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Author Topic: An abiding faith in peace
Mishei
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posted 31 October 2003 12:35 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We should look at the glass as half full and continue, as are these Isarelis and Palestinians, to work towards peace:

Israelis and Palestinains taking peace into their own hands


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 31 October 2003 12:47 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, the last paragraph says it all, doesn't it:

quote:
Now it's up to our leaders.

Yup. So much for that.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 31 October 2003 02:11 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yossi Beilin speaks for Yossi Beilin. That's it!!! You and I can sit and figure out all the worlds problems but that solves NOTHING!

Look for Yossi Beilin to run for government now that he has thrown a wrench into government negotiations.

Too many cooks spoil the broth!


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 31 October 2003 02:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All I'm saying is that it is time to think a bit outside the box. We must do all we can to maintain a viable and secure Jewish state of Israel.

At the same time the Palestinians deserve a state of their own where they can begin to shape their own destiny. That Arafat chose violence over peace is does not mean we should squander chances for peace. I do not agree with everthing Beillin proposes but at least he is trying to engage the issue. Remember even Sharon has acknowledged a need for a Palestinian state and to end the occupation as he himself put it.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 31 October 2003 02:59 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think you're being quite reasonable here, Mishei. While one may or may not see the Geneva negotiations as fully just to one side or the other - though I think they've gone further toward a balanced solution than most - certainly this kind of give-and-take is at the core of true negotiation. Given the high human cost of the conflict, a peaceful rote to addressing these issues is a consummation greatly to be wished.
From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 31 October 2003 03:05 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Army Chief warns Sharon
quote:
Israel's army chief has exposed deep divisions between the military and Ariel Sharon by branding the government's hardline treatment of Palestinian civilians counter-productive and saying that the policy intensifies hatred and strengthens the "terror organisations".
Lieutenant-General Moshe Ya'alon also told Israeli journalists in an off-the-record briefing that the army was opposed to the route of the "security fence" through the West Bank. The government also contributed to the fall of the former Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, by offering only "stingy" support for his attempts to end the conflict, he said.

Gen Ya'alon had apparently hoped his anonymous criticisms would strengthen the army's voice, which has been subordinated to the views of the intelligence services in shaping policy.

But the comments were so devastating that he was swiftly revealed as the source.

The statements - which a close associate characterised to the Israeli press as warning that the country was "on the verge of a catastrophe" - will also reinforce a growing perception among the public that Mr Sharon is unable to deliver the peace with security he promised when he came to office nearly three years ago.



From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 31 October 2003 03:05 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
All I'm saying is that it is time to think a bit outside the box.

Or rather, inside your box.

quote:
That Arafat chose violence over peace is does not mean we should squander chances for peace. I do not agree with everthing Beillin proposes but at least he is trying to engage the issue. Remember even Sharon has acknowledged a need for a Palestinian state and to end the occupation as he himself put it.

And then took it back.

Words are cheap, Mishei. Arafat has claimed to want peace, but look what he does. Sharon has also chosen violence over peace, but hey, he's Israeli, so his misdeeds don't count, right?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 31 October 2003 03:23 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:

And then took it back.

Words are cheap, Mishei. Arafat has claimed to want peace, but look what he does. Sharon has also chosen violence over peace, but hey, he's Israeli, so his misdeeds don't count, right?


Smith, I am trying to support Beillin's initiative here but you wear blinders when it comes to anything I post. April follies thanks for your understanding. It is people like you who can think outside the box and see that while we both may have different visions we surely want no more violence and understand the need to negotiate to achieve peace.

Smith if you can put your Mishei bias aside for a brief moment you might possibly learn something from April.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 31 October 2003 03:46 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I note that you did not deal with anything in the substance of my post. Possibly because you can't. I do not support the Jewish State of Israel as you exhort us to; I cannot support the policies it adopts to maintain its Jewish majority.

I've learned plenty from April, thank you. But despite your patronizing pedantry, I've yet to learn anything of value from you.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 31 October 2003 04:01 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since Mishei was nice enough to explain the use of Kosher salt (although I still don't know what properties the salt has that make it characteristically "Kosher") in another thread, I thought I'd venture to ask him (or anyone, for that matter) for further assistance.

I've been listening to a CD, "King of the Klezmer Clarinet," by Naftule Brandwein today. He plays the same quote in a number of tunes on the CD. He repeats the quote a couple of times on "Turkishe Talle Vey Uve" in case anyone has access to the CD.

Ziggy Elman plays the same quote where he and his trumpet tear into the frailach-inspired passage of "And the Angels Sing."

Is the tune quoted part of a Yiddish folksong...or what?

And as for Mishei's comment about "Arafat choosing violence over peace".... In the purported spirit of this thread, I'll just walk away....

