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Author Topic: Rabbi on Trial for opposing Demolitions
al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 January 2004 01:18 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An Israeli rabbi who heads a human rights group will be put on trial on Wednesday for attempting to block the demolition of Palestinian homes by standing in front of Israeli bulldozers.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 January 2004 01:43 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Life in the Gaza Strip

On Daniel Pipes

Bradshaw boy commits more character assassination on Rachel Corrie

quote:
2) An Israeli bulldozer operator maliciously killed a human rights activist.

The Web site electronicintifada.com reports that for two hours she played "cat and mouse" with the bulldozer. She scaled a pile of dirt and fell under the machine. He was unaware and had no intention of killing her. Video footage of the accident was made available - see it for yourself.


I fired up my browser and the account that he's talking about is this one. Didn't we chat about this and discuss some standard safety regulations that bulldozer drivers learn?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
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posted 13 January 2004 01:47 PM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
I'm eagerly awaiting the day the Palestinian Authority puts a bomber on trial for murdering jews.
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flotsom
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posted 13 January 2004 01:52 PM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm eagerly awaiting the day the Palestinian Authority puts a bomber on trial for murdering jews.

Hard to get your handcuffs around a mist.


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DrConway
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posted 13 January 2004 02:08 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, Bradshaw boy's only complaint is that the PA employs the iron fist rather than the velvet glove method of applying justice. I thought right-wingers salivated at the thought of just blasting a few criminals to smithereens without so much as a trial.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
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posted 13 January 2004 02:27 PM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hard to get your handcuffs around a mist.

Oh, did I say suicide bomber?

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Milo_Hayes ]


From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
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posted 13 January 2004 02:52 PM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey, Bradshaw boy's only complaint is that the PA employs the iron fist rather than the velvet glove method of applying justice. I thought right-wingers salivated at the thought of just blasting a few criminals to smithereens without so much as a trial.

Huh? His only complaint?
Is Bradshaw a "right winger"?
And which criminals are you referring to?


From: Blueberry hill | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 13 January 2004 05:03 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
double...

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Courage
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posted 13 January 2004 05:07 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Milo_Hayes:
I'm eagerly awaiting the day the Palestinian Authority puts a bomber on trial for murdering jews.

Maybe that could happen if the Palestinian Authority had any authority at all. Of course, that can't happen until Israel (who is the real sovereign power in the West Bank) decides to stop playing colonial occupier. What might help the PA juridiciary to function more resolutely would be a cessation of the occupation and the continued destruction of what's left of the PA infrastructure - including police stations and other enforcement institutions - by the IDF. Expecting a normal functioning judiciary under conditions of seige and occupation is cynical and patently unrealistic.


But it's the old pro-Israel hipocrisy - "If you guys behave like a regularly functioning state (never mind that Israel is sadly lacking in many catagories of 'justice') we'll maybe, perhaps think about giving you a state. But only once you make us stop destroying the vestiges of your state by not behaving like a state; which you aren't by the way, and dont' forget it..."

We'll tell you when you can be a state, but until that time we will maintain the fiction that you are one so that we can continue to wage war on you. If it ever came to light that we were making war on a group of impoverished, occupied refugees and stateless persons with a scattered beseiged 'leadership' things might seem different....

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 13 January 2004 05:16 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've heard that the Palestinian Authority has no troubles dealing with suspected traitors in their midst. Has this same swift justice been applied to a bomber, or a suspected bomber? Certainly one cannot expect the P.A. to have lavish courtrooms and judges with big silly wigs, but if they can bring traitors to justice, they could bring anyone else that they wanted to to justice, no?
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Milo_Hayes
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posted 13 January 2004 05:17 PM      Profile for Milo_Hayes        Edit/Delete Post
Cry me a river, Courage.

Arafat had his chance to build a state, instead he tried, and is still trying, to destroy Israel.
So there he sits amid his rubble, no doubt thinking of the jewish blood his suicide bombers blasted on jewish walls. Yeah, my heart is bleeding too.

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Milo_Hayes ]


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Courage
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posted 13 January 2004 05:19 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Milo_Hayes:
[QB]

Arafat had his chance to build a state, instead he tried, and is still trying, to destroy Israel.
So there he sits amid his rubble...


The irony is delicious. The BIG POWERFUL ARAFAT threatening Israel from a hovel...


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Courage
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posted 13 January 2004 05:24 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I've heard that the Palestinian Authority has no troubles dealing with suspected traitors in their midst. Has this same swift justice been applied to a bomber,

How do you do that? Post-humously? Habeus corpus as I recall...

quote:
or a suspected bomber?

