babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Another one CONT

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Another one CONT
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 06 October 2003 10:35 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So Al Qu'Bong in part 1 of this closed thread disputes the fact, known historically by anyone who reads, that the fedayeen murdered hundreds of Israelis in terrorist attacks in the i950s.

Here is a list (by an Israeli source but if you dispute its historical truth PROVE IT WRONG) by map of the attacks in question.

Fedayeen terror attacks 1951-56

[ 06 October 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Babbler # 3804

posted 06 October 2003 10:41 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now I'm not going to outright deny the truth of the Fedayeen raids, but something about the source coming from "The department for Jewish Zionist Education" makes me think that it is something less than objective...
From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 06 October 2003 11:10 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gir, I think you'll find objectivity in this context pretty hard to come by unless you do a pretty thorough search. There's a lot of emotion on both sides.

FWIW, this page seems to confirm the gist of Mishei's post in terms of the time period and the casualty counts. It's ultimately sponsored by an organization called the Jewish Internet Association so it's certainly not going to represent the Palestinian viewpoint, but it appears to strive for historical accuracy.

Edit: This part is interesting:

quote:
The fedayeen operated from bases in the territories surrounding Israel: Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan. They were trained and equipped, primarily by Egyptian Intelligence, to engage in hostile action on the border and infiltrate Israel to commit acts of sabotage and murder. The fedayeen operated mainly from locations in Jordan, so that Jordan would bear the brunt of Israel's retaliation, which inevitably followed.

Emphasis added.

[ 06 October 2003: Message edited by: Slim ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 06 October 2003 11:12 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
Now I'm not going to outright deny the truth of the Fedayeen raids, but something about the source coming from "The department for Jewish Zionist Education" makes me think that it is something less than objective...
The source may be less than objective but truth is truth. I urge you to check any history of the time and era.

Here are more sources to back up the original.

source 1

Source 2...Israel's Border Wars 1949-1956: Arab Infiltration, Israeli Retaliation, and the Countdown to the Suez War: By, Benny Morris


Source 3


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 06 October 2003 11:48 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Grabbing at straws again.

It is unfortunate that so many Israel defenders stick their head in the sand as to the reality of the injustices done to the Palistinians in the believe that they help Israel. As if one more invasion or bombing run or check-point is going to solve the problem. We have been there so many times. These stats. so obviously show the injustice, what else can one expect when life in Israel is so skewd.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 07 October 2003 12:14 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Even though the dates you gave aren't the same as those of your sources (which themselves contradicted each other in at least one instance) that wasn't so hard, was it Mish?

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 07 October 2003 11:52 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Even though the dates you gave aren't the same as those of your sources (which themselves contradicted each other in at least one instance) that wasn't so hard, was it Mish?

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


Al have you ever done your own research or did you pay for someonelse to write your exams?

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 07 October 2003 12:22 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You missed the point, but what else is new?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 09 October 2003 10:23 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Strange. I've been hearing on the news this morning that there has been another suicide bombing this morning - a woman blew herself up at a military checkpoint, with two injuries (apparently no other deaths, if I heard right). But I can't find it anywhere on the CBC site, even though they reported it on Newsworld, and the Glob site doesn't have it either despite their constant rolling updates.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 09 October 2003 10:29 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is this what you're referring to, Michelle?

quote:
A suicide bomber, apparently a woman, detonated explosives Thursday at an Israeli army office in the West Bank where Palestinians apply for permits to cross roadblocks, the army said.

The explosion killed the attacker, seriously wounded one Israeli and lightly wounded another Israeli and one Palestinian, paramedics said.



From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 09 October 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, thank you! That's the one. Wonder why CBC and the Glob aren't carrying it. Not enough death to be "newsworthy" perhaps? Strange.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 09 October 2003 04:36 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And yet another attack at where innocent Palestinians also gather. Sad and disturbing development.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 09 October 2003 05:15 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And yet another attack at where innocent Palestinians also gather

The IRA used to use the same tactic in Northern Ireland. "Sorry to have blown up so many catholics in that latest bombing, but we warned them not congregate near the British. It's their own fault really and maybe they'll think twice before shopping in a loyalist district".