[ 31 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 31 October 2003 04:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
I note that you did not deal with anything in the substance of my post. Possibly because you can't. I do not support the Jewish State of Israel as you exhort us to; I cannot support the policies it adopts to maintain its Jewish majority.


I never asked you to. I only asked that you think outside the box and support this Palestinain/Israeli initiative. But you are so focussed on me that you just cannot. So sad.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 31 October 2003 04:18 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I agree the proposal is a good one in spirit and intent. The problem is it depends upon the goodwill of people to act upon it.

You betray your lack of goodwill when you all at once attack Arafat who has -- despite all legitimate criticism -- sat at the peace table, while defending a man such as Sharon -- who despite much apologizing and referencing to one sentence uttered one time and quickly reneged -- refused every opportunity to sit at the peace table and has used every opportunity to ensure the failure of any peace process, including vehmently denouncing the one you now raise here.

You see, Mishei, with such a sentence, you immediately draw the line upon which sides will form and we can see it happening already.

A careful person who truly was attempting to "think outside the box" would avoid the drawing of such lines because getting people on the same side is the first step to seeing beyond the proverbial box.

So, maybe, before you being such threads, you can think about what you are saying and how those words will be heard by those you want to reach.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 31 October 2003 05:12 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Mishei, I agree the proposal is a good one in spirit and intent. The problem is it depends upon the goodwill of people to act upon it.

You betray your lack of goodwill when you all at once attack Arafat who has -- despite all legitimate criticism -- sat at the peace table, while defending a man such as Sharon -- who despite much apologizing and referencing to one sentence uttered one time and quickly reneged -- refused every opportunity to sit at the peace table and has used every opportunity to ensure the failure of any peace process, including vehmently denouncing the one you now raise here.

You see, Mishei, with such a sentence, you immediately draw the line upon which sides will form and we can see it happening already.

A careful person who truly was attempting to "think outside the box" would avoid the drawing of such lines because getting people on the same side is the first step to seeing beyond the proverbial box.

So, maybe, before you being such threads, you can think about what you are saying and how those words will be heard by those you want to reach.


Wingnut, no one says we have to agree on everything. I pointed out Sharon's statement (as fleeting as it was) to demonstrate that even from the right in Israel there are at least signs of a willingness to work towards peace. Are they working in a way you or I would like? No, is Beillin, Sari Nussibah and others?..maybe...doesnt matter...what matters is the passion to engage the concept.

I happen to mistrust Arafat and consider him a hinderance to the process. Sharon isnt a great help either so thinking outside the box and gathering a sense of the israeli mood is what will motivate Sharon and the right. Perhaps it may even motivate those on the Israeli left to once again work more diligently towards peace.

Your naysaying is unhelpful. The fact that we disagree on certain fundamentals should not preclude that we both (I think) believe in a two-state solution born out of dignity for both Israelis and Palestinians. In the end no matter how you and I feel about each other it will be this common dignity that will move Israel and the PA towards peace.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 31 October 2003 05:46 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In the end no matter how you and I feel about each other it will be this common dignity that will move Israel and the PA towards peace.

With an emphasis on the word "common" as in Palestine held by both Jews and Arabs in common, perhaps a single state, with equal democratic rights for all, rather than a Zionist state in perpetual war, should be seriously considered.

quote:
In his 1896 manifesto The Jewish State, Zionism's founding document, the Austrian journalist Theodor Herzl predicted that such a country would be at peace with its neighbors and would require no more than a small professional army. In fact, Zionist settlers have clashed repeatedly with the Arabs from nearly the moment they began arriving in significant numbers in the early twentieth century, a Hundred Years' War that grows more dangerous by the month. Herzl envisioned a normal state no different from France or Germany. Yet with its peculiar ethno-religious policies elevating one group above all others, Israel is increasingly abnormal at a time when almost all other political democracies have been putting such distinctions behind them. Herzl envisioned a state that would draw Jews like a magnet, yet more than half a century after Israel's birth, most Jews continue to vote with their feet to remain in the Diaspora, and an increasing number of Israelis prefer to live abroad. Israel was supposed to serve as a safe haven, yet it is in fact one of the more dangerous places on earth in which to be Jewish.

The Nation

*Is nobody else into Klezmer music?*


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 31 October 2003 06:05 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft:
Army Chief warns Sharon

Hmmmm...strange comments from Dr. Chemotherapy himself...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
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posted 31 October 2003 09:05 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am moved by this peace overture and commend all here who support peace.

No, as a jew I cannot support a single state solution. We have a sliver of land called Israel. I support with my whole heart a state for the Palestinain people but not at the cost of a Jewish state. No it cannot be. Please I urge you all here to understand the connection we Jews have to the state of Israel. I am from the Hashomer Hatzair a European pre-war leftist Zionist movement. The left alwways understood Israel and supported its ideals. Yes now with Sharon we have moved far from that ideal but there are many in Israel still who hold to these values. Admire them for they, like you, are prepared to work for peace. People like Yossi Beilin exemplify the old spirit of hasomer. That is why I embrace him.


From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 31 October 2003 09:15 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I support with my whole heart a state for the Palestinain people but not at the cost of a Jewish state.

And it doesn't bother you at all that in order to found this Jewish state, the people who already had been living there had to be expelled? I know for me, the circumstances under which Canada was created bother me quite a bit, and I feel strongly that great reparation should be made to the first nations whose blood and misery paved the path for the prosperity and security I live in today. I'd be surprised if you didn't feel the same about Israel.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 31 October 2003 10:41 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I feel strongly that great reparation should be made to the first nations whose blood and misery paved the path for the prosperity and security I live in today

If this whole problem could be solved through reparations, then this whole issue would be over with. I'm sure that between Israel, the US and various UN agencies enough money could be scraped up to give every single living breathing Palestinian $100,000 if they would "take the money and run" and let bygones be bygones. We have never been given the impression that any amount of money would solve the problem.

The equivalent situation for Canada would be if First Nations started suicide bombings in shopping malls and cafes in Toronto and Vancouver and said that it would never end until every Canadians of non-aboriginal descent went back to England or France or wherever they came from so that Canada could be 100% Native controlled. and that no amount of money would make any difference to them.

Of course if Canadian WASPs go back to the UK they make face a similar movement by Celts demanding that they let the Celtic original inhabitants of the British Isles get their country back, which they in turn took from the Britons 3,000 years ago! Then we can demand that the Anglo-Saxons go back to the lowlands of northern Germany and the Netherlands! etc...etc...etc...

There has to be a better solutrion to these issues than "I was here first".


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 31 October 2003 11:17 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Yes, make it a country that is suitable and fair to all its people. Let the children play and interact with each other, without 'in the box' interference and within a generation or two you will have a community without the historical hangups.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 01 November 2003 12:39 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Poor choice of words. By reparations I didn't actually mean money. I meant acknowledgement of the lingering effects of the European invasion and a mutual effort to resolve them.

Of course, unlike Canada, Israel is only halfway through its appropriation, so that the indigenous people still outnumber the invaders. If Canada had gotten all human-rightsy at the same point, it would have been a very different country. I like to think, a much better one. If Israel can make the step that we didn't, then we can see. Otherwise, the killing can continue and the state that results, whatever it may be, will always be scarred with the blood, pain and terror that formed it.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 01 November 2003 01:32 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There has to be a better solutrion to these issues than "I was here first".

What a hypocrite you are. Isn't that the zionist argument for the misery inflicted upon the native population?

You see Mishei, the problem? You and I can agree, I think. Zisel, whether we agree or not speaks fromn the heart but then along comes stockholm to paint he ugly stereotypical portrait and carve the line in stone.

How sad.

But more than that, stockholm demonstrates the hatred amd instrangience flows both ways. So that is the challenge mishei to thinking outside the box. How do we sideline those, both Palestinian and Zionist, who can envisoon no solution but total surrender of the other?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 01 November 2003 08:41 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

So that is the challenge mishei to thinking outside the box. How do we sideline those, both Palestinian and Zionist, who can envisoon no solution but total surrender of the other?

I pray that as time marches on those Palestinians like Sari Nussibah and those Zionists like Yossi Beillin will be more engaged by the majority on both sides. While their visions may not be the entire answer...their desire for peace is most certainly the entire answer.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 01 November 2003 11:53 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
their desire for peace is most certainly the entire answer.

Agreed.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 01 November 2003 12:03 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Stockholm:

quote:
There has to be a better solutrion to these issues than "I was here first".

Wingnut:

quote:
What a hypocrite you are. Isn't that the zionist argument for the misery inflicted upon the native population?

???????


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 November 2003 12:28 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It seems there is now talk of peace. Let's try to see the cup as half full....unless there are those here who really are not interested in peace but in fact want to see an end to a Jewish state.

Toronto Star


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WingNut
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posted 03 November 2003 12:51 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hope you don't mind if I play devil's advocate mishei.

A two state solution envisions both an Israeli state and and a Palestinian state in th eWest Bank and Gaza.

But politically, Israeli governments depend on support of the settler and extremist religious groups.

