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Author Topic: Benny Morris today
Mishei
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posted 09 January 2004 02:54 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Benny Morris one of Israel's "new historians" has oft been pointed to here as someone from Israel's left who has a true understanding of the Palestinian 's historical plight.

Indeed Morris has reintepreted Israel's history to some extent opining that Israel indeed did force out numerous Palestinians from their homes in 1948.

In this light I thought the following article from Ha'aretz might interest Babblers.

Survival of the fittest


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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Babbler # 3322

posted 09 January 2004 03:11 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"When the choice is between destroying or being destroyed, it's better to destroy."

Another "man of peace", it would seem.

Let's see if I understand. This guy's saying that sure, there were rapes, murders and horrendeous atrocities, but hey, it was all worth it to form a Jewish state."

And you say this guy is from the left?


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 January 2004 06:29 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, but what's in a name? Heck, Mishei likes to call himself a 'lefty' and a 'progressive' and yet brooks no quarter when it is time to defend racism, ethnic cleansing, militarist brutality, blood and soil ideology, "accidental and regrettable" deaths of civilians, the denial of basic human rights...

[ 09 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Mishei
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posted 09 January 2004 06:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:
Yeah, but what's in a name? Heck, Mishei likes to call himself a 'lefty' and a 'progressive' and yet brooks no quarter when it is time to defend racism, ethnic cleansing, militarist brutality, blood and soil ideology, "accidental and regrettable" deaths of civilians, the denial of basic human rights...

[ 09 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


Hey Courage Google Benny Morris and determine if indeed he was/is considerd a lefty before you go into areas you know little about.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 January 2004 06:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, this thread is starting off well.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 January 2004 06:50 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Hey Courage Google Benny Morris and determine if indeed he was/is considerd a lefty before you go into areas you know little about.

Some have called him such, and since the point was about 'names' and how they are slippery, it doesn't much matter what he 'really' is/was... In essence, your argument is a non sequitor.

Moreover, his political leanings do not necessarily reflect or connect with his academic contributions. Whether or not he is a raving Trotskyist or a raving Sharonite Fascist makes little difference to the question of 'facts' in his historical work.

Anyway, as to your challenge, I likely have forgotton more about Benny Morris' contributions to this world (at least in the academic vein) than you currently know. In fact, this has been demonstrated a couple of times in the thread archives...

As I recall, you linked to a Benny Morris article which you figured supported some niggly point or other when, in fact, the interpretation you made of Morris' research was entirely the opposite of his own conclusions and you failed to note the revision. It was summarily demonstrated that I had read and digested the specific work in question, while you were relying on a second-hand piece written about Morris' work by a third source. Specifically, the subject in question was the 'Fedayeen Raids' in the 1950's and 1960's and Israel's "response" to them - http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000603&p=

Some call it 'plagiarism' - I call it 'lying'...

[ 09 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Courage
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posted 09 January 2004 07:23 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nothing is suprising about Morris' seeming duplicity. There is a long tradition on the left in Israel, going back to Ben-Gurion and Meir (among many others) of believing in the superiority of Jews and the Zionist enterprise over the competing nationalism of the Palestinians. In fact, what this amounts to is the infection of what is nominally 'socialism' with nationalist drivel - i.e. national socialism. The belief was (and is) that since Israel and the Jews represented a morally and technologically 'progressive' force ("made the desert bloom" and all that jazz) that this justified their actions toward the Arabs who are considered economically backward, socially regressive, and politically immature. Sure, they were 'socialists', but they were 'Jews First' socialists. Essentially, the Revisionists and Socialists were all FOR Zionism (and against Arabs); their differences largely amount to how The Jewish State would operate internally. Alternately, the admission that atrocities were carried out to create a Jewish State is couched in Stalin-esque 'realist' terms - a sort of 'regrettable' cost of creating the new state.