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 09 October 2003 05:23 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
And yet another attack at where innocent Palestinians also gather. Sad and disturbing development.

Why do Palestinians have to gather there, I wonder? Maybe because it's also a military target full of not-so-innocent IDF troops who busy themselves disrupting Palestinian lives and denigrating Palestinians because they are ethnically unfit to belong in Jewish Israel. But we wouldn't want to mention the Occupation, would we?

Naaaaah....it's just a coincidence....

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
RookieActivist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4089

posted 09 October 2003 06:54 PM      Profile for RookieActivist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Why do Palestinians have to gather there, I wonder? Maybe because it's also a military target full of not-so-innocent IDF troops who busy themselves disrupting Palestinian lives and denigrating Palestinians because they are ethnically unfit to belong in Jewish Israel. But we wouldn't want to mention the Occupation, would we?

Naaaaah....it's just a coincidence....


Holy flamebaiting Batman!


From: me to you | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 09 October 2003 07:11 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RookieActivist:

Holy flamebaiting Batman!


If you think so. I think that such aggressiveness is the only response to the myopia of our local Israeli apologists who continue to talk of suicide bombings (even those taking place in one of the diodes of the Occupation) as contextless and unrelated to the Occupation itself...

Mishei's concern, "wow, there were some Palestinians in the area too, so that must mean that the suicide bombers are just savages prepared to kill 'their own'..." The subtext with this particular apologist for the Occupation is that the Palestinian national struggle should be characterised based on these desperate actions of violence.

Perhaps their actions are 'savage' but I really see very little to morally distinguish them from the technocratic administrative violence that the checkpoints represent. The technique is less slick and 'civilised' but people's lives -- and more importantly, their humanity -- are (is) destroyed by both techniques nonetheless.

Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. They proceeded through the 1970's and early 80's to use the areas as a source of cheap labour and as a crossover site for blackmarkets in order to break the surrounding Arab states' boycott of Israeli goods. Meanwhile, they cordoned off all the water resources and rationed them in small doses to the local population while diverting most to illegal settlements and into Israel proper.

Palestinians were used as transient migrant workers in Israel at low wages and without recourse to legal labour organisation and grievance redress, and forced to pay taxes to Israel while living under a military occupational government which not only discriminated against them on the basis of ethnicity but ensured that they were utterly disenfranchised politically. The situation couldn't hold, as any contradiction involving such rampant exploitation cannot, and the first Intifada was launched. Rabin's response was to 'break their bones'. What happens now is the fruit of that poisoned tree.

That is what the checkpoints represent...Apartheid.

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 09 October 2003 07:37 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What happens now is the fruit of that poisoned tree.

Israel poisoned Palestinian fruit trees? Now that's just plain dirty!


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
cynic
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2857

posted 09 October 2003 07:57 PM      Profile for cynic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I don't know of any poisoned trees (and I know w_d was just being a jerk) but the Israelis love ripping olive tree groves up that the Palestinians try to grow.

Poison Policies


From: Calgary, unfortunately | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 09 October 2003 08:01 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, this was an attack against an Israeli military target . . . surely this is an accetable response to an occupying force!!

But I guess it is better for the apopogists to ignore this little fact and try to deflect the story so it reads as though it was an attack directed at innocent civilians . . . can't let anyone think this was an actual justified attack against an occupying force now could we!!??


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 09 October 2003 08:19 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, I don't know of any poisoned trees (and I know w_d was just being a jerk) but the Israelis love ripping olive tree groves up that the Palestinians try to grow.

Maybe the Israelis are just ripping up poisoned olive trees so that people won't hurt themselves by eating the poison olives. Didja ever think of that before jumping to your stereotypical conclusions? Huh? Well did you? It's just "those darn Israelis...first they're poisoning trees, now they're ripping them up".


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 09 October 2003 08:31 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Worker_drone, may I compliment you on your great effort to ensure that you are worthy of being taken seriously?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 09 October 2003 08:40 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Well if there's one thing these middle east forums need, it's more seriousness.
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 09 October 2003 09:49 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*WOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!*
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 10 October 2003 12:34 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

If you think so. I think that such aggressiveness is the only response to the myopia of our local Israeli apologists who continue to talk of suicide bombings (even those taking place in one of the diodes of the Occupation) as contextless and unrelated to the Occupation itself...

