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Author Topic: Open debate within Israeli society
Mishei
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posted 06 January 2004 12:50 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am always heartened when I read articles and comment like the two linked below. While i may not agree with all their various views, it speaks mightly to the fact that within Israel there remains a vibrant democracy ready to discuss and debate civily within the parameters of a recognized and forever Jewish state.

Ha'aretz 1

Ha'aretz 2


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 January 2004 02:09 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by Mishei:

"I am always heartened when I read articles and comment like the two linked below. While i may not agree with all their various views, it speaks mightly to the fact that within Israel there remains a vibrant democracy ready to discuss and debate civily within the parameters of a recognized and forever Jewish state."


Baiting a little bit there, Mishei?

As attested to by Haaretz, Israel does have a "vibrant" and "civil" journalism. I wish every Jew in North America read Haaretz's coverage of the occupation. That way they wouldn't be susceptible to the pandering and demagougery by too many politicians, at least in the U.S., regarding Israel.

However, I have to add that the paper's neo-liberal posturing when it comes to economic issues, as typified by the editorial page and Messrs. Strasler and Tal, is truly appalling.

[ 06 January 2004: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 January 2004 02:18 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
a recognized and forever Jewish state.

If Israel is a "forever Jewish state" then why is it wrong for a Palestinian sitting in the midst of the rubble of what used to be their home to say that it was done by Jews, rather than saying it was done by "Israelis". According to your definition of Israel, those two terms are interchangeable, are they not?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 06 January 2004 02:36 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I may regret sticking my neck in here, but is it fair to say that while nearly all Israelis are Jews, not all Jews are Israeli?

As an example, the newly independent state of Africastan may proudly declare that they are a Black state, but if they fire a missile at their neighbours it would be a little too loose to say "Blacks did it", no?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 January 2004 02:39 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From Mishei's first link:

quote:
We have committees of inquiry investigating how and why Palestinian women and children were killed in this or that operation.

This or that operation?!? This or that???!!!

Let me guess. That article was written by Margaret Wente, yes?


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Michelle
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posted 06 January 2004 02:50 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with you totally, Magoo.

This is the inconsistency I'm trying to highlight. In another thread, Mishei criticizes Jenin Jenin, because a person whose home and family were destroyed by "The Jewish State" blames "the Jews" for it. Well, "the Jews" in that context are the Israelis. The Jews in that area are Israelis. And Mishei himself has stated that Israel is "The Jewish State" and that the state should be defined by its religion. So how is it hateful for a Palestinian to refer to Israeli citizens in that region as "Jews"?

This is why I think it's a mistake to define a state on religious terms. How can Israel be the "forever Jewish state"? The only way to ensure that is to either create an apartheid system where only Jews are favoured for citizenship rights, or to encourage a national breeding program where Jewish women are encouraged to breed as much as possible, or to discourage Arab women from having children.

And my point was also that there's a desire to have it both ways here - the desire to have Israel acknowledged as the "forever Jewish state" and the claim that the vast majority of Jews support Israel as Mishei does; and yet also, the desire when criticism of Israel comes around, for "Israelis" and "Jews" to be completely divorced terms.

[ 06 January 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 January 2004 05:01 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As i posted in another thread:

quote:
In terms that may be difficult for me to express, Israel is the Jewish state but it's citizens are not all Jews. Indeed there are Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Buddhists even secularists that are citizens of the Jewish state. Hence the citizens and people of Israel should be referred to as Israelis.
Iran is an Islamic state but its inhabitants are not referred to as Islamic or Muslims they are properly referred to as Iranians. The same would hold true for Israel.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 06 January 2004 07:01 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam....
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Michelle
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posted 06 January 2004 07:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fine. If all its citizens are not Jews, then what makes it a Jewish state? And if it is a Jewish state, then what does that make it's non-Jewish citizens? Second class?

Also, I think it's interesting that you used Iran as your analogy. Iran isn't exactly known for its empowerment of other religions. People born as other religions are allowed to practice them there, but Muslims cannot convert, and people of other religions can only ever have a tiny minority representation in the Iranian government so that they will have no political influence whatsoever.

