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Author Topic: Einstein and Zionism
Mishei
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posted 11 November 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I recall a while back a Babbler suggesting that somehow Albert Einstein was not a supporter of the Zionist cause. Isaiah Berlin wrote an essay for the New York Review of Books published on Novemeber 8 1979. In that essay he had much to say about Einstein and his relationship to Zionism.

Here are two excerpts of interest.

quote:
What general impact did his [Einstein] doctrines have? Modern theoretical physics can not, has not, even in its most general outlines, thus far been successfully rendered in popular language. But if the impact of Einstein’s scientific thought on the general ideas of his time is in some doubt, there can be none about the relevance of his non-scientific views to one of the most positive political phenomena of our time. Einstein lent the prestige mondial of his great name, and in fact gave his heart, to the movement which created the state of Israel. Einstein’s support of the Zionist movement and his interest in the Hebrew University were lifelong. He was highly critical of the university and, in particular, of its first president; he deplored the shortcomings of Zionist policy toward the Arabs; but he never abandoned his belief in the central principles of Zionism.

And here is the closing paragraph of his essay.

quote:
That Einstein, who tolerated no deviation from human decency, above all on the part of his own people – that he believed in the Zionist movement and the state of Israel and stood by through thick and thin, to the end of his life, however critical he was at times of particular men or policies – this fact is perhaps among the highest moral testimonials on which any state or any movement in this century can pride itself.

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Courage
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posted 11 November 2003 05:56 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, both sides of the issue were well represented in that discussion.

The picture is far more complex than Berlin's account.

This same 'Einstein' said "I should much rather see a reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from practical considerations, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain."

Albert Einstein: Out of My Later Years (New York, Philosophical Library, 1950), p. 263

In 1946, Einstein gave this testimony to the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry (into the Palestine Question): "The State idea is not according to my heart. I cannot understand why it is needed. It is connected with narrow-mindedness and economic obstacles. I believe that it is bad. I have always been against it."

In a letter of support of Judah Magnes' bi-national single-state proposal written to the New York Times, Einstein stated, "Besides the fact that they [Magnes and his followers] speak for a much wider circle of inarticulate people, they speak in the name of principles which have been the most significant contribution of the Jewish people to humanity."

So, that certainly mucks things up, I would say...

Besides, I've never understood the seeming obsession that people seem to have with attaching Einstein to one side of the issue or the other. Are theoretical physicists necessarily experts on morality? Politics?

[ 11 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Courage
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posted 11 November 2003 06:00 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From Berlin: this fact is perhaps among the highest moral testimonials on which any state or any movement in this century can pride itself.

Oh, come off it....


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DrConway
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posted 11 November 2003 06:57 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It should, in point of fact, be noted that Einstein was not above having his own faults with regard to his abilities in modern physics.

He sought a so-called classical unification of electromagnetism and gravitation, which was not successful, and indeed can not be successful, simply because electromagnetism is better described via quantum mechanics, whose implications Einstein also had a lot of trouble with.

It is indeed to be considered that attaching theoretical physicists to moral stances in the name of partisan debate can be, shall we say, not universally a Good Idea.


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josh
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posted 11 November 2003 07:20 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As with the reference to Martin Luther King's equation of anti-zionism with anti-semitism, Einstein's view must be put in context. He died in 1955. Were he alive today, as King, he would have a decidedly different view of the results of Zionism and, as a scientist, would understand that often that which is good in theory is not good in practice.
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DrConway
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posted 11 November 2003 08:23 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An aphorism sometimes quoted (particularly by physicists ) is: "A beautiful theory can be slain by an ugly fact."
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Smith
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posted 11 November 2003 08:58 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That Einstein, who tolerated no deviation from human decency, above all on the part of his own people – that he believed in the Zionist movement and the state of Israel and stood by through thick and thin, to the end of his life, however critical he was at times of particular men or policies – this fact is perhaps among the highest moral testimonials on which any state or any movement in this century can pride itself.

That's nice, but one would think life in Germany in the first half of the twentieth century would have taught Einstein that unconditional loyalty to a state is a bad, bad idea, and indeed this seems to be the case. Einstein was a wise man. Some of us could learn from him, if only we would take our blinkers off for once, look within our hearts and think outside the box.


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Mishei
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posted 12 November 2003 08:24 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
As with the reference to Martin Luther King's equation of anti-zionism with anti-semitism, Einstein's view must be put in context. He died in 1955. Were he alive today, as King, he would have a decidedly different view of the results of Zionism and, as a scientist, would understand that often that which is good in theory is not good in practice.
I suppose one can conjecture all sorts of things.

I prefer to believe that Einstein was a future thinker and would have realized that democratic governments come and go. Indeed he would have, I believe, held to his principle of the inherant necessity of Zionism as the national aspiration of the Jewish people. Hence is support for a Jewish state of Israel.


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Michelle
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posted 12 November 2003 08:28 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'll bet he'd support the apartheid wall too, huh?
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Smith
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posted 12 November 2003 02:35 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, because to support the existence of a state, you must also support everything the state does. Don't you know that, Michelle?
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No Yards
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posted 12 November 2003 03:48 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But if you don't support everythng a state does, and that state is Israel, aren't you then by definition an anti-Semitic??
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Mishei
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posted 12 November 2003 04:21 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I'll bet he'd support the apartheid wall too, huh?

Well I saw your "apartheid wall"...let me be clear, I am opposed to the arbitrary choice of where it will be placed however I prefer to save lives over arbitrary lines. Lines can be changed the dead can not be brought back to life

That said what I saw looked much more like a fence. Your continued attempt to equate this security measure with aprtheid is simply a sorry exercise in propaganda. Keep on telling a lie long enough people will believe it.

Go and see the fence yourself before commenting. It would help a whole lot.


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Michelle
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posted 12 November 2003 04:27 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I saw the "fence" in the threads where they showed maps and satellite pictures of it. No, I'm sorry, I can't just hop on a plane to Israel to see it.

As for saving lives - how many suicide attacks have there been since the wall has started being built? Wow, what a lifesaver it is, indeed!

The more land Israel steals from the Palestinians, the more despairing and furious they will get, and the more motivation the extremists among them will have to be violent. But then, I'm sure that's fine with Sharon, because the more violence he provokes, the more Israelis will warm to his hardline stance. Moderation spells political death for Sharon. Therefore he has no incentive whatsoever to try to come to a peaceful and just solution.


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Mishei
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posted 12 November 2003 04:27 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
But if you don't support everythng a state does, and that state is Israel, aren't you then by definition an anti-Semitic??
This is utter nonsence. Please show me where I or any other supporter of Israel has ACTUALLY said or even suggested such a thing.

Quite the contrary, I at least have held that Israeli policy, like the policies of any democracy is open to criticism. So unless you can show otherwise it will continue to stand as part of the BIG LIE propaganda machine in overdrive here by some.


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Mishei
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posted 12 November 2003 04:31 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I saw the "fence" in the threads where they showed maps and satellite pictures of it. No, I'm sorry, I can't just hop on a plane to Israel to see it.

As for saving lives - how many suicide attacks have there been since the wall has started being built? Wow, what a lifesaver it is, indeed!

The more land Israel steals from the Palestinians, the more despairing and furious they will get, and the more motivation the extremists among them will have to be violent. But then, I'm sure that's fine with Sharon, because the more violence he provokes, the more Israelis will warm to his hardline stance. Moderation spells political death for Sharon. Therefore he has no incentive whatsoever to try to come to a peaceful and just solution.



The fence has not yet been completed but there has been a significant drop in the number of attacks since it's establishment.

Im sorry you cant go see it because otherwise you are talking through ignorance.

And yes I agree that the arbitrary lines are a huge problem but I hoestly believe that if the fence brings down the number of cold blooded suicide attacks it will force Sharon's hand towards peace. Now if only Arafat could reciprocate who knows???

[ 12 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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Courage
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posted 12 November 2003 04:35 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
I suppose one can conjecture all sorts of things.

I prefer to believe that Einstein was a future thinker and would have realized that democratic governments come and go. Indeed he would have, I believe, held to his principle of the inherant necessity of Zionism as the national aspiration of the Jewish people. Hence is support for a Jewish state of Israel.


Your foray into mind-reading aside [I note that every time you attempt this act the personage in question has essentially your viewpoint, but I digress] what do you make of the statements by Einstein quoted above? It seems to me that your opinion -- based on the word of Isiah Berlin -- that Einstein held such an unequivocal opinion about Israel doesn't really wash with Einstein's own words. So, how do you justify your confidence?

