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Author Topic: IDF Appreciation Day at York?!!
Mick
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posted 22 October 2003 10:39 AM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:30:53 -0400
From: york public interest research group
Fwd: IDF Appreciation Day at York?!!

Hi everybody. The York Office for Student Affairs listserve for Student Funded Organizations posted this notice to us this afternoon, as they do with all events taking place through their office in the East Bear Pit.

It seems that York University's re-branding project, from the old motto of "Tentanda Via" ["the way must be tried"] to its current "Re-define the possible", is affecting the political culture here on campus as well.

Certainly this celebration of militarism wouldn't have been possible in previous years; given the highly charged atmosphere that exists on campus due to bombs exploding in Israel and Palestine one would think that York would act more circumspect in this matter.

I think that any "Appreciation Day" for armed forces of any nation should be questioned by any adult, and what's more I'm apprehensive about how York University's Administration will supervise this event, given their reaction to protests against Daniel Pipes' speaking engagement last year - cops, lots of cops, cops with horses, cops with surveillance vans, cops. Will there be a sizable contingent of Toronto's "finest" in Central Square tomorrow?

The notice is below. What you do with this information is for you to decide.

------------------------------
The Young Zionist Partnership will be holding IDF (Israel Defense Forces) Appreciation Day on Wednesday, October 22nd in the Central Square Bear Pit.

This day is to honour those who are protecting our freedoms by fighting in Israel on the front lines of the global war on terrorism.

There will be music, a guest speaker, and information displays from 10:30 am until 3:30 pm. Everyone is encouraged to wear IDF clothing.

For more information: info@youngzionist.com


Lorraine Carriere
York Information Assistant
York University
4700 Keele Street
103 Central Square
Toronto, Ontario
Canada M3J 1P3

Tel: 416-736-5144
Fax: 416-736-5461


From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 22 October 2003 10:44 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How much do you want to bet that "Lorraine Carriere" is getting lots of phone calls today?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 22 October 2003 10:46 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great time to organize an AL Queada or Hammas apprectiation day, don't you think?

Dispicable


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 22 October 2003 11:43 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh lordy.

I could understand them having an Israel Appreciation Day, but the IDF? Why this obnoxious militarism? Why would the YZ choose to do this in a school that has many Arab students as well as Jewish ones?

I don't doubt that the IDF does much to protect the citizens of Israel proper, but in order to support and "appreciate" everything they do, you pretty much have to believe that all Arabs are terrorists.

[ 22 October 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 22 October 2003 12:02 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hell, I wouldn't support a Canadian Forces appreciation day, and not just because of October 1970 or the Oka Crisis. Militarism is not a value to be fostered at a university.

Remembrance of the dead in wars and honouring veterans is another matter, but appreciation of any army as an institution is honouring a cult of death.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 22 October 2003 01:36 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, a celebration of any Army is a celebration of force, of heirarchy, and of obeying orders.

I presume no one is so insensitive as to subject the York community to an event like this. (Remember that Judy Rebick couldn't speak at Concordia with Svend Robinson because it was too "provocative"?)

But here is a suggestion: Leni Riefenstahl did a film celebrating "Our Army: The Wehrmacht."

Here is a summary from the net:

"Pure propaganda at its sinister best. Intercut images of a military parade; tanks, troops, individual faces & Hitler. Without any narration, it manages to document the extraordinary power of the Nazi war machine."

I think this should be shown at the same time as Army Celebration Day. It's silent, it wouldn't interfere.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 22 October 2003 01:49 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A bunch of self hating Jews, just trying to ramp up that old hate meter!!

Of course, if some outraged Palestinians are provoked to protest this event, these asshole will complan about an "unprovoked attack on their democratic right of free speech" . . . as far as I'm concerned, this "appreciation day" is the ultimate in hate speech against Palestianians and Arabs, and since there are hate speech lawson the books, the rally should be shut down and those responsible put on trial for hate speech crimes!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Maggot
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posted 22 October 2003 06:40 PM      Profile for Maggot   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Of course, if some outraged Palestinians are provoked to protest this event, these asshole will complan about an "unprovoked attack on their democratic right of free speech" . . . as far as I'm concerned, this "appreciation day" is the ultimate in hate speech against Palestianians and Arabs, and since there are hate speech lawson the books, the rally should be shut down and those responsible put on trial for hate speech crimes!!

No. Let them do it. And then laugh your ass off while they try to justify this one. No grey area here; pure provocation, plain and simple.


