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Author Topic: Israel Is Losing By Richard Cohen
majorvictory
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posted 08 October 2003 12:26 PM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I talked recently with an American who had just returned from more than 20 years in Israel. We did not talk for the record, so I will withhold his name and what he does for a living. But I will say he is somewhat well-known in Israel and that he loves it dearly but he has left, probably permanently, because he cannot take life there any longer. He is a nonstatistic -- a living victim of terrorism.

quote:
How many others there are like him I cannot say. He has the most valuable of all commodities in this world, an American passport, and with much regret and with questions about his courage, he used it to get out. His business had gone to hell, his life was always in danger and he simply could not take it any longer.

In the perpetual war against Israel, its enemies are winning. The economy is awful. Parents do not want their children to go out. The beach is presumed safe, but not a cafe or restaurant. A commute on a bus (I have done it) is gut-wrenching. You watch everyone. What does a suicide bomber look like? The last one, the one who blew up a Haifa restaurant, was a 29-year-old woman, a law school graduate. She killed Arab and Jew alike. Even safe places are no longer safe.

So I cannot blame Israel for striking back. It assassinates Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders and militants. It razes the homes of suicide bombers. It has Yasser Arafat bottled up and may deport or kill him. It has bombed purported terrorist camps in Syria. But nothing Israel has done has brought it peace and security.

If you read the Israeli press, the despair is palpable. To some, especially those on the left, Israel has become virtually a dysfunctional society. The government can't protect its people. Corruption is endemic. Religious zealots have inordinate influence, and their vision, a Greater Israel, compels the building or thickening of West Bank and Gaza Strip settlements. With every suicide bombing, the rational course -- a withdrawal from Palestinian areas -- seems like weakness rather than wisdom.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 October 2003 01:19 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It assassinates Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders and militants. It razes the homes of suicide bombers. It has Yasser Arafat bottled up and may deport or kill him. It has bombed purported terrorist camps in Syria. But nothing Israel has done has brought it peace and security.

Gee whiz. No kidding?

What's the common denominator in their attempts at finding peace and security?

Why, engaging in violence and threatening the security of others.

How do they expect to find peace by waging war?

[ 08 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 08 October 2003 02:16 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"if we have to burn Damascus and Beirut to put an end to all this, once and for all, so be it."

--Transportation Minister Avigdor Lieberman



http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=50759

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 08 October 2003 02:23 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes, the suicide bombers feel they represent
their society. That's their strength. They
represent their society's sense that it's no
use living under the occupation, with the
terrible weakness against the Israeli military
power, the impotence as they watch their land
vandalized and degraded, the rage over the
stupidity of the Palestinian leadership. They
are willingly represented by the vengeance.

Amira Hass


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 08 October 2003 03:28 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=50759

Remember, Leiberman is well within the mainstream.

Imagine Abbas, or Arafat, or Habash or any other Palestinian leader saying, "If we have to burn Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, then so be it..."

Gallons of ink and kilowatts worth of bandwidth would be required to handle the outcry that "this time, they have gone to far!" "They are a violent and unrepentent lot..." "The Arabs are intransigent..."

Feh. Let's see how our yellow press deal with this. This morning I heard Cable Pulse 24 say something to the effect of, "Sharon's cabinet met for the first time since a suicide bombing in Haifa on Saturday." I kept listening, the entire soundbite ended with no mention of an aggressive illegal attack against a sovereign state by Israel under utterly suspicious justification. From the front pages to the memory hole in just a few short days, I guess.

We'll see if this Leiberman character's latest war-mongering (perhaps Sharon can appear as a 'man of peace' next to these guys) is even picked up on this side of the world.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 08 October 2003 05:16 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"if we have to burn Damascus and Beirut to put an end to all this, once and for all, so be it."