Uh, usually you have to commit the crime first, which brings us back to problem #1. But hey, I guess you could ask why Palestinians should bother with nicities of civil law when, for instance, Israel and the United States have done away with such things as due process and the assumption of innocence.

Boy you sure are clever, Magoo..

quote:
but if they can bring traitors to justice, they could bring anyone else that they wanted to to justice, no?[/qb]

No. Hamas will shoot back. The PA does not have the authority of a usual state/police force - largely due to the efforts of Israel to destroy the infrastructure that they rely on. Moreover, while I'm sure many Zionists might think that civil war in the West Bank is a good idea (it sure would prove that those Arabs are barbarians and make good press, I bet) I think the pressing issues of occupation and basic human rights are higher on the agenda than a functioning judiciary. Again, all this is cynical evasion of Israeli responsibility (due to their de facto sovereignty) for the mess that is the Palestinian territories. Moreover, it simply ignores the fact that the PA was NEVER in a position to create a state free of Israeli interference. Most importantly the tone of the discussion of Palestinian statehood always assumes that Israel to be the final moral arbiter of what Palestine ought to, and must be. Colonialism by any other name...

There were Jewish police in the ghettoes too...

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 13 January 2004 05:32 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How do you do that post-humously?

They don't all succeed. Many who don't will be captured by the IDF, but I can't imagine that accounts for all.

quote:
Uh, usually you have to commit the crime first. Which brings us back to problem #1.

Wouldn't being found with a stockpile of explosives be a crime? It certainly would be anywhere else in the world. You can't be suggesting that all these suicide bombers manage to acquire supplies, train, build bombs, pose for pictures dressed in their bombs, and then go out and try to use their bombs, but nobody knows and no bomber has ever been seen or found before the bomb goes off?

I'm also assuming that Palestine has similar laws to those in the rest of the world, that would see accomplices tried for their roles in importing explosives, building bombs, etc. What happens to them? Anything?

Do you really believe that everyone involved in suicide bombing is "blowed up" already, and out of reach of justice?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 January 2004 05:36 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So this Rabbi went into an Israeli courtroom...
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Mishei
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posted 13 January 2004 05:37 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I've heard that the Palestinian Authority has no troubles dealing with suspected traitors in their midst. Has this same swift justice been applied to a bomber, or a suspected bomber? Certainly one cannot expect the P.A. to have lavish courtrooms and judges with big silly wigs, but if they can bring traitors to justice, they could bring anyone else that they wanted to to justice, no?
Yes that's just the point.

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Courage
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posted 13 January 2004 05:37 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:


Wouldn't being found with a stockpile of explosives be a crime?


quote:
It certainly would be anywhere else in the world.

No. Actually, this isn't true. It's perfectly legal to own a number of kinds of explosives in many states. My grandfather had TNT for moving rocks and stumps from farmland, for example. The law is about intent and motives - AND - about real crimes which have already been committed - not potentially. But all this is moot, as we will see in a moment.

quote:
You can't be suggesting that all these suicide bombers manage to acquire supplies, train, build bombs, pose for pictures dressed in their bombs, and then go out and try to use their bombs, but nobody knows and no bomber has ever been seen or found before the bomb goes off?

I'm also assuming that Palestine has similar laws to those in the rest of the world, that would see accomplices tried for their roles in importing explosives, building bombs, etc. What happens to them? Anything?


But what we are dealing not with issues of law, but of the physical and ideological aspects of the ability to enforce that law. The question is - does the PA police force have this capability? I think it can be shown that they do not have this ability, nor the authority.

The next question - which causes many to blow a gasket without really thinking - is what legal obligation does the PA really have in regard to Israel considering that Israel has effectively declared war on the PA and Palestinians in general, continues to illegally occupy them and their territory and continues to deny basic inalienable human rights to them? They have essentially made the entire Palestinian territory into a concentration camp. Are the inmates of a concentration camp legally and morally beholden to their wardens?

I say no.


quote:
Do you really believe that everyone involved in suicide bombing is "blowed up" already, and out of reach of justice?[/qb]

No, but I think there is a much bigger issue of 'Justice' here which is the issue of denying an entire people basic human rights. The issue of using one of the world's most well-equipped militaries (allied with THE most powerful military) to keep a large group of people in a camp where they are systematically placed outside any legal protection - essentially treated as bodies and not full people. The outward signs of this are the restriction of movement, maintaining thier poverty, periodically killing and wounding dozens of them with impunity, and other outrages.