Moreover, I think you are using a bait-and-switch, here. The problem is equivocation: you say 'Zionism' or 'Jewish State' and mean one thing and you assume that when someone else (say, Einstein) says 'Zionism' that they mean precisely the same thing.

Therefore, to solve this, we need you to define what you mean by 'Zionism' and 'Jewish State' so we can compare it to Einstein's own words on the subject.

BTW - do you have any direct quotations of Einstein supporting what you call 'Zionism' and 'The Jewish State' in the way you propose?

[ 12 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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DavidB-D
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posted 12 November 2003 04:36 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for saving lives - how many suicide attacks have there been since the wall has started being built? Wow, what a lifesaver it is, indeed!

There are a lot break-ins taking place all around our country everyday. But that doesn't compel us to throw away our door-locks and keys.

Nothing is perfect in life; neither is the security fence. But if it saves even one life, it's worth the effort.


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josh
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posted 12 November 2003 04:38 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Reality check, Mishei:

"Palestinian President Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) extended an olive branch to Israel on Wednesday, saying it had a right to live in security alongside a future Palestinian state and urging an end to bloodshed.

Arafat, whose offer was immediately spurned by Israel, kicked off parliamentary debate on confirming a new government and Prime Minister Ahmed Qurie followed with a pledge to seek a cease-fire with Israel and an international peace conference."

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y22A51586

Things are getting too quiet for Sharon. I predict an attack on a PLO or Hamas leader in relatively short order.


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Courage
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posted 12 November 2003 04:40 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The fence has not yet been completed but there has been a significant drop in the number of attacks since it's establishment.

Let's see the numbers.

Also, could you please define 'Jewish State' as you understand it, Mishei?

Thanks.


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Courage
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posted 12 November 2003 04:44 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:

There are a lot break-ins taking place all around our country everyday. But that doesn't compel us to throw away our door-locks and keys.

Nothing is perfect in life; neither is the security fence. But if it saves even one life, it's worth the effort.


Yup - because it's better that Palestinian mothers weep than Jewish mothers.

Do you have any evidence that it is saving lives?

Let's see the books.


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No Yards
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posted 12 November 2003 05:18 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And suppose for a second that instead of saving a single life, the fence is actually causing the death of many Palestinains (dispair, suicide, unable to get urgent medical attention, etc.???)

What then?? Or maybe you are saying that as long as it's saving Israeli lives, who gives a dam how many Palestinians have to die??

Funny how you rate the "perfection" of the fence in terms of how efficient it is at saving Israelis, and seem to care not about how it damages any one else!!??


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Courage
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posted 12 November 2003 05:28 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There have been almost 3 times as many Palestinian deaths as Israeli deaths during the current Intifada. I suspect that the hope of Sharon and his military brass is the following: That the Wall will actually start to reduce suicide attacks inside of Israel. Politically, this would be a boon for Sharon who ran on a 'security' platform. His government hopes to generate some good optics on this before the next election. More importantly, however, these men hope that they can confine the battle with the Palestinians to Israel's position of strength - the Occupied Territories. They will spurn any and all efforts at peace and actually increase the amount of IDF activity in the territories - bulldozings, assasinations, etc.. They hope that an increase in Palestinian suffering/deaths will create an increased pressure on Palestinians and their leadership to flee and/or accept a complete surrender to Israel - i.e. a 'peace' which favours Israel heavily. With the fighting confined to the Territories and the Israeli public happily basking in their new found 'safety', Sharon will have a carte blanche for his usual brutal tactics in the Occupied Territories with nary a peep from the general Israeli public.

This wall is not about 'peace'.


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WingNut
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posted 12 November 2003 10:17 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Im sorry you cant go see it because otherwise you are talking through ignorance.



Yeah, and so are you.
And sorry, it has passed the evil of apartheid and is well on its way to an evil all its own.

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DrConway
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posted 12 November 2003 11:25 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Well I saw your "apartheid wall"...let me be clear, I am opposed to the arbitrary choice of where it will be placed however I prefer to save lives over arbitrary lines. Lines can be changed the dead can not be brought back to life

Half the damn thing's been built already. Once it's built, those "lines" will become a helluva lot harder to erase, buddy.

quote:
That said what I saw looked much more like a fence. Your continued attempt to equate this security measure with aprtheid is simply a sorry exercise in propaganda. Keep on telling a lie long enough people will believe it.

Go and see the fence yourself before commenting. It would help a whole lot.


A fence?!?! A FENCE?!?!

Mishei, I just spewed my tea all over the damn monitor seeing you try to slip that pile of bullshit into the thread.

What I see in the pictures looks like one big. huge. nasty. looking. concrete. wall.

Concrete. You know what concrete is, don't you? Portland cement, mix with some salts, fine grain gravel, add water.

Stuff sets up real good.

This ain't no bleedin' white picket fence, Mishei, and you should be kicking yourself for being so oblivious to reality that you seem to think that a 20 foot high concrete wall is a dinky "fence".

"Fence", my ass.


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Blind_Patriot
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posted 12 November 2003 11:54 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Moreover, I think you are using a bait-and-switch, here. The problem is equivocation: you say 'Zionism' or 'Jewish State' and mean one thing and you assume that when someone else (say, Einstein) says 'Zionism' that they mean precisely the same thing.

Therefore, to solve this, we need you to define what you mean by 'Zionism' and 'Jewish State' so we can compare it to Einstein's own words on the subject.

BTW - do you have any direct quotations of Einstein supporting what you call 'Zionism' and 'The Jewish State' in the way you propose?

[ 12 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


Still waiting for an answer huh? Keep waiting

Speaking about fences Doc, I wanted to plant about 300 ft of Cedar hedges. They recommend 1 every foot at a price of $14.95 mighty CDN dollars for each one. I wonder if they grow wild where I can pick them If not, maybe cement might be the answer.

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Mick
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posted 13 November 2003 01:51 AM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post

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Courage
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posted 13 November 2003 01:55 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, I have a fence just like that one in my backyard. Big racoons in Trinity-Spadina.
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Sara Mayo
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posted 13 November 2003 02:35 AM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sure this has been said before, but, man, one look at the picture of the "fence" and it immediately conjures up images of the Berlin wall.
The resemblence is uncanny. Same height, same thickness, same barbed wire.
I hope I will live to see the day when this wall in brought down with the same euphoric joy that brought down the Berlin wall.

[ 13 November 2003: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]


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Mishei
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posted 13 November 2003 08:29 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

A fence?!?! A FENCE?!?!

Mishei, I just spewed my tea all over the damn monitor seeing you try to slip that pile of bullshit into the thread.

What I see in the pictures looks like one big. huge. nasty. looking. concrete. wall.

Concrete. You know what concrete is, don't you? Portland cement, mix with some salts, fine grain gravel, add water.

Stuff sets up real good.

This ain't no bleedin' white picket fence, Mishei, and you should be kicking yourself for being so oblivious to reality that you seem to think that a 20 foot high concrete wall is a dinky "fence".

"Fence", my ass.


There are a few small areas where the fence is indeed concrete. The vast extent of the fence is NOT concrete.

quote:
I'm sure this has been said before, but, man, one look at the picture of the "fence" and it immediately conjures up images of the Berlin wall.
The resemblence is uncanny. Same height, same thickness, same barbed wire.
I hope I will live to see the day when this wall in brought down with the same euphoric joy that brought down the Berlin wall.

The difference of course being that the Berlin Wall was built to keep people IN; the security fence was erected to keep murderers OUT!

[ 13 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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aRoused
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posted 13 November 2003 09:03 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is it a fence, is it a wall, blablabla.

If we're to believe Israeli authorities, the barrier to be constructed consists of (approaching from the West Bank):
- An accordion of razor wire
- A two-metre deep ditch
- A road parallel to the barrier for security vehicles
- A 3-metre high fence with electrified razor wire at the top and vibration sensors
- A second road for military vehicles
- A second accordion of razor wire, along with night-vision equipped guard towers, thermal and CCTV cameras, drone aircraft, and so on.

In sections deemed requiring 'added security', the fence will be replaced by a concrete wall up to 25 feet high.

The accumulation of all these barriers is more than just a backyard fence. It's a prison wall. In fact, it's more of a barrier than a Supermax prison's outer wall, which generally consists of something like:

- A double three-meter high chainlink fence with electrified razor wire at the top and break-rock (loose rock meant to cause people jumping down onto it to break their feet and ankles) between them.

All this talk of fences versus walls is just semantics and an attempt to dodge the real issue, which is that a complete barrier between the occupied territories and other parts of the occupied territories is planned with the rationale of protecting Israel.