--Transportation Minister Avigdor Lieberman

I hope there will be a call for Lieberman's dismissal from Jewish organizations in North America. But I won't hold my breath.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 08 October 2003 05:50 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If Lieberman isn't dismissed for being violent, he should be dismissed for being criminally stupid. Doesn't he realise how many people live in Damascus and Beirut? And how many relatives they have abroad?

A neighbourhood of Montréal, in Ville Saint-Laurent, is known as "Little Beirut" - one of several districts here with a huge Lebanese population. Our city is blessed with very large Jewish and Arab populations (neck and neck as the most educated ethnic groups here, by the way). I do NOT want to see them at each other's throats.

By the way, I can never read Washington Post articles. The sign-in function never works for me. I've also tried signing in with the address and zipcode of a USian friend, and that doesn't work either. That article looks interesting.

Mr Cohen is right about Israelis (and Palestinians who can) trying to emigrate. I would dispute what he says about a US passport, perhaps, as an EU passport is just as sought-after nowadays - there are even a sizeable number of Israelis of German descent returning to the land that hounded their grandparents out upon pain of death.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 08 October 2003 05:58 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
[qb]

Gee whiz. No kidding?

What's the common denominator in their attempts at finding peace and security?

Why, engaging in violence and threatening the security of others.

How do they expect to find peace by waging war?

-----------------

Have you asked the same of the Palestinians?

[ 08 October 2003: Message edited by: EarthShadow ]


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 October 2003 06:14 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
he "trembles at night knowing that Minister Lieberman, with his crazy ideas, is sitting in the government and has more than a little influence."

No shit.

We should all be trembling at Mr Lieberman's words.

And I also will be watching to see whether any of our blenderized news sources pick up on this problem. Problem it is. Mr Lieberman and his "crazy ideas" (and vile if usefully direct way of putting them) have been feted in USian fundamentalist Christian circles this year, and he has no doubt had his face-time with policy-makers in Washington.

Beirut. Damascus.

We might as well just weep for the whole human species right now.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 08 October 2003 10:46 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
[qb]

Gee whiz. No kidding?

What's the common denominator in their attempts at finding peace and security?

Why, engaging in violence and threatening the security of others.

How do they expect to find peace by waging war?

-----------------

Have you asked the same of the Palestinians?

[ 08 October 2003: Message edited by: EarthShadow ]


It's the comparison of retail and wholesale terrorism, my friend. Israel's war-making ability, and her control over the most relevent economic, political and military resources that shape this conflict dwarfs that of the Palestinian leadership, let alone the everyday Palestinian.

There are waves, and there are eddies - suicide bombers are an eddy...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 09 October 2003 12:16 AM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Hey, Eddy catch the wave. Of Jewish kids splashed on wholesail Jewish walls. Or is that Palestinian retail kids splashed on Palestinian walls.?

Such a material calculation.

Well, see you in ten years, O wait, I could be dead by then....

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: EarthShadow ]


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
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posted 09 October 2003 12:25 AM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If Mr. Lieberman's words are offensive to some, they are mild compared to the words coming out of Arab countries and Iran. Iran has already threatened to nuke Israel, Syria is at war with Israel and uses their proxies in Lebanon Hezbollah to fight their battles. There was no outcry from anybody when Hezbollah rockets attacked Israel killing a 16 year old boy.

The hypocrisy of the Israel bashers boggles the mind. Has anybody wondered whether Mr. Arar was released by Syria because they were hoping Canada would support their attempts to smear Israel at the UN (If Arar was still in Syrian custody, Canada would be less likely to vote along with the usual bloc at the UN General Assembly).


From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 October 2003 12:32 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:
[QB]Hey, Eddy catch the wave. Of Jewish kids splashed on wholesail Jewish walls. Or is that Palestinian retail kids splashed on Palestinian walls.?

Such a material calculation.


What a lame response. As I've said elsewhere, noone is politically guiltless. I have no problem condemning what I see to be pointless and immoral behaviour.

