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Author Topic: Rabbis attacked by armed settlers
majorvictory
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Babbler # 2878

posted 28 October 2003 11:59 PM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A group of rabbis from a peace group in Israel have been attacked by armed settlers.

quote:
Tuesday 28 October 2003, 10:59 Makka Time, 7:59 GMT

Rabbis from the peace group Rabbis for Human Rights (RHR) were attacked by five armed settlers. Some of the men had their faces covered when they threatened to attack the rabbis with clubs.

The attack took place near the settler out post of Mitzpeh Yutzahr, which is connected to one of the most hard-line settlements of Yitzahr, near Nablus.

Rabbi Arik Ascherman, executive director of RHR, was beaten by a settler as he went to show solidarity with Palestinian villagers who were preparing to harvest their olives in a few weeks.

Rabbi Ascherman told Aljazeera.net that he would not be deterred from assisting Palestinians in protecting their lives and land and that he felt anger and embarrassment towards the settlers.

''These people believe that their Torah tells them to vandalise land and abuse Palestinian people. I will continue to come here day after day to tell these settlers that they are wrong and that the Torah doesn't teach us Jews to behave in this way.''

The Rabbi described how he, along with a delegation of Rabbis, was confronted by armed men.

During the confrontation, one of the settlers pulled off the rabbi's kipa (head cover) telling him that he had no right to wear it.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 October 2003 01:25 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmmm, self-hating Rabbis now....
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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Babbler # 3493

posted 29 October 2003 01:39 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
A most poignant insight Al. Sadly, there are those who would actually believe that.
From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 29 October 2003 04:21 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hopefully their message of peace and "Love For Thy Neighbour" spreads. How much do you want to bet that none of them are Likudniks.
From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 29 October 2003 04:33 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Luckily they weren't palestinians advocating peace with Israel we've already seen how those "lunatic peace and Jew loving beasts" are accepted by their fellow countrymen... they have their throats slit and their carcasses hung out on display as a warning to any others that would even think about peace with Israel!

Palestinians don't have dentists because no one is allowed to open their mouths up there!!! Except of course when they are urged into the streets to condemn Israel.

IS there even one recognized "peace movement" group in palestine???? Or for that matter in the whole of the middle east outside of Israel???

Why are there so many peace groups in Israel fighting the Israeli government? Democracy!!!!!!


Racist state??? How many Jews, or Christians for that matter, are in the ruling or opposition governments of any Arab nation???? I know that there are more elected Arab officials in the Israeli parliament than there are in any of the Arab states.


Again, I'm just saying what I hear. If I'm wrong... tell me why.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 29 October 2003 04:57 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Palestinian Peace Coalition

quote:
"The Palestinian Peace Coalition (PPC) is a non-governmental Palestinian grassroots institution that aims at promoting a strong partnership for a just and lasting Palestinian-Israeli peace through joint activism on grassroots levels, including amongst youth, women, professionals, politicians, trade associates, and other civil society institutions. PPC aims at making a serious contribution to a lasting peace, which will lead to the creation of an independent Palestinian State according to the 1967 borders, and the recognition of a neighboring Israeli State that lives within its own safe and secure borders.

Two-minute web search. I timed it. Used "palestine peace".

If you can't be bothered to even look for the facts before making sweeping statements, you're not going to last long in these discussions.

Edited to provide some other helpful links.

Focus on Palestine: "Palestinian group looking to find a balanced approach to peace in the Middle East."

Arab Organization for Human Rights

quote:
Aims: Call for respect of human rights and fundamental freedoms of all citizens and residents of the Arab world; defend any individual whose human rights are subjected to violations which are contrary to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights ; endeavour, regardless of political considerations, to obtain release of detained or imprisoned persons, and seak relief and assistance for persons whose freedom is restricted in any way or who are subject to coercion of any kind because of their beliefs and political convictions, or for reasons of race, sex, colour or language; protest in cases where a fair trial is not guaranteed; provide legal assistance where necessary and possible; call for improvements in conditions of prisoners of conscience; work for amnesty of persons sentenced for political reasons.

[ 29 October 2003: Message edited by: April Follies ]


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 29 October 2003 04:59 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EMGEE:
Luckily they weren't palestinians advocating peace with Israel we've already seen how those "lunatic peace and Jew loving beasts" are accepted by their fellow countrymen... they have their throats slit and their carcasses hung out on display as a warning to any others that would even think about peace with Israel!