So you compare Israel to a theocracy like Iran, huh? Interesting.

[ 06 January 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 January 2004 07:50 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suppose this invites the old "is it a Jewish state or is it a democracy" discussion...

By calling it a "Jewish State" one necessarily has to compare it with theocratic or "Islamic" states such as Iran.

It's interesting that Mishei finds racist crap like this heartening:

quote:
While we quarrel bitterly over ways to solve the conflict, the Palestinian government has only one way, and it begins and ends with violence. The Palestinians imbibe hatred of Israel with their mothers' milk.

There's that terror gene again.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is supposed to be, but here's a heartening story in today's Arab press.

Arab world must confront plight of migrant workers

This article is less heartening:

Today marks the beginning of a new year, one which will either begin to dispel that dark and dismal cloud that has long enveloped this grief-ridden Arab world or will, like the last one, bring only more destruction and desolation. As is often the case with year ends, I was stirred by the spirit of contemplation and endeavoured to pinpoint a specific event that would encapsulate what has happened to the Arab world, and speculate what tomorrow may bring.

[ 06 January 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 January 2004 08:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tis a humour thread?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 January 2004 10:21 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Fine. If all its citizens are not Jews, then what makes it a Jewish state? And if it is a Jewish state, then what does that make it's non-Jewish citizens? Second class?

Also, I think it's interesting that you used Iran as your analogy. Iran isn't exactly known for its empowerment of other religions. People born as other religions are allowed to practice them there, but Muslims cannot convert, and people of other religions can only ever have a tiny minority representation in the Iranian government so that they will have no political influence whatsoever.

So you compare Israel to a theocracy like Iran, huh? Interesting.

[ 06 January 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]



Now you are just being silly. The comparision was only to have you understand terms. Ahhh but you look for anything that might in some way cast negative aspersions on israeli society. No need Michelle...chill out a bit.

Non-Jewish citizens of Israel are not second class citizens. Yes there are issues of discrimination in Israel as in any democratic state but all citizens have equal rights. And yes they all have more rights than anywhere in the Middle East, Africa and most European nations. Stop looking for reasons to disparage Israel it is unbecoming.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 January 2004 12:13 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
I suppose this invites the old "is it a Jewish state or is it a democracy" discussion...

By calling it a "Jewish State" one necessarily has to compare it with theocratic or "Islamic" states such as Iran.

It's interesting that Mishei finds racist crap like this heartening:

There's that terror gene again.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is supposed to be, but here's a heartening story in today's Arab press.

Arab world must confront plight of migrant workers

This article is less heartening:

Today marks the beginning of a new year, one which will either begin to dispel that dark and dismal cloud that has long enveloped this grief-ridden Arab world or will, like the last one, bring only more destruction and desolation. As is often the case with year ends, I was stirred by the spirit of contemplation and endeavoured to pinpoint a specific event that would encapsulate what has happened to the Arab world, and speculate what tomorrow may bring.

[ 06 January 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


Al being his usual surly self. My point is that there is a healthy debate in Israel on these and other matters. Much healthier than in any other country within a 1000 mile radius Id say. Do I like everything that was printed in that article? Come on Al dont be a fool of course not and you know it. But I do like the fact that issues ALL ISSUES are open for debate in Israel. If only that were so in the PA...if only....

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 January 2004 12:24 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The PA (and Arab states) have suffered a very different set of historical pressures and influences from Israel in recent history. It's not--it's never--fair to make the comparison that Mishei is making. It suggests that because they're caught at a different sort of historical period, their perspectives are somehow worth less (worthless?), whereas wonderful Israel is more legitimate. But everyone deserves the same regard.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 January 2004 12:30 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"surly self?" "fool"?

Gee whiz, Mish, you waited what, six hours, before the ad hominem attacks?

Happy New Year.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 07 January 2004 12:32 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And I am "unbecoming". Sigh. Oh well. I gave up my dream of appearing on the cover of Vogue a long time ago anyhow.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 07 January 2004 12:34 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
"surly self?" "fool"?

Gee whiz, Mish, you waited what, six hours, before the ad hominem attacks?

Happy New Year.


Quite right Al, fool was unecessary. Apologies.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 07 January 2004 12:35 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle: You can become! You can! Don't unbecome!
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 07 January 2004 12:46 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But Mandos, I already Am. There is nothing more to become!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 January 2004 12:56 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
And I am "unbecoming". Sigh.

Don't forget "silly."

As for Mish's latest backhanded shot, no worries, as I wouldn't expect a sincere apology, surly or otherwise, from that character.


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Mandos
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posted 07 January 2004 12:57 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, at least don't unbecome. It doe snot suit you. Unbecoming is unbecoming, you know.

Hmm. What are you if you are neither becoming nor unbecoming?


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 07 January 2004 01:03 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
... just simply decalmed in the darkness of mere being?
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 07 January 2004 01:41 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think you dodged Michelle's question, Mishei. I tend to avoid these threads like the plauge so I'm sure I've missed many a discussion about this topic, but I am curious about this point.

What is the criteria by which Israel is judged to be a Jewish state? How could it lose that status? And how would you avoid this, to forever ensure Israel's Jewishness?


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 07 January 2004 02:09 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Non-Jewish citizens of Israel are not second class citizens.

I guess we'll just not mention the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians under Israeli control who have virtually no citizen's rights to speak of.

And we won't mention HRW reports on the education system(s) and how Arabs are discriminated against in virtually every conceivable catagory from quality of curriculum to funding. And we won't speak of how in essentially all the lowest catagories represented in Israel government statistics on poverty that we find an absolute majority of Palestinian Arabs.

And, legally, we won't speak of the Land Laws, and the laws enshrining the theft of expelled Arab's property by the state of Israel, and we won't mention the prohibition against Arabs (except in rare instances of Druze and Bedouins) serving in the military or the preferential treatment given in government programmes to veterans. And we won't speak of the prohibition against political parties which seek the secularisation of Israeli citizenship as against the theocratic definition of Israel as a 'Jewish State'. (Is that 'normal' in a democracy?) And we won't talk about identity cards, and......well, anyone who isn't a paid mouthpiece gets my drift....

[ 07 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 07 January 2004 02:44 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The prohibition on Arabs serving in the Israeli military is patronizingly placed on the basis that "Arabs should not be made to shoot other Arabs so we will just pat them on the head and say that they need not worry about serving."

Never mind that I'm sure a good chunk of Israeli-Arabs would be only too happy to contribute to their country by doing the required military service, and upon leaving the military, become shining examples of Israeli patriots.

Furthermore re Israeli citizenship and theocracy and so on.

I find it singularly curious that an alleged "democracy" allows the entire act of marriage to be dominated by a fundamentalist religious minority Judaic sect with quite rigid views on who can get married by a rabbi. The law allows one loophole, which is that anybody married outside Israel is considered married by Israeli law, with the ridiculous spectacle of boats carrying Reform Jewish couples outside the maritime borders of Israel to "legally" marry, then coming back ashore.

I also have been told that Israel actually indicates citizenship on the basis of religion, so that an Israeli passport identifies a person as Jewish or Muslim, not simply "Israeli". If this is true, this is clearly not the work of a truly secular, modern democratic state according all citizens the right to declare themselves simply citizens of a nation.

[ 07 January 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 07 January 2004 02:58 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tis a humour thread, surely?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
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posted 07 January 2004 03:19 AM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tis now.
From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 January 2004 03:26 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We need a punchline, though.


Ha'aretz 3


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 07 January 2004 03:34 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is Mishei now going to "warn" this source close to Sharon to be "very careful" because of the "dangerous comparison"?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 07 January 2004 03:34 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now they are calling each other Nazis. How sweet.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 04 February 2004 08:15 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
According to this wonderful letter, we Canucks shouldn't even bother with injustices abroad.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 05 February 2004 02:45 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some things are inherently predictable: the sun rises in the east, spring follows winter, and people write letters to the Peak complaining about all the international-politics coverage. Hasn't changed in twenty years.
From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 09 February 2004 02:56 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not my best work, but the hell with it.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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