That said, the conflict IS material - it happens in the world, and is driven by resources, and dollars, and people who have a materiality. One can easily play the game of 'blame everyone' but when coming to solutions to political problems we must look at the material power relations which exist at this point. Israel has control over the most important resources (be they political capital, money, arms) which determine the power relationship with the Palestinians, and the scope and shape of the conflict. There is a massive power differential in this conflict. To stop it, that power differential must be made clear, and appropriate solutions tendered.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 09 October 2003 12:35 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peacefulnotion:
If Mr. Lieberman's words are offensive to some, they are mild compared to the words coming out of Arab countries and Iran. Iran has already threatened to nuke Israel, Syria is at war with Israel and uses their proxies in Lebanon Hezbollah to fight their battles. There was no outcry from anybody when Hezbollah rockets attacked Israel killing a 16 year old boy.

The hypocrisy of the Israel bashers boggles the mind. Has anybody wondered whether Mr. Arar was released by Syria because they were hoping Canada would support their attempts to smear Israel at the UN (If Arar was still in Syrian custody, Canada would be less likely to vote along with the usual bloc at the UN General Assembly).


Huh, huh.

Iramn has no nuclear weapoon. Israel does. Has Israel ever declared a no first use of its weapons of mass destruction? No?

Is threatening to turn Damascas and Beirut into flames a threat of nuclear war or how else do you incinerate a city?

Hypocrite. Indeed.

Israeli apologists are always telling us how Palestinians are taught to hate Israel.

But then when membersof the Israeli government demonstrate they have learnbed well to hate Palestinians and threaten the mass extermination of entire Arab cities, well, the apologists offer not outrage but more aplogies.

Yes. A hypocrite.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 October 2003 12:38 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peacefulnotion:
[QB]If Mr. Lieberman's words are offensive to some, they are mild compared to the words coming out of Arab countries and Iran. Iran has already threatened to nuke Israel, Syria is at war with Israel and uses their proxies in Lebanon Hezbollah to fight their battles. There was no outcry from anybody when Hezbollah rockets attacked Israel killing a 16 year old boy.

Actually, there is routinely such condemnation.

quote:
The hypocrisy of the Israel bashers boggles the mind.

As does yours - apparently you want Hezbollah and Syria held to a different standard than Israel.

Fuck that.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
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posted 09 October 2003 12:49 AM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Iran is desperately trying to acquire nuclear weapons.

Perhaps Dan Gillerman's speech to the UN speaks to the depravity that Israel faces:

This meeting of the Security Council is being convened within hours of Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, which is the holiest day of the Jewish calendar. I deeply regret that the Council could not meet after this most important religious day so as to allow Israel to participate fully in the debate. I will, unfortunately, have to leave this meeting after I make my statement in order to observe this holy day. Yesterday, a Palestinian suicide bomber entered a crowded beachfront restaurant in the port city of Haifa, murdering 19 innocent civilians and wounding at least 60 others. The restaurant — a symbol of Arab-Israeli coexistence, as is the city of Haifa — was frequented by Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel alike, and among the victims were four Israeli Arabs, three children and a little baby girl. Five victims were members of the same family and three were members of another family. Whole families were wiped out by that horrendous act, taking place on the Jewish sabbath on a quiet, peaceful beachfront in the city of Haifa.

Islamic Jihad, a terrorist organization that operates freely from Palestinian Authority territory and has headquarters in Damascus, Syria, proudly claimed responsibility for this massacre. Islamic Jihad is an organization committed to the destruction of Israel through holy war and which engages in the deliberate and widespread murder of innocents to that end. It opposes moderate Arab Governments and actively supports terrorist attacks against Western targets. There could not be a more obvious example of a terrorist organization...