Mishei's concern, "wow, there were some Palestinians in the area too, so that must mean that the suicide bombers are just savages prepared to kill 'their own'..." The subtext with this particular apologist for the Occupation is that the Palestinian national struggle should be characterised based on these desperate actions of violence.

Perhaps their actions are 'savage' but I really see very little to morally distinguish them from the technocratic administrative violence that the checkpoints represent. The technique is less slick and 'civilised' but people's lives -- and more importantly, their humanity -- are (is) destroyed by both techniques nonetheless.

Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. They proceeded through the 1970's and early 80's to use the areas as a source of cheap labour and as a crossover site for blackmarkets in order to break the surrounding Arab states' boycott of Israeli goods. Meanwhile, they cordoned off all the water resources and rationed them in small doses to the local population while diverting most to illegal settlements and into Israel proper.

Palestinians were used as transient migrant workers in Israel at low wages and without recourse to legal labour organisation and grievance redress, and forced to pay taxes to Israel while living under a military occupational government which not only discriminated against them on the basis of ethnicity but ensured that they were utterly disenfranchised politically. The situation couldn't hold, as any contradiction involving such rampant exploitation cannot, and the first Intifada was launched. Rabin's response was to 'break their bones'. What happens now is the fruit of that poisoned tree.

That is what the checkpoints represent...Apartheid.

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


Unbelievable, comparing checkpoint abuses with mass murder...

If that is your position I now fully understand why moral relativism is meaningless to you. My dear God!!!


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 10 October 2003 01:10 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Unbelievable, comparing checkpoint abuses with mass murder...

If that is your position I now fully understand why moral relativism is meaningless to you. My dear God!!!


This last sentence seems to demonstrate that you don't know what moral relativism is. Though if it is your intent to charge me with same, you miss my point entirely. I do see the abuses of the occupation as part and parcel with suicide bombings. I consider the death toll of both Palestinians and Israelis together as one net result of the occupation and Israel's horrific policies.

But, you never miss a chance to miss a point, do you? The point is that suicide bombings are part and parcel of a bigger picture, which includes not only checkpoints, but assasinations (which are just as often mass murder due to the 'accidental' deaths of bystanders), torture, bulldozed homes, dead children and destroyed families. Oh, and there are cases of flat-out mass murder when rockets fly into residential neighbourhoods, or tank shells careen through the walls of homes. Sometimes 'checkpoint abuses' are murder, Mishei, as in the well-recorded cases of ambulances being stopped and their sick and/or pregnant passengers dying.

No, Mishei, I'm no relativist, I'm perfectly capable of seeing where the real moral responsibility for this mess lies.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 10 October 2003 02:51 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Unbelievable, comparing checkpoint abuses with mass murder...

If that is your position I now fully understand why moral relativism is meaningless to you. My dear God!!!


Mishei, your stubborn insistence on being dogmatic, reactionary, and willing to blow anything and everything out of proportion in order to derail honest discussion is so bloody transparent it's a wonder you still do the same thing over and over and over.

Courage clearly compared the checkpoint abuses and related humiliations visited on the Palestinian-Arab population to the South African apartheid system, which was not, of course, mass murder.

However, it could be classified as genocide by the long-term effect of displacing the victim populations. Why do I say this?

It should be noted that under the definiton of genocide,

quote:
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

that these two most clearly encompass the actions South Africa and Israel were committing.

We may recall that widespread lack of concern given to IDF officers exercising their powers over Palestinian-Arab civilians has led to an equally widespread simmering of reports over systematic injuries inflicted on Palestinian-Arabs.

The conditions of life are also clearly calculated to disrupt the normal functioning of Palestinian-Arab society and its economy. When Arafat has been put under siege twice in two years, and when extensive damage has been done to the computers and filing systems of the Palestinian "Authority", can the government of the PA be said to have any effective power whatsoever? Only insofar as Arafat can give the orders.

If Arafat dies, who gives the orders? Who has sufficient prestige to negotiate with the more extremist and reactionary elements of Palestinian-Arab society? If you think Hamas's current round of suicide bombings is bad, what do you think will happen when Arafat dies and his successor lacks the prestige and charisma needed to use popular opinion to back up his words into Hamas's ear to knock it off?

