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Author Topic: An abiding faith in force
majorvictory
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Babbler # 2878

posted 10 October 2003 02:04 AM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel's policy in the conflict with the Palestinians can be summed up in 10 words: What doesn't work with force will work with more force.

quote:
At the beginning of the year, there was still belief at the top of the security and political echelons that the decision would be made
otherwise, in the wake of the American assault on
Iraq or an upheaval in the Palestinian leadership.
But those hopes were dashed and Israel is back to
its old belief that military force will defeat the
Arabs.

For three years, Israel has been seeking - without finding - the pressure point that will
break the Palestinians, and force them to surrender and give up their national ambitions. The results have been meager. Terror goes on,
and no way has been found yet to deter suicide terrorists and those who send them, or to force the Palestinian Authority to "fight the terrorist
infrastructures." The public is told to hold
tight, to absorb the shocking attacks and
economic suffocation, and to wait for the other
side to blink first.

Leading the escalation is Defense Minister Shaul
Mofaz, who has become the dominant minister in
the government, the prime initiator and
lobbyist for the security and political moves.
The objective of his war is to persuade the
Palestinians that Israel will not bend under
terror. If they show signs of dealing with the
terror infrastructure, Israel will respond with
dialogue based on the road map and the Bush
vision; but until then, Israel will rely on
force to deal with terror.

In close cooperation with Chief of Staff Moshe
Ya'alon, Mofaz has broadened the combat
envelope. It began with the assassination
operations against Hamas leaders, continued
with the demand to expel or kill Arafat, then
the decision about the zigzagging fence and
enclaves in the West Bank, and, most recently,
the bombing of the terrorist base in Syria. The
prime minister, who avoids any initiative of
his own, is an enthusiastic supporter of
defense establishment proposals and makes sure
there is American support. The government is
very weak when it comes up with other policy
alternatives, except perhaps for Minister
Avigdor Lieberman, who calls for all-out war.
Non-violent solutions are not even raised, let
alone discussed.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 14 October 2003 11:44 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Reminds me of the poor tradesmans motto . . . "If it doesn't fit, don't force it . . . use a bigger hammer!"
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 October 2003 12:57 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Quite.

The war is not going as planned in Palestine, so rather than seeking peace, the Likudniks are trying to escalate the war to include Syria, Iran and Lebanon.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory
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posted 21 October 2003 12:36 AM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli Strikes in Gaza Kill 9, Wound 100

quote:

By IBRAHIM BARZAK

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Israeli warplanes and helicopters hit Palestinian targets in five separate strikes Monday, a day of intense air assaults that killed nine people and reportedly wounded more than 100 others, including four children who had just been let out of school for the day.

The airstrikes came a day after Palestinian militants fired eight homemade rockets from Gaza into Israel and Palestinian gunmen ambushed an Israeli patrol in the West Bank, killing three Israeli soldiers.

The violent Islamic movements, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, threatened revenge for Monday's airstrikes, and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon pledged more raids, further clouding Mideast peace efforts.

``The Israeli military will continue to act to foil terror attacks, capture murderers and liquidate terror organizations,'' Sharon said in a speech to parliament.

Later Monday, the helicopters targeted a car in the Nusseirat refugee camp in central Gaza after nightfall, killing six people and wounding 70, witnesses and Palestinian officials said.

Residents said one of the dead was a doctor who was treating victims when a second missile struck. The identity of the other victims was not immediately known, and the military did not comment.

The missiles struck the main street of the refugee camp, destroying the car. Hundreds of camp residents carried charred pieces of the vehicle aloft and chanted, ``Revenge, revenge.''

In Gaza City, Israeli helicopters fired missiles at a building in the Shajaiyeh neighborhood, the same structure that was hit in an earlier air strike Monday, residents said. Eleven people were wounded, they said. The military did not comment.

The first three strikes destroyed two weapons labs and warehouses of Hamas, the military said. Four children and a 70-year-old woman were among 23 wounded. Two missiles exploded on a street crowded with schoolchildren.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
lùx
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posted 21 October 2003 05:05 AM      Profile for lùx        Edit/Delete Post
Obviously Israel has only one "end" goal in mind: the full expansion of Israel into the West Bank and Gaza.... as a starter. All validated in the US by some false facade of a "war on terror". And to achieve that (to put a reverse spin on a terribly worn-out yet classic cliche from Netanyahu and many other Israeli officials) they will not stop until "Israel has pushed every Arab into the sea". Then, maybe, they'll settle down. Maybe. Of course then Lebanon would get marked for occupation.

[ 21 October 2003: Message edited by: lùx ]


From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 21 October 2003 05:11 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by majorvictory:
Israeli Strikes in Gaza Kill 9, Wound 100


The stat that isn't often mentioned in these reports, is that between bombs, missiles and bulldozers, several HUNDRED (some estimates put it at a thousand) Palestinians are now homeless.
Can you say pogrom?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory
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posted 22 October 2003 02:37 AM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Palestinian doctor killed treating air strike wounded

quote:
October 21, 2003 - 12:51PM

Doctor Zain Shahin's first reaction to the Israeli air strike today near the clinic where he worked was to rush out to treat the wounded. It cost him his life.

Witnesses said the Palestinian doctor rushed to help the wounded lying around a car struck by a missile.

But he himself was hit by shrapnel when a second missile slammed into a crowd of people who had also come to see who they could save.

"Doctor Zain rushed to help, and he paid with his life trying to save the lives of others," store owner Hisham Mohammad told Reuters.

"He treated a few people on the ground before he ... fell among them."

Medical officials said at least seven people, all civilians, were killed and about 70 wounded in the air strike, one of five carried out by Israel in the Gaza Strip today.

Shahin, 29, was married to a Russian and had two children.

Women wept as rescue workers carried the wounded to hospital while men chanted Allahu Akbar (God is greatest).

Thousands of protesters in the Nusseirat refugee camp, a stronghold for Islamic militants, called for revenge and urged Prime Minister Ahmed Qurie to abandon efforts to make peace with Israel.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 22 October 2003 04:52 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"But he himself was hit by shrapnel when a second missile slammed into a crowd of people who had also come to see who they could save."

And this is different from a terrorist attack in Tel Aviv how?

Perhaps one of our friendly neighbourhood Israeli apologists would like to explain...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 22 October 2003 10:23 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Terrorism. pure and simple . . . the only difference is the technology used to committ the terrorist act!!

The first missile they can argue that it was directed at a "suspected terrorist" (not that doing so in a crowded street with the known result of killing innicent civilians is really justified, but somehow in their own minds they seem to be able to do so,) but how do they justify the second missile?? They cannot say that they never expected to have people running to the scene to help the wounded . . . it's not like this is the first time they've ever done this form of "directed murderfying" and didn't know what to expect!!

The "murdering Israeli button pushing homicide terrorists" who are responsible for this dispicible act need to be arrested, put on trial and if found guilty punished severly . . . or maybe they should be targeted for "directed murderfying" by the UN if the Israeli authorities will do nothing??


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory
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posted 28 October 2003 12:26 AM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Death of a town

quote:
With ruthless efficiency, the Israeli army has been crushing and rocketing the Palestinian refugee town of Rafah in a manner which rivals the destruction of Jenin last year. But it is all in the name of stopping terrorism so the international community has remained silent. Chris McGreal reports

Monday October 27, 2003
The Guardian

The moment al-Brazil plunged into darkness, Amjad Alweda knew what was coming. He grabbed his wife and three young children and bundled them down a pitch-black stairwell to a room at the back of their small block of flats. And then he stopped and listened.

The sound of the tanks echoes along the streets around here so it seems they are coming from every direction at once and you never know which way to run," says the 32-year-old Palestinian man.

Minutes later an engine roared and tons of steel - he didn't wait to discover whether it was a tank or a bulldozer - came crashing into the front of Alweda's computer shop. He squeezed his children through a back window and told them to run as the clanking monster tore at his livelihood.

"The soldiers were calling over the megaphones for everybody to leave their houses but there was no chance for people to get out before they started shooting from the tanks. It was completely dark and there were bullets flying around," he says. "Usually, we try and stay in the house when the fighting starts but we knew the army had been everywhere else so it must be our turn."

For two weeks now, the Israeli army has been grinding its way through Rafah refugee camp in the southern tip of the Gaza strip. "Operation Root Canal" is ostensibly aimed at destroying some of the dozens of tunnels the military says are used for smuggling weapons under the border with Egypt.

As about 65 tanks, armoured vehicles and mammoth armour-plated bulldozers rolled into Rafah, the Israeli army said it had intelligence that surface-to-air missiles were being hauled through the tunnels. But there was no sign of them as dozens of Palestinians attempted to exact some kind of price for the attack with pistols, AK-47s and homemade hand grenades. By the time the Israelis withdrew to the fringes of the camp where the tanks and bulldozers are perpetually at work, 18 Palestinians were dead, including three children under 15 years old, and more than 120 were wounded.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 October 2003 12:32 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Operation Root Canal", indeed. *ironic snicker*

Looks like this "root canal" is about as fun for the Palestinian-Arabs as a dental root canal is for the average patient (that is to say, not very).


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory
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Babbler # 2878

posted 28 October 2003 01:47 AM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Get out of Gaza

quote:
The terrorist attack early on Friday morning at Netzarim, which ended in the deaths of three soldiers, two of them women, and the wounding of two others, makes tangible the absurdity of Israel continuing to hold on to the Gaza Strip. It would be an error to examine the incident merely in the light of an operational mishap or mistaken considerations by the commanders and to try to learn lessons from it regarding the local deployment of the Israel Defense Forces. This is a national failure and all Israeli governments since 1967 are party to it, as is the society of this country, which gave them backing.

The Gaza Strip was a tract of land that was left in Egyptian hands after the War of Independence. It fell into Israeli hands after the Six-Day War, together with its hundreds of thousands of
residents, most of them Palestinian refugees. The
Gaza Strip had no sentimental value in the Israeli national ethos, as did the West Bank; nevertheless, the governments headed by the Labor Party and, later, those of the Likud, were foolish enough to covet it and establish settlements upon it, and in this way to create a commitment to it. This was an untenable settlement enterprise that cost a fortune, was in no way useful to the country's development, caused grievous suffering to the Palestinian population, placed a heavy security burden on the IDF and presented Israel as a state that inflicts injustice.



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EMGEE
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posted 29 October 2003 05:49 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Obviously Israel has only one "end" goal in mind: the full expansion of Israel into the West Bank and Gaza.... as a starter.

Hey lux, IF Israel clearly had this in mind why would they keep offering, publicly, almost all of the West Bank and all of Gaza in exchange for peace?


I'm not taking sides on this, I just keep hearing the same stuff over and over again in the newspapers and I don't know why such a small problem in such a small area of the world gives the rest of the world so many headaches!!!


