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Author Topic: Israeli Hypocrisy?
lùx
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3497

posted 14 October 2003 04:58 AM      Profile for lùx        Edit/Delete Post
"United Nations officials reported that hundreds of Palestinians were left homeless after their homes were demolished during a three-day Israeli operation in the Rafah refugee camp in Gaza. Israel was searching for weapons smuggling tunnels.

Also Monday, former Israeli peace negotiators and Palestinian officials said they had reached agreement on a possible peace deal that could be the basis of eventual official negotiations." (Globe and Mail, October 13/03)

So while Israel was behind closed doors with Palestinians talking peace out of one corner of its official mouth, it was giving orders to it's troops out of the other corner to launch an attack on Palestinians behind the scenes smashing countless homes (CBC reporting 100 homes leaving 1200 homeless), and shooting up whatever and whomever, including killing 2 children. Why isn't this shameless display of hypocrisy bigger news?

If only the shoe were on the other foot and Israelis had to live under occupation for awhile... then we might see real progress -- and more massive news coverage.

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: lùx ]


From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 14 October 2003 02:50 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If only the shoe were on the other foot and Israelis had to live under occupation for awhile...

Check your history books lux.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 14 October 2003 03:05 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The shoe has been on the other foot. Unfortunately, having been oppressed does not make one immune from being oppressive.
Indeed, history shows that the opposite is often the case.

From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 14 October 2003 03:25 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Indeed, history shows that the opposite is often the case

Very true. You see this in society right down to the familial level, with abused children more likely to grow up to be abusers, etc.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 14 October 2003 04:28 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Very true. You see this in society right down to the familial level, with abused children more likely to grow up to be abusers, etc.

A very good point.

What do social workers or psychologists do with abusers such as this? Can their methods be adapted and attempted with Israel?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
lùx
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3497

posted 14 October 2003 04:38 PM      Profile for lùx        Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, but Israelis have never been under occupation. If you are making some distant connection to the Nazi occupation of much of Europe prior to the formation of the state of Israel in which many many people of all faiths and ethnicities were under occupation for a definite duration, and even though most of those who were occupied were not Jewish and either remained in Europe or moved to North America, and only some to Palestine (and as the median age of Jewish Israelis is 26, there would be very few Israelis alive today who would in fact have lived under occupation with the rest of Europe in the 40's) -- so to use that argument here is a huge stretch. To use that logic, someone living in Canada who's long-dead grandmother suffered under German occupation in Poland could justify oppressing someone of another race in Canada by saying "my grandmother suffered for 5 years under a regime which has nothing to do with my present victim, but I have an inherent right to abuse any person in Canada who is Chinese, or Pakistani (pick a nationality)...because Grandma suffered once". Nonsense.

"Israelis" have never suffered under occupation. Many of them have no idea what it means. Recent polls in Israel clearly show that few Israelis have much knowledge about what is actually happening a few miles away from them, in their name, in the occupied territories. While Palestinians are rationed to an insufficient amount of drinking water in sight of Jewish kids up the street in the illegal settlement who are running a hose on their Slip-n-Slide; While Palestinians are under curfew to stay in their homes for days on end regardless of a need for medical attention and have their infrastructure and markets bombed and bulldozed and have little means of obtaining the basics - Israelis struggle with deciding whether to buy that overpriced pair of shoes at Prada or the boots at Versace in Hamedina Square or which performance of the Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra they should attend. It's for that reason that groups like B'tselem exist (www.btselem.org), because Israelis in general are either ignorant of or apathetic about the plight of their very victims only miles away.

Nice try though worker_drone.

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: lùx ]


From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
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posted 14 October 2003 04:51 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes lux, but that "religious favouritism" is due to Western guilt about the Holocaust, as the product of modern Western industrial society. If you read pre-Holocaust literature, even that favourable to Jews tended to lump them in with Muslims (and "Byzantine" Middle-Eastern Christians) as representatives of an exotic, sometimes enticing Near East. Look at the description of Rebecca in Ivanhoe, for example. To say nothing of such "politely antisemitic" writers as Agatha Christie, or less polite ones such as Céline.

