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Author Topic: interview with Ilan Shalif on Israel-Palestine
Mick
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Babbler # 2753

posted 24 October 2003 01:35 PM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
quote:

yeniHarman, interview with Ilan Shalif on Israel-Palestine

The following interview was published in Issue 35 of the weekly yeni Harman (*) magazine, dated 23 August '03. Ilan Shalif - a libertarian communist
from Israel- talks with Batur Ozdinc on the Israel-Palestine problem.

Batur: Hi Ilan! I know u were born in West Jerusalem when it was under the British Mandate. Can u tell us a little bit about those times? Your own life history and the constitution of Israeli state in 1948...

Ilan: I grew up in a western suburb of the town with 25 families in it - it was called Shchunat Hapoalim - "the workers' locality". Most of them were naZionists of the 20th - from Eastern Europe. In the locality were two small dairy businesses - one next to my one family house. In my home there was for a while naZionist
military point - when I was 2 - it moved to another house.



From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 24 October 2003 05:24 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Batur: When did the Palestinian movement actually start to
affect life in Israel? Since it was built up? (I mean the lives
of ordinary people.)

Ilan: There was resistance from the beginning, in the 1880s.

Batur: Later after the founding of the Israeli state?

Ilan: The hottest struggle was in the 1936-9 period. It was
suppressed by the British Army and the naZionist paramilitaries.
Then it flared up again in 1947-9.

Batur: Do you think it was a deep national or ethnic thing in
the people? Zionism I mean. Or did it increase after the
reaction from Palestinians? Or was it also something related to
(capitalist) power struggles?

Ilan: It was a nationalist thing from the beginning - the
opposite of anti-semitism. It was a secular version of extreme
religious nationalism. The Jewish religion is very racist and
its most vicious exponents are the Religious Zionists.

Batur: How about the peace process and such events? In about
1990s it looked like things would work out well - until that
assassination. What do you think about that?

Ilan: It was a fake from the beginning. The day after they
signed the Oslo thing, the government started to harass the
Palestinians to force them into submission, both economically
and by refusing to get out of the agreed areas according to the
timetable.

Batur: But it was declared to the world as something very
brilliant! It was said to open the way to a Palestinian state!

Ilan: No. The Oslo accord left that open. Entity yes -
independence no. To this day, Israel never agreed to full
independence for Palestinians.

Batur: By the way, what do you think about the Palestinian
resistance? Is there any connection of those people within the
Israeli side? I mean what is the actual relation between Israeli
dissidents (leftists and non-Zionists) and Palestinians?

Ilan: There were a few leftists that tried to co-operate with
the resistance of the Palestinians in an illegal way. The
Palestinan resistance mainly consists of an elite striving for a
state of their own. There are leftist tendencies among the
Palestinians too.

Batur: I also wonder how daily life is in Israel. As someone
looking at it from the inside - how is Israeli society for the
Jewish community of Israel? Are they frightened, militarized,
democratic?

Ilan: They are frightened. Neo-liberalism is fucking the working
class - like Thatcherism. There is 12% unemployment. A majority
would agree to a Palestinian State. People are frightened, and
there has been a 10% drop in income over the last few years.


Excellent interview. Thanks for posting. I think there must be a lot of people in Israel who feel just like lots of people in the US. That is, they are opposed to their respective leaders' tendency towards massive military violence, but are powerless to change it. Those leaders are in office for their full term and, just like everyone else, they just have to live with it. The Palestinian militants are also just as extreme, but in their case, its not the elected group that is the central advocate towards violence. Thats not an excuse for their side of it, but while Bush and Sharon clearly have their finger on the trigger, Arafat does not control those who resort to the suicide bombings.

They are like pseudo dictatorships in the sense that you get voted in (or appointed in Bush's case) and then get to act like a dictator or 'commander in chief' for the next 4 years. No amount of public outcry seems to even slow down whatever campaign they are bent on.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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Babbler # 4572

posted 24 October 2003 06:10 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Jewish religion is very racist and
its most vicious exponents are the Religious Zionists.

evenflow thinks that that is an excellent interview. Geez, I'd hate to see what a less-than-excellent interview would produce.
quote:
while Bush and Sharon clearly have their finger on the trigger, Arafat does not control those who resort to the suicide bombings.

What planet are we on? Isn't Arafat the same guy that invented skyjacking?

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 24 October 2003 06:29 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not unless he's actually Peruvian.

The first skyjacking in the Middle East wasn't even perpetrated by Arabs. Israeli warplanes forced down two civilian airliners way back in 1954.

But then, I hardly expect our new friend to be a student of history.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 25 October 2003 12:09 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whaever Arafat did or did not "invent" is irrelevant. The point is that his current ability to control or prevent the suicide bombings is precisely zero. Even if he wanted to stop them (which is debatable), he couldn't. The PA's infrastructure has been comprehensively demolished by the Israeli military, including the security services which he's expected to use to corral the extremists.

What's he supposed to do, throw chunks of rubble from his HQ at Hamas?


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 October 2003 02:02 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I remember Ilan from when I participated in an Irish-based "Class struggle anarchism" discussion group. He wasn't keen on the IDF...

He always gave his address as "Occupied Palestain."

Ilan's Homepage


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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Babbler # 3192

posted 25 October 2003 02:07 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Jewish religion is very racist and
its most vicious exponents are the Religious Zionists.

Oh, my goodness, that's a dreadful thing to say.

Admittedly I think some of the decisions of the Orthodox community are unwise, there seems to be more hostility to converts than you'd expect, but to say the religion itself is racist...no, no, no. It can be interpreted in a racist way, just as Islam and Christianity can and have been for generations.

Jabotinsky-style Zionism is intensely racist. A lot of religious Zionism has very strong racist tendencies. Hell, hard-core nationalism of any stripe is very racist. Shalif is making the same mistake made over and over again on both sides of this conflict, of equating Judaism with Zionism and Zionism with its cruellest and most militaristic forms.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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Babbler # 3493

posted 27 October 2003 09:58 AM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
evenflow thinks that that is an excellent interview. Geez, I'd hate to see what a less-than-excellent interview would produce.

Well, this one is excellent, in my opinion, because the questions and answers are very clear and direct. The interviewer seems to enjoy giving the interview and the person being interviewed seems to be relaxed and speaks frankly. I like that in an interview. I guess a less-than-excellent one would be one in which there isn't any sense of real communication but just a bunch of rehearsed answers, etc.

Of course you are referring to the content of the interview which you obviously disagree with. You have a right to that but it doesn't make it less of an excellent interview, which is what I was talking about. I don't agree or disagree with him (or you), its just nice to see someone speaking their mind. I would say the same thing about you, but you mostly seem to be repressive of anything other than a pro-Israel point of view.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mori
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Babbler # 4594

posted 27 October 2003 11:06 AM      Profile for Mori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
evenflow... so the interview is "good" because the participants are relaxed? Dosen't matter that what is said is off the mark, just so long as the participants are sitting nicely in a comfy chair... nice, really really nice!

Do you ever read what you write????


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Uri_Eidel
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Babbler # 4597

posted 27 October 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for Uri_Eidel        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
evenflow... so the interview is "good" because the participants are relaxed? Dosen't matter that what is said is off the mark, just so long as the participants are sitting nicely in a comfy chair... nice, really really nice!
Do you ever read what you write????

Yes, that alone makes it a good interview. The fact that you think his opinions are off the mark is not fact, but only your opinion. He has another opinion which he, like you, has a right to express, no? If the only interviews you think are good could be mentioned on babble, we might as well redirect the rabble site to CNN.


From: Ontario | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged

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