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 29 October 2003 05:57 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey lux, IF Israel clearly had this in mind why would they keep offering, publicly, almost all of the West Bank and all of Gaza in exchange for peace?

You don't really believe that do you? At any rate, if Israel didn't have that in mind, why don't they just get out of the illegally occupied land like the UN has asked them repeatedly to do? Surely this would be a greater step towards peace, yes?


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 29 October 2003 06:05 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Majorvictory, IF that is the case then why the heck dosen't Israel just give Gaza back to the Egyptians and let THEM deal with the population??? Why can't the Israelis just get the heck out of Gaza? They've already got a wall around the area to keep them "safe"!!!!
From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 29 October 2003 06:16 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
why don't they just get out of the illegally occupied land like the UN has asked them repeatedly to do?

Thanks evenflow, that's my problem... I just don't want to take sides so I look at the situation whereby I see the territory as one in dispute since no one can point to the actual "owners" of the land. I think that those Jews have as muchright to be in the middle east as the muslims or christians. I don't look at Israel as illeagally occupying the land because no one has yet defined the legality of either sides' claims. what I see is that without a shadow of a doubt Jews were there in biblical times and Jews are there now. Jews won the land in the "peace process" with Jordan and Egypt. Jews can't absorb that many Arabs into their democracy becaus the Arabs would outvote the Jews within only a few years. Thje palestinians' worst enemies are those that are supposedly backing them only as fuel fore their fires...As in let's kill every Jew to the last drop of our brave palestinian brothers' blood.


I think that we would be better off looking at this situation as both sides being as right AND as wrong as the others'.

BUT, I just can never see myself being persuaded that blowing up innocent men women and children in schools and restaurants is morally equivalent to collateral damage done to a group of stone throwing children who's only purpose is to look good for the cameras and hide the adult snipers behind themas a shield against Israeli retaliation.

Using children to die for publicity is just not the "western" thing to do!!!!!


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 30 October 2003 04:05 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BUT, I just can never see myself being persuaded that blowing up innocent men women and children in schools and restaurants is morally equivalent to collateral damage done to a group of stone throwing children who's only purpose is to look good for the cameras and hide the adult snipers behind themas a shield against Israeli retaliation.

Using children to die for publicity is just not the "western" thing to do!!!!!


I don't understand why you continue to write the word Jews with a capital and Muslims, Christians and anything Palestinian without a capital. At any rate, I do agree that both sides have positives and negatives. However, people are murdered on both sides regularly. Just because Israel has advanced technology and weapons doesn't make the mass deaths caused by them any less vile than suicide bombings, in my opinion. Call it a surgical strike if you want, but I know there is nothing "surgical" about bombs going off in populated areas with shrapnel flying everywhere.

As for the "western thing to do", perhaps you haven't been paying close enough attention lately.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 30 October 2003 04:45 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Evenflow, I always capitalize everything except "Palestine(ian)" and now I even Capitalize that. I've explained that and I was not willing to fight over it so capitalized it is!

I'm standing in the middle here (which I now see is the worst place to be!) but I gotta tell you that I laugh each time I hear a comparison made between Palestinian suicide bombers that purposefully attack and kill women and children with bombs made as lethal as possible with shrapnel and using strategy like placing delayed timing devices to explode on the doctors and the people trying to save the lives of those innocent victims and the Israeli use of Apache helicopters and missiles.

Do you have any idea how much damage the Israelis could do to a Palestinian slum IF they chose to wage the battles like those suicide lunatics do??? They could level a town in a matter of minutes killing tens of thousands.

They don't only because they choose not to! They are obviously NOT the side that wants to erradicate the "other side". I'm tired of hearing all the boo hoos from those that see the Palestinians as underdogs. They in fact have the upper edge because they seem to not care who or how many they kill just as long as they kill as many as possible

I wonder what would happen if Israel really gets pissed off and decides to take of it's gloves, stop playing by Hoyle, and gets as down and dirty about just trying to copy the Palestinian concept of killing as many as possible.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 30 October 2003 05:31 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Evenflow, I always capitalize everything except "Palestine(ian)" and now I even Capitalize that. I've explained that and I was not willing to fight over it so capitalized it is!

Here's a quote from one of your most recent posts:

quote:
I just don't want to take sides so I look at the situation whereby I see the territory as one in dispute since no one can point to the actual "owners" of the land. I think that those Jews have as muchright to be in the middle east as the muslims or christians.


quote:
Do you have any idea how much damage the Israelis could do to a Palestinian slum IF they chose to wage the battles like those suicide lunatics do???

I don't have to imagine it, I get to see the edited, less revolting parts of it on CNN regularly.

quote:
I'm tired of hearing all the boo hoos from those that see the Palestinians as underdogs.

What do you think this is, a hockey game? People are dying over there.

quote:
I wonder what would happen if Israel really gets pissed off and decides to take of it's gloves, stop playing by Hoyle, and gets as down and dirty about just trying to copy the Palestinian concept of killing as many as possible.

If that's what Israel calls 'playing by the rules' and 'protecting lives', I hope we never see that scenario you just described.

Incidentally, you're not in the middle on this issue, just so you're aware. Furthermore I think there's a difference between you asking other babblers for proof and you not reading the material they post for you, which would be the considerate and ultimately constructive thing to do. I'm going to let you go now, good luck out there.

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: evenflow ]


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 30 October 2003 05:51 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't have to imagine it, I get to see the edited, less revolting parts of it on CNN regularly.

Let's get serious here, IF Israel cared as little about collaterol damage as the Palestinian bombers did, they could very easily wipe entire cities out of existence instead of surgically striking for the least amount of damage possible. Palestinian bombers just want to kill anything and everything (even Israeli Arab children!) and they do so whenever they can get through Israel's defences.

I don't think that anyone here is looking at the reality on the ground.


quote:
What do you think this is, a hockey game? People are dying over there.


Yes people are dying there and that is why fighting should be considered only as a last resort. It is obvious hat both side see this fighting as a last resort and so people are dying on both sides.

The easy fact is that these "Palestinians" are living in a land that by legal circumstance is ruled by a people that the Palestinians don't want as their governing power.

But the land legitimately belongs to Israel who's legitimate desire is to keep their country in a Jewish majority. There are plenty of "Palestinians" and other peoples who have lived in Saudi Arabia or other Arab countries and they could never be considered citizens of those countries no matter how long they lived and worked there simply because it is the stated policy of each of those countries to NOT take in non-Saudis etc.

I think that the problem is that we are trying to look at a different world than ours through our "biased" eyes. It dosent work because it loses way too much in the translation.

quote:
If that's what Israel calls 'playing by the rules' and 'protecting lives', I hope we never see that scenario you just described.


My father used to hit me when I was a child. He'd spank my behind with his open hand. I now know that IF he really wanted to do damage to me he could easily have. He didn't want to put an end to my life, only an end to my errant ways.

Israel is doing a lot worse than a slap on the ass to the "Palestinians" but then again the Palestinians are doing a heck of a lot worse to the Israelis than I ever did to my father!!!!

The analogy is not very far off from the reality.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 30 October 2003 06:37 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think that those Jews have as muchright to be in the middle east as the muslims or christians. I don't look at Israel as illeagally occupying the land because no one has yet defined the legality of either sides' claims. what I see is that without a shadow of a doubt Jews were there in biblical times and Jews are there now. Jews won the land in the "peace process" with Jordan and Egypt. Jews can't absorb that many Arabs into their democracy becaus the Arabs would outvote the Jews within only a few years.

So you think an apartheid state is the way to go? So the best thing for Israel to do is...push all the Arabs off the land? Or should they just kill them? You've demonstrated most clearly here that you are NOT in the middle. The constant reminders that Israel could commit genocide if it wanted to (thanks, the medal's in the mail) are unnecessary, believe me.

quote:

My father used to hit me when I was a child. He'd spank my behind with his open hand. I now know that IF he really wanted to do damage to me he could easily have. He didn't want to put an end to my life, only an end to my errant ways.

Israel is doing a lot worse than a slap on the ass to the "Palestinians" but then again the Palestinians are doing a heck of a lot worse to the Israelis than I ever did to my father!!!!

The analogy is not very far off from the reality.


So Palestinians are children?

Everyone sing along with me: Take up the white man's burden...

Your rationalizations are disgusting.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 30 October 2003 06:47 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Joe Smith, you twist everything and damn you're good at it!!!!

Apartheid is the system of the majority of countries around the world. Just because we in Canada hate it, it dosen't make us right. It's a government policy that keeps the country as stable as possible. Look at all the counties that have dualistic (rather than pluralistic) citizenry... always fighting about who is right and who is wrong. Saudi Arabia would never allow a non-Saudi citizenship. Is that right? No from a Canadian perspective but who are we to judge the correctness of another country? If that's what the people of that country want why should we be able to stop them, or try to stop them.

Maybe, just maybe WE are the ones who are wrong! When was the last time you saw a public uprising in Saudi Arabia????


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 30 October 2003 06:55 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Joe Smith, you twist everything and damn you're good at it!!!!

Ever considered that maybe you just don't write clearly? Or that your conclusions are not rational?

Saudi Arabia is a monarchy. There are no uprisings because people who rise up will be slaughtered.

People don't protest the government. That doesn't mean it is the government people want. There are no protests in North Korea either, I'll wager, but that doesn't mean people aren't starving to death.

[ 30 October 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 30 October 2003 07:03 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who the hell hell is Joe Smith. Smith, what did you get up to on your hiatus.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 30 October 2003 07:29 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess I had a sex change, or maybe I just drank a lot of coffee.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 30 October 2003 07:41 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Israel's policy in the conflict with the Palestinians can be summed up in 10 words: What doesn't work with force will work with more force.

The Palestinians policy in the conflict with the Israelis can be summed up in 10 words: What doesn't work with force will work with more force.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 31 October 2003 12:02 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Israel's policy in the conflict with the Palestinians can be summed up in 10 words: What doesn't work with force will work with more force.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Palestinians policy in the conflict with the Israelis can be summed up in 10 words: What doesn't work with force will work with more force.


Incorrect. While it is the Israeli government who authorize military force, the force from the Palestinian side is advocated by extremists on that side, and not the Palestinian leadership.

That being said, I agree that the violence is unending and all too brutal from both sides.

The next logical place to look for a solution would be to find out who is violating national law and defying countless UN resolutions by being there in the first place.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
EMGEE
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posted 31 October 2003 02:23 PM      Profile for EMGEE     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the force from the Palestinian side is advocated by extremists on that side, and not the Palestinian leadership.


hahahahahahahhhahahahahahah, no need for a lobotomy for you!!! How much did yours cost???? THAT is the single most ridiculous staement I've yet to read. Even my friends who are staunchly in favour of Arafat see him behind each and every thing that happens in that territory. Talk about idiotic!!!!!!


But then you go on to say:

quote:
The next logical place to look for a solution would be to find out who is violating national law and defying countless UN resolutions by being there in the first place.

