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Author Topic: Israel Is The Greatest Threat To Peace
evenflow
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posted 03 November 2003 07:00 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
Israel Is The Greatest Threat To Peace

quote:
Results of a new poll commissioned by the European Commission show that Europeans in 15 countries believe Israel to be the greatest threat to world peace.

The full results of the survey will be released tomorrow. It is known that 7,500 people - 500 in each of the 15 EU member states - were presented with a list of 15 countries and asked if these countries present a threat to world peace. Israel was rated "yes" by the highest number of respondents.



From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 November 2003 07:10 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"These shocking results, that Israel is the greatest threat to world peace, bigger than North Korea, Iran and Afghanistan, defy logic and are a racist flight of fancy that only show that antisemitism is deeply embedded within European society, more now than in any other period since the end of World War II," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, the Center's dean and founder.

I find it hard to believe that anyone could come up with a clearer expression of the attitude that criticism (or in this case - "fear of...") Israel is antisemitism.

Excuse me, but, bollocks to that attitude.

The poll mentions the US as well - although I'm not aware of any ensuing hysteria from the Yanks.

quote:
He said that the obvious conclusion is that the European Union can play no role in any future Middle East peace process.

China, anyone?

[ 03 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 03 November 2003 07:51 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Off the top of my head...

1) Nuclear Armed and militarily active
2) The (land grabbing apartheid) wall
3) The occupation
4) When there's a will, there's a way
5) Nobody is buying the "terrorism" excuse
6) Closely affiliated with number 2 threat
7) Illigal settlements
8) A war ciminal as Primeminister

I guess the Europeans haven't lost their marbles like the illinformed Americans have. There is no tone of anti-semitism in this study, because it is the State.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 November 2003 09:58 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And just now I come across this...

quote:
Particularly ominous is a subject that has come to occupy the attention of Israeli military planners and strategic study centres over the past few years. The "future battlefield", as it has been described, extends over an area in which Israel perceives its vital interests lie. Ariel Sharon, as minister of foreign affairs, delineated this area as extending from Pakistan in the east to Morocco in the west and from the Islamic republics of Central Asia in the north to South Africa and the southern entrance to the Red Sea in the south.

Al-Ahram Weekly

So what happens when the US and Israeli spheres of influence ultimately clash?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 November 2003 10:17 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's a pretty huge vital interest for a small country.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 04 November 2003 12:37 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I find it hard to believe that anyone could come up with a clearer expression of the attitude that criticism (or in this case - "fear of...") Israel is antisemitism.

Why don't you ask Le Pen supporters in France what they think about the Jews?

Not all of those people who thought Israel is a security threat are necesarily antisemites. But I am pretty sure all of the antisemites gave what you would call "legitimate criticisms of the state of Israel".

So while this poll result is not a direct result of racism, its probably propped up by racist groups.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 04 November 2003 12:45 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
9. protected ally of the biggest, richest, meanest, most ruthless, most aggressive conqueror of the century, the US of A.

They're not going to clash' they're going to mesh. That's what worries everybody with a brain.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 November 2003 01:48 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why don't you ask Le Pen supporters in France what they think about the Jews?

Huh?

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Ask KKK members what they think of Blacks. Will their response mean that every non-African American in the USA is anti-Black?

More than just Front Nationale supporters were polled. "500 people in each of the 15 EU states" were asked the questions.

No "racist groups" "propped up" anything. Individuals were asked their opinion.

Instead of blaming Europeans for worrying about what might happen because of what's going on in the Middle East, maybe all you apologists for Israel ought to look for humane, equitable solutions to the plight of Palestinians--instead of regurgitating the same tired excuses to justify the torment of an oppressed people.

The ensuing poll might have different results.

Ed....Speaking of polls...

quote:
One of the best-kept secrets in Israel is that most Israelis are fed up with the occupation, and just want to get out.

According to June's findings by Mina Zemach, Israel's foremost pollster, 63% of Israelis are in favor of "unilateral withdrawal." In fact, 69% call for the evacuation of "all" or "most of" the settlements.


Israelinsider

[ 04 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 04 November 2003 02:08 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whenever Israel is criticised along comes the charge of antisemitism. So tiring. Meanwhile people like Gir support a racist state suggesting he is a racist against Palestinians. Have the guts to come clean Gir. Why do you hate Palestinians? What have they done to deserve ghetthoization in your eyes? Are there any other peoples you hate?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 04 November 2003 11:16 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
That's a pretty huge vital interest for a small country.
You would think, wouldn't you. Is scary just thinking about it.