There is a BIG crime being committed. Moreover, you want to have it both ways - you wish to support Israel who has done everything in its power to minimize the power and authority of the PA and to humiliate the Palestinian people and yet maintain the fiction that the PA really is in control and ask the PA to resolutely enforce a law which barely exists. It's funny if it weren't so tragically cynical.

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Mishei
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posted 13 January 2004 05:41 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There were Jewish police in the ghettoes too...
Its been quite a while since the invidious comparisions to nazis...but as is the usual case comparing Israelis to anything that occured as a result of nazi barbarity is too much for the anti-Israel crowd to pass up. And as usual it has a stink of antisemitism to it. Now I await one of Courage's long-winded defences...ho hum

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Mandos
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posted 13 January 2004 05:45 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, Mishei, that's the most explicit anti-Semitism accusation I have seen you make in a while about a regular poster.
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Courage
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posted 13 January 2004 05:55 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Its been quite a while since the invidious comparisions to nazis...but as is the usual case comparing Israelis to anything that occured as a result of nazi barbarity is too much for the anti-Israel crowd to pass up. And as usual it has a stink of antisemitism to it. Now I await one of Courage's long-winded defences...ho hum

Yeah, why use extra words to be more precise and elaborate something in detail when you can use short rhetorical talking-points to make libelous accusations like they teach in Propaganda 101?

If you were smarter, you would see that the comparison isn't about physical conditions (though those are comparable in some respects) but about the juridical processes that render an entire territory and people 'outside' of the law. I.e. the process by which they are denied nationality, citizenship AND basic human rights. The place (we'll call it 'camp' following Agamben) where the space (let's call it citizenship, which assumes certain rights) which normally exists between the naked power of the state (the violence allowed to the state) and the bodies of people collapses so that the individual may be violated in any number of ways without inflaming our sense that their 'rights' have been denied - because they simply don't have them.


I would, then, also compare the 'camp' that is the Palestinian territories to the internment camps in virtually all European and Western states during the world wars, the camps for Boers in South Africa, the camps for Cuban revolutionaries opened by the Spanish in the 1800's, or even 'Camp X-Ray' currently at Guantanamo. These are all sites of the denuding of human beings of the juridical rights conferred on them by state's laws of citizenship and international law so that just about anything (including killing them without punishment) can be done to them. The Palestinian territories fit neatly into this catagory.

But why think when you can blow smoke, eh novice?

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Courage
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posted 13 January 2004 06:01 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Its been quite a while since the invidious comparisions to nazis...but as is the usual case comparing Israelis to anything that occured as a result of nazi barbarity is too much for the anti-Israel crowd to pass up.

Just like you can't pass up an oppurtunity to try and stop discussion by spreading a little 'antisemitism' around....


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 13 January 2004 06:03 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My grandfather had TNT for moving rocks and stumps from farmland, for example.

So Palestinians have farmland with stumps on it do they? What you're saying is that your grandfather had explosives because he could show a need for them. What's the "need" in Palestine, besides making bombs?

quote:
I think it can be shown that they do not have this ability, nor the authority.

Then how are they able to deal with traitors?

quote:
Are the inmates of a concentration camp legally and morally beholden to their wardens?

Is the opposite true? Do they suddenly exist in a moral vacuum where anything goes (except, of course, being a traitor)?

At any rate, if what you're saying is that because of the occupation the P.A. shouldn't, or doesn't, consider the making or use of suicide bombs illegal or immoral, then just say so. I can't imagine news like that rocking anyone's world.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 13 January 2004 06:05 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
[QB]

Is the opposite true? Do they suddenly exist in a moral vacuum where anything goes (except, of course, being a traitor)?


Priorities. You are under attack. Though it is not a fight between equals but a situation where there is a warden and a prisoner - one side holds all the important cards including the right to decide who is human and who is just an animal body. There are those who ham-fistedly do what they can to defend themselves and strike back - sometimes in gruesome and reprehensible ways. Then there are those that are aiding the wardens to imprison and destroy you - who do you deal with first on limited time/resources? Be realistic.