And for that I owe you a debt of gratitude because you have summed up my whole problem with this.... who is legitametly incharge of that territory???? It seem s obvious that you are reffering to Israel as the errant party and you like to continue to think that way hence the suggestion that the UN should handle the debate but honestly (or do have any idea what honesty really is, as opposed to the bull you tend to spew forth here?) do you really believe that the United(against Israel)Nations is the proper forum?

Why can't we discuss that matter here????


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 31 October 2003 02:50 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
There is no reasoning with the Israel/Jew haters.
Haven't you figured that out yet?

From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 31 October 2003 02:52 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is no reasoning with the Israel/Jew haters.
Haven't you figured that out yet?

Who exactly are you refering to?


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4098

posted 31 October 2003 02:54 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:
There is no reasoning with the Israel/Jew haters.

You have a little problem with singular and plural in that sentence there, Earthshadow. Allow me to assist:

There is no reasoning, and there are no Israel/Jew haters, in this thread.

Hope that helps! Though I think you're a little harsh here, as I think one could spy some reasoning here and there.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 31 October 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is no reasoning with the Israel/Jew haters.
Haven't you figured that out yet?

You're an idiot. That's all I wanted to say, and I won't be justifying that stance because you are not worth it, you fetid waste of a human being.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 31 October 2003 06:07 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Keep whining and howling, you're good at it.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 31 October 2003 06:25 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This week, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon announced plans for building yet another apartheid wall or "buffer zone" in the Jordan Valley. The new wall, a supplement to the existing wall under construction, will effectively complete the encirclement of the West Bank, rendering it the largest prison in the world.

The Palestinian Authority, utterly frustrated by Israel's unbridled insolence and what is widely perceived as American connivance with the Sharon government, has condemned plans to extend the apartheid wall into the Jordan Valley.

"This shows that the apartheid wall is not for security reasons. They just want to grab as much Palestinian land as possible and control the water resources," PA official Saeb Erekat said.

According to Israeli peace activists, the real strategic goal lying behind the wall is even more ambitious -- to make the daily life for Palestinians so unbearable to compel many to flee their country. But to where?

"He is simply caging the Palestinians as one would cage animals, and he thinks he is getting a green light for that from the Bush administration," a Peace Now official said.


Killing the two-state solution


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 31 October 2003 06:37 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Arafat didn't want a two state solution.
He launched the intifada instead, remember? But don't let that stop the propaganda parade.

From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 31 October 2003 06:49 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:
Arafat didn't want a two state solution.
He launched the intifada instead, remember? But don't let that stop the propaganda parade.

We wouldn't think of depriving you of your job as Marshall. You look so nice up there with your pom-hat and staff...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 31 October 2003 06:54 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Well Courage, I won't be following you over the cliff.

Suicide bombing as a negotiating tactic, you should give it a thought...

Oh gee, too bad about the wall.


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 31 October 2003 06:55 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Parade Marshall, Pom-poms, staff... is earthshadow Joe Clark?
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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Babbler # 3980

posted 31 October 2003 06:56 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cold under your bridge tonight?
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 31 October 2003 07:00 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Nah, you left the spot warm.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 31 October 2003 07:03 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Heywood, do I get a boytoy with that?
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 31 October 2003 07:10 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ask Newbie
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 31 October 2003 07:14 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:

Oh gee, too bad about the wall.

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize to Bill O'Reilly.

(Now there's something I never thought I'd say.)


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 31 October 2003 07:31 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Make sure you grovel when you do!
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 31 October 2003 08:57 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:
There is no reasoning with the Israel/Jew haters.
Haven't you figured that out yet?

I take rather strong exception to this statement. Show me where I have ever proven myself to be an "Israel/Jew hater".

If you can't back up your statement, then I suggest you withdraw it and apologize.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 31 October 2003 09:08 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Don't take it personally.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 31 October 2003 09:29 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Keep whining and howling, you're good at it.

Will do. And you can keep smearing and hate-mongering, which is obviously where your talents lie.

How useful for the state of Israel to have a defender like you, ready to leap out of the shadows and cry "jew-hater" every time somebody criticises their actions. How convenient to be the only nation in the world immune to criticism, by virtue of the race card that you play so eagerly. It's especially handy when the nation has this annoying ethnic group that, despite having resided on the land for thousands of years, just cannot be tolerated as a presence in the plot of land that Zionists claim for their own. Thank goodness that no matter how they abuse this group, they will never be in the wrong because they're Jewish.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 31 October 2003 09:36 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
You're still good at it.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 31 October 2003 09:50 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Or, as Courage would have it, why this emphasis on ethnie?
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 31 October 2003 10:36 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
EarthShadow, either back up your statement that indirectly alleges that I am an "Israel/Jew hater", or withdraw it and apologize for your gross overgeneralization.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 31 October 2003 10:55 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
DrConway, when your seat on the Central Committee is assured, and the trucks and trains are rolling towards the gulag, you may then be in a position to ensure that I comply with your demands.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 01 November 2003 02:09 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think you misunderstand the situation. Your statement is very likely against the acceptable use policy of this message board.

quote:
You agree to avoid personal insults, attacks and mischievous antagonism (otherwise known as trolling).

You may view this here if you did not sufficiently consider it when you first joined up.

You have, in effect, personally attacked, via your broadside, people who are generally opposed to the Israeli government's actions by tarring them as "Israel/Jew haters" - in effect, labelling people as anti-Semites with no justification thereof.

This accusation is of sufficient import to ask you to substantiate that accusation or withdraw it.

I don't want to bother audra again this week, but I will be dropping her a note about this thread if I have to.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2878

posted 01 November 2003 02:39 AM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
War `beast' goes high-tech: Israel deploying remote-control bulldozers Machines used to destroy homes

quote:
JERUSALEM—The giant Caterpillar bulldozer, used by the Israeli military to destroy Palestinian homes in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, now comes with a controversial new feature: remote control.

Israel says its remote-control technology will lower risks to soldiers. But Palestinians fear it will lead to more frequent raids using the machines and make the three-year Mideast conflict even bloodier.

The remote-controlled D-9 bulldozer and a remote-control version of the Humvee, equipped with machine guns, were developed by the Israeli army and the Technion Institute of Technology. Both machines are U.S.-made, with Israeli modifications. They are expected to go into service in the next few weeks.

The army refused to comment or reveal further details about the new equipment.

Israel has been a pioneer in unmanned weapons systems for nearly three decades, developing one of the first remote-controlled planes and more recently creating machine guns and grenade launchers that can be fired from afar. The weapons are equipped with cameras, so their operators can see what they are doing.

Describing a day of field trials, a Technion statement quoted an Israeli army officer as asserting the thousands of dollars invested in each machine would save lives. "Today the bulldozer drivers are exposed to great danger when they knock down buildings that have militants hiding in them," the statement quoted the officer as saying.

But Palestinian cabinet minister Saeb Erekat warned the unmanned machines would lead to even more Palestinian deaths. "The whole idea is despicable," he said. "If an unmanned bulldozer is used, human life is in much greater danger."



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 01 November 2003 12:35 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For those who often ask why babblers pay such a great amount of attention to the Middle East, this article might help to address your question:

Israel and US labelled biggest threats to World peace

quote:
Over half of Europeans think that Israel now presents the biggest threat to world peace according to a controversial poll requested by the European Commission.

According to the same survey, Europeans believe the United States contributes the most to world instability along with Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and North Korea.



From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 November 2003 02:04 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
According to El Pais, a massive 59 percent of Europeans said they believed that Israel is the biggest obstacle to world peace.

These would be the same Europeans whose history of antisemitism is abominable? Just asking.

Edited to add: I also find it rather telling when the same article appears bothe here and on websites like that of antisemite David Irving.

For the record, you can see that Irving wasted no time in ensuring that the same article Al has posted here is on his site for all his supporters to see.

Irving posts same article

Please dont suggest that I am calling anyone anything. However we surely must pause when this occurs, no?

[ 01 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]

[ 01 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 November 2003 02:23 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nope. Most Europeans seeing "Israel" as an obstacle to world peace are using "Israel" as a shortcut for "the intransigent government now in power in Israel". I'd say that sentiment actually tends to be stronger among the left, long active in anti-racist movements including movements to root out the remains of antisemitism. As for the Nazi past, the Nazis were every bit as vociferous against the left and the labour movement as against the Jews, and usually confused the two groups.

There is an exception; a certain type of right-wing populism (such as that of the late Jürgen Möllemann) that is indeed anti-Israeli for reasons connected to blaming "the Jooze". But it is very much in the minority, and such racists and anti-semites as Jean-Marie Le Pen support Sharon because he is seen as a "strongman".

As for skinheads and other outright neo-Nazis, they utterly hate both Jews and Arabs, so it is just a question of which group of "semites" they happen to be singling out at the time.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 01 November 2003 02:35 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
But Mishei, that was 60 years ago. Ancient history. Europeans are now a kind and gentle people where different cultures and ethnicities live in harmony. We need to focus on Israeli atrocities that were committed 59 years ago.

Frankly your broadside accusation of Europeans as being antisemites, and by implication, those of European descent, is a slander against the entire board. I demand you apologize.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 01 November 2003 02:35 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please dont suggest that I am calling anyone anything. However we surely must pause when this occurs, no?

Mishei.

Do you remember how I thanked you for your help with some questions yesterday? The spirit of peace? Remember?

I now regret ever having reached out with anything approaching respect for you.

It likely won't ever happen again.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 01 November 2003 02:47 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
These would be the same Europeans whose history of antisemitism is abominable? Just asking.

You mean hauling out anecdotal cases of synagogue attacks and erroneously projecting that into a trend? Puh-leeze.

quote:
Edited to add: I also find it rather telling when the same article appears bothe here and on websites like that of antisemite David Irving.

For the record, you can see that Irving wasted no time in ensuring that the same article Al has posted here is on his site for all his supporters to see.

Please dont suggest that I am calling anyone anything. However we surely must pause when this occurs, no?


Oh, balls!

You know and I know that that idiot Irving will use any news article he thinks buttresses his case, just like you always pull out news articles and opinion pieces that buttress YOUR case.

Does that mean Irving has a case? Give. me. a. break. Attaching any credibility to what that moron thinks is giving too much air-time to his brain cells or lack of such.

I also take exception to your low-level drive-by smear job by attempting to link David Irving with Al Q.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 01 November 2003 02:49 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Please dont suggest that I am calling anyone anything. However we surely must pause when this occurs, no?

No. But I'll be happy to nominate you for the Joseph McCarthy Smarmy Insinuation of the Week Award.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 November 2003 02:49 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I posted a news item (headline news in the German press) about a REAL anti-semite, who is also an anti-gay bigot, for good measure.

I don't harbour any covert antisemitic feelings that influence my criticism of the Sharon government, the Wall, or the occupation. (My personal pet hate is Berlusconi ). I doubt many other babblers do either. Antisemites and other racist creeps never last long on the boards.