[ 04 November 2003: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 04 November 2003 11:20 AM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
In the Middle East forum please.

Keep the pro-Israeli and the pro-Arab trolling and tit-for-tat screaming out of other Babble threads, please.

Many of us take extra special care not to get dragged into this muck and we boycott the Babble Mideast thread, so please keep it where it belongs.

Thank you.

[ 04 November 2003: Message edited by: Mimichekele2 ]


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 04 November 2003 11:37 AM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
The fact that Israel and its supporters are the only ones claiming racial prejudice when referring to the EU poll would be curious, if of course, this tactic wasn't so over used by them.
From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 November 2003 11:56 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 04 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 04 November 2003 11:58 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
YOU READ:
In the Middle East forum please.


Keep the pro-Israeli and the pro-Arab trolling and tit-for-tat screaming out of other Babble threads, please.

Many of us take extra special care not to get dragged into this muck and we boycott the Babble Mideast thread, so please keep it where it belongs.

Thank you.

[ 04 November 2003: Message edited by: Mimichekele2 ]


WHAT WAS REALLY SAID:

"Blah, blah, blah, whine, blah, blah, whine, sniff, sniff, blah, sniff"

Shut Up, it's news you loser. I really don't think you speak for everyone. Besides it's European news.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 November 2003 12:08 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But this is what the fundamentals of Zionism is. Is scary just thinking about it.

What, World Domination? You might want to explain that one, B-P.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 04 November 2003 12:17 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
What was said was what was written.

Most Mideast threads end up in yelling matches. A consensus was developed that people who chose to participate in that kind of activity could do so at their leisure in a special forum devoted to that issue so the rest of us could be spared flame wars.

So in the Middle east forum, please. There's enough yelling and provoking and trolling and tit-for-tat insulting going on here at Babble. When it escapes from the Middle East fora and starts to affect other areas, that kind of violates an agreement most people had come to accept.

[ 04 November 2003: Message edited by: Mimichekele2 ]


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 04 November 2003 12:21 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
Notice how quickly my request to keep Middle East discussions where people had agreed to keep them was met with this typical response:

quote:
Shut Up, it's news you loser

That eloquently illustrates the point, I would say.


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 November 2003 12:22 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 04 November 2003 12:26 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
What, World Domination? You might want to explain that one, B-P.
You misunderstood me. Not world domination, just a greater control over the region for their vital interest. Be it a Greater Israel. I also think I misunderstood the article as I only skimmed through it.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 04 November 2003 12:29 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mimichekele2:
Notice how quickly my request to keep Middle East discussions where people had agreed to keep them was met with this typical response:

That eloquently illustrates the point, I would say.


It still doesn't change the fact that it is news. Stop trying to derail this thread.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 November 2003 12:46 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
You misunderstood me. Not world domination, just a greater control over the region for their vital interest. Be it a Greater Israel. I also think I misunderstood the article as I only skimmed through it.


Skim again. I don't think even supporters of Greater Israel see it as spreading beyond the Levant.

This documents says that all of Africa, essentially, and the land from the Mediterranean to Pakistan is of vital strategic interest to Israel.

Manifest Destiny.

[ 04 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 November 2003 02:59 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, Mimichekele2 is right. This probably DOES belong in the Middle East forum. I realize the poll took place in Europe, but let's face it, the thread is about whether Israel threatens world peace. Not only that, but your "loser" comment was unwarranted and unnecessary, BP.

But you know, Mimi, you need to take responsibility for your own tone. You write posts that are condescending and insulting in tone. If you can't figure out why people who frequently write in the Middle East forum might be insulted by having their writing referred to as "muck" and "pro-Arab and pro-Israeli trolling", then maybe you need to take an interpersonal skills course.

You didn't ask politely - you were rude and high-handed.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 04 November 2003 03:31 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
"pro-Arab and pro-Israeli trolling"

My apologies Michelle. While were on this topic, why is one side referred to as an ethnic (Arab) affiliation and the other side referred as a national (Israeli) affiliation?