From: BC | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 22 October 2003 06:48 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Has anyone checked their web site here? Check out the links - with all the references to WorlNetDaily.com, AynRand.org, and StockwellDay.com, sounds like a loser parade for the perenially dateless...of course, I'd never say that, because it's too mean.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 22 October 2003 09:09 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Maggot:

No. Let them do it. And then laugh your ass off while they try to justify this one. No grey area here; pure provocation, plain and simple.


I'd like to be able to do that, but then I think of the reality of what is likely to happen, and laughing is not what I feel like doing!!

I can laugh at this no more than I could a mien Kempt book sale in front of a synagouge!!

If they want to admire their army, then do it in the privacy of their own country, or at least their own home or place of private Jewish community!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 23 October 2003 12:40 PM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is simple provocation. Considering the highly charged atmosphere of the York Campus these days (the horrible vandalism during Succot by anti-semites, the Pipes lecture), it seems very inappropriate. Celebrations of armed forces are never acceptable to me, especially ones like the IDF, and at York of all places. Hopefully these "young zionists" will grow up, study their Torah a little more closely, and learn some restraint.
From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 23 October 2003 12:48 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If they want to admire their army, then do it in the privacy of their own country

Their country? Don't you mean, "in the privacy of their stolen, ethnically cleansed and illegally occupied territory"?


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 23 October 2003 12:54 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by worker_drone:
Their country? Don't you mean, "in the privacy of their stolen, ethnically cleansed and illegally occupied territory"?

Well, given that we in Canada and the US all live in stolen, ethnically cleansed and illegally occupied territory (well, it isn't illegally occupied now, but the circumstances under which it was taken would certainly be illegal today), I think we should be careful where we point our fingers.

I agree that the IDF appreciation day is nasty and provocative, but part of what spurs people to do hateful things like this is the attitude they perceive from outsiders, that Israel is bad no matter what it does.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 23 October 2003 02:35 PM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:

Well, given that we in Canada and the US all live in stolen, ethnically cleansed and illegally occupied territory (well, it isn't illegally occupied now, but the circumstances under which it was taken would certainly be illegal today), I think we should be careful where we point our fingers.

I agree that the IDF appreciation day is nasty and provocative, but part of what spurs people to do hateful things like this is the attitude they perceive from outsiders, that Israel is bad no matter what it does.


I have to agree with you. Being a part of the local Jewish community, I have all too often seen this reaction. Otherwise rational, compassionate people, are reacting with these insane, knee-jerk actions. I know a number of York students who for no logical reason are supporting hateful and provocative events and speech. Their reasoning is that are attacking Israel and its policies, so we must band together (no matter how wrong or stupid those they join may be). It is a sad, but all too common, happening. It seems the more polarized the campus becomes, the more polarized it becomes still. Quite the reflection of the murderous fools in the middle east.


From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 23 October 2003 04:29 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That would apply to both sides of the issue would it not??

There are people on both sides who do hateful and provocative things because they feel they are attacking Israel or Palestian and their polcies, and there are people on the other side who feel they must band together!!

I think that if you really believe, as your post seems to point out, that the Jewish group is justified in doing what it is doing, or that Jews should support this action based simply on the grounds that all Jews must band together because Israeli policy is being attacked, then I think you're part off the problem . . . maybe you could turn around that logic and apply it to the average Palestian, who band together with Hammas terrorists/freedom fighters, because they see "banding together" for much the same poor reasoning you are using!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 23 October 2003 04:57 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:

Well, given that we in Canada and the US all live in stolen, ethnically cleansed and illegally occupied territory (well, it isn't illegally occupied now, but the circumstances under which it was taken would certainly be illegal today), I think we should be careful where we point our fingers.


Saying this is saying it's ok to commit such an act. To suggest that we (Canadians) did it too over 200 years ago, legitimizes Israel's ethnic cleansing only 50 years ago, this is modern times, there is people still alive today who witnessed it first hand. 2 different times and 2 different attitudes. If this were to happen again with 2 other countries, can we say... Look Israel did it too, so it's ok?

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 23 October 2003 04:58 PM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not sure who you are responding to No Yards, but you make an excellent point. Unfortunately these people, be it out of fear or anger, are making choices that only serve to further the mistrust and hatred. I think it is very sad that these Jews feel a clearly antagonistic IDF support event is a good way to respond to anti-Isreali sentiment. The IDF is a great source of pain and misery for thousands of people, and celebrating it is completely inappropriate. Futhermore, many make the even worse mistake of labelling all critiques of Israel as anti-semitism (a disgustingly common event these days). Considering the fate that Israel deals to many people, criticism is deserved.