As for the repulsive David Irving, he'd use anything that would seem to shore up his edifice of hatred. You'll find many people quoted on his and related sites that have nothing but contempt and loathing for such a racist fraud.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 November 2003 05:22 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Mishei.

Do you remember how I thanked you for your help with some questions yesterday? The spirit of peace? Remember?

I now regret ever having reached out with anything approaching respect for you.

It likely won't ever happen again.


And that's suppose to make me what...?

And Slim, I insinuated nothing other than what you insinuate in your own head. My point is that where Israel is concerned there appears to be a synthesis of thought at times between the left and the extreme right. Yes the agendas are much different no question but the feeling appears to be the same.

Edited to add: Just found the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's response to this scurrilous poll. Thought you might want to see it.

SWC on EU poll

[ 01 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 01 November 2003 05:39 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For the record, you can see that Irving wasted no time in ensuring that the same article Al has posted here is on his site for all his supporters to see.

What the heck are you doing browsing David Irving's site? I think that you should take a deep, long look at yourself when you frequent the site of an abomination such as Irving. Shame on you, Mishei.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 November 2003 05:43 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If all goes well (knock wood) I'll be attending the European Social Forum in Paris very soon. I guess I'll have to get in touch with my inner anti-semite.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 01 November 2003 07:06 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Courage, lagatta.

quote:
And that's suppose to make me what...?

Never mind, Mish. You have a history of clearly not caring whether you earn anyone's respect around here.

[ 01 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 November 2003 07:14 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Earth Shadow, consider this a warning regarding your "Jew hater" comment directed towards babblers. You're doing nothing but disrupting and being rude and throwing the thread off track.

Consider it your LAST warning while you're at it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 November 2003 07:20 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Edited to add: I also find it rather telling when the same article appears bothe here and on websites like that of antisemite David Irving.

For the record, you can see that Irving wasted no time in ensuring that the same article Al has posted here is on his site for all his supporters to see.

Please dont suggest that I am calling anyone anything. However we surely must pause when this occurs, no?


I love this. First you say that it's "telling" that al-Q posts something that has also been posted by Irving. Then you say that you're not suggesting anything. Then you say that we should pause when this happens.

Give me a break. Yes, Mishei, you ARE suggesting something. You are implying that al-Q is of the same ilk as David Irving when you say that it is "telling". I'm really sick of these kind of cowardly, backhanded smears. KNOCK IT OFF.

And just so you know, if you try to turn this into a 40 post debate into whether or not you were implying anything, I will NOT be participating.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 01 November 2003 07:40 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, my post followed emgee's and referenced his comments on the UN.
There are many Jew haters at the UN.

The comment was not directed at babblers.
I told DrConway not to take it personally.

Given the nature of the thread, I don't think it was disruptive.

Edited to add:

As for rudeness, it's all over babble, so why single me out?

[ 01 November 2003: Message edited by: EarthShadow ]


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4098

posted 01 November 2003 07:50 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Edited to add: I also find it rather telling when the same article appears bothe here and on websites like that of antisemite David Irving.

Please dont suggest that I am calling anyone anything. However we surely must pause when this occurs, no?


No. That would be the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" logical fallacy.

I, too, withdraw any comments about Mishei entering into dialogue in a helpful spirit. Clearly, he is unable to engage in rational discussion without bringing out the "antisemite" brush to tar everyone nearby. Feh.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 02 November 2003 12:56 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:
Michelle, my post followed emgee's and referenced his comments on the UN.
There are many Jew haters at the UN.

The comment was not directed at babblers.
I told DrConway not to take it personally.


Balls!

You said it in this thread and you most certainly did not indicate that you meant the United Nations specifically.

So am I to convict you of sloppy thinking or post facto revisionism of who your target was?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 02 November 2003 01:08 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the animosity on this thread proves that any state built on race is doomed to fail.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 02 November 2003 04:34 AM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

So am I to convict you of sloppy thinking or post facto revisionism of who your target was?



Neither one Judge Conjob!
Who appointed you to the bench anyway?


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 02 November 2003 11:05 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

I love this. First you say that it's "telling" that al-Q posts something that has also been posted by Irving. Then you say that you're not suggesting anything. Then you say that we should pause when this happens.

Give me a break. Yes, Mishei, you ARE suggesting something. You are implying that al-Q is of the same ilk as David Irving when you say that it is "telling". I'm really sick of these kind of cowardly, backhanded smears. KNOCK IT OFF.

And just so you know, if you try to turn this into a 40 post debate into whether or not you were implying anything, I will NOT be participating.


Well we can go y"Yes you are...no you're not" but perhaps my words were misread. I repeat and I tell you this simply to be truthful;

my intent is to show that we should be aware of attempts by people like Irving and note that he uses articles posted here albeit AS I STATED CLEARLY for a differnt agenda.Yes it is "telling" that Irving uses these articles. he has tried for a long time to suggest that on Israel he and the "left" are not so far apart.

And Scars , yes i peruse the enemies sites, knowledge about their nefarious activities is helpful in dealing with them, no?

Now If you want to call me a liar go ahead but that was my intent.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 02 November 2003 11:27 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, in your last post you say, of David Irving:

quote:
it is "telling" that Irving uses these articles. he has tried for a long time to suggest that on Israel he and the "left" are not so far apart.

I guess that means that we have to call David Irving a restrained conservative on this turf, because up above another babbler has gone much much further than you say Irving has gone.

That other babbler says:

quote:
where Israel is concerned there appears to be a synthesis of thought at times between the left and the extreme right.

"not so far apart" is restrained; "a synthesis of thought" is not -- it is a claim, a serious claim, and waaaaaay more than a suggestion.

Oh, and in case you've forgotten, Mishei: that other babbler is you.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 02 November 2003 11:34 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Mishei, in your last post you say, of David Irving:

"not so far apart" is restrained; "a synthesis of thought" is not -- it is a claim, a serious claim, and waaaaaay more than a suggestion.

Oh, and in case you've forgotten, Mishei: that other babbler is you.


I seem to be having trouble with words today (I know I am leaving myself open...).

For the record and hopefully for the last time. Irving likes to claim that he and the left agree on only one thing Israel. While he and the left may use similar evidence ...the evidence is clearly geared to different agendas. Nonetheless care must be exhibited to debunk Irving and his ilk each time they try to show this claim.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 November 2003 11:42 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, the vast majority of babblers would never devote a single dying brain cell to David Irving unless you brought him up.

Maybe three or four other times in the history of this board some naif has come along with an Irving link, at which point everyone has pointed out to said naif the error of his ways. Apart from that, Mishei, David Irving is yours, all yours.

Have a nice day.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 November 2003 12:15 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Mishei, the vast majority of babblers would never devote a single dying brain cell to David Irving unless you brought him up.

Maybe three or four other times in the history of this board some naif has come along with an Irving link, at which point everyone has pointed out to said naif the error of his ways. Apart from that, Mishei, David Irving is yours, all yours.

Have a nice day.


Problem is my firend we ignore the David Irvinga and his nazi ilk at our peril. yes I will continue to watch these nazis I hope you and other activists wouold reconsider. They are dangerous people.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 November 2003 12:26 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, it is my deep conviction that we ignore the wretched of the earth at our much much greater peril.
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lagatta
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posted 02 November 2003 12:28 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I've posted various times about the nefarious David Irving, Faurisson and other racist, fraudulent "historical revisionists" as these Holocaust deniers like to style themselves - including a long comment piece by Nick Cohen of the Guardian Observer on Irving losing his court case. I don't think skdadl's point was to downplay the danger of such pompous Nazi liars, as they do provide the theoretical material and pep talks for skinhead bands and other very dangerous folks - as we've seen with the Zundelhaus, but that their writings per se are nothing but unadulterated racist crap that is not worth our time of day.

These pigs will use any scrap of material they can get their hands on to disseminate their messages of hatred - if we want to prevent them from getting anything they can use then anything conceivably critical of any "non-Aryan" would have to be censored, whether it is a Ha'aretz article like the one yesterday about the IDF gang-raping and murdering a little Bedouin girl in 1949 or a report on a non-Aryan person committing a crime of any nature.

The left in Europe has no ties whatsoever with such bastards, and they try to beat us up as I know too well - I narrowly escaped a beating by Front national goons in France.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 November 2003 12:32 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In fact, I think this is exactly the point that that professor - I forget his name, the one that everyone was so up in arms about because he said he didn't care if neo-Nazi groups use his words to further their cause - was trying to make.

I am not responsible for other people's stupid leaps in logic. If we sit around and worry all day about whether some left-wing article or criticism of Israel or anyone else gets used fraudulently by a Neo-Nazi to further their cause, then we won't be able to say anything at all that is critical of Israel.

Of course, I know that would suit some people just fine.

[ 02 November 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 02 November 2003 01:58 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel Destroys Shipment of Vitamins for Disabled Children

quote:
OCCUPIED JERUSALEM – Israeli authorities have destroyed a shipment of medicine, vitamins and other food supplements to disabled Palestinian children in the refugee camps in the Gaza Strip, some of whom suffer from down syndrome and malnutrition.

According to officials of al-Awda hospital in Gaza, the shipment is worth tens of thousands of dollar.

“The shipment was held at the airport in Tel Aviv and we were told that certain documents were needed. However when the documents were provided and every time we submitted a document, another was demanded,” said Dr. M. al Farra of the Awda hospital.

“Eventually, the Israeli government destroyed the shipment of the vitamins without any explanation.”

[snip]

A UN report last month accused the Israeli regime of preventing food and water from hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

Palestinian sources said Israeli port authorities were holding up hundreds of tons of food materials donated to the Palestinians without any explanation.



From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 November 2003 02:01 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Problem is my firend we ignore the David Irvinga and his nazi ilk at our peril. yes I will continue to watch these nazis I hope you and other activists wouold reconsider. They are dangerous people.

Oh, bugger David Irving anyway. Why I have to waste my time on even thinking about that moron is because you keep bringing him up. That's exactly the sort of publicity he wants - even if it's negative. It keeps him in peoples' minds instead of condemning him to a most deserved obscurity.

Peaceful, stable countries like Canada do not promote good conditions for extremists like Irving to hold sway.

quote:
As Spake By Michelle:
In fact, I think this is exactly the point that that professor - I forget his name, the one that everyone was so up in arms about because he said he didn't care if neo-Nazi groups use his words to further their cause - was trying to make.

That would be Dr. Neumann.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2003 02:11 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A UN report last month accused the Israeli regime of preventing food and water from hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

Palestinian sources said Israeli port authorities were holding up hundreds of tons of food materials donated to the Palestinians without any explanation.



The wall, starvation, ...

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 November 2003 02:27 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well we can go y"Yes you are...no you're not" but perhaps my words were misread.

So now you've gone from your usual position when caught, of saying that you made an "error," to suggesting that the rest of us made an error.