Morally this doesn't absolve anyone - however, it is interesting that your arguments are nominally in favour of a state which has done it's best to ensure that the Palestinians live in a juridical and moral vacuum - free of all the bothersome encumberments of rights and citizenship - EXCEPT when it comes time to blame them for some deed or other. Israel actively (though paradoxically) enforces the 'lawlessness' of the Palestinians by denying them the positive aspects of a civil legal order: i.e. making sure they can't move, can't vote, can't work, can't eat, can't defend themselves, can't go out of the house, can't go to school, can't get medical assistance, can't be a nation or a people. Israel has deliberately created a situation in which Palestinians are not 'counted' by their law or by usual moral distinctions. Palestinians can be killed 'accidentally and regrettably' without censure to their killers (while the deaths of occupation soldiers on duty are called 'murder' in Israel). Palestinians can be imprisoned without trial (wait, that's not 'just'!) can be beaten, tortured and have their houses demolished all without any kind of legal or moral redress. In effect, they are not 'people' but just bodies. However, you conversely expect that they should be (in order to gain the approval of your 'concerned' Western eyes and the permission of Israel to simply exist without interference) wholly functioning juridical citizens like in any normal functioning state even in the absence of such a state. You want them to be inside and outside the law all at once. In some twisted way, you feel as though they have to morally 'prove' themselves to your more 'civilised' tastes in order to be considered equally human and be let out of the 'camp'. Meanwhile, you support that which keeps them from being equally human on a basic level.

Fuck that.

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 January 2004 06:26 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So Palestinians have farmland with stumps on it do they?

Yes, Mr. Magoo, but the farmland used to be olive groves and orange orchards until IOF bulldozers decided they were terrorist groves and orchards and rooted them out.


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Courage
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posted 13 January 2004 06:28 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Yes, Mr. Magoo, but the farmland used to be olive groves and orange orchards until IOF bulldozers decided they were terrorist groves and orchards and rooted them out.


Leaving stumps, of course - though the TNT wouldn't do much good now...


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Courage
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posted 13 January 2004 06:29 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"And as usual it has a stink of antisemitism to it."

Where?

You can do better than that, Mishei. I have faith in you...


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Courage
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posted 13 January 2004 06:31 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"So Palestinians have farmland with stumps on it do they? What you're saying is that your grandfather had explosives because he could show a need for them. What's the "need" in Palestine, besides making bombs?"

The issue was whether or not having explosives was legal or not. It may be. This leaves us with a different question altogether - which is the enforcement capabilities of the PA police, and the moral/legal issue of Palestinian obligations to do police work on behalf of their wardens.

I note you haven't gone there.


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Mishei
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posted 13 January 2004 06:45 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Just like you can't pass up an oppurtunity to try and stop discussion by spreading a little 'antisemitism' around....


I have said this before and i will say it again..

the line gets crossed when invidious comparisions of any kind are made between Israeli actions and that of the evil beastial nazis.

I have felt that way since day one and no attempt at explanation from Courage can move that line.

So Courage go ahead with your facetiousness and attempts at belittling me "sticks and stones" ...


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 January 2004 06:47 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This leaves us with a different question altogether - which is the enforcement capabilities of the PA police, and the moral/legal issue of Palestinian obligations to do police work on behalf of their wardens.

This is a crucial point, and therefore always ignored.

The PA's purpose is essentially to police the occupation on behalf of the colonizer. When they fail to do their job to the master's standards they serve as a scapegoat and are attacked, thus weakening their already limited power to enforce the master's rules, which leads to further scapegaoting...

It's Catch-22 squared.

The PA is in a lose-lose situation.


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Courage
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posted 13 January 2004 06:50 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
[QB]I have said this before and i will say it again..

the line gets crossed when invidious comparisions of any kind are made between Israeli actions and that of the evil beastial nazis.


You say it, but you have never adequately justified the opinion. Moreover, you never adequately address the terms of the comparison. In other words - your 'line' is wholly reflex and ideological. You can't seem to distinguish between the act of physical extermination and the series of laws and juridical actions that make it possible. The actions that set some humans outside the law into a space governed by force and violence. A space that simultaneously (paradoxically) defines the legal order from which they are excluded. What we can agree on is that the comparison is alarming.

quote:
So Courage go ahead with your facetiousness and attempts at belittling me "sticks and stones" ...

I'm not being facetious - I mean every word I say. No frontin' here. As for belittling you - you do this well enough on your own each and every time you fail to adequately substantiate your libelous accusations. Keep going - you discredit yourself with every flimsy talking point. I'm just pointing it out.

Don't you have some highschool kids to be bullying for the cause?

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Michelle
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posted 13 January 2004 10:41 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, all right.

