38 AM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Under "the Barbarity of War". But again, if the IDF were indiscriminately shelling civilian dwellings and bulldozing houses with people in them and such, we'd expect more children killed than what the numbers show.

Anyone have any similar stats for victims of bombings? Maybe they'd shed some light on the difference. My guess is that since the bombings intentionally target civilians, we'd see a higher proportion of children killed, and a more even male to female ratio as well.


Tell me, what percentage of women killed would be significant to you? 10%? 25%? Or does it have to be 51% women killed before the deaths count as civilian and directly targeted?

What percentage of children killed is sufficient for you to consider it a targeted civilian casualty rate ... 15%? 35? Does it only count if they're bombed, and not if they're shot in the back while running away from an IDF soldier? If a 14 year old boy is gunned down for throwing stones, does he count as a combatant? Or is a 10 year old okay?

quote:
I'm not suggesting that the IDF, or as Rebecca points out, pretty much any other army in history, hasn't killed civilians, nor that it's every bit as tragic regardless of the nationality of the civilian, but honestly! You can't be suggesting that there's no difference between this, and intentionally targetting civilians over combatants?
Are you suggesting that the IDF is somehow operating according to a higher standard than every other occupying or invading army, currently or throughout history? Or are you suggesting that Palestinian militants are behaving in a more violent and immoral manner than almost every other occupying or invading army currently or throughout history?

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 21 January 2004 10:49 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Tell me, what percentage of women killed would be significant to you?

You're missing the point. Do the math.

quote:
What percentage of children killed is sufficient for you to consider it a targeted civilian casualty rate

Again. Do the math.

quote:
Does it only count if they're bombed, and not if they're shot in the back while running away from an IDF soldier?

The stats I linked to count all of these.

Just out of curiousity, how do you explain the very significantly low number of women killed?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 21 January 2004 11:46 AM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are you suggesting that the IDF is somehow operating according to a higher standard than every other occupying or invading army, currently or throughout history? Or are you suggesting that Palestinian militants are behaving in a more violent and immoral manner than almost every other occupying or invading army currently or throughout history?

Mr. Magoo, I was hoping you would answer Rebecca's question, which I believe is a good one. What do you say?


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 21 January 2004 11:56 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Personally, I think that the IDF is behaving pretty much as most armies would with regard to civilian casualties. I don't think that by and large the average IDF soldier is intentionally targetting civilians who are minding their own business.

What's more, it seems to me that suicide bombers kind of go out of their way to appear as normal citizens (although they seem to have a 'uniform' of a sort when they're getting their picture taken), and regular citizens seem to also, occasionally, want to participate by hurling objects, etc., so if the line between civilian and combatant is blurry, I can't lay this entirely at the feet of the IDF. I'm sure that there have been soldiers who simply shot civilians because they could, but I don't personally believe they're in the majority.

And yes, I do think that suicide bombers are categorically different from this or other armies by dint of purposely choosing to target civilians who are clearly not wearing a uniform and are clearly not combatants. I'm not talking about a few civilians killed as 'collateral damage' here, I'm talking about civilians as the primary target.

That help?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 21 January 2004 12:14 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
Yes, thank you. It clarifies what I originally thought, which is that I respect your right to your opinion, which is quite different from mine.

Peace.

[ 21 January 2004: Message edited by: evenflow ]


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 21 January 2004 12:43 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You're missing the point. Do the math.
Au contraire, I believe you have missed the point entirely. These are people, not numbers.

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 21 January 2004 12:54 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
These are people, not numbers.

Are you trying to throw statistical analysis into the dustbin of history or something? Since when is it illegitimate to consider statistics about people when discussing them?

And if you can consider the stats for just a moment without somehow losing your humanity, how do you explain an out-of-control, indiscriminate army which somehow seems to have for the most part avoided killing women? I'm only suggesting that it's because they aren't as indiscriminate as people wish to believe, but what's your explanation?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 21 January 2004 01:51 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Are you trying to throw statistical analysis into the dustbin of history or something? Since when is it illegitimate to consider statistics about people when discussing them?

And if you can consider the stats for just a moment without somehow losing your humanity, how do you explain an out-of-control, indiscriminate army which somehow seems to have for the most part avoided killing women? I'm only suggesting that it's because they aren't as indiscriminate as people wish to believe, but what's your explanation?



I have never called the IDF an out-of-control indiscriminate army. I do not think they are. They target both combatants and civilians, at varying times, for the same reasons that all invading, oppressing, occupying armies do. The original point, if you'll read back, was that if the Palestinians had an army as well-equipped, perhaps their warfare would be more "conventional" as well.