You can't ignore the impact of that sorry moment in Western history here - Edward Said said the same. Not that such a sorry history could possibly excuse the Israeli occupation of the territories or treatment of the Palestinians, of course not. As Mycroft said, victims often become abusers in turn.

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 14 October 2003 04:55 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lùx:

"Israelis" have never suffered under occupation. Many of them have no idea what it means. Recent polls in Israel clearly show that few Israelis have much knowledge about what is actually happening a few miles away from them, in their name, in the occupied territories.
[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: lùx ]


Please tell me exactly which polls you are referring to. Thanks.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 14 October 2003 04:55 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sorry, but Israelis have never been under occupation. If you are making some distant connection to the Nazi occupation of much of Europe in which many many people of all faiths and ethnicities were under occupation for a definite duration, and even though most of those who were occupied were not Jewish and either remained in Europe or moved to North America, and only some to Palestine (and as the median age of Jewish Israelis is 26, there would be very few Israelis alive today who would in fact have lived under occupation with the rest of Europe in the 40's) -- so that has no logical place in this discussion. To use that logic, someone living in Canada who's long-dead grandmother suffered under German occupation in Poland could say they have the right to exercise racism and violence against a person or family of a different race, in Canada, and attempt to justify it by saying "my grandmother suffered for 5 years under a regime which has nothing to do with my present victim, but I have an inherent right to abuse any person in Canada who is Chinese, or Pakistani (pick a nationality)...because she suffered once". Nonsense.

I didn't say Israel had ever been under occupation. I said Jews had been oppressed. The plain fact is that Israel was founded and for decades led by individuals who had been oppressed as Jews in Europe. That history of oppression is very much part of Israel's "founding myth" and, frankly, it's pointless to deny a continuity between survivors of the Holocaust and the founding of the state of Israel or between European anti-Semitism and Zionism. This does not justify the oppression of the Palestinians but it does mean that the shoe has indeed been on the "other foot".

To suggest that there's no continuity between Jewish history and Israel is ahistorical and completely abstract and without foundation in reality. Israel did not just fall out of the sky, it has a historical context and the Jews who live there do have a history predating 1948 (or whenever they arrived in Israel/Palestine).

Secondly, to suggest, as you did, that Jewish oppression was no worse than the oppression others felt under Nazism is absurd. In any case, I did not single out the Holocaust, I was referring to Jews having been oppressed in general for centuries.

Your argument is akin to those who say that since African Americans were never themselves slaves they shouldn't be affected by slavery. The fact is people are affected by not only their personal histories by by the history of their parents and their grandparents. You cannot grow people in a hydroponic lab, they develop in a cultural and historical context.

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
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posted 14 October 2003 05:08 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Please tell me exactly which polls you are referring to. Thanks.
While your waiting for lux to get back to you. Why don't you go back to other threads where you have been challenged to come up with information or proof. Your so evasive.... hiding in other forums.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 14 October 2003 05:09 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Very nicely put Mycroft.

quote:
What do social workers or psychologists do with abusers such as this? Can their methods be adapted and attempted with Israel?

What they don't do is attempt to isolate a single individual or a specific incident as the source of all the patient's problems. In other words, they avoid trying to finger point and try to get a handle on the bigger picture.

Why start at Israel? Why not go back a generation to look at the psychological harm inflicted on the Arab states through European colonialism and their subsequent oppression of their non-Arab populations (i.e. Kurdish and Jewish minorities) post independence?


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 14 October 2003 05:52 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm going to move this to the Middle East forum, where I can ignore it.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 14 October 2003 07:55 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think there is a good argment to be made that the history of the Jews is part an pacel of present day Israel . . . I personally can't see how it could be otherwise . . . but what really confuses me is how "right wingers" can use the history of the Jews can be used to justify special status for Israel (not that I disagree with some special status for an historically oppressed group,) but the same right wingers want to ignore the same history of oppression when it comes to Aboriginals, Blacks, Women, etc.

If right wingers were theleast bit consistant, then either this Aboriginal self government issues would be all settled by now, or Israel would be granted "equal status" and left to it's "natural and inevitable death of equality"!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 October 2003 08:14 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by audra estrones:
I'm going to move this to the Middle East forum, where I can ignore it.



From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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