Now, if Arafat dies of old age, that's one thing. But if Israeli soldiers ever kill him, or if people even suspect that the cancer Arafat has was induced by a Mossad agent, you can bet your last dollar that people in Hamas will use that as the justification for suicide bombings that'll make what happened before then look like positive normality.

I've sidetracked quite a bit, but to get back to the point, it's as Courage says. Use your brain for once instead of just being a tape-recorder I could push play on and get the same effective results.

[ 10 October 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 10 October 2003 08:36 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I've sidetracked quite a bit, but to get back to the point, it's as Courage says. Use your brain for once instead of just being a tape-recorder I could push play on and get the same effective results.


The refuge of last resort accuse someone of stupidity...Doc et al, sticks and stones, sticks and stones......

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 10 October 2003 10:53 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, you seem to be saying that checkpoint abuses are ok because they aren't mass murder.

Maybe just the odd little murder, here and there, but not mass murder.

The ethical problems of that position, it seems to me, go 'way beyond any discussion of moral relativism.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 10 October 2003 12:29 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Doc et al, sticks and stones, sticks and stones......

quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
You are an ASSHOLE......ASSHOLE

Sweetness and light, sweetness and light.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 10 October 2003 01:32 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Mishei, you seem to be saying that checkpoint abuses are ok because they aren't mass murder.

Maybe just the odd little murder, here and there, but not mass murder.

The ethical problems of that position, it seems to me, go 'way beyond any discussion of moral relativism.


Dont you love it when people extrapolate what they want to believe from someone else's words?

No I did not say that checkpoint abuses are OK.I challenge you to demonstrate where I said any such thing.

Your reasons for trying to associate this to me is dark and disturbing. I have never advocated murder. The fact you would even try to intimate such a thing is IMHO a misguided attempt to demonize me personally. I expected better of you Skdadl...guess I was wrong.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 10 October 2003 02:08 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, my point is that I don't believe in the kinds of comparisons that you continue to make.

I don't believe that there is a trade-off in human tragedy. I deeply do not.

I have spent my life listening to smart-mouthed guys telling me that social problems here don't matter a toot, given how much worse life is for ... whomever, anywhere.

And I know, we all know, that life is for sure much worse most everywhere else.

However: that position, the one you seem to take, has long since seemed to me a way of avoiding ever feeling any empathy at all for anyone else in misery, since the logic of your argument is that we should never waste our compassion on anyone until we can find the people who are the most miserable on earth. As far as I can determine, that would probably be people who live on the flood-plains of Bangladesh, but there are possibly other candidates.

I think a lot of things about that sort of logic. I shall restrain self from listing them here, although male would be high on the list. European would figure prominently.

You continually justify outrage against the dignity of living human beings, Mishei, by claiming that there have been worse outrages.

The worst outrage of all, Mishei, in my view, is that argument. It leads to all the others, and it has been used as the main justification for all the others.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 10 October 2003 02:08 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah sure . . . but everytime an Israeli abuse is brought up you quickly hide behind the "moral relativism" of "it's not as bad as the other side is doing"!!

Courage also never said checkpoint abuses were the same as mass murder, he said they were a part of a road towards genocide!!

Neo-Cons, go try and figure them out!!??? They have no problem with shooting first and asking questions later, but only when it is their lives/families/homes/stuff that are threathened . . . let the "other side" take a little "pre-emptive" action, and they accuse them of being savage terrorists!!!

Man I would love to have the power to turn Mishei into an ordinary Palestinian civilian for a few weeks!!

[ 10 October 2003: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 10 October 2003 03:00 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Sweetness and light, sweetness and light.



Yes thanks Al ...hmm I guess even I stoop low sometimes...BTW what was the context of my angry outburst?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 10 October 2003 03:09 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Mishei, my point is that I don't believe in the kinds of comparisons that you continue to make.

I don't believe that there is a trade-off in human tragedy. I deeply do not.

I have spent my life listening to smart-mouthed guys telling me that social problems here don't matter a toot, given how much worse life is for ... whomever, anywhere.

And I know, we all know, that life is for sure much worse most everywhere else.

However: that position, the one you seem to take, has long since seemed to me a way of avoiding ever feeling any empathy at all for anyone else in misery, since the logic of your argument is that we should never waste our compassion on anyone until we can find the people who are the most miserable on earth. As far as I can determine, that would probably be people who live on the flood-plains of Bangladesh, but there are possibly other candidates.

I think a lot of things about that sort of logic. I shall restrain self from listing them here, although male would be high on the list. European would figure prominently.

You continually justify outrage against the dignity of living human beings, Mishei, by claiming that there have been worse outrages.

The worst outrage of all, Mishei, in my view, is that argument. It leads to all the others, and it has been used as the main justification for all the others.



While I do not entirely agree with your supposition, it is a far cry from your earlier post accusing me of advocating and accepting murder. Had you posted this from the start I would have understood but to have intimated my promotion of murder was uncalled for. An apology for doing so would have been a nice gesture but I have learned not to expect that when I have been wronged here on Babble.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 10 October 2003 05:05 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
The refuge of last resort accuse someone of stupidity...Doc et al, sticks and stones, sticks and stones......


A typical diversion, for our typical apologist.
The irony of the above is delicious; and if it weren't a repeat performance, one might think it were accidental.

Really, though, you thought you were going for the throat, you missed far right and leaned straight into a counterpunch. Your last refuge is in sidetracking even further into the issue of your personal pride being 'wronged'...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 10 October 2003 06:20 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:


A typical diversion, for our typical apologist.
The irony of the above is delicious; and if it weren't a repeat performance, one might think it were accidental.

Really, though, you thought you were going for the throat, you missed far right and leaned straight into a counterpunch. Your last refuge is in sidetracking even further into the issue of your personal pride being 'wronged'...


You really need a diversion. Your focus on me is getting quite tiresome.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 11 October 2003 12:29 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Yes thanks Al ...hmm I guess even I stoop low sometimes...BTW what was the context of my angry outburst?


Even you...sometimes?

You and Quasimodo, pal. Ramrods both.

Context shmontext. You've made the same accusation about me and I somehow managed not to stoop to that level.

Don't give it a second thought though, I don't expect any better of you.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 11 October 2003 09:14 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:


Even you...sometimes?

You and Quasimodo, pal. Ramrods both.

Context shmontext. You've made the same accusation about me and I somehow managed not to stoop to that level.

Don't give it a second thought though, I don't expect any better of you.


Of course context is meaningless...and you Al...well what can we say...you are a hero...an angel in disguise the perfect human being...


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 11 October 2003 04:48 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
You really need a diversion. Your focus on me is getting quite tiresome.

More irony.

You are my perfect foil, dear. You serve 'em up, and I get to hit them out of the park. Who could ever get tired of that....

[ 11 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 11 October 2003 05:26 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

More irony.

You are my perfect foil, dear. You serve 'em up, and I get to hit them out of the park. Who could ever get tired of that....

[ 11 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]



I am no one's "dear". That is a patronizing and sexist nomenclature that I would ask you to refrain from using on me. If others like it that's fine I DO NOT!!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 11 October 2003 05:40 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

I am no one's "dear". That is a patronizing and sexist nomenclature that I would ask you to refrain from using on me. If others like it that's fine I DO NOT!!

That's too bad - I mean, that you are nobodies 'dear'. Feeling unwanted, Mishei?

It is neither patronising, nor sexist, Mishei, as I am well aware that your gender is not the one usually patronised with such language. It's nothing but a term of endearment.

Anyway, enough about your feelings, you've derailed enough of this thread (and others) with your onanistic psychopathology. As the French might say, so much "5 against 1"...

Now, what about that problem of the Occupation that you defend? You say you don't defend killing and murder, and yet Israeli policy has killed far more Palestinians than suicide bombers have killed Israelis, and still you defend the necessity and means of the Occupation under the standard apologist rubric of 'security'. How can you reconcile your proclaimed opposition to murder and mayhem while succouring the policies and actions which are the cause of significant bloodshed among Palestinians and -- I would argue -- among Israelis as well?

You want to have it both ways. You want your occupation but without having to accept the consequences -- i.e. the death toll.

[ 11 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 11 October 2003 05:55 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In Gaza today, eight dead, including two children (damned Terrorists!), at least 13 homes bulldozed and their occupants forced to vacate, dozens wounded -- at least 18 seriously -- and we're supposed to tiptoe around Mishei's poor little feelings while he spends his efforts defending the ideology and official screed given to justify this latest act of the IDF.

[ 11 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 11 October 2003 07:24 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you think so. I think that such aggressiveness is the only response to the myopia of our local Israeli apologists who continue to talk of suicide bombings (even those taking place in one of the diodes of the Occupation) as contextless and unrelated to the Occupation itself...


If you think so. I think that such aggressiveness is the only response to the myopia of our local Palestinian apologists who continue to talk of Israeli attacks on those who harbour terrorists in the Gaza and the West Bank as contextless and unrelated to the unrelenting Arab terrorism against Israel that has been on-going since long before there was any "occupation" in 1967.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 October 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

If you think so. I think that such aggressiveness is the only response to the myopia of our local Palestinian apologists who continue to talk of Israeli attacks on those who harbour terrorists in the Gaza and the West Bank as contextless and unrelated to the unrelenting Arab terrorism against Israel that has been on-going since long before there was any "occupation" in 1967.


Your argument is self-defeating. Your entire position vis a vis suicide bombings rests on the innocence of civilians and non-combattants. Then, when apologising for the killing of civilians by IDF soldiers, you bring out this little Israeli Minitrue ditty called 'harbouring terrorists'. It doesn't take a genius (don't worry, I'm not accusing you of being one, so I doubt you'll see the speculative affinity) to see that the folks at Hamas and Islamic Jihad feel that any Israeli is a target because they 'harbour IDF terrorists'....

In other words, this inane argument is the mirror image of what you call 'extreme' on the other side.

[ 12 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 October 2003 12:25 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tell us, Stockholm, were all the families in the 13 bulldozed homes 'terrorists'?
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 October 2003 12:40 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slim:
Gir, I think you'll find objectivity in this context pretty hard to come by unless you do a pretty thorough search. There's a lot of emotion on both sides.

FWIW, this page seems to confirm the gist of Mishei's post in terms of the time period and the casualty counts. It's ultimately sponsored by an organization called the Jewish Internet Association so it's certainly not going to represent the Palestinian viewpoint, but it appears to strive for historical accuracy.

Edit: This part is interesting:

Emphasis added.

[ 06 October 2003: Message edited by: Slim ]


That site 'strives for historical accuracy'? Slim, you gotta get out more. The opening two or three stanzas are so chock-full of Zionist historiography that it's laughable. Moreover, if you follow the links at the bottom of the page you linked to for 'further information' on the subject, the only link is to the site linked to by Mishei. In cahoots? Probably. Sounds like 'historical accuracy' is bought and paid for by the 'Zionist education' people...

Anyway, none of this goes to the facticity of the claims of the site(s). I only have time to scrape the surface, but some immediate objections arise.

For starters, no body count on the Arab side is tallied. How many were killed in so-called 'Reprisal Raids'? Second, why no specific statistics from the Israeli side. How many of the '400' dead and '900' wounded were civilians, how many soldiers?

Typically though, it leaves out the important fact that the ranks of the fedayeen were replete with peasants who were among the Palestinians ethnically cleansed by Israeli troops in the latter stages of the 1948 war. The Gaza area was the scene of some of the worst Haganah atrocities in the 1948 war.

That would seem to be an important piece of information wouldn't it? I mean, if we are going to pretend that the motive of the Arab fighters was simply 'Jew hatred' or that Arabs are just 'terrorists' then I suppose it is trivial. But, if we are to have any sense of the shape of the conflict, and incorporate the Palestinian narrative of the conflict into our account, then we should probably make reference to this fact. The site doesn't, and either does Mishei's. Now, why do you suppose that is? This is usual faire from the Zionist side - Palestinian voices are continually shut down, shut up, or silenced permanently.