Safe harbour and training facilities are provided throughout Syria for terrorist organizations such as Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Hizbollah, both in separate facilities and in Syrian army bases. The Ein Saheb base, which was targeted in Israel’s measured defensive operation today, is just one of those facilities sponsored by Syria and Iran. Recruits at camps such as Ein Saheb come from Islamic Jihad, Hamas and other terrorist groups. They are taught how to assemble bombs, conduct kidnapping, prepare suicide belts, gather intelligence and establish terrorist cells. Some have also received aviation instruction. Recruits training at those camps are slated to return to Palestinian Authority territory and other areas to set up cells and conduct terrorist operations.

Syria has itself facilitated and directed acts of terrorism by coordination and briefings via phone and Internet and by calling activists to Damascus for consultations and briefings. Three such operatives — Tarek Az Aldin, Ali Saffuri and Taabat Mardawi — have been identified under investigation as specifically designated liaisons for relaying instructions between officials in Damascus and terrorist cells in the West Bank and Gaza. Mr. Mardawi himself has admitted involvement in many attacks, including a bus bombing in Haifa in May 2001, a suicide attack at a restaurant in Kiryat Motzkin in August of that year and an attack on a bus near Nazareth in March 2002.

Another example comes from an intelligence report provided by the Head of the Palestinian Preventative Security Apparatus on 31 October 2001, which asserts that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hizbollah were meeting in Damascus “in order to increase their joint acitivity ... with the aid of Iranian money”. Instructions are also given to halt terrorist activity when it suits Syrian or Iranian interests to avoid the spotlight, such as following the terrorist attacks of 11 September in the United States. It is very strange that Syria decided to be in the spotlight today and actually put itself in the dock on this very day, after these actions.

Iran, through the use of the Syrian and Palestinian banking systems, sustains a systematic money transfer system, and large sums of money have been transferred to Islamic Jihad as well as other terrorists organizations through Damascus for the planning and perpetration of attacks. Mr. Shallah himself, the Secretary-General of Islamic Jihad, is known to have transferred funds in the hundreds of thousands of dollars from Damascus to the individual accounts of Islamic Jihad operatives such as Bassani ak-Saadi, who is responsible for Islamic Jihad financing in Jenin.

Syria uses its State-run media and official institutions to glorify and encourage suicide bombings against civilians in restaurants, schools, commuter buses and shopping malls. To mention but a few examples, Radio Damascus — far from being a free radio — in a broadcast on 9 May 2002 lauded “the wonderful and special suicide attacks which were executed by some of the sons of the Palestinian nation”. In another State-run announcement on 1 January 2002, Damascus Radio declared “The entire world knows that Syria, its political leadership and its Arab people...have turned Syrian Arab soil into a training camp, a safe haven and an arms depot for the Palestinian revolutionaries.” And on 13 May 2002, President Bashar Assad himself announced in reference to so-called acts of resistance “If I was not President of Syria I wouldn’t hesitate to participate in them.” This was not said by Osama bin Laden or by Saddam Hussain, but by a President of a State that is a member of this Council. Syria has also played host to a number of conferences in which senior terrorist operatives from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other organizations meet.

Syria has facilitated the transfer of arms to Palestinian terrorist organizations such as Islamic Jihad by allowing the transfer of sophisticated weapons from Iran to Hizbollah through Syrian territory. Hizbollah, itself a vicious terrorist organization, has then sought to smuggle those arms to Palestinian terrorist groups, as was evidenced in the Karine A arms shipment and similar incidents...

The Syrian delegate speaks a great deal about socalled resistance. Perhaps he can tell us precisely, without his familiar diplomatic word games and misrepresentations, how exactly the murder of children and babies in a restaurant is an act of legitimate resistance. Or perhaps he could tell us how the Syrians themselves have dealt with resistance, such as in the case of Hama, in which some 10,000 Syrian civilians were murdered by the Syrian armed forces...