IS there even one recognized "peace movement" group in palestine???? Or for that matter in the whole of the middle east outside of Israel???

Why are there so many peace groups in Israel fighting the Israeli government? Democracy!!!!!!

Again, I'm just saying what I hear. If I'm wrong... tell me why.


Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. Palestinians do have peace movements especially prior to the intifada. They are not very popular, because they are seen as accepters of the occupation and brutality. Let's not forget who is occupying who. I don't think Democracy has anything to do with the peace movements, because there is no democracy in Israel. The Lebanese Government has a Christian President. The Iraqi Baath Party had alot of Christians in the party. The Syrian Government has a significant Christian presence. I know, I know, the U.S. will have us beleive that they're all Jew Christion hating Arab bigots. Hmmmm, that's why Church leaders in Israel where calling for a war against the Israeli government many times. Obviously not your news network.

Occupied and the occupier


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 29 October 2003 05:07 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't think Democracy has anything to do with the peace movements, because there is no democracy in Israel.

No democracy in Israel????? Are we living in different worlds here???

You're obviously not an Arab christian because you would not be talking about christian rights in Arab countries if you were. I know that my many christian Arab friends here in Canada speak so hatefully against the regimes that they escaped from. But they are not the whole population... just the few I know.

Christian Arabs are only tolerated as second class citizenry in Muslim nations. That seems to be the fact passed on to me by many of my friends.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 29 October 2003 05:16 PM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
EMGEE, you asked for someone to point out to you why you were wrong, and you were. Care to respond?

BTW, I think your computer has some sticky keys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because you yell, doesn't make you any less wrong.


From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 29 October 2003 05:17 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EMGEE:

No democracy in Israel????? Are we living in different worlds here???

You're obviously not an Arab christian because you would not be talking about christian rights in Arab countries if you were. I know that my many christian Arab friends here in Canada speak so hatefully against the regimes that they escaped from. But they are not the whole population... just the few I know.

Christian Arabs are only tolerated as second class citizenry in Muslim nations. That seems to be the fact passed on to me by many of my friends.


That uis a very anti-islamic point of view. The Christian populations in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, U.A.E. and Jordan are all equal citizens with the same rights. The Christian populations enjoy respect and plenty of wealth. Actually if your a Christian in the middle East, chances are your well off. I see you've already burned your bridges.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 October 2003 06:14 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Luckily they weren't palestinians advocating peace with Israel we've already seen how those "lunatic peace and Jew loving beasts" are accepted by their fellow countrymen...

All your scurrilous comments aside, the fact remains that, lucky or not, the Rabbis were not attacked by Palestinians, but by Jewish settlers.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 29 October 2003 06:27 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Al, why is it that we're only discussing the rabbis that got tussled by Jewish settlers but not comparing that to the numerous palestinians that have been throat slit and strung up in public like dogs as a sign of what happens to palestinians that even talk about peace with Israel.

Sorry guys, I thought that this site was supposed to be a fair discussion and really, all I wanted to do was to read and to learn but it's hard to sit here and see this whole thing so one sidedly against Israel. I suppose if the situation was reversed I would have been "arguing" against Israeli supporters... sorry.


Also, I'd like to opologize for "yelling". I'm new here and to web sites so please feel free to correct my etiquette. I'll learn.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 29 October 2003 06:33 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EMGEE:
I'm new here and to web sites so please feel free to correct my etiquette. I'll learn.

I've done so once, and you haven't yet learned to capitalize Palestinians.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 29 October 2003 06:35 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know I can be a language dominatrix, but PLEASE remember to capitalise "Palestinians". Babblers have been - quite rightly - taken to task for writing "jews". In English, nouns and adjectives for peoples and religious groups take caps.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 29 October 2003 06:53 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
I know I can be a language dominatrix,

Oh. My. Goodness. The mental image I just got.

You know I love ya, lagatta. Even when I misspell your name.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 29 October 2003 07:01 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I find myself opologizing like crazy. To me, since there is no land called Palestine (now called Jordan) there can be no people called Palestinians. As soon as a peace is reached and a Palestine created, Palestinians could be capitalized. BUT for the sake of trying to blend in, I will henceforth erroneously capitalize Palestinians.
From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 29 October 2003 07:08 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EMGEE:
I find myself opologizing like crazy. To me, since there is no land called Palestine (now called Jordan) there can be no people called Palestinians. As soon as a peace is reached and a Palestine created, Palestinians could be capitalized. BUT for the sake of trying to blend in, I will henceforth erroneously capitalize Palestinians.