But back to the reason I posted the article (which I originally found here) about the poll.

skdadl and others, while trying to explain why we take so much interest in the Middle East around here, said one of the reasons for this interest is because the Israeli/Palestinian conflict could have grave consequences for the whole planet - ie. it is a threat to world peace. The poll shows that many Europeans seem to agree with what we say on babble.

[ 02 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


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lagatta
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posted 02 November 2003 02:53 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with al - the Israel-Palestine situation is a powderkeg with dire implications for the entire world - including the possible resurgence of antisemitism as a misguided response to the confusion between "Sharon's policies" and "Jewish people".

I must, however, respectfully disagree with what doc said about David Irving and his ilk. His ilk includes such folks as Zundel and his skinhead followers. No, they certainly won't seize state power but they have in the past committed many violent acts against people of colour and other groups singled out by Nazi ideology.

Many anti-racist activists who do not see eye to eye with Mishei on the Middle East and who certainly doesn't think the left is covertly anti-semitic also keep a close watch out for those people. They pose a far greater immediate danger in certain other countries than they do right here; in particular, there has been a serious resurgence of neo-Nazism in Germany, and not only in the hardscrabble former East Germany. This especially worries me, doc:

"Peaceful, stable countries like Canada do not promote good conditions for extremists like Irving to hold sway."

Other than what I see as illusions about Canadian peacefulness and stability, more important, since when are we only concerned with human rights issues within the borders of the Canadian state? Immediately at least, I'm far more concerned with the impact of Nazi ideologues like Irving and Faurisson and their armed bands of hooligans and skinheads in other places, that aren't really any farther from Montréal than Vancouver is. I don't feel any more ties with someone in Vancouver than someone the same distance east of here.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 November 2003 03:02 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lagatta, you'll pardon me if I point out that conditions, by and large, in Canada, do not fit the parameters that Weimar Germany, or Spain in the 1930s, fell into.

The United States, IMHO, is at more risk of a fascist resurgence than Canada is - mainly due to the greater social tensions that have developed in that country due to a number of factors which I'm not going to get into.

Your statement about closeness or lack of it seems to strike me as irrelevant, although if you're trying to get a dig in at me for some reason, I'd like to know what it is.

Canada does not, for example, suffer from gross income inequality relative to Latin American or poor African nations. It does not suffer from grossly high unemployment. It has a citizenry that is still somewhat engaged with the political process, although I grant you that by Canadian standards, we are doing poorly compared to, say, the 1960s or 1970s.

In short, I don't see where there is a catalytic potential for extremist right-wing movements to hold sway over a large portion of the populace.

If you can prove it to me, I will be justifiably alarmed, of course.

As I see it, while there is not a large danger, I agree there is still a danger to immigrant populations and to religious minorities.

I feel it is a mistake, however, to equate these real dangers with the necessity for a siege-mentality worldview about people like Zundel and Irving.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 02 November 2003 03:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doc, there was no covert dig against you whatsoever. I did find your statement perhaps a tad parochial and nationalistic, but in general I agree with you and certainly don't advocate any kind of siege mentality about the far right. (I have several anarchist punk friends who have fallen into that trap).

No, I was just speaking of myself. I know a lot more people in western Europe - including several Arabs, Jews and Black people who could be targeted by Nazi skinheads - than I do people in Vancouver, though I do have three longtime friends in your city. Unfortunately, I've visited BC all of once, flying in and out to interpret at a conference, and except for some exceptional Asian food, had no leisure time there whatsoever, not even to see the Aboriginal art at the BC museum, alas. And I really can't afford to cross the continent or the ocean unless someone is paying me to interpret somewhere or attend a conference. I have very little knowledge of and contact with BC, and since I have studied and worked in Europe, have much closer ties there.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 November 2003 04:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
In fact, I think this is exactly the point that that professor - I forget his name, the one that everyone was so up in arms about because he said he didn't care if neo-Nazi groups use his words to further their cause - was trying to make.

I am not responsible for other people's stupid leaps in logic. If we sit around and worry all day about whether some left-wing article or criticism of Israel or anyone else gets used fraudulently by a Neo-Nazi to further their cause, then we won't be able to say anything at all that is critical of Israel.

Of course, I know that would suit some people just fine.

[ 02 November 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]



Ah yes you mean the same Professor who said:


quote:
If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don't come to light, I don't care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable anti-Semitism, or reasonable hostility to Jews, I also don't care. If it means encouraging vicious, racist anti-Semitism, or the destruction of the state of Israel, I still don't care

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 02 November 2003 05:09 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Note that we, in all this discussion of fascists (David Irving's fans) and would-be fascists -- noting Mishei's entirely malicious hack-job quotation of Dr. Neumann -- we have left the topic of the thread.

The topic is the Fascist (yes, I said it) Sharon government and their unflinching belief in the glory of violence. The substitution of compromise and negotiation with force, strength and militarism. The unbridled belief that some other people is entirely racially unfit and that they're racial unfitness is the chief cause of the suffering of Israeli society. If they can only be done away with, or fenced in, everything will be "milk and honey".

Yes, Mishei, Fascists should be our concern. However, as dangerous as quacks like Irving may be, and as dangerous as you would like to pretend Dr. Neumann is, much of what you do is produce white noise to block out the heavy grinding of Sharon's military machine. A machine built on ultranationalism, reverence for violence, racism, and an unprincipled politics that will use any means necessary to usurp it's opponents on both left and right by keeping all eyes focussed on the chimera of an ethnic 'Enemy' contained in the Palestinians. A story where the Palestinians now play the part of 'the Jew' and the 'survival of the nation (codeword 'Jewish State of Israel) is placed above all other concerns in order to render all other contradictions and conflicts within society moot. In other words - to silence society into a stupified cheering section for the heroic leader promising hardwon victory.

In a word, Fascism....

What we all note is that your concern for Fascism never extends so far as to openly oppose this manifestation of Fascism in the ranks of your favoured cause. By any means necessary, I guess...

[ 02 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Courage
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posted 02 November 2003 05:27 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:


I must, however, respectfully disagree with what doc said about David Irving and his ilk. His ilk includes such folks as Zundel and his skinhead followers. No, they certainly won't seize state power but they have in the past committed many violent acts against people of colour and other groups singled out by Nazi ideology.

Many anti-racist activists who do not see eye to eye with Mishei on the Middle East and who certainly doesn't think the left is covertly anti-semitic also keep a close watch out for those people.


Well put. It's a difficult path to eek out, and one finds themselves attacked from various different angles - from one side by the 'liberal' middle who think that those who call the name 'racism' so often are overreacting and simply agitating for agitation's sake. On the other hand, we are attacked from within the ranks of the mainstream 'antiracism' coalitions over the specific issue of antisemitism for countering the policies of Israel. If I could count the times that I've been called a 'Brownshirt' or something worse considering all the time I've spent in my life smoking those a**holes out...well, let's just say I've run out of fingers and toes.

quote:
They pose a far greater immediate danger in certain other countries than they do right here; in particular, there has been a serious resurgence of neo-Nazism in Germany, and not only in the hardscrabble former East Germany. This especially worries me, doc:

"Peaceful, stable countries like Canada do not promote good conditions for extremists like Irving to hold sway."

Other than what I see as illusions about Canadian peacefulness and stability, more important, since when are we only concerned with human rights issues within the borders of the Canadian state? Immediately at least, I'm far more concerned with the impact of Nazi ideologues like Irving and Faurisson and their armed bands of hooligans and skinheads in other places, that aren't really any farther from Montréal than Vancouver is. I don't feel any more ties with someone in Vancouver than someone the same distance east of here.


I agree with you here, lagatta. The veneer of Canadian stability is thin and quite instable. Even a little SARS in Toronto caused a visible reaction against our Chinese community based on little more than irrational fears and old prejudices about cleanliness, hygene, etc. Our multiculturalism is very delicate, and it needs to be maintained with great effort and care. As when Fantino and others in Toronto made open attacks on the black community here a few months ago, there is much evidence that those racial tensions are still only just under the surface. That the slurs uttered by our police Chief and others were so easily digested by much of the population suggests that it wouldn't take much to turn the tides.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2003 05:45 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, Courage, he we are discussing someone of no import such as Irving when the Israeli state is denying food, water and medicines to Palestinians including children.

How fucked up is that?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 02 November 2003 05:51 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Yes, Courage, he we are discussing someone of no import such as Irving when the Israeli state is denying food, water and medicines to Palestinians including children.

How fucked up is that?


It's the deliberate policy of some to create this kind of confusion. It's part of the smokescreen.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 November 2003 05:59 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:
Neither one Judge Conjob!
Who appointed you to the bench anyway?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and put it down to sloppy thinking. After all, post facto revision of your target would imply you were actually using your brain at the time.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 02 November 2003 06:08 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Time to feed the hamster that's running yours.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 02 November 2003 06:17 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Wow...Zing!

...*sigh*


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 02 November 2003 06:44 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

In a word, Fascism....

What we all note is that your concern for Fascism never extends so far as to openly oppose this manifestation of Fascism in the ranks of your favoured cause. By any means necessary, I guess...

[ 02 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


Israel is a Democracy, and it's Arab citizens
have the vote. Sharon must face the electorate.

It's always breathtaking when the courageous fog machine swings into action, as in it leaves one gasping for air...


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 November 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:
Time to feed the hamster that's running yours.

NO! REALLY!? You mean my brain's not powered by sugars and electrochemical signals?!?

Gosh! We'll have to get you published in Science magazine, sure enough! We've all been misled for hundreds of years about the true source of the brain's power, people, we really have.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 02 November 2003 07:14 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Doc, you're an anomaly, I'm sure.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 November 2003 07:25 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, in your case, I suspect the hamster's already dead from lack of care and feeding.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 02 November 2003 08:16 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
No way, I just got through combing it's coat!
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 November 2003 08:18 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, you two, get a room or something.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2003 08:24 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel is a Democracy

They said that about South Africa too.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 02 November 2003 08:51 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes, Courage, he we are discussing someone of no import such as Irving when the Israeli state is denying food, water and medicines to Palestinians including children.
How fucked up is that?

Well, now, let's see who's screwing whom:
The Israeli government collects taxes from employers who hire Palestinians. Said taxes are transferred to the Palestinian Authority, whose Chairman is none other than the beloved Arafat.
Said beloved Chairman is in the habit of siphoning off said funds into personal foreign bank accounts, to the tune of US$900-Million (according to the IMF representative in the Gaza)! This (fraudulent) practice has been going on for a number of years, according to the IMF.
Remembering that those pilfered funds were meant to benefit the Palestinian people, I'd like to ask WingNut, who the fuck is fucking whom?

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 02 November 2003 09:07 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:

Said beloved Chairman is in the habit of siphoning off said funds into personal foreign bank accounts, to the tune of US$900-Million (according to the IMF representative in the Gaza)!