[ 09 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Mishei
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posted 10 January 2004 12:09 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:
Nothing is suprising about Morris' seeming duplicity. There is a long tradition on the left in Israel, going back to Ben-Gurion and Meir (among many others) of believing in the superiority of Jews and the Zionist enterprise over the competing nationalism of the Palestinians. In fact, what this amounts to is the infection of what is nominally 'socialism' with nationalist drivel - i.e. national socialism. The belief was (and is) that since Israel and the Jews represented a morally and technologically 'progressive' force ("made the desert bloom" and all that jazz) that this justified their actions toward the Arabs who are considered economically backward, socially regressive, and politically immature. Sure, they were 'socialists', but they were 'Jews First' socialists. Essentially, the Revisionists and Socialists were all FOR Zionism (and against Arabs); their differences largely amount to how The Jewish State would operate internally. Alternately, the admission that atrocities were carried out to create a Jewish State is couched in Stalin-esque 'realist' terms - a sort of 'regrettable' cost of creating the new state.

[ 09 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]



Mmmm sure duplicity of Jews on the left, right middle, side, everywhere..That's just the way they are...

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 January 2004 12:29 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Courage, Courage, perhaps your clearly evident analytic skills are better used elsewhere.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 10 January 2004 12:34 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Mmmm sure duplicity of Jews on the left, right middle, side, everywhere..That's just the way they are...

I think he was speaking specifically of Morris.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
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posted 10 January 2004 12:39 AM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Courage: The Arab News is looking for good English sounding names to write for their august publication. Perhaps William Baker can use a ghost writer.

Benny Morris was part of a movement that sought to build bridges between the Palestinians and Israelis during the euphoria of the Oslo Agreement by creating a viable narrative under which the Israelis could accept the concessions they were offering to make. Like many, I found Morris ignored fact in order to achieve his hopes of finding peace with the Palestinians. His latest comments are emblematic of his frustration with the fact that the Palestinians do not seek peace, only the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Middle East and will not stop at anything to achieve their aims. Having once had a large chunk of the Jewish world go relatively passively while much of the world watched to their death at the hands of Hitler, he can only advocate that the Jewish people defend themselves because no one else will.


From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 10 January 2004 12:40 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

I think he was speaking specifically of Morris.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!


Really..perhaps your glasses need cleaning. Read this:

quote:
There is a long tradition on the left in Israel, going back to Ben-Gurion and Meir (among many others)...

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
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posted 10 January 2004 12:42 AM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The response to Benny Morris's ecumenism was the following:

http://www.usefulwork.com/shark/archives/001319.html#001319

http://www.usefulwork.com/shark/archives/001331.html#001331


From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 10 January 2004 12:44 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the article:

quote:
I don't hear you condemning him.

"Ben-Gurion was right. If he had not done what he did, a state would not have come into being. That has to be clear. It is impossible to evade it. Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here."


That's a pretty damning indictment of the lack of morality and ethics with which Ben-Gurion pursued the program of securing the Jewish base within Israel as then constituted.

quote:
"There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. You have to dirty your hands."

I find it amusing that Morris casts his lot in with the likes of V.I. Lenin and J.V. Stalin.

Lenin and Stalin both put forth the idea that, just as Morris has done, the Communist government in Russia required people with a singular lack of compassion or ethics when dealing with alleged "class enemies".

In particular, Stalin's thesis is not so different from Morris's casual statement "When the choice is between destroying or being destroyed, it's better to destroy." It is to be recalled that Stalin was a believer in the "siege mentality" way of looking at the outside world, and that the conflict between the Marxist and the capitalist worlds would intensify, rather than abate, over time. The conclusion that Stalin made, and which warped an entire country for years afterwards, was virtually identical to Morris's. He believed that the Soviets should at all times and at all places act with the utmost suspicion that outsiders were plotting to destroy the USSR, and that it was thus permissible to use all sorts of tactics ranging from blackmail, murder, to funding covert wars and secret operations, in order to fight against real and imagined enemies from within and without.

quote:
"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."

Good Lord. Morris really has gone round the bend, off the cliff, and is now sailing down into the abyss below.

Morris here has not just allied himself with Communists, who at least pretended that what they were doing had some higher calling, or some noble motive.

He has allied himself with the basest examples of humanity ranging from Adolf Hitler to Slobodan Milosevic. If any German said what Morris said above, he would be slapped with a profession ban so fast it would make his head spin.

If any white-supremacist idiot said that in the USA or Canada, he or she would rightly be considered a troglodyte and a moron.

But because Benny Morris says it, he's immune from that sort of criticism.

The most dangerous retrograde ideas are the ones that get a veneer of academic credibility.