Where is Jewland?

[ 29 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 29 October 2003 07:16 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, I thought that Jews called themselves Jews because of their religion. When Israel became a country, those Jews could call themselves Israelis. The people in the "disputed territory" (sorry, I like that term as the most equitable) are either capital C Christians or capital M Muslims. WHEN they get a state called Palestine, they will be capital P Palestinians.

But again, I don't want to get caught up in this nit picking so right or wrong I will capitalize P in Palestinian.

... but a rose by any other name.....


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 29 October 2003 07:20 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I were Jewish, I might have a lot of flippant answers about where Jewland might be - but such jokes could be misinterpreted so I'd rather refrain... I could see Mycroft having some hilarious quips about that one ...

More seriously, where is Creeland, or Inuitland? Many peoples have inhabited territories for centuries or millennia without a European-style State or title to the land. I do hope you don't use lower-case letters for our Aboriginal peoples.

And yes, language-dom. The only problem is finding orthopedic high-heeled boots with stiletto heels. skdadl, would you know if Clark's, Rohdes' or some other purveyor of sensible footwear should be making such a thing?


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 29 October 2003 07:34 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh! So religious monikers don't require a state, you just need to go ahead and call yourself something (no need for a Muslimida or Christiandom [oh, wait...]) and it's off to the races. But in the case of nationhood, you need a state. Interesting. I suppose there really are no Kurds, then (no Kurdistand afterall.) And I suppose there are no Druze in Lebanon or Israel (no Druzitania to speak of). And I suppose all Arabs are really from Saudi Arabia? And I guess there were no Germans before the unification in 1848 - I wonder where they got the idea to unify then? Just an accident, I suppose.
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 October 2003 07:39 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Right ENGEE. Deny someone's existence, then wipe them out. Brilliant.

This semantic argument that denies Palestinians the right to exist because of a 19th-century European definition of nation-state is too hollow to bother with. What do you make of all those Germans, for example, who once lived in the Holy Roman Empire? Were they called Holy Romans?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 29 October 2003 07:47 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do I own a pet poodle or do I own a pet Poodle?

Are the Palestinains of Jordan still Palestinians while living in Jordan or are they Jordanians?

Now I can see the problem... we can't even agree on the capitalization.

And talking about capitals. Why is okay that the Muslims (as is their custom) destroyed the Jewish city of Jerusalem, built their mosque on it AND want legal claim to it even though they admit that Jerusalem was always Jewish?? Shouldn't they disassemble the mosque and let the Jews have their temple back? I'd be willing to say that their (the Jews) sacred temple is way more important than some farmers olive trees (that he should rightfully be compensated for).


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 October 2003 07:50 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are the Palestinains of Jordan still Palestinians while living in Jordan or are they Jordanians?

Ask a Diaspora Jew.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 29 October 2003 08:01 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ask a Diaspora Jew.


I get the feeling that they would say that Jordan is Palestine so no, I won't ask them.

BUT, Al, in regards to Jordan, why didn't Jordan create a Palestinian state between 1948 and 1967 when they had the West Bank? Then again, why did they refuse the West Bank when they were offered it by Israel in the peace treaty... they could have taken it and set up a Palestine and the heck with what the Israelis would say!!!!

I'm missing something here.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 29 October 2003 08:11 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EMGEE:

And talking about capitals. Why is okay that the Muslims (as is their custom) destroyed the Jewish city of Jerusalem, built their mosque on it AND want legal claim to it even though they admit that Jerusalem was always Jewish??


Let's start with history. First of all, the Temple was pulled down by the Romans. Jerusalem had gone from primarily housing Roman Pantheonic houses of worship to Christian ones long before Muslim armies took the city. Second of all, matters of Muslim theology. Islam in no way views Jerusalem as 'Jewish', merely the site of Jewish religious authority.

quote:
Shouldn't they disassemble the mosque and let the Jews have their temple back?

You'll have to call up Julius Caeser among others. Or maybe Berlusconi or the Pope could stand in... I'm not sure about the sovereignty issues there...

quote:
I'd be willing to say that their (the Jews) sacred temple is way more important than some farmers olive trees (that he should rightfully be compensated for).

Why? Because a sky ghost said so?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 29 October 2003 08:17 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EMGEE:

I get the feeling that they would say that Jordan is Palestine so no, I won't ask them.