So are the Palestinians that are going to be living on the 'Israel' side of the wall considered safe and not a threat? I strongly doubt that. And there are Palestinians on the 'Israel' side of the wall. 274,000 of them, to be precise.

Am I really to believe that, since the wall is meant to keep suicide bombers out, these 274,000 Palestinians are somehow 'safer' than the other Palestinians? Bull.

I'm left to conclude that it's a land grab meant to extend Israel by another 210,000 acres.


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Michelle
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posted 13 November 2003 09:06 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
The difference of course being that the Berlin Wall was built to keep people IN; the security fence was erected to keep murderers OUT!

And it's working oh so well!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 13 November 2003 09:19 AM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm curious. Can we actually get some response from Mishei on the topic he brought up, Einstein? It seems there are some legitimate questions about his supposed support for Zionism and Israel.
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Mishei
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posted 13 November 2003 11:01 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

And it's working oh so well!


Yes, I am pleased you can acknowledge this. The rate and number of suicide/murder bombings has decreased as a result. I am sure you are thankful for the lives saved.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 13 November 2003 11:13 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gentlebreeze:
I'm curious. Can we actually get some response from Mishei on the topic he brought up, Einstein? It seems there are some legitimate questions about his supposed support for Zionism and Israel.
No problem but he wrote so extensively on this issue that to transcribe it all would take much more time than I could ever spare. However I will give you the names of the original documents which you can read at your leisure:

1. Einstein on Peace (edited by O. Nathan 1960)This is a series of Einstein's original thoughts amongst them is a brilliant pro-Zionist peace he wrote on the occassion of Israel's 7th Independance day.

2. About Zionism (edited ..L Simon)

3. The World as I see it

In all these works he champions the establishment of a permanent home for the Jewish people.


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Michelle
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posted 13 November 2003 11:18 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'll bet if you put every Palestinian in a cage, Mishei, that suicide bombings would decrease too.

The ends do not justify the means. Collective punishment is against generally accepted human rights. Treating people like cattle is against their human rights even if doing so decreases suicide bombings.

Didn't stop this one - November 3rd

Didn't stop these guys - October 25th

Didn't stop this from happening - October 24th

Whoops, looks like the fence didn't stop this either - October 21st

Hmm, thought the fence was going to stop stuff like this. Guess not - October 21st

This report couldn't possibly be right - the fence would have stopped this! - October 10th

I'm sure the fence will make people like this feel much better, and encourage them to be peaceful in the face of Israeli atrocities.


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WingNut
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posted 13 November 2003 11:37 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The difference of course being that the Berlin Wall was built to keep people IN; the security fence was erected to keep murderers OUT!



Bullshit! And you know it.
The fence is designed to keep people in or why would they build it around towns separating people from their fields and water.

They are imprisoning the Palestinian population and making them totally dependent on Israeli good will for food, water and their very survival.

The state of Israel is on a fast road to fascism and worse.

And you won't be able to say you didn't know mishei. You do know and you are apologizing for it.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 13 November 2003 11:45 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I'll bet if you put every Palestinian in a cage, Mishei, that suicide bombings would decrease too.

The ends do not justify the means. Collective punishment is against generally accepted human rights. Treating people like cattle is against their human rights even if doing so decreases suicide bombings.

Didn't stop this one - November 3rdMishei; This one stopped himself

Didn't stop these guys - October 25thMishei: This was an attack against the IDF

Didn't stop this from happening - October 24thMishei: Not a suicide bomber

Whoops, looks like the fence didn't stop this either - October 21stNot a suicide bomber

Hmm, thought the fence was going to stop stuff like this. Guess not - October 21stMishei: Not a suicide bomber

This report couldn't possibly be right - the fence would have stopped this! - October 10thMishei: And while tyhis was tragically detonated it was at a checkpoint meant to stop these buggers which it did. Sadly some paid the ultimate price in defence of the jewish people.

I'm sure the fence will make people like this feel much better, and encourage them to be peaceful in the face of Israeli atrocities.


My position has been that the security fence has prevented suicide bombings and to a great degree it has. There is a big difference between suicide bombings, and engaging the IDF. The fence and checkpoints clearly save lives. All your links prove my point. And again thanks for your understanding that all life, Jewish, Muslim, Christian is prescious and if one murderer kills himself and is the only one to die the fence works.


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Mandos
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posted 13 November 2003 11:53 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And this is the reason why this conflict has taken this turn: the belief that security trumps rights. This pernicious belief lead to Maher Arar's incarceration in Syria, Guantanamo Bay's detentions, and Israel's prison wall/security fence. Whatever theoretical/ephemeral/short-term benefit it may provide, it simply prolongs the conflict, delaying the discussion of the real issues by providing a false sense of safety.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 13 November 2003 12:04 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's a real cause-and-effect question here. Suicide bombings are down to about two per month, from about three per month, since the fence began construction, in July of this year. Over the same time, however, there was progress in peace talks (The Road Map), and it looked like both sides might be coming to an agreement. Remember the fragile ceasefire that was declared, and then broken, by Fatah, Hamas, and the IDF? That weak ceasefire may have had more to do with the decrease in suicide bombings than the wall construction. I guess time will tell. There is a wall around Gaza. Why does the IDF still have a presence in Gaza if the wall does such a dandy job of containing militants?

I'm still curious as to why the wall doesn't follow the Green Line. There would be no debate about the wall being a land grab if it just stuck to that route.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 13 November 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
There's a real cause-and-effect question here. Suicide bombings are down to about two per month, from about three per month, since the fence began construction, in July of this year. Over the same time, however, there was progress in peace talks (The Road Map), and it looked like both sides might be coming to an agreement. Remember the fragile ceasefire that was declared, and then broken, by Fatah, Hamas, and the IDF? That weak ceasefire may have had more to do with the decrease in suicide bombings than the wall construction. I guess time will tell. There is a wall around Gaza. Why does the IDF still have a presence in Gaza if the wall does such a dandy job of containing militants?

I'm still curious as to why the wall doesn't follow the Green Line. There would be no debate about the wall being a land grab if it just stuck to that route.


Scars on this youu and i have a modicum of agreement

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Courage
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posted 13 November 2003 06:04 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, has the Wall stopped Palestinians from dying?

Or do things go on pretty much as before?


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Courage
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posted 13 November 2003 07:55 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
[QB]1. Einstein on Peace (edited by O. Nathan 1960)This is a series of Einstein's original thoughts amongst them is a brilliant pro-Zionist peace he wrote on the occassion of Israel's 7th Independance day.

Actually, that piece was never completed nor delivered as Einstein was dead before said anniversary.

quote:
In all these works he champions the establishment of a permanent home for the Jewish people.

Sounds to me like you are reprinting talking points, or someone else's work. Have you read the pieces above? What, exactly, does Einstein say in those pieces, Mishei?


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WingNut
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posted 13 November 2003 08:05 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What does Einstein say about this:

quote:
The rabbis believe that their organization must uphold the Jewish tradition of human rights and teach moral responsibility and biblical concern for "the stranger in your midst," even if it means in the face of danger.

And danger is omnipresent. Just the previous week, members of the rabbis' group and other volunteers said they were attacked by settlers.

‘It’s the End of the World’

Arriving at the top of the hillside on this day, the rabbis and their group of volunteers were greeted by a shocking, unexpected scene. Hundreds of olive trees had been hacked apart. There was nothing left to pick.

All of Fawzi Houssein's trees had been destroyed. "Look at this!" he cried. "This is all my land. It's the end of the world."

Click



I am sure it was done for security.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 13 November 2003 09:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Sounds to me like you are reprinting talking points, or someone else's work. Have you read the pieces above? What, exactly, does Einstein say in those pieces, Mishei?


The piece was not delivered but it was printed and can be obtained.

Courage do what I did get the piece and read it yourself. I dont answer test questions for your edification.

[ 13 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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Courage
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posted 13 November 2003 09:14 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Einstein consistently railed against chauvinism.
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Courage
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posted 13 November 2003 09:47 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
The piece was not delivered but it was printed and can be obtained.

Courage do what I did get the piece and read it yourself. I dont answer test questions for your edification.

[ 13 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


Right, that's why you needed Isaiah Berlin to make *your* point. If you are so well-versed...

Someone is fibbing.

[ 13 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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WingNut
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posted 13 November 2003 10:34 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is Sharon antisemitic?
quote:
Yet in using the barrier to protect Israel from regional threats, analysts say Sharon is exposing his country to profound internal danger. They say the barrier, along with Israeli settlement in the Palestinian territories, is tightening Israel's hold on the territories to such an extent that it could torpedo a two-state solution to this conflict. With the Palestinian birthrate set to make Jews a minority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea in a decade or so, Israel will soon face a choice: whether to be a Jewish state or a democratic one.