[ 10 January 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
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posted 10 January 2004 01:10 AM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually what Benny Morris said was that I would prefer my people ethnically cleanse people who would commit a genocide against my people.

Now what is the message on the other side?


From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
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posted 10 January 2004 01:12 AM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is the society that Benny Morris thought he could make peace with:

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/?imgIndex=3&autoShow=6

Who are the true criminals here?


From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 10 January 2004 01:14 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"The Israeli Arabs are a time bomb. Their slide into complete Palestinization has made them an emissary of the enemy that is among us. They are a potential fifth column. In both demographic and security terms they are liable to undermine the state. So that if Israel again finds itself in a situation of existential threat, as in 1948, it may be forced to act as it did then. If we are attacked by Egypt (after an Islamist revolution in Cairo) and by Syria, and chemical and biological missiles slam into our cities, and at the same time Israeli Palestinians attack us from behind, I can see an expulsion situation. It could happen. If the threat to Israel is existential, expulsion will be justified."

Jesus fucking Christ. Benny Morris has gone absolutely stark raving paranoiacally bonkers.

You know, racists of all kinds often accuse their target race of being an "alien element", or a "fifth column", or a "seditious group", or some equivalent statement thereof.

If this is the kind of attitude problem that is percolating its way through Israeli society, then I give up. I absolutely, 100%, give up.

[ 10 January 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 10 January 2004 03:39 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Mmmm sure duplicity of Jews on the left, right middle, side, everywhere..That's just the way they are...

Late for you to be working, eh mouthpiece?

Try arguing the facts of the case. You have simply extracted one term (duplicity) out of context without any reference to the specific paradox of opinions (a matter of fact) from which the charge of duplicitousness arises. I made a specific argument about specific people and a specific stream of thought which can be found among the nominally 'leftist' camp in Israel. Can you argue the specifics? I doubt it.

Your emotive smilies are indicative of your lack of a true factual argument. The question is: can you deny that the record among many on the Israeli left of calling themselves 'socialists' while pursuing a nationalist/Jewish supremacist project? Please begin there, rather than with your ridiculous - nay, laughable - attempt to stop the discussion with the trite 'antisemitic' charge absent of any evidence. It's got to be embarrassing for you by now, no? You should know by now that I'm not willing to be cowed by such boring, weak tactics. You'll have to cast a better spell, novice.

Please be sure to include references to Ben-Gurion's feelings about transfer and Golda Meir's famous "there are no Palestinians" quip, just for starters...not to mention Morris' above-quoted apologetics for ethnic cleansing.

It would seem that even Morris (who apologises for him) finds Ben-Gurion to have been of the exact mindset I discussed: i.e. a 'socialist' who thought that ethnic cleansing is a fine idea as long as it makes room for a Jewish state. Again, we are dealing with simple facts - was Ben-Gurion of this opinion or not; is one of the key debates between 'left' and 'right' in Israel largely about the 'internal' dynamics of the state while the issue of how to deal with the Arabs (expulsion, occupation, and force) is one where there is a broad consensus? Please answer this question with specific reference to the historical personages that I have specifically mentioned. Again, deal with the facts.

Who's the one with the 'antisemitism' disease of the mind, Mishei? Looks to me like your intellectual life is barren and empty without it...

[ 10 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 10 January 2004 03:44 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
....

[ 10 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Cueball
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posted 10 January 2004 01:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stalin was also a proponent of ethnic celansing as the Germans of East Prussia found out. He also 'transferred' huge Soviet minority populations, including the Chechens east of the Urals. Defence is one thing, invasion and expropriation is another.

Morris: "So that if Israel again finds itself in a situation of existential threat, as in 1948..."

Existential threat?!

A sidewise admission that the threat of 1948 was an internal psychological dilema of Zionist Jews, and had little to do with the facts on the ground in Palestine. If I feel 'self doubt,' I must remove the 'perceived' cause of 'self doubt' by destroying it. In this case Arabs, it would seem.

Benny Hill (excuse me I mean Morris) puts Sarte and Camus at the service of the lowest kind of racialist philosophy. Hilarious.

A circus of philosophical concepts, where the fat lady tames the lions and the lion tamer rides the midget's bicycle.