In the face of the rejectionism, aggression and terrorist sponsorship of the Syrian regime, together with Iran and the Palestinian Authority, what would the international community have us do? Like any State faced with such a critical and prolonged threat, Israel must exercise its inherent right and obligation to defend its citizens. What can we tell the Arab and Israeli mothers of children murdered in this weekend’s attack in Haifa? Should we say, “We could have prevented the death of your son or daughter. We could have stopped a terrorist from walking into your town, your school, your home, your bedroom — but our hands were tied”? Israel remains committed to a peaceful solution to the Middle East conflict and is ready to make painful compromises to that end. But no peace can come while terrorism prospers. No negotiations can bring progress, while our citizens die on the streets.

Syria (and occupied Lebanon) are the enemy of Israel and while they orchestrate the death of innocent Israelis, Israel has the right to strike back like the allies bombed the cities of the Nazis in WWII.

And this is the reaction to the death of 19 Jews and Arabs including 5 children by the family of the genocidal suicide bomber:

Jaradat had always been religious, fasting twice a week in a sign of piety. After the killings, she fasted during daylight hours every day. She began reading the Quran as well.

Jaradat, who had finished her legal studies in Jordan five years ago, was supposed to finish her required apprenticeship next week before qualifying as a lawyer, her family said.

They were shocked to hear she was responsible for the bombing, "but we are receiving congratulations from people," Thaher Jaradat said.

"Why should we cry? It is like her wedding today, the happiest day for her," he said.

And Wingnut, you support this movement...shame. shame. shame.


From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 October 2003 12:53 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And this is the reaction to the death of 19 Jews and Arabs including 5 children by the family of the genocidal suicide bomber

Paging Mishei...


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 09 October 2003 12:56 AM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If Mr. Lieberman's words are offensive to some, they are mild compared to the words coming out of Arab countries and Iran

Don't you know that when they say "Death to Israel" what they really mean is "Yes to a secular, multi-ethnic democracy where both muslims and jews can live together in respect and peace"? It's true. I read it here on babble.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
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posted 09 October 2003 12:59 AM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And courage, what is Israel being condemned for -- bombing a terrorist training camp in Syria with no casualties.

The Palestinian terrorists, Hezbollah and their kin at Al Qaeda seek to kill as many innocent children, women and men as possible. The more they kill the happier they are.

Israel is seeking to neutralize these terrorist murderers. Israel does not seek to kill innocent children, women and men and will often put its soldiers at great risk to minimize civilian casualties. Of course that is not always possible but name one other nation under siege that managed to fight a war while killing no innocents.

I don't hold Hezbollah or Syria to a higher standard than Israel -- one is a terrorist organization who seeks the murder of Jews quite openly (no matter how tightly you may shut your eyes) and the other supports terrorism and massacres its own citizens (Hama).

It's unfortunate how many Progressives have turned our cause into one of supporting the bad guys in a conflict -- we support the side that discriminates against women, homosexuals, non-Moslems, freedom of speech, starves the people while the leaders and insiders live lavishly. To them, the whole Israel thing is an opiate for the masses -- a distraction so that they won't consider the unfairness of their own lives. It's mind boggling the anti-semitism that exists in the Middle East. And too many Progressives fail to see that -- a democratic, secular state for Jews and Arabs is as much a pipe dream as Hamilton getting an NFL team. It's a two state solution and that won't happen until the Palestinians accept that one of the states will be a predominantly Jewish state and one will be predominantly Palestinian.


From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 09 October 2003 01:04 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Such blatnat racism. This is what mishei is always apologising for. This is what the defenders of the middle-eat apartheid state have to offer. Stereotypes and open racism.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 09 October 2003 01:07 AM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's unfortunate how many Progressives have turned our cause into one of supporting the bad guys in a conflict -- we support the side that discriminates against women, homosexuals, non-Moslems, freedom of speech, starves the people while the leaders and insiders live lavishly.

Yes, and that's one of the clearest indications that Israel is losing. But many of our own people starve while our leaders and insiders live lavishly too.

Can there really be any doubt though? Israel is losing.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 October 2003 01:19 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peacefulnotion:
[QB]And courage, what is Israel being condemned for -- bombing a terrorist training camp in Syria with no casualties.