A wall against the two state solution

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WingNut
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posted 13 November 2003 10:45 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is everybody?
quote:
Halper's point is to explain how Israel uses non-military tools -- planning laws, architecture and geography -- as well as military hardware to herd Palestinians into the spaces it allocates them: the "Bantustan" homelands familiar from apartheid South Africa.

The pretext may be security but the goal is to stunt the growth of a popular Palestinian leadership and emasculate resistance to the occupation. Meanwhile Israel can continue its colonial theft of vital resources like land and water. Halper and others on the extreme Israeli left have begun to understand that, despite the recent "concessions" of Israel's mainstream left in signing the Geneva Accord, there is now no hope of a two-state solution.



More

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DrConway
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posted 14 November 2003 03:58 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
There are a few small areas where the fence is indeed concrete. The vast extent of the fence is NOT concrete.

You're right. It's not concrete...

It's only just a goddamned travesty. It is simply based on the notion of treating an entire people as cattle to be herded into one spot. Kind of like the Morlocks and the Eloi, assuming you read any science fiction.

quote:
The difference of course being that the Berlin Wall was built to keep people IN; the security fence was erected to keep murderers OUT!

Oh, so every Palestinian-Arab is a "murderer"? Way to generalize there, buddy.

[ 14 November 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 14 November 2003 08:07 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Right, that's why you needed Isaiah Berlin to make *your* point. If you are so well-versed...

Someone is fibbing.

[ 13 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


No the Berlin piece was seperate. The volume "Einsterin on peace" contains the writings on Zionism he was unable to deliver. And BTW what exactly is wrong with Isaiah Berlin?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 14 November 2003 08:13 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

Oh, so every Palestinian-Arab is a "murderer"? Way to generalize there, buddy.

[ 14 November 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


Dont be so damn cute. Trying to pin the "generalization" (could you mean racist?) tag on me is typical of your attempt to deligitimize the concern I hold about sageguarding innocent life.

What is clear is that most of the suicide/murder bombers come from the West Bank. They are a muderous minority of fringe extremists but you cant ignore from where they come...well maybe YOU can...but I wont and either will Israelis who seek safety for their children.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 November 2003 11:45 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Dont be so damn cute. Trying to pin the "generalization" (could you mean racist?) tag on me is typical of your attempt to deligitimize the concern I hold about sageguarding innocent life.

Funny, when I used a generalization I was antisemitic. Mishei uses one and he "safeguarding innocent life."

Typical of the hypocrisy I have come to expect from him.

And the safeguarding inncoent life is particularly hypocritical since his beloved racist state is in fact murdering helpless children by denying them the very basics of life if not destroying trees and lands and wells upon which the survival of Palestininas survive.

But forcing a people into walled ghettos, controlling every aspect of their lives, have ultimate control of life and death over them, that is not racist when it is Israelis doing it. That is legitimate self-defence. Right.

You know Mishei. Remember. You know.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 14 November 2003 02:12 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Funny, when I used a generalization I was antisemitic. Mishei uses one and he "safeguarding innocent life."

Typical of the hypocrisy I have come to expect from him.

And the safeguarding inncoent life is particularly hypocritical since his beloved racist state is in fact murdering helpless children by denying them the very basics of life if not destroying trees and lands and wells upon which the survival of Palestininas survive.

But forcing a people into walled ghettos, controlling every aspect of their lives, have ultimate control of life and death over them, that is not racist when it is Israelis doing it. That is legitimate self-defence. Right.

You know Mishei. Remember. You know.



You have really lost me now. Are you trying to suggest that the erecting of a security fence is tantamount to suicide/murder bombing??? Naaa not possible, not even from you.

And I have no clue what you mean by your last line...reads very ominous to me.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 14 November 2003 03:39 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
No the Berlin piece was seperate. The volume "Einsterin on peace" contains the writings on Zionism he was unable to deliver. And BTW what exactly is wrong with Isaiah Berlin?

Keep waving those hands and maybe I'll forget what the....er....um....what was the issue again?


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WingNut
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posted 14 November 2003 04:42 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you will pretend not to know, won't you Mishei. The racist state you apologize for is committing crimes against humanity and you are prepared to look the other way.

quote:
At a press briefing in New York, Mr. Ziegler said 9 per cent of Palestinian children under the age of five suffer some form of brain damage because of chronic malnutrition caused by the Israeli occupation.

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/031113/2003111331.html

That is today. When the fence is up and they are reduced to begging their Israelis masters for food and water, I am sure, Mishei, you will continue to deny the barbarism of the racist that is beginning to make Apartheid era South Africa appear civilized by comparison.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 14 November 2003 04:55 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
They are a muderous minority of fringe extremists but you cant ignore from where they come...well maybe YOU can...but I wont and either will Israelis who seek safety for their children.

But this is exactly what you are doing - ignoring what the West Bank is; i.e. ignoring the substance of the 'where'. More than just the site of origin of suicide bombers, The West Bank is the site of a military occupation wherin normal, everyday Palestinians (largely not suicide bombers) are kept as a lesser people - sort of like children needing discipline - by Israel. They are systematically attacked, killed, humiliated, and subject to racist laws that deny them full membership in the legal/moral order. That is also 'The West Bank'. Israeli troops daily kill, maim, and injure Palestinians with impunity. But this kind of position isn't suprising. You already like to ignore 'where' those Palestinians are from. You already like to ignore that they are from precisely 'where' your beloved Israel stands today.

But, like the Jews of the Diaspora, Palestinians can wander and wander and be pushed around, even fenced in like animals (concentrated?) and you don't particularly care.

Is the wall stopping Palestinians from dying, Mishei? When does that stop?

[ 14 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 14 November 2003 04:55 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And BTW what exactly is wrong with Isaiah Berlin?

Is there world enough and time, skdadl?

No, skdadl, not tonight, sadly enough. But you can return tomorrow, skdadl.

Ok.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 14 November 2003 05:01 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The difference of course being that the Berlin Wall was built to keep people IN; the security fence was erected to keep murderers OUT!

Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down!" I could say "Elves" to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there,
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 14 November 2003 05:09 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Is there world enough and time, skdadl?

No, skdadl, not tonight, sadly enough. But you can return tomorrow, skdadl.

Ok.


I wasn't even going to touch that one.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 November 2003 06:07 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 14 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 14 November 2003 08:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

[ 14 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


Just a matter of time before this sick and evil Jew as nazi analogy in clever form is back. Only Jews get this sort of special treatment this comparision with Nazis...not murderous China or Syria or any other sick despotic nation just the Jew...Yes such comparisions are in my book antisemitic.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
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posted 14 November 2003 08:49 PM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei if you think only Jews get these references your not the well read person that I thought you were.
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DrConway
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posted 14 November 2003 08:55 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The pictures obscured this one.

[ 15 November 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


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WingNut
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posted 14 November 2003 09:28 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I find it amazing that as Israel builds ghettos, herds Palestinians into them, and then denies them the most basic levels of human dignity and self-determination, wholly relying on their oppressors for the basics of life, and he doesn't see the parallels.

They are there and getting harder and harder to ignore.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 November 2003 09:54 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes such comparisions are in my book antisemitic.

Frankly Mish...so what?

Your "book" has two characters; Zionist and antisemite.

Here's another pictorial analogy. Have your way with it.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 14 November 2003 11:45 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Seems someone anticipated Mishei's response!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 15 November 2003 01:18 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Right, No Yards. Brazilian Carlos Latuff drew both.

He did this one too.

Damn antisemites, always preaching against hate.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mick
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posted 15 November 2003 04:21 AM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
Here's Latuff's "I am Palestinian" series in it's entirity. Personally, I think it's the best work he's done.

[ 15 November 2003: Message edited by: Mick Black ]


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Mick
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posted 15 November 2003 04:57 AM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Just a matter of time before this sick and evil Jew as nazi analogy in clever form is back.

Well, in my opinion, the analogy that Latuff is making in the final cartoon is comparing Jews to Palestinians. Notice the Jewish kid saying "I am Palestinian".

[ 15 November 2003: Message edited by: Mick Black ]


From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 15 November 2003 07:04 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps 'Jews' aren't Nazis, Mishei, but Palestinians certainly have come to inhabit the figure of 'the Jew'....

But you don't care.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 15 November 2003 02:00 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some parallels are eerie.

Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed, now have a Diaspora and long to return to Jerusalem. They are being walled into ghettos by a military that has studied SS tactics for urban warfare.

What I find completely bizarre is that Israelis are transferring methods used against Jews in Europe to their own treatment of Palestinians. Could they not have come up with a better model? Has history given them no better lessons than this? Hasn't their experience with violent racial nationalism taght them anything?