You are also correct when you point out that this sort of behaviour is a crime committed by both sides. No doubt Arab/Palestinians and Israelis/Jews have done much to escalate the tensions at York by these sorts of events.


From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mick
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posted 23 October 2003 05:08 PM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No doubt Arab/Palestinians and Israelis/Jews have done much to escalate the tensions at York by these sorts of events.

I'll take that bet. Name a similar display that was done on York campus by arabs or palestinians.


From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 23 October 2003 05:22 PM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Black:

I'll take that bet. Name a similar display that was done on York campus by arabs or palestinians.


Well, I don't know about similar or not. I can relate two incidents I experienced on campus a few years back. I can't say whether they had "official" stamps of approval from student groups or not, but the effect was the same.

On one occasion I witnessed a small group (3-4) of students, who appeared to be of Arab origin shout insults at at JFS table promoing "birth-right" trips to Israel. Included in the insults was the term "Nazi". Clearly meant to anger and offend.

Another time, upon entering a tuturial in which we were dealing with the question of British Palestine , someone had put up two small Israeli flags, One with the star replaced by a tank, the other with a swastika.

Now these seem to have been actions carried off by small groups of individuals. In fact I'm not even certain the last one was done by Arabs, though the first was.

The point I was making was that small groups of zealots can do too much damage, especially in times when more reasonable (though not very intelligent) people are receptive to their hateful messages. When a Jew of any political leaning is called a Nazi, they tend to react, often emotionally. It seems a shame to me that these fools in the "Young Zionists" are able to gather so much support. It will only make things worse.


From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 23 October 2003 05:29 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
GB . . . the post was directed at you . . . I may have misread your post, as it seemed to be saying that the Jews were justified in banding together because everyone was stupidly against them . . . I may have been mistaken in my take on what you were saying.

Mick has a point . . . many of the Jewish student body seems to know how to put on an event to best take advantage of Palestianian "hot buttons"!!

I can recall in the last year or so a number of controversial Jewish "events", that seemed to be designed purposely to get under the skin of the Palestianian student body!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 23 October 2003 05:31 PM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah I think you misunderstood me. I in no way support these actions by the Jewish student groups. I was saying they were NOT justified. They are terrible. And I agree that they are often (it seems) designed to provoke. Actually, I know of individuals anyway who participate for that very reason. The make me sick.
From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 23 October 2003 05:36 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gentlebreeze, your nick is very apt. I think your thoughtful and balanced approach to these issues does you great credit. Just my two cents.
From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 23 October 2003 10:57 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Saying this is saying it's ok to commit such an act. To suggest that we (Canadians) did it too over 200 years ago, legitimizes Israel's ethnic cleansing only 50 years ago, this is modern times, there is people still alive today who witnessed it first hand. 2 different times and 2 different attitudes. If this were to happen again with 2 other countries, can we say... Look Israel did it too, so it's ok?

No, I'm not saying it's okay. But you know what? My ancestors came to Upper Canada from England and Ireland 170 years ago or so, and when they came here, they settled on land given to them by the Crown. That land had been inhabited by aboriginal Canadians; those aboriginal Canadians were pushed off their land so that my ancestors could farm there, make the land productive, "make the desert bloom" in the Israeli phrase.

My ancestors were able to settle and raise families because of the livelihood that was given to them. I think one could reasonably argue that I am still profiting from the theft of that land. I'm not saying it's okay; it's decidedly not okay. Unfortunately, it cannot be undone at this point. I think we have a duty to mitigate its effects as much as we can, and I think we could do much better with that, but no matter what we do, it cannot be undone.

I believe Israelis have a duty not to make the situation any worse; that is why I abhor the occupation, the continued land grab, and the discriminatory laws in the Israeli state. But 1948 can't be undone. What has been destroyed is not coming back. And it doesn't make sense to destroy what was built on top of it, or to give Israelis and their supporters the impression that we want to erase them from the map. If they think we want to obliterate them - and for obvious reasons, fears of obliteration are very prominent in the general Jewish consciousness these days - they'll react the way the Young Zionists are reacting, and worse. There's a context for their behaviour and their feelings, no less than there is a context for Muslim/Arab anti-Semitism, and we have to acknowledge that.

[ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 23 October 2003 11:04 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Smith! So long, no read. Good to have you back. Your incisive and agile mind has been missed, at least by me.
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 24 October 2003 09:07 AM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by April Follies:
Gentlebreeze, your nick is very apt. I think your thoughtful and balanced approach to these issues does you great credit. Just my two cents.

Thanks April. Living where I do, balance is a must, or at least I feel that way. Saddly though, not many seem to share that view. I see people intentionally drive by cultural centres waving the opposing "national" flags and shouting slogans. I have seen people refuse to eat at an establishment they have been going to for 20 years because it is run by Israeli ARABS (for those who know the GTA, I am talking about Sababa, the home of the greatest Falafel around. I now make a point of going there more often because they have suffered a drop in business after the Intifada began).

Sometimes, I wish we could just find some giant enclosed area, take these blinkered rage filled idiots and throw them in there. Let them sort it out by tearing each other to pieces. But then I remember I deplore violence.


From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 October 2003 10:31 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was prepared to read some ranting and raving on this thread, but it has turned into a wonderful discussion. Thanks to the thoughtful.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 24 October 2003 10:40 AM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I was prepared to read some ranting and raving on this thread, but it has turned into a wonderful discussion. Thanks to the thoughtful.


Quite a pleasant suprise isn't it? Considering the way most threads on the middle east turn, its is a nice change. However, I do notice that some of the more, ummm... "energetic" posters on this subject have not appeared here.


From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 24 October 2003 10:42 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
I believe Israelis have a duty not to make the situation any worse; that is why I abhor the occupation, the continued land grab, and the discriminatory laws in the Israeli state. But 1948 can't be undone. What has been destroyed is not coming back. And it doesn't make sense to destroy what was built on top of it, or to give Israelis and their supporters the impression that we want to erase them from the map. If they think we want to obliterate them - and for obvious reasons, fears of obliteration are very prominent in the general Jewish consciousness these days - they'll react the way the Young Zionists are reacting, and worse. There's a context for their behaviour and their feelings, no less than there is a context for Muslim/Arab anti-Semitism, and we have to acknowledge that.
[ 23 October 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]

I'm not saying it should be undone. We cannot undo 1948, however anything after that must be undone. The occupation, settlements, taking away rights etc etc. Talk about farms and making the desert bloom !! I'm mean the Palestinians have been growing crops there for centuries. How about the poor Arab farmer who has his olive patch (His livelyhood), and gets it taking away to make a settlement bloom?? Like I said it's 2 different mentalities and 2 different reasons.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 October 2003 11:52 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
Great time to organize an AL Queada or Hammas apprectiation day, don't you think?

Dispicable


The comparision is as always asinine and evil.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 October 2003 12:12 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I spoke too soon.

Nice to meet you, though, Gentlebreeze.

And now that the gloves are off, I guess I'll put in my two cents' worth. Someone in the York admin either wasn't thinking or needs head examined. The IDF is not only an army but a foreign army, and this is a deliberately provocative event.

I assume that no recruiting for the IDF will be going on? Would that not be illegal? Did this issue not arise in Montreal last year?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 24 October 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, people can practice not responding to blatant provocation just by ignoring Mishei.

Seriously, I think it's a valueable skill to cultivate. I know I have a bug in my brain about agents provacateur, but it just tears me up to see people with whom I agree in principle act like idiots in a fit of anger. I hate it even more when I do it, of course.

It helps to have level-headed people around you. I let myself get baited at one demo - a guy kept chanting, "War is great!" at us, and I lost the battle with temptation and shouted back that he should go experience that greatness firsthand. Fortunately, saner heads to either side of me reminded me, "We're not responding, just ignore him..." and I managed to shut it, after of course turning scarlet with embarassment for having been an idjit. However, the experience was salutary for me, in that I've been much better about not letting myself be baited since then.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 24 October 2003 02:00 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
The comparision is as always asinine and evil.
No it isin't there both worse than each other. Both evil terrorist entities. What also evil is your apologizing and evident ignorance.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 24 October 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by April Follies:
Well, people can practice not responding to blatant provocation just by ignoring Mishei.

"We're not responding, just ignore him..." and I managed to shut it, after of course turning scarlet with embarassment for having been an idjit. However, the experience was salutary for me, in that I've been much better about not letting myself be baited since then.


Uh... I guess I should have read and considered your post first.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 24 October 2003 02:12 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
The comparision is as always asinine and evil.

Is this another one of those attempts at baiting your enemy into "taking a poke at you"??

Stay away from him BP . . . all that will happen is when you make a fool out of him for making such an abviously illogical baiting statement, he will then play the anti-Semite card!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 October 2003 02:17 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not even that comfortable with the Canadian Armed Forces openly recruiting on university campuses; being that it is our own armed forces, I can let it go at that, as long as they don't try and make me join up.

Having a foreign armed forces recruiter on campus would be totally unacceptable to me, so if this uni ever had an "IDF Appreciation Day" or a "US Army Appreciation Day" or even a "Timbuktu Army Appreciation Day", that would be unacceptability squared as far as I'm concerned, because openly celebrating the military of another country is just not on. Don't ask me to explain my rationale for it; it's fundamentally a phenomenon that makes me feel most uneasy.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 24 October 2003 02:20 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doc, is it just the army recruiting or do you have a problem with campus recruiting in general?
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
4t2
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posted 24 October 2003 02:21 PM      Profile for 4t2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I do think it's a mistake to see this particular event as a 'Jewish community' or 'Jewish students' event. The Young Zionist Partnership at York is pretty much a one-man band, the same person who is the leading light in the Canadian Alliance branch on campus. There is a big difference between a genuinely pro-Israel demo (whether it be under the auspices of a Jewish group or otherwise) and this laughable attempt at causing a controversy.

Their other stunts while I was there included a 'pro-American' rally (or gentle stroll, given the numbers) and a display of all the pro-war-on-Iraq flags, the idea lifted directly from a display in the CA office in Ottawa.

I should also add that the organiser also runs around in a Stars and Stripes jacket and trousers. Which, apart from the political dimension, makes him look like a court jester, not a committed activist

Personally I think the attempt to create some correlation between the existence of Israel and the hard-right agenda of the Alliance is disgusting. The likes of the YZP seem to believe that they are one and the same. The reality is far, far more complex.


From: Beyond the familiar... | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 24 October 2003 02:23 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sounds like someone bucking to be the next Pipes.

A stars and stripes jacket?? And trousers?? Really?


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 24 October 2003 02:32 PM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stars and Stripes outfit eh? Are you sure he is not the guitarist from MC5? We might have this guy all wrong.
From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 24 October 2003 03:09 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bwah! "No, I'm starting a band called Young Zionist! I need a drummer, wanna join?"

quote:

I'm not saying it should be undone. We cannot undo 1948, however anything after that must be undone. The occupation, settlements, taking away rights etc etc.

Yes, I agree with you there. The continued land grab and the discriminatory laws are unacceptable and should be remedied. I'm just saying that we have to make it very clear that we respect the Israeli Jews' right to be there.

quote:

Talk about farms and making the desert bloom !! I'm mean the Palestinians have been growing crops there for centuries. How about the poor Arab farmer who has his olive patch (His livelyhood), and gets it taking away to make a settlement bloom?? Like I said it's 2 different mentalities and 2 different reasons.

Well, the thing is, it is and it isn't. There are, for example, some pretty tight parallels between the early American Pilgrims and the various waves of Jewish settlers in Israel/Palestine. The Puritans, like the Jews, were fleeing religious persecution; they saw themselves as quite closely resembling the Jews, in some ways - hence the number of places in the New World named Bethlehem or Salem or New Canaan or what have you. And the reasoning the Israelis have used to justify their pushing the Arabs off the land - that the Arabs were not using the land productively - is pretty much word for word the reason the Puritans gave for pushing the native Americans off their land.

I don't think the colonial mentality varies that much from place to place, to tell you the truth. With Israel there's the idea that the land was God-given to the Jews, but I think most colonizers have been (or pretended to be) convinced that they were doing God's work.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 October 2003 03:17 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
No it isin't there both worse than each other. Both evil terrorist entities. What also evil is your apologizing and evident ignorance.

I have nothing to apologize for. While I disagree with holding such an event at York, the IDF is not lilly white like any army including our own it has made and committed violations that have had tragic consequences. But to label it as a terrorist entity is ignorant and wrong. Unless of course you are prepared to say the same of any armed forces. Then we will have a better understanding of from whence you come.

[ 24 October 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 24 October 2003 05:19 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's an arm of a terrorist organization . . . like the charitable wing of Hamas is an arm of a terrorist organization . . . is that better??
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 24 October 2003 05:23 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

I have nothing to apologize for. While I disagree with holding such an event at York, the IDF is not lilly white like any army including our own it has made and committed violations that have had tragic consequences. But to label it as a terrorist entity is ignorant and wrong. Unless of course you are prepared to say the same of any armed forces. Then we will have a better understanding of from whence you come.

[ 24 October 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


The IDF has been terrorizing the Palestinians day in and day out. Every day. Scrutinizing them, humiliating them. This is Terror in the clear. I can't think of any other possible name to call these monsters. That applies to their terrorist enemies on the other side of the fence. It takes one to know one, and the Israeli's were the pioneers of Terrorism.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 24 October 2003 05:33 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Unless of course you are prepared to say the same of any armed forces.

That sounds pretty reasonable to me. At least they all have the potential (unless they're clearing snow and stuff like that where they don't need their weapons).

From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 24 October 2003 06:48 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

I have nothing to apologize for. While I disagree with holding such an event at York, the IDF is not lilly white like any army including our own it has made and committed violations that have had tragic consequences. But to label it as a terrorist entity is ignorant and wrong. Unless of course you are prepared to say the same of any armed forces. Then we will have a better understanding of from whence you come.

[ 24 October 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


Well, I might, but that's beside the point. I don't agree with your relativism here, Mishei (yes, it is relativism) - the IDF are responsible for a dispicable occupation and other travesties that few armies could claim as their own.

When was the last time the CAF fired missiles into a civilian area? When was the last time they bulldozed houses leaving dozens homeless?

Can't think of any instances? There's the difference.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 October 2003 06:55 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:

Is this another one of those attempts at baiting your enemy into "taking a poke at you"??

Stay away from him BP . . . all that will happen is when you make a fool out of him for making such an abviously illogical baiting statement, he will then play the anti-Semite card!!



Yeah, take No Yards' advice and...oh wait, No Yards didn't take his own advice, did he?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 24 October 2003 07:44 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How lovely to read you again Smith!

I'd say militarism has no place on campus, and that goes double for a military that has been cited numrous times by Amnesty international for human rights abuses.

There are other ways to do this. A group of students at UofT was outside the library yesterday handing out buttons that said "More Hummus, less Hamas." Conjurs up images of everyone sitting down together for a nice meal. I'd be tempted to pair it with one saying "More Sharin', Less Sharon."


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 October 2003 11:02 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Well, I might, but that's beside the point. I don't agree with your relativism here, Mishei (yes, it is relativism) - the IDF are responsible for a dispicable occupation and other travesties that few armies could claim as their own.

When was the last time the CAF fired missiles into a civilian area? When was the last time they bulldozed houses leaving dozens homeless?

Can't think of any instances? There's the difference.


Just out of curiosity when was the last time Canada found itself fighting terrorists who walked into their homes, resterants, bus stations and schools blowing themseleves up and murdering hundreds with them? Yes Courage everything is relative.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 25 October 2003 03:22 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Just out of curiosity when was the last time Canada found itself fighting terrorists who walked into their homes, resterants, bus stations and schools blowing themseleves up and murdering hundreds with them? Yes Courage everything is relative.
I just had 2 beers and reading this makes me feel wasted. Just what the hell are you trying to say?

Pssst...english please!


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 25 October 2003 12:06 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:


Yeah, take No Yards' advice and...oh wait, No Yards didn't take his own advice, did he?


Hey, it was bad advice in the first place . . . over the top biggotry is a hard thing not to respond against!

P.S. I though you avoided the ME threads??

[ 25 October 2003: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 25 October 2003 08:31 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:

Just what the hell are you trying to say?

Pssst...english please!


If you can't speak it , don't type it!


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 25 October 2003 08:42 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Ha...............ha.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 25 October 2003 09:19 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Just out of curiosity when was the last time Canada found itself fighting terrorists who walked into their homes, resterants, bus stations and schools blowing themseleves up and murdering hundreds with them? Yes Courage everything is relative.

About the last time Canada faced a brutal, occupation army intent on dehumanizing and humilating them, murdering their children, destroying their livelihood, stealing their land and forcing them to drink from puddles while they bathe in swimming pools.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 25 October 2003 09:38 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When was the last time the CAF fired missiles into a civilian area? When was the last time they bulldozed houses leaving dozens homeless?

Can't think of any instances? There's the difference.



Well, how far back do you want to go? Does it have to be more recent than the last IDF bulldozing?

OK. How about when the First Nations had their lands expropriated and moved the ones who survived onto reservations. Oh, I forgot, they weren't called the CAF then and there weren't any bulldozers then so I guess that doesn't count?


From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 25 October 2003 09:41 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What?? You mean that the Palestinians aren't just inbred with the suicide bomber gene??

I'd bet the very same people who condem the Palestinians, would not hesitate for a second doing the same thing if it were their family, homes, lands, that were being threathened!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 25 October 2003 11:47 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I should note that there are substantial differences between the situation as regards Aboriginal Canadians and Palestinian-Arabs. While, structurally, Aboriginals face substantial discrimination, hostility, and most commonly, indifference to their fate, they do not face such limited options as to feel that armed force is their only route to getting peoples' attention; look how well their targetted blockages have managed to whap the Canadian government(s) across the nose with a two-by-four to get their attention.

By contrast I suspect a targetted peaceful blockade by Palestinian-Arabs would be met by a ridiculous over-use of force by the IDF akin to my old comparison of swatting a fly with a Buick.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 26 October 2003 01:10 AM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was certainly not trying to draw an exact analogy. However, Ipperwash and the death of Dudley George stands out as a recent example.
From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 26 October 2003 02:13 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:

If you can't speak it , don't type it!


That was very low. But then again, what else can I expect when it comes from the bowels of the earth.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
young zionist
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posted 26 October 2003 03:04 AM      Profile for young zionist        Edit/Delete Post
Hello all,

As VP Operations for the (now infamous?) YZP, I'd like to thank everyone for the honour of having an entire thread on rabble.ca dedicated to one of our programs.

Just as a clarification, we are not a one-man show. We are actually a two-bit operation. We also have several hundred members at York who help by showing up to our events and such.

Also - I don't own or wear any stars-and-stripes shirts or pants, and neither does our president. I think we had one supporter dress up in a shirt with a pattern like that last April, but I don't recall any pants. The only US-flag design piece of clothing I own is a bandanna, and I don't wear that much since bandannas are not really my style.

See you all at our next event!

~YZP


From: toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 October 2003 03:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
What?? You mean that the Palestinians aren't just inbred with the suicide bomber gene??

I'd bet the very same people who condem the Palestinians, would not hesitate for a second doing the same thing if it were their family, homes, lands, that were being threathened!!


Round and round we go....before the intifada then when the PA were actually involved in some sort of self governmant what was the excuse then for mass murder by Palestinian extremist suicide bombers?

And so Arafat rejects Taba and Camp david offers no other ideas other than to support suicide bombings. Are you saying then this is a legitimatee form of war/ Are you saying it is acceptable to murder young children and others on public trnasit and in resterants. I await some kind of clarification.

[ 26 October 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mick
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posted 26 October 2003 10:51 PM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
before the intifada then when the PA were actually involved in some sort of self governmant what was the excuse then for mass murder by Palestinian extremist suicide bombers?

You can try and site a news report from before the intifada that says otherwise, but suicide bombings by palestinians didn't start until roughly a month after the start of the 2nd Intifada.

That month the IDF repression killed hundreds and maimed thousands of palestinians.

This doesn't mean I support suicide bombings, I think they are horriffic and a bad strategy for the palestinain working class, only that they, in fact, started after the mass killings by the IDF.


From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
young zionist
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posted 02 November 2003 03:20 AM      Profile for young zionist        Edit/Delete Post
Actually, the first suicide bombing by the Palestinians was in 1994 - one year AFTER the beginning of the Oslo Peace Accords.

Terrorism against Jews in the region began in the late 1870's peaking in the 1920's and culminating with the Hebron Massacre of 1929 where an entire village of Jews were killed.

The PLO was established as a terrorist organization with the stated objective of destroying Israel in 1964 - THREE YEARS BEFORE the 'occupation' even began.

I don't know ehere you found information saying suicde bombing began after the 2nd Intifadah, but please - check your facts, it was 1994 and during a period of time that held the most high propseocts for peace between the two peoples.


From: toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mick
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posted 02 November 2003 03:25 AM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
Could you please cite your source?

[ 02 November 2003: Message edited by: Mick Black ]


From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
young zionist
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posted 02 November 2003 03:43 AM      Profile for young zionist        Edit/Delete Post
I will provide you with citations tomorrow afternoon - I am about to go to sleep, but I can provide you with specific information on attacks beginning in 1994, not including the attack my sister witnessed on a bus in Tel Aviv in 1994, and luckily survived unharmed.

I will provide a more detailed list with citations tomorrow or the next day by organizations such as Human Rights Watch, the United Nations, Amnetsy INternational, Israeli Ministry of Foriegn Affairs, as well as original news reports by CNN and any others I can find for you tomorrow, there are tonnes of 'em out there, I wish you'd look it up yourself, but alas, I will do it.