I'd like to see a source. But even if Arafat is corrupt, a possibility I've long entertained, how does that justify or excuse the destruction by Israel of food and medical supplies that should be going to Palestinian refugees? That's a distraction, not an argument.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 02 November 2003 09:23 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, now I get it. That wall isn't actually a land grab. It's actual purpose is to prevent $$$ from being whisked out of the West Bank to Arafat's secret Swiss bank accounts.

And the thousands of Palestinians who are also unfortunately imprisoned and "contained" along with said monies? Well, they're just, y'know, "collateral damage".


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2003 11:32 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, and The-Evil-Incarnate Arafat's money was used to but that food, water and medicines being witheld from Palestinain kiddies by the Saintly-As-All-get-Out Israelis who are doing them a favour because who wants them being nourished on goods obtained with dirty money?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 05 November 2003 08:57 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel destroys US-built wells
By Justin Huggler in Jerusalem

05 November 2003

The US has reportedly complained after the Israeli army destroyed wells built for civilians in Gaza by an American government aid agency.

Huge areas have been demolished by the Israelis in the Gaza Strip in recent weeks, including more than 150 homes.


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=460551

Withholding food, medicine and destroying water sources. At what point does it become a policy of racial cleansing?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 05 November 2003 10:32 AM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When the worth of the withheld food, medicine and destroyed water sources reaches the US$900-million mark. (Arafat has long surpassed that.)
From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 05 November 2003 10:58 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I like how the number grows every time a new troll brings up Arafat's alleged nest egg. I remember a day when it was a mere 50 million dollars. Honestly, I don't know how the propagandists thought he could get by on a measly 50 million. 900 million is far more reasonable.

I'd say that by Christmas, his supposed horde will be at *Dr. Evil voice* 1 billion dollars *end Dr. Evil voice*.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 05 November 2003 12:00 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I remember a day when it was a mere 50 million dollars.

"A mere $50-million!" The champagne socialists must be upping the ante.

Geez, in Canada, a lot of poor people have been chastized, in some way, for, say, shoplifting, say, a pack of cigarettes, or lipstick, or a loaf of bread.

(Labelling me a troll is not going to change your beloved Arafat's corrupt nature.)

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: DavidB-D ]


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 05 November 2003 12:40 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:
When the worth of the withheld food, medicine and destroyed water sources reaches the US$900-million mark. (Arafat has long surpassed that.)

And what exactly has this to do with what the Israelis are doing to destroy Palestianian infrastructure??

What is it with this right wing urge to justify their actions based on someone being "worst" than they are??

Using this kind of false justification, we can basically do away with democracy, justice, charity, and any kind of civilized behaviour because there is always someone worst to use as justification for being undemocratic, injust, selfish and uncivilized . . . come to think of it, how did civilized society ever come to exist at all if justifying your 'sins" because there exists a bigger "sinner" is really a legitimate defense??

Is that what your belief system teaches you??


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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Babbler # 1425

posted 05 November 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What is it with this right wing urge to justify their actions based on someone being "worst" than they are??

Let's see, we bombed the shit out of poor people in Afghanistan because Osama Ben Laden is rich, and we bombed the shit out of poor people in Iraq because Saddam is rich. We'll probably be bombing poor people in Syria and/or Iran (unless Israel will do it for us) because somebody or other is rich. Makes perfect sense to me!


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 05 November 2003 02:20 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Labelling me a troll is not going to change your beloved Arafat's corrupt nature.

Likewise, calling him my beloved Arafat is not going to change your label any time soon.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 05 November 2003 02:40 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Likewise, calling him my beloved Arafat is not going to change your label any time soon.

You need a good dictionary.

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 05 November 2003 03:00 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:
(Labelling me a troll is not going to change your beloved Arafat's corrupt nature.)

You mean that word "your" in that parenthetical phrase isn't really the word "your"?

Well, I guess the electron beam in my monitor must be playing up, or something, so I went and checked on a different computer, and sure as shooting, it's "your".

Maybe you can tell me when a "your" isn't a "your".


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 05 November 2003 03:17 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Geez, another linguistically challenged babbler; or a kid.

Look it up in a good dictionary! The Canadian Oxford Dictionary is an excellent one.


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 05 November 2003 03:21 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
(cheap shot removed)

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: paxamillion ]


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 05 November 2003 03:25 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What does any amount of money have to do with why these people are being deprived of clean water, food and medicines? I find it abhorent, David, you defend the ghettoization of a people along with their malnutrition based on something unrelated to their condition.

I am sure much the same lies and rationalizations were said about those within the Warsaw Ghetto.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 05 November 2003 03:27 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:
Geez, another linguistically challenged babbler; or a kid.

Look it up in a good dictionary! The Canadian Oxford Dictionary is an excellent one.


Well, unless you have some special meaning for the word "your" that I don't know about, all I can assume is that you're just deliberately trying to be an insufferable snot, at which you're doing a pretty good job.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 05 November 2003 03:33 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why don't you look it up? Then, come back and apologize.
From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1425

posted 05 November 2003 03:37 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, unless you have some special meaning for the word "your" that I don't know about, all I can assume is that you're just deliberately trying to be an insufferable snot, at which you're doing a pretty good job.

I guess DavidB-D might say that it all depends on what the meaning of "is" is...


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 05 November 2003 03:43 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What does any amount of money have to do with why these people are being deprived of clean water, food and medicines? I find it abhorent, David, you defend the ghettoization of a people along with their malnutrition based on something unrelated to their condition.

I think that the point that David may be trying to get at is that an awfully large amount of international money has gone to the Palestinians. For all that money, where are the water treatment plants, etc?

edited to correct the spelling of Palestinians

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 05 November 2003 03:47 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:
Why don't you look it up? Then, come back and apologize.

In case you hadn't noticed, Arafat is certainly not "my" beloved anything.

So I suggest you apologize for an overgeneralization.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 05 November 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What a lazy know-it-all.

Look up the meaning of "your" in a good dictionary.

Are you afraid that there might be more than one meaning? And that you may have to apologize?

Edited to add:
Another thing, Doctor: Your use of that super-duper word, "overgeneralization," is faulty. Look it up!

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: DavidB-D ]


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 05 November 2003 04:02 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone with any common sense knows the meaning of the word. You're just being insulting by demanding that I go look it up.

So bugger off.

And as for this,

quote:
Another thing, Doctor: Your use of that super-duper word, "overgeneralization," is faulty. Look it up!

Sure you overgeneralized. You claimed certain people on this thread like the fact that Arafat is in power in the Palestinian Authority without any backing for that assertion.

Hint: Perhaps certain people on this thread would prefer that a less "corrupt" (to use your appellation) leader be in charge of the PA who retains the level of popular support among Palestinian-Arabs needed in order for them to accept the results of negotiations with his Israeli counterpart.

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 05 November 2003 04:06 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
What does any amount of money have to do with why these people are being deprived of clean water, food and medicines? I find it abhorent, David, you defend the ghettoization of a people along with their malnutrition based on something unrelated to their condition.

I am sure much the same lies and rationalizations were said about those within the Warsaw Ghetto.


Ah yes here we go again using nazi ideology to demonize Israel. How dare you make such an evil and utterly baseless comparision.

The Warsaw Ghetto by 1942 saw over 100,000 Jews murdered; In the Warsaw ghetto the Jews had all their worldly goods of worth confiscated totalling close to $700,000.00;Bands of children died mercilessly on the streets from mass starvation and dysentry;Any Jew found crossing to the Aryan side was shot on the spot; slave labour was the order of the day by the nazis for all Jews over the age of 12 (Encyclopedia judaica Vol. 16)...the list of inhumanity is endless. To compare this grostesque evil to any Israel policy is to be either wilfully blind to its intent or otherwise...either way it is demonic.

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 05 November 2003 04:11 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Anyone with any common sense knows the meaning of the word. You're just being insulting by demanding that I go look it up.
So bugger off.

Sure, child, sure. Not nice, is it, to be caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 05 November 2003 04:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, a question:

Do you think things are bad in Palestine? How bad do you think they are? Do you have a precise way of calibrating these things? I mean, if some people think that their lives are as bad as they can be, are you able to correct them (ie: to say that in fact their lives aren't as bad as they could be), and by what objective measure? Do you think things could get worse? How much worse? How bad would they have to get before you were ready to say "That is too bad"?

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 05 November 2003 04:15 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not just a troll, but an ignorant troll. How nice.

Your = possesive

You're = contraction of you are

I don't even comprehend how 'you're' fits into your previous statement, DavidB-D. I must assume that the B-D stands for Bad Diction.

I notice that you still haven't presented any proof of the $900 million claim. Typical of someone crawling out from under their bridge.

In anticipation of your next embarrasment, DavidBad-Diction, here is a lesson:

their = possesive
there = in that place (e.g. over there: just under my bridge)
they're = contraction of they are; similar in meaning to the slang contraction you probably use: them's (e.g. them's some tasty hindquarters you're carrying around, goat)


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 05 November 2003 04:17 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:
Sure, child, sure. Not nice, is it, to be caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

You continue to be insulting and condescending. Since you have no interest in being anything but a prick, this conversation is now over.

*plonk*.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 05 November 2003 04:20 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
DavidBad-Diction ... chuckle chuckle chuckle ... Sarcasmo, you naughty.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 05 November 2003 04:23 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Mishei, a question:

Do you think things are bad in Palestine? How bad do you think they are? Do you have a precise way of calibrating these things? I mean, if some people think that their lives are as bad as they can be, are you able to correct them (ie: to say that in fact their lives aren't as bad as they could be), and by what objective measure? Do you think things could get worse? How much worse? How bad would they have to get before you were ready to say "That is too bad"?

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]



The lives of Palestinians in the WB is deplorable. It must be dealt with humanely and with deep understanding and passion. Ending the occupation would be first on my list secondly, getting Arafat to give his people some of the millions and millions in cash he has been hoarding would also help.

All this said those who make evil comparisions of the situation to the Warsaw ghetto are just trying to fan the flames of hate. They are sick and inordiantely demonic lies.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 05 November 2003 04:25 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Not just a troll, but an ignorant troll. How nice.

What a pompous twit.

your informal usu. derogatory much talked of; well known (why not ask your self-styled 'expert').

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: DavidB-D ]


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 05 November 2003 04:38 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, Mishei, but I am not getting it.

If people's lives are so bad that they would just as soon die, then I usually figure that that is about as bad as life gets.

I mean, as we all know, a lot of people in many different places in the world get that far for a lot of different reasons. Middle-class North Americans have been known to commit suicide. Hell, Swedes are known for committing suicide.

It has always bothered me that some people seem to feel we should withhold our deepest empathy and/or outrage until we can find absolutely the worst-case scenario on earth -- which in my view would probably be people living on a flood-plain in Bangladesh. To me, that's just an excuse for being lazy, or for continuing to hold our personal outrages close, while failing to see before our noses people in need of our support and our advocacy right now.