And what is really astounding is that their model was wiped out, after having earned the enmity of the whole world, save for other fascist regimes.

Perhaps the situation in Palestine demonstrates, at a large scale, how toxic a cycle of abuse can be.


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Mishei
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posted 15 November 2003 03:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Comparisions of Israeli policy to nazi policy is sick.

Every time this occurs I feel obliged (to the 6 million Jews...amongst them 1 million children...murdered by the nazis) to re-post why I feel this way.

Here was a post I put here over a year ago and have placed each time this sick comparision raises its ugly head;

quote:
That said, do you really need that history lesson? Have you never heard of Auschwitz or Treblinka. Have you never heard of the Einsatzgruppen, the Nazi killing units whose job it was to forcibly round up innocent Jews where they were then brought to a field outside of their town.. Mothers were then asked to strip their children , blindfold them, dig their own graves following which the mothers were shot first to make it more horrendous for the children? Have you never heard of Babi Yar where in the space of 24 hours tens of thousands of Jews were shot and buried in a mass grave? Have you never heard of the Mobile gas vans where Jews and Soviet prisoners of war were forced into a van 50 at a time, the exhaust pipe turned inward and the van taken on a journey of death until all the victims were gassed ? Have you never heard of Adoph Eichmann the coldly efficient Nazi civil servant who ensured that the Jews wwere properly packed into boxcars (2000 per car) no food, water and those that survived the train , well Mr. Eichman delivered them to Daeth camps. Yes I mentioned the death camps earlier. Perhaps you never heard what occured at theses camps. How women, the elderly and children under 12 were sent to the "left". That line was marched to a huge room with hooks on the wall. They were told they would be deloused. The women helped the children off with their clothes. The young ones were frightened they were wailing, crying...2500 at a time were forced into the "shower" stalls where instead of water came Zyklon B a deadly gas used to kill termites and Jews. The stronger ones climbed over the weaker ones too get to the top of the room near the ceiling for that last precious breath of air. But it really didnt matter because all were eventually gassed to death. In all in the gas chambers abour 2.5 million.
Jon there are many books detailing the unspeakable crimes of Nazism. I have but scratched the surface. I honestly did not mean to go on like this. But your challenge Jon...can you begin to get even an inkling of understanding as to why people like me and 007 and others rail at those who make these Nazi comparisions to Israel and the IDF?
I have said it before and I will say it again, such comparisions are not only shameful they humiliate the survivors of Nazism by belittling their experience. And saddest of all it trivializes the most brutal and murderous regime in the annals of history. Indeed it trivializes the murders of the poor Jewish souls, all 6 million of them that were murdered by Nazism.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 15 November 2003 03:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I'm going to post my response to you in this thread instead of in the one about the Turkish synagogue bombing, because really, it was this thread that I was reacting to anyhow when I posted my original comment there.

quote:
I am shocked that you would so bold-faacedly try to present my thoughts in such an underhanded manner. I NEVER said that this act was "the most vile antisemitic act ever committed in the history of mankind". Why you would lie about this is beyond my comprehension.
When Jews are targeted for murder, I believe, as i stated in my original post that it is "Antisemitism at its most vile". How that equates to "the most vile antisemitic act ever committed in the history of mankind", is incomprehensible other than your wish to portray me as over the top and using this tragic terrorist attack to do so.

You are the king of rewording people's thoughts in an underhanded manner. How many times on babble have you taken what people have said out of context and twisted it?

Yes, okay, I was being sarcastic when I used the phrase "ever committed in the history of mankind". But you know, Mishei, you come on babble and insinuate that people are antisemites when they refer to the Holocaust in any way that you think might reflect badly on Israel, you take pains to tell us that nothing can be compared to the Holocaust ever, and it's the most vile thing to ever have happened.

And then, in the Turkish Synagogue thread, you claim that this event is antisemitism at its most vile. Then to back that statement up when asked whether this event is comparable to the Holocaust in terms of vile nature, you claim that any targeting of Jews for murder is antisemitism at its most vile.

So what are you saying, that the evil of any murderous event is comparable to the Holocaust only as long as Jews are involved?

See, I really DO think that this kind of murder is the most vile thing possible. But I think that whether the victims are Jews getting bombed while attending Synagogue in Turkey, or Palestinians getting killed by IOF bombs in the occupied territories. I think this synagogue bombing is as vile as apartheid; I think it's as vile as the Holocaust. The scale is much, much smaller. But the murder of people due to hatred is the same no matter where you are and no matter who you are.

It is you who engages in semantic arguments, Mishei. This event is the most vile kind of antisemitism, but it's not the most vile antisemetic event. Hello - it's all vile and it's all evil. And that's what I was hoping you would acknowledge. Because if you acknowledge that this event is vileness of the same KIND as the Holocaust if not of the same SCALE, then perhaps you might understand why, when people see Palestinians caged into ghettoes and killed and racialized by racist laws, and targeted by Sharon and his IOF, that people might perhaps see some parallels in KIND if not in SCALE. No, not everything is parallel. The Holocaust was systematic in a horrifying way that the occupation doesn't even approach.

But the time to ring the warning bells, if we're really serious about "never again" is when you start seeing warning signs, not after it's gotten to the same level of horror.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 15 November 2003 03:40 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But the time to ring the warning bells, if we're really serious about "never again" is when you start seeing warning signs, not after it's gotten to the same level of horror.

Word.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 15 November 2003 03:48 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Comparisions of Israeli policy to nazi policy is sick.

Why? What good is history if we cannot see it reflected in the present, learn and act upon it, never mind who the characters are?


I don't know who is being sick here, but blinding oneself to obvious similarities is certainly symptomatic of something.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mick
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posted 15 November 2003 04:37 PM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
The road to fascism doesn't begin with death camps, it ends with them.

[ 15 November 2003: Message edited by: Mick Black ]


From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 15 November 2003 06:26 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle:

Antisemitism as suggested by renowned historian Robert Wistrich, is the world's "longest hatred". It manifests itself in many ways but the murder of Jews is its most vile manifestation.

The Shoah stands as the epitomy of man's hatred of Jews. Never before in history had a modern state focused its entire energy (even primary to the outcome of WW2)in murdering an entire people simply for being of a particular group.

I will not engage in comparitive tragedies. Yes I relate more to the tragedy of The Jewish people seeing that I am a first generation Canadian whose family was pretty well wiped out in the Holocaust. Perhaps Michelle and others cant feel that pain and believe me I am not asking you to. Perhaps it is my personal pain that drives me to work closely with the Rwandan community whose survivors get strength from Jewish survivors snd their children. Perhaps it is my experience which drives me to engage in Muslim/Jewish/Christian dialogue (which I have been volunteering in for almost 20 years now)whatever, I need no lectures from you Michelle as to my sensitivity of others tragedy. I undersdtand it all too well.

This week I am going to visit my family in Israel. I will be away for 5 days and intend on staying with friends in Ramallah at least one of those nights. I will post from Israel if I get an opportunity. But please do not tell me how you think I feel.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 15 November 2003 07:38 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, China is a Communist country. The actions of Mao and his successors have been legitimately compared to the Stalinist dictatorship that ran the Soviet Union for thirty years. The parallels just aren't there for China and Nazi Germany.

More fundamentally, Mishei, the cartoon points up a phenomenon that I have recognized for over 15 years now: The oppressed imprinting the gestalt of the oppressor.

I saw the danger signs over 15 years ago, but when I tried to talk about it on a BBS, I just got shouted down as someone who "didn't understand the subject".

The mirror image is still imperfect as of yet, Mishei. Yet what will happen when the fog lifts and the mirror image is indistinguishable from reality?

I hope that it is not too late for the Israelis to realize that their government is actively working to harm a people who will soon know no bounds of frustration, anger, and hate.

[ 15 November 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 15 November 2003 11:16 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I will be away for 5 days and intend on staying with friends in Ramallah at least one of those nights. I will post from Israel if I get an opportunity.

Ramallah is not in Israel.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 16 November 2003 01:23 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, but he did say he was only gonna be in Ramallah one night. No law says he can't be on a computer in Israel proper some other night.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 16 November 2003 01:40 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There would be if he were Palestinian! (Whoops, sorry.)

Seriously though. Mishei, I hope your trip goes well. Be careful.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 16 November 2003 10:34 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The road to fascism doesn't begin with death camps, it ends with them.



Exactly!

And they have already begun the herding into ghettos.