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 November 2003 03:41 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Give it a rest, willya?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 November 2003 03:45 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread clearly does not belong here. As for mimi's comments, Come on now Michelle, I have seen much much worse behaviour from many more babblers than what Mimi presents.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 November 2003 04:29 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't say there hasn't been. But it's Mimi who is acting like a wounded martyr in this and other threads where he wrote clearly condescending and provoking posts and then wondered why people responded with hostility.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 04 November 2003 06:12 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I didn't say there hasn't been. But it's Mimi who is acting like a wounded martyr in this and other threads where he wrote clearly condescending and provoking posts and then wondered why people responded with hostility.

Well said.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 04 November 2003 07:17 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle. As a moderator, I would think it would be your role to uphold Babble policies, not get personally involved in the insults.

You will have noticed that I commented on the "muck" of Middle East threads having so frequently turned into flame wars and tit-for-tat insults being hurled, to no benefit to readers' understanding of the issues involved. As moderator, you are in a position to know many other people have made the exact same complaint: that the Middle East threads have turned into a zone of insults. Requesting that people refrain from such awful behaviour in other fora and act as adults able to respect each other's opinions and differences, you call condescending and provoking.

You will have noticed that I never targeted any individuals for personal insults or diatribes. I, on the other hand, have been targeted by name.

It seems, unfortunately, that hurling personal insults is what the game has become for many people on Babble. Including moderators, it would seem, unfortunately.

Might this be one reason why the Left isn't even at 15% in Canada? Politics is in large part how you treat people.

But then what do I know? I'm just a condescending moron who should shut up when told to do so by Big Socialist Brother. You almost had me converted. I even voted NDP. But you've lost my vote. Won't be fooled again.

[ 04 November 2003: Message edited by: Mimichekele2 ]


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 04 November 2003 07:29 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mimi, I don't think anyone was accusing you of being the only person who "loses it " on Mideast threads. There was a whole volley of ad hominem comments and insults. I try my darndest to avoid them for that reason.

But I could "lose it" over this, which has nothing to do with the Middle East or Israel/Palestine:
---------------------------------
"Might this be one reason why the Left isn't even at 15% in Canada? Politics is in large part how you treat people.

But then what do I know? I'm just a condescending moron who should shut up when told to do so by Big Socialist Brother. You almost had me converted. I even voted NDP. But you've lost my vote. Won't be fooled again."
--------------------------------

I've heard that kind of stuff before in your posts against the UFP and our attempts to build a left alternative in Québec. I didn't expect you or anyone else to agree with it or think it was a serious alternative, but you often commented in a hurt, rueful manner about seeing through us nasty leftists.

We've all had bad experiences doing politics, but the alternative of accepting the status quo is so much worse, at least for the vast majority of the world's population.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 04 November 2003 08:22 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

But then what do I know? I'm just a condescending moron who should shut up when told to do so by Big Socialist Brother. You almost had me converted. I even voted NDP. But you've lost my vote. Won't be fooled again.

Oh, boo-hoo....

[ 04 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 November 2003 08:43 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Might this be one reason why the Left isn't even at 15% in Canada? Politics is in large part how you treat people.

That's right mimiselfandi2. The left is in a lowly position because of its lack of tolerance for pompous twits.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 04 November 2003 08:59 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The left is in a lowly position because of its lack of tolerance for pompous twits.

On the contrary. The left seems to have a bottomless well of patience for pompous twits. That's the problem!


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 04 November 2003 09:11 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It would certainly explain why we're tolerant of you.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ice Foot
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posted 04 November 2003 09:42 PM      Profile for Ice Foot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Waterloo | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 04 November 2003 09:52 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Aw, you're making me all warm and fuzzy
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 04 November 2003 10:05 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While I certainly don't support the Israeli occupation, etc., I have an hard time having sympathy for the Palestinians with their Infatada and suicide bombers. I guess I'm just a sap, but I like the way Ghandi got the british to withdraw from India. Why can't the Palestinians use non-violent means to protest?
From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 November 2003 01:09 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why is this thread still here??? Should I be starting any Middle East news threads here from now on as well?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 November 2003 01:18 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by worker_drone:

On the contrary. The left seems to have a bottomless well of patience for pompous twits. That's the problem!



Touché.

quote:
Why is this thread still here???

Because it's a poll by Europeans?

quote:
Should I be starting any Middle East news threads here from now on as well?