Can we cool it a bit and get back on topic please?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 13 January 2004 11:56 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Palestinians are stockpiling explosives to clear out the stumps left by the settlers uprooting their olive trees! I'm sure that's what's on the minds of the people who sneak into the settlements with dynamite strapped around their waist. And yet we brand them as terrorists. I swear, babble reads more like the Onion every day

Kudos to Rabbi Ascherman. It's people like him who give me some small hope this mess can ever get sorted out.


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aRoused
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posted 14 January 2004 09:48 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Invidious comparisons?

"Israel and Nazi Germany both produce(d) CO2, a greenhouse gas linked to climate change and global warming."

"Israel and Nazi Germany are two of the worst polluters in the history of human civilization."

"Israel and Nazi Germany are both guilty of passing laws which treat ethnic groups within their borders unequally."

"Israel and Nazi Germany are both guilty of violating the terms of the Geneva convention."

"Israel and Nazi Germany are both guilty of creating zones within which an ethnic population is imprisoned."

"Israel and Nazi Germany have tried to create an ethnically pure society by encouraging and promoting one ethnic group at the expense of others."

"Israel and Nazi Germany would both prefer not to have to deal with a particular group of people--in fact, if it didn't exist, they'd be a lot happier."

"Israel and Nazi Germany both created zones within which the laws of the State did not apply, for the purposes of 'security', and within which military actions were perpetuated on the imprisoned ethnic group."

So how invidious does it have to be, Mishei?

Edited to add a few more.

[ 14 January 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 14 January 2004 10:30 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This leaves us with a different question altogether - which is the enforcement capabilities of the PA police, and the moral/legal issue of Palestinian obligations to do police work on behalf of their wardens.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the P.A. want to look like it doesn't support bombings? Don't they have their own reasons to oppose them?

If not, then they should be upfront about it and tell the world that they support suicide bombers (and take whatever PR hit that entails).

If they do, genuinely, oppose suicide bombers then occasionally stopping one before the bomb goes off, and bringing the bomber and his/her accomplices to justice would give them tremendous credibility. Again, under the circumstances, nobody expects them to be running a DNA testing lab or using state-of-the-art policing equipment. But they've shown themselves capable of a certain amount of enforcement when it's important to them, so I think that's the only standard they need be held to. If they can catch and punish a suspected traitor, then they could, if they wished, do the same for a suicide bomber.

But you're right: they shouldn't be doing it to "please their masters".


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 14 January 2004 10:38 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While that might have been possible at the start of the intifada, Magoo, at present it's impossible simply because the IDF has essentially completely destroyed any PA police forces that did exist.
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 14 January 2004 05:37 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:
Invidious comparisons?

"Israel and Nazi Germany both produce(d) CO2, a greenhouse gas linked to climate change and global warming."

Edited to add a few more.

[ 14 January 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


Edited to delete the ugly and antisemitic post. Shame on you and shame on anyone who accepts this type of post as legitimate.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
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posted 14 January 2004 07:34 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I'm with Mishei, your post isn't quite accurate.

For instance, the assertion that "Israel and Nazi Germany are both guilty of violating the terms of the Geneva convention", is not strictly true because the Geneva Conventions were only officially proclaimed in 1949 and 1950.

The Fourth Geneva Convention [Convention (IV) Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (12 Aug 1949)] was created in response to the events of WWII, and the violent treatment given to civilians by many of the combattant countries, including Nazi Germany. Many of the provisions of the convention were specifically enacted in response to the treatment given to various minorities (most notably Jews and Roma) by the Nazi government of Germany, although the treatment of minorities by other states (including the Allied powers) cannot be overlooked in any circumspect analysis of civilian rights during WWII.

In other words, the Convention was, in part, a kind of legal representation of the sentiment, "Never Again". The fact that the state of Israel now violates this Convention (including many of the specific clauses created in response to the treatment of Jews, Roma and other minorities) makes the situation that much more tragic.

[ 14 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 January 2004 08:23 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not going to comment on most of those things that you wrote, aRoused, except to say that Nazi Germany did a lot of other things that Israel hasn't done which makes Nazi Germany off-the-scale in comparison.

These two comparisons are laughable, however:

quote:
"Israel and Nazi Germany both produce(d) CO2, a greenhouse gas linked to climate change and global warming."

"Israel and Nazi Germany are two of the worst polluters in the history of human civilization."


Ha! What, unlike any other Western country?