Be that as it may, I have considered why fewer women than men are killed. And I didn't need to reduce them to a mathematical equation to do so. I just thought about all the footage I'd seen of Palestinian protests, public parades and funerals. Very few women in attendance. I suspect that Muslim women (and their female children and very young male children) in the OTs don't lead as public a life as the adult men do, and thus are not as readily available as civilian targets. I highly doubt it has anything to do with them being spared because of their gender.

Sorry, I don't have any stats on that.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 21 January 2004 01:56 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
I think you mean well Magoo and personally I don't find anything wrong with using statistics, but your rush to make statistics out of the recently dead smacks of insensitivity and that may be part of the reason for the confusion.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And if you can consider the stats for just a moment without somehow losing your humanity, how do you explain an out-of-control, indiscriminate army which somehow seems to have for the most part avoided killing women? I'm only suggesting that it's because they aren't as indiscriminate as people wish to believe, but what's your explanation?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe that you are right. The stats we have been given clearly prove that the IDF has, for the most part, avoided killing women. When historians are eventually permitted to dig up the massacre at Jenin, I'm sure they will find that most of those dead people were male as well.

quote:
Be that as it may, I have considered why fewer women than men are killed. And I didn't need to reduce them to a mathematical equation to do so. I just thought about all the footage I'd seen of Palestinian protests, public parades and funerals. Very few women in attendance. I suspect that Muslim women (and their female children and very young male children) in the OTs don't lead as public a life as the adult men do, and thus are not as readily available as civilian targets. I highly doubt it has anything to do with them being spared because of their gender.

I never considered this reason, but it seems to be the most likely scenario.

quote:
Sorry, I don't have any stats on that.

[ 21 January 2004: Message edited by: evenflow ]


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 21 January 2004 02:14 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
but your rush to make statistics out of the recently dead smacks of insensitivity and that may be part of the reason for the confusion.

Actually, I didn't "make" the stats — they're there, a whole page of them, put out by a Palestinian group calling itself the Palestine Monitor. They supply contact information on their website if you have concerns about their use of statistics.

But honestly, are you really (really?) only concerned with my use of statistics provided by a Palestinian source on the grounds that it's somehow "insensitive"? 'Cuz I have to think that if the statistics showed the majority of victims to be under 10 you'd be all over them. Am I wrong?

quote:
And I didn't need to reduce them to a mathematical equation to do so.

Ya, next to you I guess I must be some kind of soulless robot.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 21 January 2004 02:16 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Ya, next to you I guess I must be some kind of soulless robot.
Your words, not mine.

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 21 January 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Agreed. My words on top of your painfully obvious insinuation.

** Bleep bleep bleep **


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2474

posted 21 January 2004 02:44 PM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Amnesty International numbers the dead, and names some of them, in its 2003 Annual Report. http://tinyurl.com/3by72

Exerpted from the Introduction:

quote:
Since the beginning of the intifada, the Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip which broke out in September 2000, Palestinian and Israeli children have been targeted in an unprecedented manner. In the period from 29 September 2000 to the end of August 2002, some 1700 Palestinians, including more than 250 children, were killed, and more than 580 Israelis, most of them civilians and including 72 children, were killed.

The overwhelming majority of Palestinian children have been killed in the Occupied Territories when members of the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) responded to demonstrations and stone-throwing incidents with excessive and disproportionate use of force, and as a result of the IDFs reckless shooting, shelling and aerial bombardments of residential areas. Palestinian children have also been killed as bystanders during Israels extrajudicial execution of targeted activists, or were killed when their homes were demolished. Others died because they were denied access to medical care by the IDF. At least three Palestinian children have been killed by armed Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories.

Israeli children have been killed in direct and indiscriminate attacks, including suicide bombings, and shootings by members of Palestinian armed groups and by Palestinian individuals who may not belong to armed groups, both inside Israel and in settlements or on roads leading to settlements in the Occupied Territories.

The patterns of killings described in this report show how the right to life of Palestinian and Israeli children has been repeatedly violated as a result of the systematic failure of the Israeli authorities, Palestinian armed groups, and the Palestinian Authority (PA) to comply with the obligations and safeguards set down in international human rights and humanitarian law.



From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 21 January 2004 03:06 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for posting that AI excerpt. I used to site their reports when I was covering the social justice beat. I read ALOT of Amnesty reports back then. Then as now, the IDF was killing children, though suicide bombings weren't prevalent as a form of militant Palestinian activity.

I can't read them anymore though. The body count is just too high.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 21 January 2004 03:35 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Personally, I think that the IDF is behaving pretty much as most armies would with regard to civilian casualties. I don't think that by and large the average IDF soldier is intentionally targetting civilians who are minding their own business.

What's more, it seems to me that suicide bombers kind of go out of their way to appear as normal citizens (although they seem to have a 'uniform' of a sort when they're getting their picture taken), and regular citizens seem to also, occasionally, want to participate by hurling objects, etc., so if the line between civilian and combatant is blurry, I can't lay this entirely at the feet of the IDF. I'm sure that there have been soldiers who simply shot civilians because they could, but I don't personally believe they're in the majority.