Well, you could go to the Freedominion site and start something. Take notes and let us know how it went.

Is the location of this topic really such a concern?

Oh yeah, you like to deflect attention away from the issues....

Carry on.

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 05 November 2003 01:23 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, Mimichekele, I didn't see any paperwork designating you the Grand Admiral of the Universal Space Fleet.

Until then, I don't see where you have the right to go around acting like you own the message board.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 November 2003 09:17 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Why is this thread still here??? Should I be starting any Middle East news threads here from now on as well?

Have you e-mailed Audra and asked her to move it?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 05 November 2003 03:49 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cougyr:
While I certainly don't support the Israeli occupation, etc., I have an hard time having sympathy for the Palestinians with their Infatada and suicide bombers. I guess I'm just a sap, but I like the way Ghandi got the british to withdraw from India. Why can't the Palestinians use non-violent means to protest?

Such methods don't always work. In India, they had the advantage that the British were a tiny minority far from their base, who deeply needed stuff in India to keep working. Israel's troops are like ten miles from their base of supply, and they don't care if the occupied territories are totally shut down--if anything, many of the things that Indians did as resistance are precisely the kinds of things Israel is doing to Palestinians as collective punishment. Further, the indication we get is that when they try it, Israelis shoot them. Against a sufficiently ruthless opponent, collective nonviolent resistance just gets you collectively killed.

I suppose the difference here is between a *colonial* oppressor and a *colonizing* oppressor. A colonial oppressor needs the natives to be there to do work. A colonizing oppressor would prefer the natives not be there any more. Nonviolent resistance probably wouldn't have worked especially well for first nations in the US either.

Now, attacks on civilians remain a vile practise, whether by Palestinians or the IDF. But there's nothing wrong, certainly under international law, with violent resistance against invading troops or, for that matter, settlers (who are after all violating the Geneva conventions by their mere presence). Suicide bombing, incidentally, isn't an evil tactic by virtue of the person killing himself, only when it's used to kill civilians. If suicide bombing is used against the IDF it's a perfectly reasonable tactic. The tendency to refer to all violent resistance, even against armed forces still after decades illegally invading foreign soil, as "terrorism" is just spin. Killing IDF on Palestinian soil is just resistance to invasion and there's nothing wrong with it. If someone invaded Canada I really doubt you'd be going around saying it was wrong to shoot the invading soldiers.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 05 November 2003 04:34 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If someone invaded Canada I really doubt you'd be going around saying it was wrong to shoot the invading soldiers.

Probably not. However, I'm a great believer in sabatage. One can cause invaders no end of frustration by making things not work. And it's surprisingly easy. The best sabatage is that which can be performed quickly and easily and causes a maximum of disruption. Any defence force that doesn't have a team of sneaky sabateurs is negligent.

Violence tends to cause more violence which causes more violence which . . . . . As a tactic, violence is not very productive. Palestine is a perfect example. The Palestinians have been using violence for a very long time and where has it got them? (Ditto for the Israelis)


From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 05 November 2003 05:34 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cougyr:
While I certainly don't support the Israeli occupation, etc., I have an hard time having sympathy for the Palestinians with their Infatada and suicide bombers. I guess I'm just a sap, but I like the way Ghandi got the british to withdraw from India. Why can't the Palestinians use non-violent means to protest?

Such examples as Ghandi's revolution are admittedly rare. This is why they are hauled out as examples. Some would have it that this is because there are simply a lack of really good, dedicated pacifists willing to see that tactic through to the end.

Personally, I think it is because there are few political situations where such a tactic is necessarily the best choice. Moreover, given that few of us are living in a hovel in the West Bank under the conditions of the occupation, our platitudes about abstract pacifism are a decadent luxury.

In the case of the Palestinians, I can see where a unified pacifist front might take the momentum out of the force used by Israel. It would put the honus back on Israel to justify their brutality while depriving them of the 'terrorism' excuse. However, IDF terrorism is not confined to political/social restrictions, but in part is concerned with the destruction of homes and dwellings, at which point a pacifist protest is futile and morally stupid. If someone comes at you with a bulldozer, you have a choice, and I don't begrudge those who choose to fight back their instincts, or rights to do so. I would do the same.

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 November 2003 05:36 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Have you e-mailed Audra and asked her to move it?