Denying it is sick.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 16 November 2003 11:52 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A "comparative Tragedy?
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mick
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posted 16 November 2003 12:27 PM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
quote:

500 YEARS OF INDIGENOUS RESISTANCE - reprinted from Oh-Toh-Kin, Vol. 1 No. 1, Winter/Spring 1992

That was no "Discovery" -- it was an American Indian Holocaust!

Until recently, commonly accepted population levels of the indigenous peoples on the eve of 1492 were around 10-15 million. This number continues to be accepted by individuals and groups who see 1492 as a "discovery" in which only a few million Indians died -- and then mostly from diseases. More recent demographic studies place the Indigenous population at between 70 to 100 million peoples, with some 10 million in North America, 30 million in Mesoamerica, and around 50 to 70 million in South America.

Today, in spite of 500 years of a genocidal colonization, there is an estimated 40 million Indigenous peoples in the Americas. In Guatemala, the Mayan peoples make up 60.3 percent of the population, and in Bolivia Indians comprise over 70 percent of the total population. Despite this, these Indigenous peoples lack any control over their own lands and comprise the most exploited and oppressed layers of the population; characteristics that are found also in other Indigenous populations in the settler states of the Americas (and throughout the world).



From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 16 November 2003 03:27 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
A "comparative Tragedy?

From the article:

quote:
But who remembers Soviet mass murderers Dzerzhinsky, Kaganovitch, Yagoda, Yezhov and Beria? Were it not for writer Alexander Solzhenitsyn, we might never know of Soviet death camps like Magadan, Kolyma and Vorkuta. Movie after movie appears about Nazi evil, while the evil of the Soviet era vanishes from view or dissolves into nostalgia.

I actually find the first sentence a bit insulting, as I know each of those names quite well, having read numerous tomes on Soviet history and reading books by Robert Conquest, Walter Laqueur and Seweryn Bialer on the mass murders committed in Stalin's name.

Furthermore it has been well-documented that the Soviets targetted almost anyone who was thought to be "counter-revolutionary", and killed them either via forced labor, shootings, or in the case of the Ukraine, by inducing mass famine by confiscating food and refusing to leave the seed crops for the next year.

Overlaying all this are the numerous deaths from Stalin's manic industrialization program where human life meant little and grandiose projects meant a lot.

These deaths are only "forgotten" because nobody publicizes them every day, inserting them into the national consciousness.

I think the difficulty lies in the fact that there was a World War 2. Had there been no WW2, it would have been an open-and-shut case of condemnation, regardless of the fact that Stalin was smarter than Hitler and chose to pick on indigenous populations behind the veil of national sovereignty (rather ironic, given that I defend national sovereingty, but I emphasize that any regime systematically violating civil rights and murdering its own people is clearly abusing this doctrine and should be stopped from continuing it).

But because World War 2 did happen, 20 million Soviets died while the Western countries wasted their time bogging down in Africa or Italy. They bore the brunt of the fury of the German forces, and in turn gave no quarter as they beat back the Nazi forces meter by meter.

I think many people in the West have chosen to simply put the whole matter out of mind in order to avoid having to disentangle the combination of the world's greatest mass murder and the world's most hard-won sacrifice in the same country.

It never would have been this way had there neen no Stalin.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 16 November 2003 06:45 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree and disagree with Margolis on this one. While the specific details of the Stalinist genocides are only recently coming to light (The Black Book of Communism is an interesting read), there has been a rhetorical device connecting the Holocaust to the (however limited) knowledge of these events in place for decades.

It has long been fashionable, even a truism, that both the Nazi and Stalinist regimes were 'totalitarian' and such regimes are always involved in mass murder. This sociological/political catch-all phrase (totalitarian) was coined by everyone's favorite Hannah Arendt. I would argue, along with Zizek that this formulation is a stopgap concept that prevents us from thinking about these regimes in their entirety and in some way even relieve us of the duty to think about them.

In the case of Stalinism, this rhetorical device has actually prevented the 'popular mind' from being interested in the details of what happened, fully satisfied that we know it was Evil, like the Holocaust, and thus little more needs to be said. Meanwhile there is a massive effort to sacralise and memorialise the Holocaust (heck, we may soon have a Holocaust Day in Canada...) and to ensure that each story of victimhood from that tragedy is elucidated down to the most mundane detail. On the other hand, the Stalinist murders are just part of the overall horror that we reserve for 'totalitarianism' with no concomintant institutions dedicated to it's memorialisation.

[ 16 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mick
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posted 17 November 2003 01:09 AM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Einstein and Socialism

Why Socialism?
by Albert Einstein

This essay was originally published in the first issue of Monthly Review (May 1949).

Is it advisable for one who is not an expert on economic and social issues to express views on the subject of socialism? I believe for a number of reasons that it is.



From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 17 November 2003 01:48 AM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An interesting read. Timeless in the sense that it is abstracted from all that was happening in the world in 1949. I can't really see anything in there that history has proven untrue.
From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 November 2003 02:34 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I remarked that only a supra-national organization would offer protection from that danger. Thereupon my visitor, very calmly and coolly, said to me: "Why are you so deeply opposed to the disappearance of the human race?"

Why are we so interested in Israel?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 17 November 2003 06:27 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I guess Margolis has a point in that article, although I don't like his insinuation that it's some kind of left-wing conspiracy to protect Stalin's image or something. I don't know too many people whose hero is Stalin. In fact, I know no one.

And I've never heard anyone deny the gulags or the murders. On the other hand, a lot of the details in his article were news to me - he's right that the Holocaust gets a lot more "play" than Stalin's murderous regime, despite the numbers and a similar "systematic" approach to the murders.

Maybe he DOES find resistance among "the left" to talking about Stalin when he frames it the way he does - as if today's leftists are Stalinists who somehow support this kind of atrocity.

[ 17 November 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 17 November 2003 08:05 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Maybe he DOES find resistance among "the left" to talking about Stalin when he frames it the way he does - as if today's leftists are Stalinists who somehow support this kind of atrocity.

And interestingly, you will never find Margilis discussing the same resistance on the right when we bring up their grandpappy, fascism.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 17 November 2003 08:47 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, I know. Exactly. However, he does have a point when he says that the details of the worst examples of fascism have been aired thoroughly, while people aren't so familiar with the details of what happened under Stalin. Well, at least I wasn't. The names of his henchmen aren't household names the way Hitler's were.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 17 November 2003 09:40 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not only do we know less about the henchmen, but the victims as well!

My point in posting his article was not to compare left wing to right wing atrocities, but instead as a way to ask why there should or shouldn't be any comparisons made to the Holocaust.

And by "compare", I don't mean in a negative way, or as a way to attempt to say that "the Holocaust wasn't that bad . . . here's an example of something just as bad or worst" . . . but as a way to say yes the Holocaust was a bad thing, but it was not the only bad thing, and rather than using it as a way to focus all our attentions on one group, we need to "trivialize" it (for lack of a better word) so that everyone knows that this type of atrocity still happens, and is not some kind of disassociated (is that a word?) event, like the extinction of the dinosaurs, that is interesting only in terms of the event itself. with no real application to current events.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 November 2003 11:06 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe the reasons behind the lack of discussion of Stalinist crimes are similar to the reasons why the horrific mass murders in Cambodia and East Timor (where one in three East Timorese was killed by the Indonesians) are seldon discussed in The West.

These atrocities did not happen to "white" people.

The Soviet crimes were committed, in the Western imagination, against Tatars and other members of Asiatic hordes, Ukrainians included. I suspect there remains a residue of fear of the the Hun, the Mongol, the Turk and Saracen in the Western collective memory, so we don't get concerned when we hear of them dying in great numbers.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 17 November 2003 12:31 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My dear Babble freinds, I am posting this from Israel. Arrived safely on Sunday.

Much news here about the statements from the former Shin Beit leaders...Israelis in cafes and on the streets are pointing to their comments as a means by which to support the need to deal with the occupation in a way that Israelis can feel their democracy is being safeguarded. Israelis I speak to are supportive of the Shin Beit leaders and radio talk shows are filled with the need to get out of the territories. Interestingly there is a feeling of optimism that the yardsticks may move soon.


I will post more as I travel around. BTW Jerusalem is basking in sun about 22 Celcius. Gotta love it.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 17 November 2003 05:03 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can't really babble from here - not enough Internet access to follow the discussions. I'm in Amsterdam, after Paris. Firstly, Mishei, keep safe.

Secondly, a lot of people on the left have been utterly forthright in our opposition to the crimes of Stalin and Stalinism.