BUT, Al, in regards to Jordan, why didn't Jordan create a Palestinian state between 1948 and 1967 when they had the West Bank? Then again, why did they refuse the West Bank when they were offered it by Israel in the peace treaty... they could have taken it and set up a Palestine and the heck with what the Israelis would say!!!!

I'm missing something here.


You definitely are missing a few things....marbles mostly.

It matters not a whit what Jordan did or didn't do. However, it is interesting that in this argument you tacitly agree that Jordan ought to have given the Palestinians statehood, and therefore that the Palestinians deserve a state. But wait...

Oh never mind. It's been fun...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 29 October 2003 08:27 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Courage, why do you find the need to be so abusive???

quote:
First of all, the Temple was pulled down by the Romans. Jerusalem had gone from primarily housing Roman Pantheonic houses of worship to Christian ones long before Muslim armies took the city.

"Long before Muslim armies TOOK the city." So you agree that originally the city was Jewish. With the return of the Jews to their homeland, as per the United Nations, why didn't the Muslims return the city to their rightful owners???


And why should the Israelis keep the mosque there... "Because a sky ghost said so?"?????

And why so much "yelling"???


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 29 October 2003 08:52 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EMGEE:
I find myself opologizing like crazy. To me, since there is no land called Palestine (now called Jordan) there can be no people called Palestinians. As soon as a peace is reached and a Palestine created, Palestinians could be capitalized. BUT for the sake of trying to blend in, I will henceforth erroneously capitalize Palestinians.

Don't you people like to haul out the part about where CisJordan (Teehee, chemistry in-joke) gave up the West bank post-1967?

Ergo, your own reasoning falls flat on its face since Jordan said "Not ours anymore!"

Please bring your history textbooks up to date!


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 29 October 2003 08:59 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Funny, I have the honour of knowing a German gentleman of well over 90 who, as a Jew (with caps, though he is an atheist) and a leftist, fled Nazi Germany for Palestine.

Come to think of it, guess I am lucky to have met such cool people...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 29 October 2003 09:46 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The extremist settlers attacking the Rabbis should have been charged. It is utterly dispicable behaviour.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 October 2003 10:01 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for getting back on topic, Mishei...and whaddaya know, we agree on something!

Before we get back to regular thread drift, can anyone explain something I saw recently in the local Co-op?

Windsor Kosher Salt.

I thought "Kosher" had to do with certain dietary restrictions and the way an animal is butchered. How does salt fit in?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 October 2003 10:19 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have been wondering that same thing for ages now! In any case, I have some in my cupboard - it's great for cooking.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
gagme
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posted 29 October 2003 10:25 PM      Profile for gagme        Edit/Delete Post
palestinians have a right to live in palestine. period. all the other stuff about who came first, who built what or destroyed what, etc. etc. is just crap.
From: dontfuckinpatronizeme | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 29 October 2003 10:45 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think kosher salt is not iodized? But I could be (read: am likely) wrong.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 30 October 2003 02:31 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
gagme says:

quote:
palestinians have a right to live in palestine. period. all the other stuff about who came first, who built what or destroyed what, etc. etc. is just crap.


But in the absence of a state called Palestine (see, I capitalized!!!!) where do you want to send those people??? From this site we see that Jordan is what was once 80% of an area owned by the Ottomans and referred to as Palestine. So IF those that live in the area do not like living under Israeli rule... they gotta move to Palestine (Jordan).

You know I once lived in East York but now I live in Toronto. It's not that I moved, I still live in my same house but now we have been absorbed into Greater Toronto. Lots of changes have been made to my constituency and to where I pay my bills. IF I don't like being governed by Toronto city hall I'm free to move where ever I want.

Those people that used to live in Palestine under the Ottoman rulers are still living in their same houses but under an Israeli government and the land that they live on is still the same land but under a different name... Israel.

So again, where's the problem???


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 30 October 2003 02:42 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Those people that used to live in Palestine under the Ottoman rulers are still living in their same houses

Is that so. So, nobody has been forcible removed to allow a Jewish Settler to take that home? No communities have been demolished, by force to make way for new settlements for Jewish families, forcing the previous occupants into refugee camps?

Furthmore EMGEE, it is the height of rudeness to stroll into babble and demand that posters do your homework for you. The entire "middle east forum" is filled with debates that have already taken place on the subjects you are bringing up.

DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

Then come back with some better questions. Many poster from both sides of the issue have toiled greatly in the threads that already exist, they have provided you with enough info to keep you busy for at least a week.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 30 October 2003 02:57 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But they have NOT been absorbed into Israel. They don't have citizenship. They can't use the Jewish-only highways. What the hell are you smoking?

I especially love your recommendation that the Dome of the Rock be torn down. I thought only nuts and extremists advocated that thousand-year-old buildings, known worldwide as jewels of architecture, be torn down. Well, perhaps I was right.

quote:

Sorry guys, I thought that this site was supposed to be a fair discussion and really, all I wanted to do was to read and to learn but it's hard to sit here and see this whole thing so one sidedly against Israel.

As opposed to you, in whose eyes Israel can do no wrong, and Al-Aqsa is just a dirty pagan shrine standing in the way of a nice new synagogue. Right.

You want a fair discussion? Most of your posts are just slavering over the incredible evil of dem rotten Ay-rabs. You don't even research your points; you just report hearsay (from heaven knows whom - this guy?) And YOU want a fair discussion. I'd cry if I weren't laughing so hard.

Also, they're Palestinians. With a capital. Because that's what they want to be called, and because you know damn well there WAS a territory called Palestine under the British mandate, even if that territory no longer exists as a state. If Canada disappeared tomorrow and I moved to Spain, I'd still call myself a Canadian. Deal with it.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 30 October 2003 04:05 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Smith (JOE???) stop being so friggen rude!!!! I am not on either side of this "debate"!!!

IF the US were to take over Canada, you could call yourself an aardvark if you chose BUT the reality would be that you would be an American!

That I asked for actual proof, not just words, where the land is illeagally held by Israel should have been no big deal, especially when so many here seem to have done so much research.

Or is it more studying bullcrap propoganda that you're spilling onto these pages???

I'm just looking for sane answers to insane inuendos from two opposing sides on this site. Sure both opposing sides are going to present opposing "facts" and wether you like it or not, both sides have valid points!

BUT, the fact remains that Israel is the only side that seems to be willing to offer anything! The Palestinians seem to only want everything!

Looks to me like IF Israel was really motivated to screw over the "Palestinians" they certainly have the military might. Lucky for the Palestinians that the power that controls the area is Israel and they don't seem to want to deliver a knock em dead punch to the Palestinian people. I'll bet they would to Hammas and those other lunatics that have, in my opinion, destroyed the chances of an independent state by their use of suicide bombers.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 30 October 2003 04:10 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Thanks for getting back on topic, Mishei...and whaddaya know, we agree on something!

Before we get back to regular thread drift, can anyone explain something I saw recently in the local Co-op?

Windsor Kosher Salt.

I thought "Kosher" had to do with certain dietary restrictions and the way an animal is butchered. How does salt fit in?


Kosher salt is used in the preperation of kosher meat. It aids in excising as much blood from the meat as possible. It is a courser grain and much better for cooking as Michelle has noted.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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Babbler # 3830

posted 30 October 2003 04:27 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EMGEE:
gagme says:Those people that used to live in Palestine under the Ottoman rulers are still living in their same houses but under an Israeli government and the land that they live on is still the same land but under a different name... Israel. So again, where's the problem???
You contradict everything you say. If the Palestinians were treated as equals, then I don't think there would have been a problem. However your extreme Jewish friends thought it would just be better to ethnically cleanse them from what is now referred to as Israel. I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 30 October 2003 04:58 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't have "extreme" Jewish friends. I do have some "extreme" Arab friends (well, at least Muslim).

You said:

quote:
If the Palestinians were treated as equals, then I don't think there would have been a problem.

Don't the Arabs in Israel get a vote and they have more representatives elected into the Israeli parliament than all the other Arab states combined.

The UN and Britain established Israel as an independent Jewish state. IF you want today to call that racism, well I guess there's a point to be made there. I personally see it as racist but I more see racism in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Syria....

so by definition, looked at in modern perspective, YES Israel is a racist state... but intentionally and agreed upon in advance by the bodies that created it and for circumstances which made the "evil" sceptre of racism acceptable.

I think that Israel could best serve itself by legitimizing its "racist" policies as being necessary for it's survival as the Jewish state that it was given birth as.

Most of the countries of that region are racist in one sense or another... so what if Israel is also.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 30 October 2003 05:07 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Most of the countries of that region are racist in one sense or another... so what if Israel is also.