Also, those other things you mention - not that it makes it "okay", but there are an awful lot of other countries that you could make the same comparisons with. I personally have no problem with comparisons of Nazi war crimes to war crimes committed by any other country. And I have no problem with certain policies of other countries compared to similar Nazi policies. I think historical comparisons are important and legitimate.

But I would not say that overall Israel is like Nazi Germany. The scale and the systematic approach of the genocide committed in Nazi Germany is unparalleled.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 January 2004 08:46 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wouldn't being found with a stockpile of explosives be a crime? It certainly would be anywhere else in the world. You can't be suggesting that all these suicide bombers manage to acquire supplies, train, build bombs, pose for pictures dressed in their bombs, and then go out and try to use their bombs, but nobody knows and no bomber has ever been seen or found before the bomb goes off?

(my emphasis)

Sorry Magoo, no dice here. You don't know this to be true. Why? No explosion. No story, unless of course you have an inside track with the PA. Do you?

In a piece by Robert Fisk, where he translates documents that Israel lifted from Arafat's Headquarters in 2001 (the same documents that Israel paraded to the western press to show Arafat's links to terrorist activities,) he points to a number of things missed in the Israeli translations, such as:

quote:
"Typical is the case of Mahmoud Freih, a 17-year-old Palestinian schoolboy who was born in Kuwait and lived in Tulkarem. A report from Mr Arafat's "Preventative Security" Office in the city dated 26 December last year informed his intelligence operatives that Freih had originally been a member of the Democratic Front (a Marxist, pro-Arafat group) but had since joined Islamic Jihad at the instigation of a Tulkarem resident called Ayman Mahdawi. Mr Arafat's men demanded to talk to Freih about his change of allegiance. But he was already planning to plant a makeshift mine on a road used by Israeli tanks near Shweikeh. The attack was aborted because of the presence of Israeli soldiers. So he moved the bomb, ran a wire from the explosives to a citrus tree in an orchard. Again, his attack failed. Next day, Freih attended school but returned to the bomb's location – only to find that the wire had been cut. Waiting for him there were an official of the Palestinian Authority and an explosives expert named Samir Abu Naser. He later confessed his activities to Mr Arafat's men. A later note on the report says Freih was released after questioning on condition he had been recruited – presumably by the Palestinian Authority.

The story of how a 17-year-old schoolboy could involve himself in Islamic Jihad and head off after classes to try to destroy an Israeli tank casts a revealing light on the militancy of Palestinian youth.

The Israeli account deleted all reference to the role played by the Palestinian Authority in foiling the attack on the Israelis. The full text shows clearly that Mr Arafat's men did just what the Israelis would wish: they stopped the attack and persuaded the boy to change sides."


(Again, my emphasis)

The full text of this article can be found on this site, under articles: "Israel's black propaganda bid falters as documents reveal an impotent leader not a terrorist mastermind." 09 May 2002

PS: Why the silly sideline about the Nazis antisemetism and no discussion of the views of the Rabbi?

Edited to fix link.

[ 14 January 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 15 January 2004 09:23 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
sigh.

My point, such as it was, was to illustrate that unflattering (invidious doesn't quite mean that, but I think the intent was clear on Mishei's part) comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany can be made, without necessarily being anti-Semitic. The list was a sliding scale of more and more vicious comparisons, none of which I specifically endorse, hence the quotations marks around each. (I just *knew* someone would burn me for this without trying to understand my motivation, I just *knew* it)

Sure, some of them are throwaways, the ones about pollution particularly, that's why they're at the 'light' end of the scale. But they're still parallels that can be drawn between Israel and Nazi Germany.

To call ANY and ALL unflattering comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany anti-Semitic is what's truly laughable. For reference, here's what Mishei said previously:

quote:
the line gets crossed when invidious comparisions of any kind are made between Israeli actions and that of the evil beastial nazis
(emphasis mine)

Any kind? I'd argue not.

Michelle's attack is pertinent and appropriate: I wrote those statements specifically because you could replace 'Israel' and 'Nazi Germany' with pretty much any other set of nations and have the statements remain largely accurate.

Case in point: "Canada and Great Britain are both guilty of passing laws which treat ethnic groups within their borders unequally."

The Indian Act and various acts regarding the Irish, for example?

"South Africa and the United States both created zones within which the laws of the State did not apply, for the purposes of 'security', and within which military actions were perpetuated on the imprisoned ethnic group."

Bantustans and Indian reservations?

In summary: Some anti-Semitic comparisons can be made between Israel and Nazi Germany, but not all comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany are anti-Semitic.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged

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