Stalin was every bit as much a villain as Hitler. However, it is a slightly different question. We could take Stalin to task for betraying socialism, but nobody could ever say that Hitler was not fascist enough ...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 November 2003 05:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
lagatta, posting in haste m'self; but you must read this thread:

Feminists at the Forum

ps: If you're dropping in to Pere Lachaise, say hello to Diderot for moi.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 17 November 2003 05:16 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Can't really babble from here - not enough Internet access to follow the discussions. I'm in Amsterdam, after Paris. Firstly, Mishei, keep safe.

Secondly, a lot of people on the left have been utterly forthright in our opposition to the crimes of Stalin and Stalinism.

Stalin was every bit as much a villain as Hitler. However, it is a slightly different question. We could take Stalin to task for betraying socialism, but nobody could ever say that Hitler was not fascist enough ...


Exactly, and to tie a Babble threads together - there seems to be a tendency among the most staunch ideologues of the liberal-democratic capitalist system to aver that socialism is come and gone based on the failures of the USSR, China, Yugoslavia, etc. However, this argument is often based on the supposed 'naturalness' of liberal-democracy and capitalism; the notion that the current hegemonic system developed by evolution and progress, changing and adapting to new challenges. The fallacy of the argument that 'socialism is forever dead' is that somehow socialism will not change, adapt, and find new ways of expressing it's core elements of universalism and egalitarianism in new and interesting ways; through small and large struggles, and even, perhaps, through new state models.

Interestingly, a similar fallacy is used to embolden the notion that our technocratic capitalism has nothing in common with Fascism. Fascism is always conceived of as a 'been there, done that', rather than as a technology of power, the particular conceptual constellations of which emerge in various forms even in 'multiparty', 'pluralistic' states. Moreover, there seems to be no ability (and I admit this is entirely new idea to me, and not my own) in liberal-democratic capitalist society, to conceive of how our ideological and political sytem has borrowed technologies of domination from, and/or shares ideological affinities with, Stalinism as well....

Anyway, how's that for thread drift?

[ 17 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 19 November 2003 04:45 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Travelled today to the WB. Yes it was difficult and yes the life of the Palestinian is fraught with heartache. This said, at least my Palestinian contacts insist that first the Palestinians must deal with their own leadership and do more to build confidence from within.

In Israel the peace movement continues to make headway. Many Iasraelis believe in working towards a liveable accomodation. However none that I have met amongst the peace crowd will forsake the viability of THE JEWISH STATE OF ISRAEL...NONE. This is there beginning and ending point.

Morale is high today in Israel. I continue my journey. Today I head up north to visit friends in Kiryat Shmona. Will post soon.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 19 November 2003 05:02 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I had no idea you were there, Mishei.

Have a safe journey.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 19 November 2003 05:10 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And I've never heard anyone deny the gulags or the murders. On the other hand, a lot of the details in his article were news to me -

Michelle, I think if we go back to the 30's, 40's and 50's, it's fair to say that Communists in North America were in denial about Stalin's totalitarian regime.

In fairness, after all that had transpired in North America to suppress Bolshivism, I don't blame them from not believing the likes of Malcolm Muggeridge.

But it wasn't Muggeridge-- in spite of the claims of right wing journalists today-- who first blew the whistle in the west. It was (Emma?) Goldman, a feminist and socialist who first came back with tales of Stalinist totalitarianism.

And, she was ostracized by those on the left for her efforts.

Maybe I should Google this, I'm going by memory from incidental readings.

Just a sec...........


Back.

The old memory isn't as bad as I thought. The only thing I missed, according to this was that Emma was an anarchist, not socialist.

Emma Goldman

quote:
Her time in Russia led her to reassess her earlier belief that the end justifies the means. Goldman accepted that violence as a necessary evil in the process of social transformation. However, her experience in Russia forced a distinction. She wrote I know that in the past every great political and social change, necessitated violence....Yet it is one thing to employ violence in combat as a means of defence. It is quiet another thing to make a principle of terrorism, to institutionalise it to assign it the most vital place in the social struggle. Such terrorism begets counter-revolution and in turn itself becomes counter-revolutionary.

These views were unpopular among radicals as most still wanted to believe that the Russian Revolution was a success. When Goldman moved to Britain in 1921 she was virtually alone on the left in condemning the Bolsheviks and her lectures were poorly attended.


It was probably Goldman who inspired Rebecca West's sometimes unreasoned disdain for Communists, and her support for Mcarthyism.

[ 19 November 2003: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 19 November 2003 10:24 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An interesting day today to say the least. I journeyed with an Israeli friend who is an Officer with the IDF along the security fence.

There is about 2% of the fence that is indeed a wall but I can tell you that the rest is a fence. I have seen it with my own eyes.

Now the fence is a security fence which means that it has sensors, barbed wire on top with monitors. It is definitely meant to keep terrorists OUT. Shlomo tells me that since the fence went up in Gaza there has been no suicide bombings in Israel...NONE. And the areas of the WB where the fence is established there have also been no suicide attacks within Israel. The young soldiers I spoke with would prefer peace to the fence and many feel disturbed with the check point security but are committed to protecting Israeli citizens first and foremost.

Shlomo who is a Colonel with the IDF (his father was my childhood friend)is of the belief that if they can establish security for Israelis the prospects for peace increase greatly. I pray he is right.

I was in Kiryat Shmona today as well which is on the Lebanese border. Things are tense there but livable. I find it amazing that as I sit in my cousin's backyard I can actually see Lebanon and the Hizbollah unit literally a stones throw away.

Back on Friday


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 19 November 2003 11:10 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I find this debate over whether it's a fence or a concrete wall kind of weird. It really doesn't matter what it is; it has the same effect of perpetuating the problem. How? Because there is no better way to perpetuate the problem than to implement the notion that Israeli security trumps Palestinian rights. A wall...a fence...it's still the borders of a prison. The wall doesn't even follow the Green Line.

This Shlomo person believes that Israeli security will bring about peace, but this is just a restatement of the notion that the Palestinians can be "defeated" and "peace" brought about that way. The Iron Wall theory.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 November 2003 11:12 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is about 2% of the fence that is indeed a wall but I can tell you that the rest is a fence. I have seen it with my own eyes.


Oh well, then. We all feel so much better. Just razor-wire, you say.

And then there's that teensy-tiny matter of where the wall/fence goes. Of how it is turning the West Bank into a set of isolated cantons, stealing Palentinian agricultural land and in some cases villages, forcing ordinary people to pass through military checkpoints every day of their not-so-ordinary lives.

But you've seen it, Mishei, so that changes everything, doesn't it?

Yes, Mishei; it does. It makes you responsible, for the rest of your life, if you ever utter any apologetics for that evil wall/fence again. God remembers, Mishei.

[ 19 November 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 19 November 2003 11:42 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I find it amazing that as I sit in my cousin's backyard I can actually see Lebanon and the Hizbollah unit literally a stones throw away.

What heroism. Mish actually saw Lebanese people and survived to tell about it.

quote:
However none that I have met amongst the peace crowd will forsake the viability of THE JEWISH STATE OF ISRAEL...NONE. This is there [sic] beginning and ending point.

No surprise, as this attitude is consistent with Zionist history. Theirs is the only voice. Palestinians do not exist.

Wouldn't members of a "peace crowd" be open to negotiation? If not, how do they ever expect peace? Sharon's vision is the peace of the grave, what does this "peace crowd" offer? Will they tear down the wall? Will they evict every settler? Will they give Palestinians back their water resources and their dignity?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 19 November 2003 12:08 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
C'mon, al-Q. You know about the Lebanese.

Paul Anka is one of them. He writes awful songs, which he then sings in Las Vegas.

Then he comes back to Ottawa and sings risibly revised versions of them at superannuated Liberal politicians.

Seriously, Beirut is one of the places I really wish I could see before I die. Lebanon, Morocco, Tunisia, such lovely places once -- and in future, I'm sure. But for now, I know, forbidden to people who look like me, and understandably so, but that makes me sad.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mick
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2753

posted 19 November 2003 12:34 PM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
Here's one of my favorite pamphlets on the bolshevik dictatorship.

quote:

TROTSKY PROTESTS TOO MUCH By Emma Goldman

Leon Trotsky will have it that criticism of his part in the Kronstadt tragedy is only to aid and abet his mortal enemy, Stalin. It does not occur to him that one might detest the savage in the Kremlin and his cruel regime and yet not exonerate Leon Trotsky from the crime against the sailors of Kronstadt.

In point of truth I see no marked difference between the two protagonists of the benevolent system of the dictatorship except that Leon Trotsky is no longer in power to enforce its blessings, and Josef Stalin is. No, I hold no brief for the present ruler of Russia. I must, however, point out that Stalin did not come down as a gift from heaven to the hapless Russian people. He is merely continuing the Bolshevik traditions, even if in a more relentless manner.