How can you say to a Palestinian whose olive trees were just ploughed under and who can't get a reliable supply of water for his family that he should be grateful because three generations ago somewhere in Europe people were much worse off? How can you do that, Mishei?

Do you walk by beggars on the streets of Toronto and remind them about the flood-plains of Bangladesh?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 05 November 2003 04:42 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mr. Bad-Diction:

You'll find that when typing the derogatory form of your, it's best to use italics or quotes. In speech, we inflect the derogatory your by dragging the sound of the 'ou' sound out. That does not transfer cleanly to the written page. A visual hint is needed when transferring such a thought in print. It also helps to follow-up the sarcasm with some sort of qualifying context. For example:

Oh, so that's your bridge, is it?

Oh, so that's your bridge, is it? Funny, because I've lived under it for five years now.

Quite a difference, eh? Sarcasm doesn't always translate to the page too well, especially under the fingers of rank amateurs.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 05 November 2003 04:51 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh, so that's your bridge, is it? Funny, because I've lived under it for five years now.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 05 November 2003 04:56 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or was DBD meaning "your" in more of the British style of expressed sarcasm:

"I see your man Bush was on the wireless last night."

Kind of unusual use for us canucks, eh?

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: paxamillion ]


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4572

posted 05 November 2003 05:20 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, my! The Queen's English Brigade on the attack! Oh, my!
From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 05 November 2003 05:25 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Sorry, Mishei, but I am not getting it.

How can you say to a Palestinian whose olive trees were just ploughed under and who can't get a reliable supply of water for his family that he should be grateful because three generations ago somewhere in Europe people were much worse off? How can you do that, Mishei?

Do you walk by beggars on the streets of Toronto and remind them about the flood-plains of Bangladesh?



Don't be silly or are you being purposely obtuse?

I never suggested that Palestinians be grateful because they are not as badly off as those in the Warsaw Ghetto. WHY WOULD YOU WRITE SUCH NONSENSE?????????? Where in God's name do you see that.

My point has ALWAYS been the inappropraite and demonic comparision of Israel policy in the WB to the wholesale mass murder policy of the nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto.

One death even one person's legitimate suffering is not the same as wholesale deaths and suffering even though all are tragic.

Mdme Simone Veil of the French-based Foundation for the Remembrance of the Shoah, IMHO, put it best: “The [current] culture of human rights makes any violation of these rights, which leads to human death, a new Auschwitz, … while the Shoah is being reduced to a commonplace event”. In other words, Jewish victimhood is being denied or treated as unimportant if not irrelevant by much of the civil society. This is unacceptable.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 05 November 2003 05:37 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, which critter kept bleating about the Canadian Oxford again? And now it's complaining about the diction police, is it? Give it up, asshat.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 05 November 2003 05:45 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:
Oh, my! The Queen's English Brigade on the attack! Oh, my!

Actually, I was trying to see your side of things.

I'll join Dr. C. now.

**PLONK**


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 05 November 2003 05:52 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Egads, this board is simply covered in fish: one can hardly move for all the Red Herrings...

And now, presenting our chief Fish Mongers - EarthShadow, David, and Mishei!

Let's a give a big round of applause for another thread carefully diverted.....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 05 November 2003 05:57 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:

Israel is a Democracy, and it's Arab citizens
have the vote. Sharon must face the electorate.

It's always breathtaking when the courageous fog machine swings into action, as in it leaves one gasping for air...


It doesn't matter. Unlike some, who prefer to see Fascism as a thing of the past - as a static, unadaptable, unchanging style of government, I prefer to see it as the chameleon of politics. It's about a certain technology of gaining and holding power - as much about optics as politics. Fascists are not above 'democracy', and this gives the simple presence of an electorate far too much privilege for being a balance to tyranny and demogoguery.

Fascism is only acheiving it's maturity today - it was an infant in the 'age of the dictators'. It is a certain aesthetisation of politics - the making of the leader into an action hero who is at once the saviour and the servent of the people. It employs a certain creation and channeling of public fear and anger into political legitimacy. A technique which is even more accurate and precise given the capabilities of mass electronic media. The fascism of today uses a well-primed electorate as it's cheering section, as an all-ready-preached-to choir to give popular legitimacy to it's outrages in a way that the dictatorial style never could. So, you attack a group of people, and when they have the audacity to fight back, you call them 'terrorists' and legitimise your attack with the public under a false rubric of 'self-defense', thereby presenting one's self as the existential saviour of the public (this was precisely Sharon's platform against Barak.) Listening to key Cabinet members like Avigdor Leiberman call for all out war, and secular and religious members of the ruling coalition making racist and warmongering statements on a regular basis -- all with public support -- without censure, should give us pause. It's a politics of war and displays of force, and that the public legitimises it is no reason to say, "well, it's okay then, it must be right because all those people could never be wrong....".

Interestingly, those who like to see Fascism as 'over and done with' are often it's chief targets and cheerleaders in the here-and-now...

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 05 November 2003 06:05 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Let's a give a big round of applause for another thread carefully diverted.....


After the courageous fog machine, the sound of one hand clapping.

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: EarthShadow ]


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 05 November 2003 06:11 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just keep avoiding....
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 05 November 2003 06:23 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
After the courageous fog machine, the sound of one hand clapping.

Man, that's some....really bad writing, EarthShadow.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 05 November 2003 06:27 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sharon must face the electorate.

And given who and what Sharon is, that makes us all really cheerful about the electorate, eh?

Courage, that was most thoughtful and provocative. I'll be back tomorrow. Such sad people. The Israelis, I mean. It is a tragedy, in the Greek sense. It takes misguided intelligence to destroy yourself.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 05 November 2003 06:50 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Prescient words from Walter Benjamin:

quote:
The growing proletarianization of modern man and the increasing formation of masses are two aspects of the same process. Fascism attempts to organize the newly created proletarian masses without affecting the property structure which the masses strive to eliminate. Fascism sees its salvation in giving these masses not their right, but instead a chance to express themselves. The masses have a right to change property relations; Fascism seeks to give them an expression while preserving property. The logical result of Fascism is the introduction of aesthetics into political life. The violation of the masses, whom Fascism, with its Fuhrer cult, forces to their knees, has its counterpart in the violation of an apparatus which is pressed into the production of ritual values.

All efforts to render politics aesthetic culminate in one thing: war. War and war only can set a goal for mass movements on the largest scale while respecting the traditional property system. This is the political formula for the situation. The technological formula may be stated as follows: Only war makes it possible to mobilize all of today's technical resources while maintaining the property system. It goes without saying that the Fascist apotheosis of war does not employ such arguments. Still, Marinetti says in his manifesto on the Ethiopian colonial war:

"For twenty-seven years we Futurists have rebelled against the branding of war as antiaes-thetic .... Accordingly we state:... War is beautiful because it establishes man's dominion over the subjugated machinery by means of gas masks, terrifying megaphones, flame throwers, and small tanks. War is beautiful because it initiates the dreamt-of metalization of the human body. War is beautiful because it enriches a flowering meadow with the fiery orchids of machine guns. War is beautiful because it combines the gunfire, the cannonades, the cease-fire, the scents, and the stench of putrefaction into a symphony. War is beautiful because it creates new architecture, like that of the big tanks, the geometrical formation flights, the smoke spirals from burning villages, and many others .... Poets and artists of Futurism! ... remember these principles of an aesthetics of war so that your struggle for a new literature and a new graphic art... may be illumined by them!"

This manifesto has the virtue of clarity. Its formulations deserve to be accepted by dialecticians. To the latter, the aesthetics of today's war appears as follows: If the natural utilization of productive forces is impeded by the property system, the increase in technical devices, in speed, and in the sources of energy will press for an unnatural utilization, and this is found in war. The destructiveness of war furnishes proof that society has not been mature enough to incorporate technology as its organ, that technology has not been sufficiently developed to cope with the elemental forces of society. The horrible features of imperialistic warfare are attributable to the discrepancy between the tremendous means of production and their inadequate utilization in the process of production--in other words, to unemployment and the lack of markets. Imperialistic war is a rebellion of technology which collects, in the form of "human material," the claims to which society has denied its natural materrial. Instead of draining rivers, society directs a human stream into a bed of trenches; instead of dropping seeds from airplanes, it drops incendiary bombs over cities; and through gas warfare the aura is abolished in a new way.

"Fiat ars--pereat mundus, "says Fascism, and, as Marinetti admits, expects war to supply the artistic gratification of a sense perception that has been changed by technology. This is evidently the consummation of "l'art pour l'art." Mankind, which in Homer's time was an object of contemplation for the Olympian gods, now is one for itself. Its self-alienation has reached such a degree that it can experience its own destruction as an aesthetic pleasure of the first order. This is the situation of politics which Fascism is rendering aesthetic.



As I watched people sit in front of their TVs during the recent Gulf War - participating in the war literally as arm-chair generals only to be asked (polled) to grant their assent to what they had become a part of and then routinely had the results of these polls tied into stories of the victory that the troops were achieving, I could only think that we had stepped into an entirely new form of mass manipulation. One that our quadrennial trips to the elections polls could not counter nor reverse.

Bush standing on that ship (itself a technical marvel) having flown in on a state-of-the-art fighter jet, proudly dressed as a conquering soldier, basking in the technological and (therefore?) moral superiority of the United States. The prettiest of all wars: Victory without Casualties through Technological Superiority. The Glory of War deprived of it's suffering, it's pain, and it's destruction, these having become the handmaidens of 'progress' and 'change' for Iraqis and the world. A reality series called 'Beautiful War'...

Meanwhile, the economy flounders for most, there is an increasing wealth disparity and the masses are fed a steady diet of fear and war. The masses are told that the war is an 'expression' of their values, of their strength while their real strength - the strength to control their own destinies is plummeting....

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 05 November 2003 07:34 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Warsaw Ghetto by 1942 saw over 100,000 Jews murdered; In the Warsaw ghetto the Jews had all their worldly goods of worth confiscated totalling close to $700,000.00;Bands of children died mercilessly on the streets from mass starvation and dysentry;Any Jew found crossing to the Aryan side was shot on the spot; slave labour was the order of the day by the nazis for all Jews over the age of 12 (Encyclopedia judaica Vol. 16)...the list of inhumanity is endless. To compare this grostesque evil to any Israel policy is to be either wilfully blind to its intent or otherwise...either way it is demonic.

And to deny the comparisons is equally evil.
Are the residents of Gaza not being sealed in? Are they not being sealed in because they share a common ethinic heritage and nothing else? Are they not being denied food, water and medicine? Are their possessions including homes, olive groves, and for God's sake, water wells, not being systematically destroyed? Are their children not suffering from malnutrition and prevantable disease? Are missiles not fired into their crowded streets killing many to strike just one?

Do the words "Never Again" mean anything to you Mishei? If so, then how can you utter them without a terrible rage welling up inside you when you look at Gaza and the West Bank?