Suspected terrorist training camp. Even still, it is a violation of the airspace of, and an aggressive attack against, a sovereign state.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
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posted 09 October 2003 01:21 AM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah Wingnut, you pull out the old racism label. Well here are some quotes from those peace-loving, democracy seeking political and religious leaders:

“They [the Jews] try to kill the principle of religions with the same mentality that they betrayed Jesus Christ and the same way they tried to betray and kill the Prophet Mohammed.”

— Syrian President Bashar Assad at May 5 welcoming ceremony for the Pope
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, May 6, 2001


“It is not a mistake that the Koran warns us of the hatred of the Jews and put them at the top of the list of the enemies of Islam. Today the Jews recruit the world against the Muslims and use all kinds of weapons. They are plundering the dearest place to the Muslims, after Mecca and Medina and threaten the place the Muslims have faced at first when they prayed and the third holiest city after Mecca and Medina. They want to erect their temple on that place....The Muslims are ready to sacrifice their lives and blood to protect the Islamic nature of Jerusalem and al-Aksa!”

— Sheikh Hian Al-Adrisi,
Excerpt of address in the al-Aksa mosque, September 29, 2000

“The Jews are Jews, whether Labour or Likud, the Jews are Jews. They do not have any moderates or any advocates of peace. They are all liars. They are the ones who must be butchered and killed. As Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them.' Allah will torture them by your hands and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them, and will relieve the minds of the believers. ... Our people must unite in one trench, and receive armaments from the Palestinian leadership to confront the Jews. ... Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Whenever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them — and those who stand with them — they are all in one trench, against the Arabs and the Muslims — because they established Israel here, in the beating heart of the Arab world, in Palestine. They created it in order that it be the outpost of their civilization — and the vanguard of their army, and to be the sword of the West and the Crusaders, hanging over the necks of the Muslim monotheists, the Muslims in this land. They wanted the Jews to be the spearhead for them...”

— Dr Ahmad Abu-Halabia, a member of the "Fatwa Council"
appointed by the Palestinian Authority and the
former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza,
delivered in the Zayd bin Sultan Nahyan mosque in Gaza
on October 13, 2000, the day after the lynching of the Israeli
reservists in Ramallah, and carried live on Palestinian television

“Thanks to Hitler, blessed memory, who on behalf of the Palestinians, revenged in advance, against the most vile criminals on the face of the earth. Although we do have a complaint against him for his revenge on them was not enough.”

— Columnist Ahmad Ragab
Al-Akhbar (Egypt), April 18, 2001

“All weapons must be aimed at the Jews, at the enemies of Allah...whom the Koran describes as monkeys and pigs, worshippers of the calf and idol worshippers. Allah shall make the Moslem rule over the Jew, we will blow them up in Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel Aviv and in Netanya in the righteousness of Allah against this rif-raff.....We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, and Jaffa as conquerors, and Haifa as conquerors and Ashkelon as conquerors...we bless all those who educate their children to jihad and to Martyrdom, blessing be he who shot a bullet into the head of a Jew.”

— Sermon broadcast on Palestinian Authority television, August 3, 2001

“All signs unequivocally prove that the conflict between the Jews and the Muslims is an eternal on-going conflict, even if it stops for short intervals.... This conflict resembles the conflict between man and Satan.... This is the fate of the Muslim nation, and beyond that the fate of all the nations of the world, to be tormented by this nation [the Jews]. The fate of the Palestinian people is to struggle against the Jews on behalf of the Arab peoples, the Islamic peoples and the peoples of the entire worlds.”

— Al-Hayat Al-Jadeeda quoted in The New Republic Online, October 30, 2001

“O God, the Jews have transgressed all limits in their tyranny. O God, shake the ground under their feet, pour torture on them, and destroy all of them.”