From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 19 November 2003 04:51 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

However none that I have met amongst the peace crowd will forsake the viability of THE JEWISH STATE OF ISRAEL...NONE. This is there beginning and ending point.

Ahh, but the question remains as yet unanswered: "What do you mean, precisely, by Jewish State? I think you'll find that few here are opposed to a certain kind of Jewish State, but that certain other options are objectionable.

So, back to basic things: What, Mishei, do you mean by 'Jewish State'?

I implore you to answer this question - you may find that your 'us and them' binary relation over this issue in regard to other Babblers is a chimera. Your answer might just cut the Gordian Knot we end up in over and over.

However, I wonder if you really know what you mean when you say it. I say this because you seem to avoid the problem of defining it each time you are challenged to do so.

Again: What do you mean by 'Jewish State'?

[ 19 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 19 November 2003 04:57 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"The young soldiers I spoke with would prefer peace to the fence and many feel disturbed with the check point security but are committed to protecting Israeli citizens first and foremost."

“Better Palestinian mothers should cry and not Jewish mothers”.

Israeli Director of Military Intelligence, Major General Aharon Ze’evi a few weeks ago.

The argument from 'security' is a canard. It misses the causes of the insecurity - the occupation. The prison fence is a way to have the occupation and 'security' too, rather than simply ending the occupation and thus getting rid of the need for that wretched 'fence'.

A question, Mishei, are less Palestinians dying because of the fence?

[ 19 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 19 November 2003 06:46 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The argument from 'security' is a canard. It misses the causes of the insecurity - the occupation.

Thank you, Courage, for pinpointing the root of the conflict. And to think that I have been buying the Israeli line that, the causes of the occupation are the martyrs! Of course, the Israelis -- sly ones, dem -- refer to the martyrs as "suicide bombers." The nerve!

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 19 November 2003 06:54 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:

Thank you, Courage, for pinpointing the root of the conflict. And to think that I have been buying the Israeli line that, the causes of the occupation are the martyrs! Of course, the Israelis -- sly ones, dem -- refer to the martyrs as "suicide bombers." The nerve!

Post hoc, ergo prompter hoc, huh?

Which came first?

Amazing, too, that the 'cure' for suicide bombings has left more dead than suicide bombings...

[ 19 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 19 November 2003 07:08 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Post hoc, ergo prompter hoc, huh?

Which came first?

Amazing, too, that the 'cure' for suicide bombings has left more dead than suicide bombings...

[ 19 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]



Yes isn't it amazing that one could justify killing a larger number of innocent people to protect a smaller number of innocent people!!??


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 19 November 2003 07:11 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Post hoc, ergo prompter hoc, huh?

Say, man, are you studying to be a teleprompter operator? Good prospects.

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 19 November 2003 09:31 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, just a sloppy typist.
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 20 November 2003 10:00 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah Skdadl being your unctious self. Razor wire?...yes i suppose, you see these very bad terrorists were walking into places like jerusalem and Ramot, looking for Cafes and buses where women, children, men gather and were murdering them. Those damn Israelis wanted to stop them from doing that...silly them for wanting to protect themselves....so they built a fence and ,YES made it very very difficult for these exremists to come into Israel.

It seems anything Israel does to protect its people is frowned upon by some here. Searches for terrorists is a no-no; targeting terrorists is a big no-no and now putting up a fence to stop terrorists is also a no-no...sooo I guess we should just let Israelis be murdered by these extremists...ya sure why not???

Sorry Skdadl if the fence saves lives (and yes Courage that includees Palestinian and certainly Muslim lives...many Muslims have also been killed as a result of suicide murderers) I am all for it. If you can live with these murders let it be on your head. G-D will remember Skdadl.

And as for Al's little ditty:

quote:
What heroism. Mish actually saw Lebanese people and survived to tell about it.

Please give me a break. This is just plain ignorant. You know full well what I meant but are so intent on trying to ridicule me that you will try anything. This is the kind of crap that most people laugh at you for...or for those of like mind join with you in their ongoing attempts to minmize my participation.

[ 20 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 20 November 2003 10:10 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, do you know the meaning of the word unctuous? I suggest you look it up (check the spelling while you're at it). Otherwise, please quote the specific phrase(s) or line(s) of mine that you consider unctuous.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 20 November 2003 11:08 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
so they built a fence and ,YES made it very very difficult for these exremists to come into Israel.

And we are to presume that there are no "extremists" amongst the thousands of Palestinians who will now be trapped on the Israeli side of the Wall? Not one Hamas member? Not a single supporter of Islamic Jihad? Suuuure.

Or did the Wall just completely -- TOTALLY -- "miss" the Green Line by mistake? Are all those bulldozer operators just driving drunk?

Give it up, Mish. It's a land grab. It's Sharon fulfilling his lifelong dream of driving a final stake through the heart of any possible Palestinian state. "Security" has dick-all to do with it.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 20 November 2003 11:45 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It seems anything Israel does to protect its people is frowned upon by some here. Searches for terrorists is a no-no; targeting terrorists is a big no-no and now putting up a fence to stop terrorists is also a no-no...sooo I guess we should just let Israelis be murdered by these extremists...ya sure why not???

You're backsliding again.

Answer the questions posed. I'll remind you:

Question 1: How many Palestinian lives has the fence, ditch, patrol route and guard tower barrier saved?

Question 2: On what basis have the 200,000+ Palestinians living on the 'Israel' side of the barrier been deemed not to pose any threat to Israel?

Question 3: How do you define the term 'Jewish State'?

We're waiting. Have a good time sticking your head in the sand.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 20 November 2003 11:50 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Mishei, do you know the meaning of the word unctuous? I suggest you look it up (check the spelling while you're at it). Otherwise, please quote the specific phrase(s) or line(s) of mine that you consider unctuous. [/qb
Firstly it has been a tradition here that we do not comment on spelling errors...ahh but you Skdadl who might admonish others for doing so will yourself chastize me for a spelling error. You are a hypocrate!

As for unctuous. In case you do not know what it means yourself here it is:

quote:
Characterized by affected, exaggerated, or insincere earnestness: “the unctuous, complacent court composer who is consumed with envy and self-loathing” (Rhoda Koenig).
Having the quality or characteristics of oil or ointment; slippery.
Containing or composed of oil or fat.
Abundant in organic materials; soft and rich: unctuous soil.

And yes in my mind when you respond to me you are filled with this earnestness about how right you are...cnat stand it really but then again your comment on my spelling is a fine example.

[ 20 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 20 November 2003 11:59 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
About spelling flames: yes, they are lame, but given that David Bad-Diction started the game up above, and given that you were being pretentious by misusing a word that you also misspelled, I figured fair's fair.

Without a concrete example of any unctuous statement of mine, I conclude that you are fogging again, Mishei. Unctuousness also implies insincerity, as the root in ointment or greasiness suggests. The earnestness referred to in your quoted definition is supposed to be an excessive, perceptibly feigned earnestness.

You think I'm insincere, Mishei?

M'self, I reserve the word mainly for people who do PR for a living, or who are climbing ladders by flattering their bosses.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 20 November 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
About spelling flames: yes, they are lame, but given that David Bad-Diction started the game up above, and given that you were being pretentious by misusing a word that you also misspelled, I figured fair's fair.

Without a concrete example of any unctuous statement of mine, I conclude that you are fogging again, Mishei. Unctuousness also implies insincerity, as the root in ointment or greasiness suggests. The earnestness referred to in your quoted definition is supposed to be an excessive, perceptibly feigned earnestness.

You think I'm insincere, Mishei?

M'self, I reserve the word mainly for people who do PR for a living, or who are climbing ladders by flattering their bosses.


I have no ladders to climb and the very fact you would accuse me of this says to me that you feel comfortable with personal attacks and innuendo. So you think i am too casual with language?? I really dont care. Let's try to stick to the issue and not become the grammar police or innuendo happy. I prefer to discuss such personal accusations in PMs. Feel free to PM me at your convenience but I urge you to keep it off the thread that way no one can accuse you or I (or is it "me" oh dear grammar sheriff?) of thread drift.

As for Israel I will be leaving shortly for the airport..back in Canada on Friday. Post more then.

Shalom/Salam


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 20 November 2003 12:28 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei: YOU called ME a name, not the other way around. YOU called ME unctuous -- that's how this started.

I applied no label to you, Mishei. Quote me any line where I did that.

Qui s'excuse, s'accuse, Mishei. Or as mother used to say, If the shoe fits, ...


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 November 2003 01:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good grief. Well anyhow, this is the 123rd (and last) post to this thread.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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