And yes, I do think that suicide bombers are categorically different from this or other armies by dint of purposely choosing to target civilians who are clearly not wearing a uniform and are clearly not combatants. I'm not talking about a few civilians killed as 'collateral damage' here, I'm talking about civilians as the primary target.

That help?



Thank you Mr. Magoo for articulating so well how many of us feel.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Paladin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3119

posted 21 January 2004 03:52 PM      Profile for Paladin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love that term "collateral damage". Just a few civilians.... not enough to feel badly about. It's not as though we TRIED to kill them. We just didn't try very hard NOT to.

Yes, I agree that suicide bombers deliberately target civilians. But I wonder whether this is seen as the only means available to them to hurt the occupier. As I asked earlier, if they had access to the same weaponry that the Israelis do, would they fight more conventionally, as Rebecca suggested?

It's a slim moral distinction to make between deliberately killing civilians, and carelessly killing them.


From: Jugular knotch | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 21 January 2004 03:53 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But honestly, are you really (really?) only concerned with my use of statistics provided by a Palestinian source on the grounds that it's somehow "insensitive"?

Nope. Comments like this one (quoted below) are the ones that concern me:

quote:
I'm not talking about a few civilians killed as 'collateral damage' here, I'm talking about civilians as the primary target.

A few civilians? Get real.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 21 January 2004 03:58 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A few civilians? Get real.

I was actually referring to 'a few civilians' killed by bombers. In other words, I was making allowances for the fact that even a bomb used to target a group of soldiers would (probably) kill a few civilians too, and I wasn't counting that in with a bomb intentionally detonated in, say, a market.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 21 January 2004 04:04 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the context Mr. Magoo. I understand now what you were saying.

Speaking of the IDF's obvious concern for the safety of women and children...

Israel kills Palestinian woman in Gaza

quote:
Israeli troops have shot dead a Palestinian civilian woman during a massive invasion into the occupied Gaza Strip's Rafah refugee camp.

Bilal Shahadah, 14, was shot in the head as he walked along a street in the vast impoverished camp on the border between Gaza and Egypt after an Israeli-imposed curfew, said witnesses.

Muna Ismail, a 31-year-old mother of two, was killed by tank fire while washing clothes and baking bread in her backyard with her sister, who was wounded along with a 13-year-old nephew, said neighbour Akram Brais.



From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 21 January 2004 09:48 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
Nothing like a news report clearly outlining the IDF's indiscrimate killing habits to end a debate on how careful they are....
From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 22 January 2004 01:04 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't think that by and large the average IDF soldier is intentionally targetting civilians who are minding their own business.

'cept for that British fella, who was shot dead in the forehead with a scoped rifle, while escorting Palestinian children. Just an aberation? Ok, then why is that an IDF soldier thinks he can get away with that? Perhaps its because they do on a regular basis.

Just a thought.

But then I agree that the IDF is by and large like any other army, possibly better in some ways. But, and here is the but, soldiers that are in the field for long periods of time tend to loose the moral focus that they bring with them from civilian life. This compounds over time and a culture calous disregard developes within the army as a whole. This is where the IDF stands today.

Over time the society at large becomes affected with the same attitude, as soldiers are reintorduced into society at large.

I believe this is the process that IDF war resitors are speaking about, when they say that the occupation is undermining the moral fabric of Israel.

[ 22 January 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 22 January 2004 01:59 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just an aberation?

Well, a single, specific example typically is, by definition.

But I do agree with you that even one soldier doing something like this is indicative of an unhealthy climate. People don't do blatant outrageous things unless they think they'll be supported in them, or they just don't care.

quote:
Nothing like a news report clearly outlining the IDF's indiscrimate killing habits to end a debate on how careful they are....

They?

[ 22 January 2004: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 22 January 2004 10:03 AM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing like a news report clearly outlining the IDF's indiscrimate killing habits to end a debate on how careful they are....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They?


?

Your silence on Israel's massive invasion of a refugee camp yesterday, killing all types of human beings including women, children, teens, men speaks louder than your arguments defending the IDF.

I give up. See what you want to see. I'm outta here.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 22 January 2004 10:27 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Your silence on Israel's massive invasion of a refugee camp yesterday, killing all types of human beings including women, children, teens, men speaks louder than your arguments defending the IDF.

Haven't we outgrown this kind of logic? I mean, I know it's the middle east forum, where what you don't say somehow outweighs anything else, and where people must sometimes prove that they're on the right side by swearing oaths and denouncing enemies, but seriously! I see Mishei get browbeaten for doing this all the time... now you want to start?

quote:
I'm outta here.

Well, don't let "them" get you. You know how "they" can be!


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca