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Author Topic: Leftist antisemite is a Jew?
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 12 January 2004 08:23 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
" An outspoken member of Harvard Students for Israel went undercover in what he says was a quest to gauge anti-Semitism in a campus anti-war group.

Members of the Harvard Initiative for Peace and Justice (HIPJ) discovered last week that mysterious anti-Semitic posts on the group’s web log were written by Eric R. Trager ’05, who posted them under an assumed name.

Trager said yesterday that he was responsible for the posts in question, but said they were part of his larger effort to monitor anti-Semitism on campus.

Trager, who is secretary of Harvard Students for Israel (HSI), had previously accused HIPJ of being too tolerant of anti-Semitic sentiments expressed over its e-mail lists."

src: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=357014

The lying liars, eh?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 13 January 2004 12:09 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok. Lemme get this straight.

Someone "goes undercover", and makes inflammatory posts on a message-board under an assumed name in order to invent the case he wants to make that a certain group harbors extreme racists?

The mind boggles at the amount of time this guy must have on his hands to go around pulling this kind of BS.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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Babbler # 3838

posted 13 January 2004 02:11 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Kinda makes you look at the anti-Semitic trolls we occasionally get on babble in a new light, huh? Are we being tested too?
From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 13 January 2004 05:35 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its very silly.

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 13 January 2004 09:19 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
“I don’t think that Harvard should be a place where people practice to become FBI or CIA agents,” said HIPJ member Daniel DiMaggio ’04. “I think that this type of behavior deserves the utmost censure on the part of the student body and all members of the Harvard community.”

Ha! I thought that was one of the reasons Harvard is there -- maybe not to find FBI recruits, but for sure for the CIA.

A provocateur. If he were in Canada, he could join the RCMP and learn how to burn down barns.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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Babbler # 3278

posted 13 January 2004 10:45 AM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are we being tested too?
Now who would EVER accuse babblers of tolerating anti-semitism?

From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 13 January 2004 11:18 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For the record it was a stupid idea. And NPP who indeed?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 13 January 2004 11:20 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aw. Group hug.

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3278

posted 13 January 2004 11:34 AM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For the record it was a stupid idea.
Isn't that what G. Gordon Liddy said about Watergate?

From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 January 2004 11:39 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NPP if you have an accusation to make please feel free to do so and be prepared to back it up. Im all eyes.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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Babbler # 3278

posted 13 January 2004 11:39 AM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Free legal advice

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Non-partisan partisan ]


From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 13 January 2004 11:52 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, God, I am never going to live that down.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 January 2004 12:00 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Non-partisan partisan:
Free legal advice

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Non-partisan partisan ]



HUH!!??

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 13 January 2004 12:03 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Quoth Mishei:

quote:
However if you were to ask, "are there elements within the left that are antisemitic OR are certain members (leaders and others) making common cause with or giving support to individuals who espouse antisemitism? ..then you have an entirely different debate. And those are the questions that many here either sluff off as irrelevant or being so miniscule in numbers as to be unworthy of discussion.

Is sloughing off as irrelevant the same as "tolerating"?

quote:
No, I am objecting to the fact that he posted TWO vile antisemitic tracts that should not be tolerated by any decent person . I am objecting to the fact that antisemitism such as the posts in question have no place on a progressive board.

I am objecting to the fact that babble would maintain these racist posts on the board. And I object to the fact that you would in any way defend these loony, racist posts.


There's more, but who needs the aggro?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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Babbler # 2

posted 13 January 2004 12:09 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Oh, God, I am never going to live that down.

Um. It's been two days.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 13 January 2004 12:12 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by audra estrones:

Um. It's been two days.


But audra: I'm sensitive.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3278

posted 13 January 2004 05:06 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is sloughing off as irrelevant the same as "tolerating"?

That depends on how you define the word "the".

From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 January 2004 05:13 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Non-partisan partisan:

That depends on how you define the word "the".


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 January 2004 05:15 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
NPP if you have an accusation to make please feel free to do so and be prepared to back it up. Im all eyes.

J'accuse, chela, of wild, wooly, wanton and wacky accusations of antisemitism...

Quoting Mishei the Mouthpiece: "Mmmm sure duplicity of Jews on the left, right middle, side, everywhere..That's just the way they are..."


http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000733

Now go crawl back under your desk....

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 January 2004 10:17 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Quoth Mishei:

There's more, but who needs the aggro?


And of course the context is missing but what else would anyone here expect??

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 January 2004 10:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

J'accuse, chela, of wild, wooly, wanton and wacky accusations of antisemitism...

Quoting Mishei the Mouthpiece: "Mmmm sure duplicity of Jews on the left, right middle, side, everywhere..That's just the way they are..."


http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000733

Now go crawl back under your desk....

[ 13 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]



Sure Courage...ooo you are one scary dude!!!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 13 January 2004 10:58 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And of course the context is missing but what else would anyone here expect??

Context?

You asked for an example of what you had denied saying. The context is irrelevant.

What else would anyone here expect?

Given your past behaviour, we should expect that you continue wearing your crown of thorns while slinging mud, I suppose.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 January 2004 08:49 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Context?

You asked for an example of what you had denied saying. The context is irrelevant.

What else would anyone here expect?

Given your past behaviour, we should expect that you continue wearing your crown of thorns while slinging mud, I suppose.



It seems to me that you are trying to mislead Babblers. That's not nice but for you par for the course. Of course i have pointed to statements made on this board that I feel were antisemitic. Where have I EVER denied that?

Yes, Al just another page in your "let's demonize Israel supporters with whatever means possible"!! Ah well such is our lot.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 14 January 2004 10:00 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
quote:Is sloughing off as irrelevant the same as "tolerating"?


That depends on how you define the word "the".


I wish to contest this hotly. Or is that heatedly? Whatever.

Anyway, I dispute disputes over how we define the word "the." I am still in the camp of those who believe that what matters is what the meaning of "Is" is. So there.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3278

posted 14 January 2004 10:38 AM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
1. The guy who's features most prominently, Eric Trager, is probably my favorite undergrad at Harvard. .... Brilliant and fierce and knee-slapping funny. Maybe a little crazy, too. He's prone to odd body contortions and mannerisms. And he cracks me up. The first time I saw him he shouting anti-Semitic slogans at a line of people waiting to enter an Alan Dershowitz talk. Very provocative guy, always trying to get a rise out of people.
More on Trager Looks like it's not the first time Trager has engaged in these kinds of tactics.

From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 14 January 2004 11:08 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

It seems to me that you are trying to mislead Babblers. That's not nice but for you par for the course. Of course i have pointed to statements made on this board that I feel were antisemitic. Where have I EVER denied that?


Here's what you said, Mish:

quote:
And NPP who indeed? ...

...NPP if you have an accusation to make please feel free to do so and be prepared to back it up. Im all eyes.


I provided evidence that you suggested antisemitism is "tolerated" on babble, which was the issue. How is that misleading?

By saying "...i have pointed to statements made on this board that I feel were antisemitic. Where have I EVER denied that?" you are dodging the original point and trying to confuse the issue. Who is being misleading here?

Are you still all eyes?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 January 2004 11:40 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

I provided evidence that you suggested antisemitism is "tolerated" on babble, which was the issue. How is that misleading?

By saying "...i have pointed to statements made on this board that I feel were antisemitic. Where have I EVER denied that?" you are dodging the original point and trying to confuse the issue. Who is being misleading here?

Are you still all eyes?



You call this evidence?!! I hope you are not a lawyer

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3278

posted 14 January 2004 11:49 AM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You call this evidence?!! I hope you are not a lawyer
I hope you're never a witness!

TYPICAL DISCUSSION aka "Who's on first?"
M - "You're an anti-semite and babblers slough it off"
P - "how is criticizing israeli government policy anti-semitic?"
M - "I never said that you were anti-semitic, just your comments. But your denial is proof enough. If you weren't an anti-semite you would be agreeing with me."
P - "Exactly how do babblers tolerate anti-semitism"
M - "I never said that but the fact that I'm the only one to point out your anti-semitism is proof enough that babblers slough off anti-semitic comments."
P - "But those were your exact words"
M - "You're taking me out of context. Show me where I said that. You'd better have the proof. What I said was, 'you're an anti-semite and babblers slough it off' which is totally different than 'you're an anti-semite and babblers tolerate it'. Sheesh."
P -
M - "The fact that you would twist my words to make cheap political points is proof enough of your anti-semitism. You should be banned but since babblers tolerate anti-semitism, no one is going to complain to the moderator except me which proves my point. "
P - "And what was your point again?"
M - "My point is that I have NEVER accused anyone of anti-semitism although i may have occasionally pointed out comments that were obviously anti-semitic. Even Daniel Pipes would agree with me on this one."

[ 14 January 2004: Message edited by: Non-partisan partisan ]


From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 14 January 2004 11:51 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, I don't call this evidence.

I call where I quoted you saying that babblers "sluff [sic] off as irrelevant" questions of whether "there [are] elements within the left that are antisemitic OR are certain members (leaders and others) making common cause with or giving support to individuals who espouse antisemitism" as evidence of you saying that babblers tolerate antisemitism.

[ 14 January 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 14 January 2004 11:57 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Non-Partisan Partisan, that summary was brilliant.

It also explains why so many never bother with the Middle East threads any more...which leads me to question why anyone bothers.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3278

posted 14 January 2004 12:01 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I keep asking that but people keep taking the bait which isn't to say there's not other valuable dialogue on some of these threads but they're extremely laborious and often repetitive. Babble is a form of intellectual recreation so "to each their own".
From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830

posted 14 January 2004 12:10 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Non-partisan partisan:
I hope you're never a witness!

TYPICAL DISCUSSION aka "Who's on first?"
M - "You're an anti-semite and babblers slough it off"
P - "how is criticizing israeli government policy anti-semitic?"
M - "I never said that you were anti-semitic, just your comments. But your denial is proof enough. If you weren't an anti-semite you would be agreeing with me."
P - "Exactly how do babblers tolerate anti-semitism"
M - "I never said that but the fact that I'm the only one to point out your anti-semitism is proof enough that babblers slough off anti-semitic comments."
P - "But those were your exact words"
M - "You're taking me out of context. Show me where I said that. You'd better have the proof. What I said was, 'you're an anti-semite and babblers slough it off' which is totally different than 'you're an anti-semite and babblers tolerate it'. Sheesh."
P -
M - "The fact that you would twist my words to make cheap political points is proof enough of your anti-semitism. You should be banned but since babblers tolerate anti-semitism, no one is going to complain to the moderator except me which proves my point. "
P - "And what was your point again?"
M - "My point is that I have NEVER accused anyone of anti-semitism although i may have occasionally pointed out comments that were obviously anti-semitic. Even Daniel Pipes would agree with me on this one."


rofl


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 January 2004 12:10 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's get back to the basics, excuse my confusion, ...as i understand it you are accusing me of claiming somewhere on this post that I NEVER claimed babblers tolerate antisemitism? If that is the case I cant find it.

Let me try to be clear, IMHO, there have been times that certain babblers have engaged in antisemitic comment. Now clearly those that I believe engaged in this comment agressively disagreed as did many babblers. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone is entitled to diasagree.

All this stated I can only say, uh huh i have pointed to antisemitic rhetoric here and yes i do believe it was tolerated in the sense that other posters disagreed it was antismitic. So what's your point?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 January 2004 12:19 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NPP said:

quote:
Now who would EVER accuse babblers of tolerating anti-semitism?

You responded to this by telling him that if he has an accusation to make, to back it up.

So others found instances where you've accused babblers of tolerating anti-semitism, which is the "back up" you asked for.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3278

posted 14 January 2004 12:19 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle - you're obfuscating the issue!

In any case, why would anyone, including Mishei, think I was talking about him? He would make a good lawyer though, wouldn't he?

[ 14 January 2004: Message edited by: Non-partisan partisan ]


From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2474

posted 14 January 2004 12:51 PM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
NPP wrote: That depends on how you define the word "the".

Skdadl wrote: I wish to contest this hotly. Or is that heatedly? Whatever. Anyway, I dispute disputes over how we define the word "the." I am still in the camp of those who believe that what matters is what the meaning of "Is" is. So there.


JM Coetzee wrote:

quote:
"In the transports of unrehearsed speech, the subject utters truths unknown to his waking self ... To me...truth is related to silence, to reflection, to the practice of writing. Speech is not a fount of truth but a pale and provisional version of writing."

I think most of us can agree then, that there is hardly any excuse for messy thinking on the page. Why should there be, when one has the time to think? The martini is one exception; illiteracy is another. They're closely related.


From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 14 January 2004 12:51 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In any case, why would anyone, including Mishei, think I was talking about him? He would make a good lawyer though, wouldn't he?

Lawyer, perhaps, but woe unto the courtroom over which he would preside as judge.

quote:
All this stated I can only say, uh huh i have pointed to antisemitic rhetoric here and yes i do believe it was tolerated in the sense that other posters disagreed it was antismitic. So what's your point?

You're blinding yourself with your own fog, I guess.

Since everyone else gets the point we may as well move on...

[ 14 January 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 January 2004 03:54 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
NPP said:

You responded to this by telling him that if he has an accusation to make, to back it up.

So others found instances where you've accused babblers of tolerating anti-semitism, which is the "back up" you asked for.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.


This is a real mix-up in communication. I WAS NOT referring to me. Yes I asked him to back it up and then bingo I come up. I didnt understand his first salvo but then began to understand what was meant. Either way I think I clarified my point.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3278

posted 14 January 2004 04:12 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well I'm glad that was finally cleared up.
From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1425

posted 14 January 2004 04:19 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NPP, that was indeed brilliant, Bravo!

Courage's forays into the ME forum, while impressive, are looking uncomfortably Sisyphean to me .

Still, in comparison, the rock thing is looking doable.

[ 14 January 2004: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 January 2004 04:55 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sisyphus:
NPP, that was indeed brilliant, Bravo!

Courage's forays into the ME forum, while impressive, are looking uncomfortably Sisyphean to me .

Still, in comparison, the rock thing is looking doable.

[ 14 January 2004: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]



From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 14 January 2004 05:12 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
bittersweet: Coetzee is brilliant, isn't he. Cheers me up just to think of him.

So: Cheers!

Gee, that makes me think of martinis ...


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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