— Sheikh Abd-al-Bari al-Thubayt, June 7, 2002, sermon at the Holy Mosque of Medina, broadcast on official Saudi television

“The Jewish nation, it is known, from the dawn of history, from the time Allah created them, lives by scheme and deceit.”

— PA Communications Minister, Imud Falouji
Palestinian television, August 8, 2002

“We know that the Jews have manipulated the Sept. 11 incidents and turned American public opinion against Arabs and Muslims....We still ask ourselves: Who has benefited from Sept. 11 attacks? I think they (the Jews) were the protagonists of such attacks.”

— Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef in Assyasah (Kuwait)
translation from Saudi magazine 'Ain-Al-Yaqin, November 29, 2002

BTW Wingnut, where was the racism in my post -- Is Syria a bastion of democracy, is Saudi Arabia a holiday haven for Christians and Jews, is Sudan leading the charge against slavery? As I said before Wingnut: Shame, shame, shame.


From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 October 2003 01:26 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shall we generalise about Jews based on the comments of, say, Gen. Moshe Yallon, or Rabbi Ovidia Yossef, or Ben-Gurion, or perhaps Weizmann, or Golda Meir?
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 October 2003 01:34 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It must be awfully quiet under the bridges this evening...
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 October 2003 03:00 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Check out these swell links:

ADL...don't they support Italian fascists?

But there's more!

Why not mention David Ahenakew while you're at it? Then you can say the Cree Nation wants to drive the Jews into the sea as well.

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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Babbler # 3391

posted 09 October 2003 05:55 AM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Oh, peacefulnotion, don't you know that babble is only for the preach to the converted, hate Israel hallelujah chorus?
what were you thinking, geez, some people.....

From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 09 October 2003 06:08 AM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:
It must be awfully quiet under the bridges this evening...

Yep ,they've all logged on to babble...


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 October 2003 09:43 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peacefulnotion, oh ye of too many words, up above you call Wingy a "supporter" of a movement that sends out suicide bombers. Wingy has made it clear over many many months on babble that he is no such thing.

Gee, I just hate writing to the mods, but do that again, to any of us, and I will. That is a dangerous charge in this place and time, and you will cut it out. Ok?

PS: I checked the Grope this a.m. No mention of Mr Lieberman's words yesterday.

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 09 October 2003 12:28 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Uh-oh Peacefulnotion...skdadl's gonna tell the teacher on you! Better stick to throwing accusations of racism around, that's allowed.
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 09 October 2003 01:14 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by worker_drone:
Uh-oh Peacefulnotion...skdadl's gonna tell the teacher on you! Better stick to throwing accusations of racism around, that's allowed.
I think hatefulnotion doesn't realize that those on babble who condem Israeli policy and the atrocities committed by this democratic state on the occupied Palestinian people, are also the same people who condem suicide attacks on Israeli's.

As you lurk out of the shawdow's hatefulnotion your true face is anti-Arabism/anti-Islamic with no condemnation of your facist Israeli/US government. Try taking your hate elsewhere because it's not welcome here on babble.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 09 October 2003 01:27 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by hatefulnotion:
Is Syria a bastion of democracy, is Saudi Arabia a holiday haven for Christians and Jews, is Sudan leading the charge against slavery? As I said before Wingnut: Shame, shame, shame.
BTW, this is the product of colonialism, as started out by the British. You know damn well that there is no interest of democracy in the middle East. First it serves Israel's aplorable case, second, do you really want the people in the middle east to have a voice? I would think not, because it will NOT serve the Americans-Jewish-Christian fundamentalism interest in any way shape or form.

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 09 October 2003 03:41 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by worker_drone:
Uh-oh Peacefulnotion...skdadl's gonna tell the teacher on you! Better stick to throwing accusations of racism around, that's allowed.


When they can be substantiated, yes. You shouldn't be afraid of a little scupulousness in dealing with issues of racism. Certainly you have nothing to fear from the high sensitivity to these issues around these parts....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged

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