So, even if Palestinians and Israelis agree on a two state solution 1) Will Israel ever allow the settlements to fall under the control of Palestinian sovereignty and 2) will the settlers ever accept Palestinian rule over their enclaves and 3) if the answer to 1 is no then isn't all talk about two states nonsense or if the answer to 1 is yes but the answer to 2 is no, then isn't a complete collapse of any accord inevitable?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
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posted 03 November 2003 01:09 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

If this whole problem could be solved through reparations, then this whole issue would be over with. I'm sure that between Israel, the US and various UN agencies enough money could be scraped up to give every single living breathing Palestinian $100,000 if they would "take the money and run" and let bygones be bygones. We have never been given the impression that any amount of money would solve the problem.

The equivalent situation for Canada would be if First Nations started suicide bombings in shopping malls and cafes in Toronto and Vancouver and said that it would never end until every Canadians of non-aboriginal descent went back to England or France or wherever they came from so that Canada could be 100% Native controlled. and that no amount of money would make any difference to them.

Of course if Canadian WASPs go back to the UK they make face a similar movement by Celts demanding that they let the Celtic original inhabitants of the British Isles get their country back, which they in turn took from the Britons 3,000 years ago! Then we can demand that the Anglo-Saxons go back to the lowlands of northern Germany and the Netherlands! etc...etc...etc...

There has to be a better solutrion to these issues than "I was here first".


Absolutely correct. We need to move forward, not backwards.

Some of you are acting as if it is only Israel that has corrupt politicians using this war for their personal gain. I am afraid that is a two-way street. And until both sides admit to wrongdoing, the peace process is going nowhere.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 November 2003 01:11 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, the way I hear it, the Israeli government managed to dig this hole rather nicely for itself and the settlers.

You see, property values in the settlements are worth about bupkiss. Why? Suicide bomb attacks and the like.

The irony of all this is that what got this mess started in the first place was that Israel offered substantial financial and tax incentives for people to move there in the first place. Now that settlers have gotten their houses and their jobs and all that, it turns out what little they did pay for what they've got won't be recovered back if they sell out.

So the Israeli government's tar baby is this: In order to get everybody out of the settlements, they'll have to pay again - which is basically to cover the relocation expenses of everyone who doesn't want to accept Palestinian jurisdiction, at the very least.

The Israeli government's cost-benefit analysis is this, I believe: Why throw away money on getting the settlers back when we paid for them to go out in the first place? Better to keep something than have to give up everything, because people would otherwise see the colossal waste of money that we have engaged in and be quite exercised about it.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory
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posted 22 May 2004 01:05 PM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Long-divided neighbours unite in battle to stop Sharon's wall

quote:
By MARK MacKINNON
Friday, May 21, 2004 - Page A1

MEVASERET ZION, ISRAEL -- When Yossi Bartel was a child, the Palestinians who lived down the hill were like monsters in the closet. He heard stories about them, feared them, but rarely saw them.

Growing up in the Jerusalem suburb of Mevaseret, he would often wander into the lush valley nearby. But his mother forbade him to go into the Palestinian villages of Beit Surik and Beit Iksa, which lay barely two kilometres distant, on the other side of the orchards. He learned to be scared of his neighbours.

Then, six months ago, came news of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's "security fence" -- a nine-metre-high barrier that when complete would seal off Mevaseret from the West Bank, including Beit Surik and Beit Iksa. Mr. Bartel, now 18, said he instinctively felt that putting a wall between the two peoples was wrong. Soon afterward, he made his first journey to Beit Surik.

His trip has led to a unique Palestinian-Israeli effort to fight the course of the barrier. Residents of both communities have joined in a joint court challenge that has temporarily halted construction of the wall, and in the process they have found more in common than they ever thought possible.

Earnest and open-minded, Mr. Bartel found in the Palestinian villages not people to be feared, but people who came to work in Mevaseret every day, who had built homes and a school there.

"I had always been afraid to go to Beit Surik by myself," he said. "When I was a child, there was a metaphorical wall between us and the Palestinians. Six months ago, I saw my hometown from another angle."

Mr. Bartel was appalled to learn that the barrier as planned would not only separate the communities but leave farmers in the two Palestinian towns cut off from the lands they cultivate. He resolved to do what he could to stop the barrier from going ahead.

He started by trying to drum up support in Mevaseret, a difficult task given that many in the leafy middle-class suburb of 20,000 shared his mother's mistrust of their neighbours across the Green Line, the pre-1967 border between Israel and the West Bank. Yet many in the town, which has never been the target of a suicide bombing, began to wonder why such peaceful neighbours should be punished for problems elsewhere. The area became a focal point for protests against the wall.

In Beit Iksa, dozens of Israeli peace activists joined weekly marches against the wall's course. Several have been injured when police have resorted to tear gas, rubber bullets, and on one occasion live ammunition to break them up.




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