When are the comparisons okay Mishei? When it is too late?

Never Again means never again means exposing the evil even at the earliest stages. And surely even you must agree the wall screams ghetto and the deprivation whispers death.

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 05 November 2003 07:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

And to deny the comparisons is equally evil.
Are the residents of Gaza not being sealed in? Are they not being sealed in because they share a common ethinic heritage and nothing else? Are they not being denied food, water and medicine? Are their possessions including homes, olive groves, and for God's sake, water wells, not being systematically destroyed? Are their children not suffering from malnutrition and prevantable disease? Are missiles not fired into their crowded streets killing many to strike just one?

Do the words "Never Again" mean anything to you Mishei? If so, then how can you utter them without a terrible rage welling up inside you when you look at Gaza and the West Bank?

When are the comparisons okay Mishei? When it is too late?

Never Again means never again means exposing the evil even at the earliest stages. And surely even you must agree the wall screams ghetto and the deprivation whispers death.

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


If you truly believe that Isrelis treat Palestinians in the same way Nazis treated Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto you are either very stupid (which I honsetly doubt) or demented (which I also doubt). So what does that leave?

Perhaps you are trolling (possible)

Perhaps you are trying to provoke me into calling you an antisemite (also possible)

More likely your understanding of history is so skewed so poorly realized that you are virtually unable to delineate evil; your assessment skills so inadequate that you are also unable to discern the difference between horrible and tragic acts occurring during acts of self defence and clear outright genocide (while most high school students can make this distinction). Well for now that is what I choose to believe the alternatives , as I noted are to dark even for you.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 05 November 2003 07:48 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting take, Wingnut... I too have often wondered about this argument from the Mishei-types...

It's not that bad! (He actually argued this using a UN report that showed life in the Occupied Territories was slightly better than places like Liberia...

It's not that bad yet....

Well, it seems to be getting worse, but no outright genocide yet, so not that bad...

When is it 'bad enough'?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 05 November 2003 07:48 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And it is the denial of people like you, mishei, who allow the evil to grow unchecked.
quote:
Christian Aid spokesman, Dominic Nutt, who has just returned from an assessment mission to Gaza, said: 'The levels of poverty in Gaza are shocking. I have met families living in fear of starvation who spend their days dodging Israeli bullets and waiting for neighbours to donate meagre food rations.

'The tension is palpable. Israeli F16s fly overhead day and night. Parents fear for the lives of their children and the children are terrified. The missiles strike with impunity, damaging the already fragile infrastructure and leaving psychological scars.



Child malnutrition cases double in Gaza

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 05 November 2003 07:57 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
[QB]
More likely your understanding of history is so skewed so poorly realized that you are virtually unable to delineate evil;

Yes, of course, because only you are capable of assessing evil.

quote:
your assessment skills so inadequate that you are also unable to discern the difference between horrible and tragic acts occurring during acts of self defence

Bulldozing homes is 'self defense' now, is it? And firing rockets into crowded streets with no military target in sight? Boy, I sure am glad we have you around to comfort us and make sure we understand what 'evil' is. For a second there, I would think that knowingly killing or injuring people who are no threat to you could be considered evil, but now that I know that those poor Israeli soldiers were actually defending themselves from all those homeless, unarmed civilians in an area which they are militarily occupying (i.e. a forward position) it makes everything different...

To me, 'evil' is the ability to have such callous disregard for human life that one can merely write-off hundreds of deaths, and thousands of people made homeless as 'tragic accidents' and 'self defense' when the death is dealt by tremendously well-equipped force on a largely civilian population dispirited and derided by years of abuse and brutality. 'Evil' is to maintain the fiction that there is a balance of forces in this conflict, so that Israeli attacks on Palestinians can be considered 'self defense' against an existential threat.

Anyone with any intelligence can see that the balance of power is so firmly on the side of Israel that such an argument is doomed. It doesn't seem to stop you from making it though, good little man that you are....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 November 2003 08:01 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Bulldozing homes is 'self defense' now, is it? And firing rockets into crowded streets with no military target in sight? Boy, I sure am glad we have you around to comfort us and make sure we understand what 'evil' is. For a second there, I would think that knowingly killing or injuring people who are no threat to you could be considered evil, but now that I know that those poor Israeli soldiers were actually defending themselves from all those homeless, unarmed civilians in an area which they are militarily occupying (i.e. a forward position) it makes everything different...


And of course on this we have only your say so or the reports from sources whoise agendas are equally questionable.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 05 November 2003 08:10 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

And of course on this we have only your say so or the reports from sources whoise agendas are equally questionable.


Right. Everyone is just lying to get 'the Jooze'...Palestinians are all liars telling tall antisemitic tales. It's all just a ploy to destroy Israel, you know, those damned Arabs will exaggerate anything to destroy Israel...and all those commie pinko aid workers too - antisemites one and all, and the UN, and the conscientious objectors....

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 05 November 2003 08:17 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tell us, Mishei, who is a reliable source of information on what goes on in the Occupied Territories?
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 05 November 2003 08:31 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
B'Tselem probably have a questionable agenda: B'Tselem.

And Amnesty International.

Human Rights Watch are also of 'questionable' motives.

Just to name a few.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 05 November 2003 08:48 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You will accomplish nothing, Courage. You are arguing against denial.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 05 November 2003 09:21 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Right. Everyone is just lying to get 'the Jooze'...Palestinians are all liars telling tall antisemitic tales. It's all just a ploy to destroy Israel, you know, those damned Arabs will exaggerate anything to destroy Israel...and all those commie pinko aid workers too - antisemites one and all, and the UN, and the conscientious objectors....

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


MMMM and of course in your eyes all the Israelis who dispute your version are liars arent they? You are the only one that can be right...give me a break!!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 05 November 2003 09:25 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
MMMM and of course in your eyes all the Israelis who dispute your version are liars arent they? You are the only one that can be right.

Do you believe what you write, or are you just being argumentative?


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 November 2003 09:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

Do you believe what you write, or are you just being argumentative?


Do you believe what you write or are YOU just being argumentative?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 05 November 2003 09:48 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know you are but what am IIIII?

In other news, this thread is 161 posts long.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 05 November 2003 09:52 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Stop the suicide bombers. Stop the Intifada. Stop
tryng to destroy Israel.

From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 05 November 2003 09:58 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

And given who and what Sharon is, that makes us all really cheerful about the electorate, eh?

Courage, that was most thoughtful and provocative. I'll be back tomorrow. Such sad people. The Israelis, I mean. It is a tragedy, in the Greek sense. It takes misguided intelligence to destroy yourself.


The people have failed the government, no doubt about it.


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 05 November 2003 10:01 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I'm amazed that you get away this crap...absolutely amazed.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 05 November 2003 10:13 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Israel/Jew Haters. Admit it, then ban me. B' bye.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 05 November 2003 10:19 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Who exactly are you calling Jew-haters, EarthShadow? In any case, I can think of one big reason to ban you, but unfortunately, being abjectly stupid is a not banable offense, I believe.

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 November 2003 10:43 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Eyes closed, hands over his ears, yelling at the top of his voice...

I suppose this is another unreliable source, but I'll post it anyway.

The US has reportedly complained after the Israeli army destroyed wells built for civilians in Gaza by an American government aid agency.
Huge areas have been demolished by the Israelis in the Gaza Strip in recent weeks, including more than 150 homes.

I suppose the hope is that the Palestinians will just dry up and blow away.

quote:
The people have failed the government, no doubt about it.

No need to point out to students of 20th century history who this is paraphrasing.

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 05 November 2003 11:31 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:
Israel/Jew Haters. Admit it, then ban me. B' bye.

One doesn't need to be a psyhoanalyst to see the self-aggrandising manipulation here. Weak.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 06 November 2003 12:03 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Mishei, I'm amazed that you get away this crap...absolutely amazed.
Get away with this crap??? Im confused, is there somebody on babble who punishes posters that you dont like..


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 06 November 2003 12:10 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Crap.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2878

posted 06 November 2003 03:07 AM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel destroys US-built wells

quote:
By Justin Huggler in Jerusalem
05 November 2003

The US has reportedly complained after the Israeli army destroyed wells built for civilians in Gaza by an American government aid agency.

Huge areas have been demolished by the Israelis in the Gaza Strip in recent weeks, including more than 150 homes.

The wells had just been dug by the United States Agency for International Development (USAid). A few months ago the agency announced a $20m (£12m) project to rebuild infrastructure including roads, electricity supply lines and sewers in the occupied territories.

The agency was reporting good progress. But its workers were dismayed when they turned up to finish the wells and found that their work had been destroyed. A source at the American embassy said that when USAid complained, the Israelis told them that they demolished the wells because Palestinian militants had been hiding in them.

That has been a regular claim from the Israeli military to justify demolishing houses in Gaza - but in recent weeks whole streets have been knocked down. Israel has also been accused of trying to move refugee camps away from the border with Egypt.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
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posted 06 November 2003 03:11 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*cough*
As I've said on many occasions here, I go well fried with onions.

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 06 November 2003 11:50 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jewish settlers destroy olive groves

quote:
Jewish settlers have gone on a rampage in occupied West Bank towns and villages, hacking down hundreds of olive orchards just as they were about to be harvested.

Settlers uprooted, chopped and burned trees overnight in the villages of Sawia, Beta, Yitma, Bait Furik, Hawwara and Tal, said Palestinian witnesses on Wednesday.

One witness said Israeli soldiers in Tal, about six kilometres southwest of Nablus, fired into orchards, sparking a fire and leaving 200 trees charred.

Olive crops amount to up to 50% of the livelihood of Palestinians in some of these towns.

[snip]

An Israeli army spokesman confirmed that these incidents took place.

“The army has no right to arrest Israeli citizens, including the settlers,” he told Aljazeera’s correspondent in the West Bank, Khaled Amayreh, in response to a question why the army did not intervene.

When asked if this also applied if there were attacks on Palestinian civilians and vandalising their property he said: “Yes.”

Earlier this week, Jewish settlers from the Yitzhar settlement north of Nablus hacked down about 500 olive trees in Aynabus, some of which were hundreds of years old.



From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 06 November 2003 08:48 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

I suppose the hope is that the Palestinians will just dry up and blow away.


Dessicating Palestinians could become official Israeli policy:

quote:
"I see very great importance in making Arafat evaporate, and right away," Ron-Tal told the daily Ma'ariv in a holiday interview, illustrating the vulgar style that is spreading here. The content is even worse: if the commanding general is inciting against the Palestinian leader and likening him to an object, why shouldn't the soldier at the checkpoint treat Arafat's countrymen as though they are animals?

Who told the director of Military Intelligence, Major General Aharon Ze'evi (Farkash) to declare, "Better Palestinian mothers should cry and not Jewish mothers"?

[ 07 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 09 November 2003 12:34 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, is this thread still open at 175 posts?

Not anymore!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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