In the mean time, here is a list of suicide bombings beginning in 1994:

Apr 13, 1994 - Five people were killed in a suicide bombing attack on a bus in the central bus station of Hadera. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 19, 1994 - In a suicide bombing attack on the No. 5 bus on Dizengoff Street in Tel-Aviv, 21 Israelis and one Dutch national were killed.

Nov 11, 1994 - Three soldiers were killed at the Netzarim junction in the Gaza Strip when a Palestinian riding a bicycle detonated explosives strapped to his body. Islamic Jihad said it carried out the attack to avenge the car bomb killing of Islamic Jihad leader Hani Abed on Nov 2.

Jul 24, 1995 - Six civilians were killed in a suicide bomb attack on a bus in Ramat Gan.

Aug 21, 1995 - Three Israelis and one American were killed in a suicide bombing of a Jerusalem bus.

Feb 25, 1996 - In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 near the Central Bus Station in Jerusalem, 26 were killed (17 civilians and 9 soldiers). Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 25, 1996 - One Israeli was killed in an explosion set off by a suicide bomber at a hitchhiking post oustide Ashkelon. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 3, 1996 - In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 on Jaffa Road in Jerusalem, 19 were killed (16 civilians and 3 soldiers).

Mar 4, 1996 - Outside Dizengoff Center in Tel-Aviv, a suicide bomber detonated a 20-kilogram nail bomb, killing 13 (12 civilians and one soldier).

Mar 21, 1997 - Three people were killed when a suicide bomber detonated a bomb on the terrace of a Tel Aviv cafe. 48 people were wounded.

Jul 30, 1997 - 16 people were killed and 178 wounded in two consecutive suicide bombings in the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem.

Sep 4, 1997 - Five people were killed and 181 wounded in three suicide bombings on the Ben-Yehuda pedestrian mall in Jerusalem.

For 2 in the morning, that is enough for now, I assure you I will provide more examples along with detailed citations tomorrow or the next day.

Have a good night.


From: toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mick
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 November 2003 03:57 AM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
Ok, I checked my facts and I am indeed incorrect.

All the below is from Erased In A Moment: Suicide Bombing Attacks Against Israeli Civilians by Human Rights Watch

quote:
The first suicide bomb attack against civilians after the resumption of clashes between Palestinians and Israelis in September 2000 occurred at a bus stop in Netanya on January 1, 2001. Responsibility for the attack, which wounded twenty, was claimed by Hamas (an acronym for harakat al-muqawama al-islamiyya, or Islamic Resistance Movement).

They also claim that suicide bombing started in September 1993, though they don't cite a specific date.

quote:

Between September 1993 and the outbreak of the latest clashes between Palestinians and Israelis in late September 2000, Palestinian groups carried out fourteen suicide bombing attacks against Israeli civilians, mostly in 1996-97, killing more than 120 and wounding over 550. 12 Hamas said it committed most of the attacks; Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the others.

I stand corrected.

[ 02 November 2003: Message edited by: Mick Black ]


From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
young zionist
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posted 02 November 2003 04:00 AM      Profile for young zionist        Edit/Delete Post
Yes... except I told you I would show you a cite by Human Rights Watch, and it wasn't until after I showed you many examples of suicide bombings that you rechecked your facts.

If you don't want to acknowledge that you stand corrected by me, that is fine. But if I had never posted a message and suggested you go to Human Rights Watch, or any other source, you would never have learned the truth.

Thanks for being open minded enough to look into it.


From: toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mick
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 November 2003 04:09 AM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
Actually I checked and posted my inital reply in between my request for citation and your response. So I did find that on information on my own. In anycase it was petty to say 'but not by you' so I tried to edit my post before you saw it, too late I guess.
From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
young zionist
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posted 02 November 2003 04:10 AM      Profile for young zionist        Edit/Delete Post
No worries.
From: toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 November 2003 01:46 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
Doc, is it just the army recruiting or do you have a problem with campus recruiting in general?

Recruiting in general isn't something I've given a lot of thought to, although with increasing corporate influence at the university level it gives rise to questions about whether or not universities are under pressure to grant preferential access to some companies over others who might be interested in attracting students to work for them.

My main beef is with armed-forces recruiting, although as I said I tolerate Canadian Armed Forces recruiting because it is our own military, and they do need qualified personnel. That having been said, any other armed forces recruiting openly on campus would be most unacceptable in my mind.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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