[ 10 January 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 10 January 2004 01:37 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ethnic cleansing has a long history. Some would say that the US policy of sending native people to reserves was "ethnic cleansing".

Certainly, the policies of Woodrow Wilson at Versailles, such as national self determination, included a strong possibility that minority ethnicities would be removed from states not "their own".

I thought everybody agreed nowadays that it was wriong, though, and that race shouldn't determine rights.

I can't imagine that a Jewish state would ever follow such a shortsighted policy.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 10 January 2004 02:11 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Existential threat?!

[/QB]


Yeah, somehow the poor, backward, socially and politically regressive - never mind stupid, ignorant, and hot-headed - fellah became the greatest threat the Jewish people had ever seen...

It's the same with many invidious ideologies of ethnicity/race - somehow the figure of the outgroup is simultaneously stupid, ignorant, passive and politically primitive -- AND -- clever, cunning, and has many and varied organisations long dedicated to the destruction of the ingroup....

This model fits the stereotypes of Arabs popular in our society (which includes Israel) to a 't'...

[ 10 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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beluga2
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posted 10 January 2004 03:17 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.

I can't believe he actually said that. My God!

Like DrC and others have said, with this interview, Morris has literally descended to the moral level of Milosevic and Pol Pot. The explicit justification of brutal crimes against humanity in pursuit of some self-invented, self-justifying "higher purpose". You've hit the nadir, Benny.

His only redeeming characteristic is that at least he's honest enough to accurately document Israeli atrocities. Giving those of us who actually retain some sense of morality a useful archive we can use against the perpetration of further atrocities like the ones he so openly admires.

He actually said that...?

quote:
Mmmm sure duplicity of Jews on the left, right middle, side, everywhere..That's just the way they are...

A couple days ago Mishei was denying that he ever hurls unwarranted charges of anti-Semitism against babblers; now he comes out with this. My oh my.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 10 January 2004 04:05 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by beluga2:

A couple days ago Mishei was denying that he ever hurls unwarranted charges of anti-Semitism against babblers; now he comes out with this. My oh my.


Yes I said unwarranted...and here I was not making any accusations just noted the need to be careful in using language

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 January 2004 04:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Edited for clarity and language: Forget it.

[ 10 January 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 10 January 2004 05:41 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, your boy Benny Morris shot his mouth off, and all you can do is sidebar into some nitpicky argument over what you said somewhere else?

I guess that shows how much you care about the fact that a respected Jewish historian is saying words that Pol Pot might have said. If it had been anybody else you would be screaming the rooftop off about it.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 10 January 2004 05:57 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Mishei, your boy Benny Morris shot his mouth off, and all you can do is sidebar into some nitpicky argument over what you said somewhere else?

I guess that shows how much you care about the fact that a respected Jewish historian is saying words that Pol Pot might have said. If it had been anybody else you would be screaming the rooftop off about it.


WHOA where does Benny Morris all of a sudden become "my boy". I posted this article because he was the "left's" boy particularly the left who looked to Morris to validate israel's pre-independance history.

That said, he is without question from the left of the political spectrum, albeit a Zionist, not unlike many other Israeli leftists who support a Jewish state, Something than many here have trouble with it seems. That is not to say that Israeli left-wing Zionists support Morris' take on things. However he is widely respected as a historian of note world-wide.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 January 2004 06:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
WHOA where does Benny Morris all of a sudden become "my boy". I posted this article because he was the "left's" boy particularly the left who looked to Morris to validate israel's pre-independance history.

That said, he is without question from the left of the political spectrum, albeit a Zionist, not unlike many other Israeli leftists who support a Jewish state, Something than many here have trouble with it seems. That is not to say that Israeli left-wing Zionists support Morris' take on things. However he is widely respected as a historian of note world-wide.


Oopsies. This is what the logicians call "the argument from authority" -- and they call it that in the course of listing logical fallacies.

In other words, chicks, never argue that way. Prove your point, but please avoid dropping names.

jeff house has made a practical point above. We all know that all sorts of people have been "ethnically cleansing" their territories from time immemorial. As jeff house says, a lot of us -- and maybe enough of us -- have recently agreed that this has just plain got to stop.