We don't accept racism because other people are doing it too. We can't condem some racism and not others. It's really that simple. You can't justify racism by saying, well the next guy is more racist so I should be able to get by. And who decides what forms of racism are ignored?


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 30 October 2003 05:19 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EMGEE:
Courage, why do you find the need to be so abusive???

Because you abuse others with your feigned 'curiousity' masking a clear agenda. A purported 'balance' which is nothing of the sort. There was another poster who frequented these parts briefly who was prone to such fits of 'balance' as I recall...

quote:
"Long before Muslim armies TOOK the city." So you agree that originally the city was Jewish.

No. If we are to believe the Biblical account of the Conquering of Canaan, the Jews (led by King David) only TOOK the city of Jerusalem (it was then under Egyptian suzerainty) in about 1050 BCE. Then the Babylonians (Nebuchadnezzar) Then there was the Persians for the first time. Then there was Alexander and the Hellenes. Then Ptolemy and the Egyptians. Then the Seleucid Syrians. Then some Jews (Maccabbees) again for about 200 years, roughly. Roman Emporor Vespian then took control around 70 AD. Not long after, Jews were banned from the city entirely. Later, after the split of the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Christians controlled the city but it was briefly in Persian hands in the 6th and 7th Centuries. The Byzantines managed to reTAKE the city soon after. Then Arab Muslim armies TOOK it from the Byzantines who had done well with it for a few centuries. Only after Muslims came to control the city again were Jews permitted to return and worship there. And later an entirely different set of Muslims - the Seljuk Turks (whose Islam was very different from that practiced by the Arabs) TOOK the city from the Arabs. Then Frankish (mostly) Crusaders. Then a brief Kurdish rule. Then Ayyubid Muslims and then Mamluks took it from them. Then the Ottomans. Then the British...

[Note: There may be a couple of holes in this list, but it's roughly right]

As for Jerusalem's 'rightful owners' and the role of the UN - the UN decided and still desires Jerusalem to be an international/multifaith city. Israel's current sovereignty over certain parts of Jerusalem is illegal under international law.

quote:
And why should the Israelis keep the mosque there... "Because a sky ghost said so?"?????

I'm not particularly concerned about the Mosque, actually except as a symbol of consistency: i.e. two wrongs don't make a right. Also, as much as I'm not personally enamoured with the current versions of monotheism centred on Jerusalem, there are a lot of people who are. And if there is one guiding thread in all three faiths, it is one of tolerance. This has been observed more in the breach than in practice, however. But, it never hurts to reaffirm such things.

quote:
And why so much "yelling"???

No yelling, just a misplaced HTML tag.

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 30 October 2003 05:49 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
I would just like to say that I appreciate your responses today (other days too) Mishei, but especially today. Your responses have been both sober and straight forward, and it is very becoming of you, in my opinion. Thanks for the knowledge about the kosher salt as well!

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: evenflow ]


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 30 October 2003 06:00 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is a really cool pic of a grain of kosher salt -
http://www.mos.org/sln/sem/ksalt.html
Jewish neighbourhoods in the Maghreb - perhaps also elsewhere in the Arab world? were known as Mellahs which means a place where meat is cured or salted. The salting is one of the main differences between kosher and halal which are of course very similar in their injunctions about removing blood and inflicting the least possible pain on a beast to be slaughtered, by a razor-sharp blade (the removal of the sciatic nerve, or if not, not consuming the hindquarters is another).

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 30 October 2003 06:08 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Don't the Arabs in Israel get a vote and they have more representatives elected into the Israeli parliament than all the other Arab states combined.

We are not talking about Arabs in Israel. We are talking about Arabs in the disputed territories. Those people cannot vote in Israel. They cannot use Israeli services. Therefore they are not Israeli.

quote:
Smith (JOE???) stop being so friggen rude!!!! I am not on either side of this "debate"!!!

Bullshit. You've advocated tearing down Al-Aqsa.

quote:

IF the US were to take over Canada, you could call yourself an aardvark if you chose BUT the reality would be that you would be an American!

Not if I wasn't allowed to vote in American elections or use American highways.

quote:

BUT, the fact remains that Israel is the only side that seems to be willing to offer anything! The Palestinians seem to only want everything!

What exactly do they have to give? An end to the violence? They don't have control over Hamas or the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, certainly not the way Israel has control over the IDF. What else do they have to give?

quote:

Looks to me like IF Israel was really motivated to screw over the "Palestinians" they certainly have the military might. Lucky for the Palestinians that the power that controls the area is Israel and they don't seem to want to deliver a knock em dead punch to the Palestinian people.

You don't get extra credit for not committing genocide. Sorry.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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Babbler # 4601

posted 30 October 2003 06:08 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We don't accept racism because other people are doing it too. We can't condem some racism and not others. It's really that simple. You can't justify racism by saying, well the next guy is more racist so I should be able to get by. And who decides what forms of racism are ignored?


Just because we in Canada deplore racism why do we feel the need to push our concepts onto others. IF it is the norm in that region, as it is in the majority of countries around the world to be racist, what right have we here in Canada to look down on them?

We seem to be going against Israel as a racist state because we expect more from them as they are a democracy. Why?? As a democracy, they are represented by the majority of voters. IF they choose the path of their neighbours and choose racism and it is sanctioned by the UN (as a "Jewish" state) then so be it. We in Canada look at racism as a negative thing. It is obvious that in most countries of the world, it is not!

And no, I do NOT have a hidden agenda. It's funny how IF I differ in my views than so many here, no matter which "side", I'm hidding something.

How do you spell paranoid???


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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Babbler # 3192

posted 30 October 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're not hiding anything. Your rhetoric is plain and over-the-top, and it seems entirely calculated to negate the concerns of those nonexistent evil "palestinians."

quote:
Just because we in Canada deplore racism why do we feel the need to push our concepts onto others. IF it is the norm in that region, as it is in the majority of countries around the world to be racist, what right have we here in Canada to look down on them?

Ah, relativism. The same argument that was used to justify slavery in the American South: "it's part of our distinct culture." Sorry, no.

quote:

We seem to be going against Israel as a racist state because we expect more from them as they are a democracy.

No, we are going against their behaviour because we are asked to support it, financially and morally. I don't remember the last time anyone here tried to justify the behaviour of the Saudi Arabian monarchy. Sorry, no.

quote:

IF they choose the path of their neighbours and choose racism and it is sanctioned by the UN (as a "Jewish" state) then so be it.

Their existence is sanctioned by the UN. Their current behaviour is not. That is why we say it's illegal.

quote:

We in Canada look at racism as a negative thing. It is obvious that in most countries of the world, it is not!

Do you READ what you write? It is a negative thing, always. It's a negative thing when it's used against Jews, isn't it? (Or would you argue that pogroms are just "part of European culture," something like that?) Why isn't it a negative thing when it's used against anyone else?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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Babbler # 4601

posted 30 October 2003 06:38 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
YES (Joe) Smith, I do read what I write! And I'm sure glad that you don't like what I write because then I might think that I am like you!

Racism is a majority concept. Look at the UN today. MOST of the states are racist egalitarian regimes and they hold majority seating and hence voting in that world body. IF everyone sees racism as a part of the world, then it is. Right or wrong, majority says it's right so that's what it is.

Nobody here seems to want to lend credance to the distant past because it would be Israel that would have the oldest running claim to the territory. No one wants to look at today because it is Israel that controls the territory today.

So many want to look back exactly 55 years ago because that is before Israel was in charge of their land again.

I keep getting told here to stop looking at ther past. Okay, so let's all start fresh and lookat what is going on today.

There are a group of people living in a land where citizenship is granted to only a select few and they are not in that select few catagory. They've decided to rebel by blowing up the children of the citizens (and collateral damage is their own people). They are demanding that that country reliquish control of a large part of the country's land to them so that they can have a country of their own.

IF the Mennonites decide to be independent, how long would it take for Canada to give them Kitchener/Waterloo district as there own??? I don't think that it would ever happen!

Has anyone ever tried to compare the situation in Israel with it's Palestinian problem to that of Canada with its Francophone problem?

Even Francophones don't murder the children of Anglophones to make their point!


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 30 October 2003 06:43 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
YES (Joe) Smith, I do read what I write! And I'm sure glad that you don't like what I write because then I might think that I am like you!

Yeah, 'cause you so know me.

quote:

Racism is a majority concept. Look at the UN today. MOST of the states are racist egalitarian regimes and they hold majority seating and hence voting in that world body. IF everyone sees racism as a part of the world, then it is. Right or wrong, majority says it's right so that's what it is.

Might makes right. Gotcha.

quote:

Nobody here seems to want to lend credance to the distant past because it would be Israel that would have the oldest running claim to the territory.

Nobody wants to lend credence to the idea that nationhood should be determined by race.

By the way, the Jews took that land from the Canaanites. We're not sure who the descendants of the Canaanites are. They could well be the Arabs. This is not a simple matter.

What about the Jews who are descended from converts? Do you think all Ashkenazi Jews are 100% Israelite? Shall we start testing blood?

quote:

No one wants to look at today because it is Israel that controls the territory today.

We're looking at today. We're disputing the way Israel deals with the territory it controls. I don't see what your problem is.

quote:

There are a group of people living in a land where citizenship is granted to only a select few and they are not in that select few catagory. They've decided to rebel by blowing up the children of the citizens (and collateral damage is their own people). They are demanding that that country reliquish control of a large part of the country's land to them so that they can have a country of their own.

Are we talking about the Israelis or the Palestinians here?

quote:

IF the Mennonites decide to be independent, how long would it take for Canada to give them Kitchener/Waterloo district as there own??? I don't think that it would ever happen!

If we decided to shove the Mennonites off their farms and into refugee camps for fifty years, I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to be independent.

quote:

Has anyone ever tried to compare the situation in Israel with it's Palestinian problem to that of Canada with its Francophone problem?

We have a Francophone "problem"? I thought we just had Francophones.

quote:

Even Francophones don't murder the children of Anglophones to make their point!

Possibly because they are allowed to vote and travel and work in Anglo Canada, don't you think?

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 30 October 2003 06:59 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Francophone problem? How long till this one gets the boot?
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4601

posted 30 October 2003 06:59 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Joe Smith (you register in a lot of hotels don't you!) you seem to be going after every little thing I say as a negative!

quote:
Might makes right. Gotcha.

No, majority seems to make right, right or wrong!!!! IF majority is might then yes, might (in the form of majority) does in fact make right!!!!

quote:
Nobody wants to lend credence to the idea that nationhood should be determined by race.

But that's just the way it is in most of the world (see above on my views of might making right!) so you either accept is as the way it is or reject it ... your choice.


quote:
By the way, the Jews took that land from the Canaanites. We're not sure who the descendants of the Canaanites are. They could well be the Arabs. This is not a simple matter.


They could also be the Eskimos but we don't know that. We do know from a heck of a lot more than just the Bible that the Jews were there before anyone else on this planet that can step up to the plate. So we begin with what we know for certain.

quote:
What about the Jews who are descended from converts? Do you think all Ashkenazi Jews are 100% Israelite? Shall we start testing blood?


No, but they are Jews and by definition of Israel being a Jewish State, I guess they belong there as well.

Joe, I'm not saying that this is right! I'm saying that this is what it is.

I'm not saying that Israel has or hasn't got the right to bomb the heck out of it's "problematic province to the east" (sorry, I had to say that!) in retaliation for that "province" sending suicide bombers.

But that is what's happening... in thier own country!!!!


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kimura
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4490

posted 30 October 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for Kimura     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EMGEE:
I am not on either side of this "debate"!!!

snort.

sounds like you've got your mind made up to me.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kimura
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4490

posted 30 October 2003 07:18 PM      Profile for Kimura     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EMGEE:

Just because we in Canada deplore racism why do we feel the need to push our concepts onto others. IF it is the norm in that region, as it is in the majority of countries around the world to be racist, what right have we here in Canada to look down on them?


what are you trying to say? that racism is the global norm and therefore should be accepted?

murder happens all over the world too. should we accept that? arms production, sexual exploitation, genocide actions... guess that's the nature of humanity. oh well!

i guess you don't believe in things like universal human rights. empathy. compassion. all that foolishly idealistic stuff. the "way it is" seems to be that life is shit. live it up!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 30 October 2003 07:22 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Kimura:
[QB]

what are you trying to say? that racism is the global norm and therefore should be accepted?


It probably is. But no, we shouldn't accept it. That said, as usual, dear EMGEE's arguments are self-defeating. His/her defense of Israel falls to pieces if we apply any of his/her 'tenets'....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 30 October 2003 07:26 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
EMGEE, why do you even bother discussing this? If you just believe "that's the way it is," why take any stand at all, let alone start slobbering about Palestinian peaceniks being slaughtered like dogs?

By the way, my name is not Joe. Neither is my handle.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 30 October 2003 07:45 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's see . . . Isreali racism good, Palestinian Terrorism bad!! How does one decide which atrocity is acceptable in your world EMGEE?? Is it based on the act, or the "race" that is committing the act??
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged

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