Her email is always full. Why is this thread still here?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 November 2003 05:39 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who cares? Are you some kind of rampant anal-retentive type-A?
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 November 2003 06:04 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why are you asking me, Mishei?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 05 November 2003 06:08 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Likely because he'd like to deflect attention from this discussion by derailing the discussion and having it banished to the backwaters of the Middle East Fora....
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 November 2003 07:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Why are you asking me, Mishei?
I am not asking you. I answered your specific question and then wondered out loud as I do again...why is this thread still here?

[QUOTE] Likely because he'd like to deflect attention from this discussion by derailing the discussion and having it banished to the backwaters of the Middle East Fora.... [QUOTE]

Which from my understanding of threads is exactly where it belongs. BTW are you suggesting that somehow the Middle East thread is not as worthy as others? I know lets drop it altogether and go back to having all of your anti-israel diatribes here on the News thread.

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 05 November 2003 09:31 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cougyr:
Violence tends to cause more violence which causes more violence which . . . . . As a tactic, violence is not very productive.

Violence does tend to breed violence, which is a serious drawback. And, in the service of most objectives, it is unethical. And it often fails. But how effective it is depends on the situation, the objective, and what you're comparing it to.

Take, for instance, the objective of taking over somebody else's land. If there's a lot of those somebody elses, violence is rarely effective in the long term. But, if you're ruthless enough, it sometimes is. And generally, only violence has a chance of success. Ergo, if the Israelis want to have all of Palestine for Israel, violence is the only method with a chance of working. That's why they're using it.

On the other hand, if they want peace and security, violence is a very bad tactic. Which is one reason I've generally come to the conclusion that in the case of Israeli governments, desire for peace and security has been largely a smokescreen meant to obscure real objectives which their tactics actually address.

When it comes to throwing invaders out of your land, historically the most frequently successful method has definitely been violence. Most other methods have not worked very often. Now, often violence doesn't work very well, either, and it often takes a long time to work, and produces a great deal of misery in the process. But compared to the alternatives it is quite productive.
And one can note that during the time of the Oslo accords, the Palestinians largely ceased to be violent and instead pursued negotiations. During that time, the Israelis accelerated the creation of settlements and Israeli-only roads--"facts on the ground", continued bulldozing Palestinian orchards and farms, continued to kill, injure, imprison without trial, and brutalize Palestinians, and squeezed the Palestinians economically. So certainly, switching from violence to negotiation was not a productive tactic.
It is possible that mass peaceful resistance tactics would have an effect. It is likely, however, that Sharon et al would declare anyone who tried to organize any such thing a terrorist and assassinate them, as they tend to do to anyone who starts supporting a unilateral Palestinian cease-fire.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 November 2003 10:07 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Instead of asking why this thread is still here, (who really cares?) our local apologist might ask why so many Europeans (even the antiantisemites) consider Israel a threat to world peace.

As for non-violent resistance; it seems like a good idea to me.

Rachel Corrie thought the same.

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 06 November 2003 01:56 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
As for non-violent resistance; it seems like a good idea to me.

Rachel Corrie thought the same.


True. And I respect her for it.
However, insensitive though I worry this comment is, I do notice that Rachel Corrie is dead, and the IDF, and the Israeli and US people, don't seem to have changed their approaches or opinions.
Time may tell whether the sacrifices of peaceful martyrs like Rachel Corrie will ultimately lead to a revulsion in Israeli and/or US public opinion against violence in Palestine. Such things have been known to happen, and I hope so.
But it wasn't peaceful martyrs who kicked the Americans out of Vietnam.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 06 November 2003 09:42 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shouldn't this be in the Middle East section. Why is it still here?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 06 November 2003 09:47 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Have you e-mailed Audra at audra@rabble.ca yet and expressed your deep concern over a thread being in the wrong forum? Her e-mail can't be "full", just her private mail, and you've been here long enough to know her e-mail address - especially since I know I personally have given it to you at least twice already in the past.

In any case, if it didn't work the first 14 times you posted the same message within the thread, then why are continuing to do so? It's annoying. I'm sure she'll move it when it comes to her attention - and until then, the discussion can continue here. Give it a rest already!

[ 06 November 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 06 November 2003 10:18 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, my private messages get full. "Wondering out loud" is not the best way to change things, I've found.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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