Poor Benny Morris. It sounds as though he once had a mind, and a rep.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 January 2004 06:20 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He is not on the left. Neither is Pol Pot, Stalin, or any of there ilk. Sorry, there were Nazi's who thought of their party as being on the left, socially. Anti-humanism, such as support for ethnic cleansing makes you right wing, no matter what party you belong too, and wether or not you think the racially pure should live communally and have access to state subsidized healthcare.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 10 January 2004 06:31 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Benny Morris one of Israel's "new historians" has oft been pointed to here as someone from Israel's left who has a true understanding of the Palestinian 's historical plight.

Emphasis added. I beg your pardon? I just availed myself of the babble search engine, and the only one who has ever pointed to Benny Morris in a context like that you describe is, wait for it, you.

As for this:

quote:
..and here I was not making any accusations just noted the need to be careful in using language

Given the frequency with which your posts are interpreted as accusations, perhaps you should take your own advice.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 January 2004 06:42 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just went back and read the original link.

Hegel warned, you know, against "becoming what you behold," and I would say that that is what has happened to this man.

I got more than half-way through the interview.

But when he started making fine distinctions between the "genocide" faced by Israelis and the (to him preferable) "ethnic cleansing" of the Palestinians, I just quit.

The man is, or has become, an ideologue.

And this is a man who knows just how many dead bodies there were, too. How many rapes. How many war crimes. And he still thinks it was and is justified.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 10 January 2004 07:18 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Yes I said unwarranted...and here I was not making any accusations just noted the need to be careful in using language

I was very careful, Mishei. I named names, suggested a geneology of a specific concept and was very specific about which arguments I felt were duplicitous and paradoxical. I made no mention of 'the right' or (the kicker) Jews in general - all this detail was added by your own paranoic imagination and apparent desire to use 'antisemitism' to stop any discussion you find to be impolitic...

Your reckless extraction of the word 'duplicity' from the context it was presented in, and your subsequent accusation of antisemitism (de facto as it were, likely due to your lack of the courage to say what you mean, I would say) was patently un-careful use of language...

What's good for the goose...

[ 11 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 January 2004 02:22 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I came across this page, The Chilling Interview of Benny Morris , a couple of days ago.

I had seen previously that Mishei started a thread on Benny Morris, but as I have dismissed Morris as worthless racist because of his views on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, I didn't bother to look at the thread.

I thought that this article must have been a counter-argument to that which Mishei had linked, because it showed Morris to have worse than unsavoury views. I then checked this thread and was shocked to see that they were the same article.

I cannot fathom why Mishei would post this interview. Is this another salvo in his efforts to demonize the left, by showing how repulsive even Zionist "leftists" can be?

Does he intend to put Arik Sharon in a better light, by suggesting that the "leftist" alternative to the Likud's brutal policies towards the Palestinians could resemble Pol Pot or Stalin?

I do not know what to make of this.

[ 15 January 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 January 2004 03:36 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
But when he started making fine distinctions between the "genocide" faced by Israelis and the (to him preferable) "ethnic cleansing" of the Palestinians, I just quit.

The man is, or has become, an ideologue.

And this is a man who knows just how many dead bodies there were, too. How many rapes. How many war crimes. And he still thinks it was and is justified.


skdadl, he's not an ideologue. He's just plain bonkers. Dignifying him with the term "ideologue" is putting him in too high a category of regard.

Benny Morris is a human being and that alone renders him some basic respect due him as a result, but that will not stop me from registering extreme distaste for his views and my very low opinion of his worldview.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 January 2004 12:08 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know if "bonkers" is the term I'd use for Morris.

"Honest" does come to mind, though.

He seems to have arrived at his conclusions through a rational process. What is really disturbing is that this rationality leads him to such an amoral conclusion.

"Banal" is another word that seems apt to describe Morris' views.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 15 January 2004 01:48 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, maybe a certain type of "bonkers". Are there any psych majors out there?

Would someone who uses a rational process to arrive at amoral conclusions be considered "sociopathic," or can rationality be a factor at all?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 15 January 2004 02:05 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Even the great American democracy could not have been created without the annihilation of the Indians. There are cases in which the overall, final good justifies harsh and cruel acts that are committed in the course of history."

He does, in other portions of the interview, seem to express sympathy for the Palestinians. However, that could be lacking in authentic sincerity. This terrible justification by placing ends ahead of means is awful.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged

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