Further, both websites accept the official term 'Reprisal Raids' at face value. The first question any skeptical mind would ask is, "were they really Reprisal Raids"? How many of these 'reprisals' were in direct response to attacks by fedayeen, and how many were attacks in and of themselves? Who were the targets of the attacks, what were their results. Did they urge on the violence so that Israeli troops could properly said to have a hand in the conflict, and not simply as innocent 'retaliators' absolved of all responsibility for the hostilities? Again, the website (and Mishei's) is remiss to examine the claims of official Israeli sources with any amount of scrutiny.

Anyway, I don't have all day to dissect these two pieces (one piece) of propaganda masquerading as history. Suffice it to say that the above questions alone are enough to bring serious doubt into the mix.

[ 12 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 October 2003 01:14 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
The source may be less than objective but truth is truth. I urge you to check any history of the time and era.

Here are more sources to back up the original.

source 1

Source 2...Israel's Border Wars 1949-1956: Arab Infiltration, Israeli Retaliation, and the Countdown to the Suez War: By, Benny Morris


Source 3


What a tool...You should vet your sources before you puff your chest, Mishei.

In particular, I imagine you have not even read the piece by Morris, because it doesn't actually help your case much. In fact, Morris goes to great lengths to argue that Israel was highly responsible for the way things played out in that period. In particular, he pays a great amount of attention to the fact that many of the fedayeen were not strictly 'political' combattants as we normally understand them, but regular folks trying to reclaim their land and homes after being ethnically cleansed in 1948. He argues that when these efforts were repelled by Israeli soldiers, and vicious retaliations on refugee camps undertaken, only then did the surrounding Arab states become actively involved in creating and maintaining the formal ranks of the fedayeen.

So, the next time you decide to ride in on the high horse named "Prove It", I suggest you bother to study the sources you cite in the first place.

[ 12 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 12 October 2003 01:16 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

That site 'strives for historical accuracy'? Slim, you gotta get out more.

On that we agree.

quote:

... if you follow the links at the bottom of the page you linked to for 'further information' on the subject, the only link is to the site linked to by Mishei. In cahoots? Probably.

I missed that.

quote:

This is usual faire from the Zionist side - Palestinian voices are continually shut down, shut up, or silenced permanently.

I didn't snip most of your post to dismiss it. I read it carefully. But this part goes to the point I made earlier in my post. I've surfed around on several occasions trying to find what might pass for "objective" accounts. They seem damn hard to find, though I'll acknowledge that I may not have searched hard enough.

[ 12 October 2003: Message edited by: Slim ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 October 2003 01:21 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slim:

I didn't snip most of your post to dismiss it. I read it carefully. But this part goes to the point I made earlier in my post. I've surfed around on several occasions trying to find what might pass for "objective" accounts. They seem damn hard to find, though I'll acknowledge that I may not have searched hard enough.

[ 12 October 2003: Message edited by: Slim ]


My response -- though quoting you -- was as much for you as for Mishei. As for the rest, surely one has to make a very careful survey of many sources to come to any understanding of the conflict at all. Very little that can be found on the internet is worth it's salt. Moreover, things are so often misquoted, misplaced, and misused (see my above rejoinder to Mishei's citing Benny Morris) on the internet (and in print) that it takes a lot of effort to uncover what the sources really said and meant.

[ 12 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 12 October 2003 01:34 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

What a tool...You should vet your sources before you puff your chest, Mishei.

In particular, I imagine you have not even read the piece by Morris, because it doesn't actually help your case much. In fact, Morris goes to great lengths to argue that Israel was highly responsible for the way things played out in that period. In particular, he pays a great amount of attention to the fact that many of the fedayeen were not strictly 'political' combattants as we normally understand them, but regular folks trying to reclaim their land and homes after being ethnically cleansed in 1948. He argues that when these efforts were repelled by Israeli soldiers, and vicious retaliations on refugee camps undertaken, only then did the surrounding Arab states become actively involved in creating and maintaining the formal ranks of the fedayeen.

So, the next time you decide to ride in on the high horse named "Prove It", I suggest you bother to study the sources you cite in the first place.

[ 12 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


I suppose you dont recall the fact that there was a question here on Babble as to whether or not there were terrorist raids prior to 1967. Morris' book of course proves there were. His interpretation of why is a different matter altogether one with which we may even agree.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 October 2003 07:40 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
I suppose you dont recall the fact that there was a question here on Babble as to whether or not there were terrorist raids prior to 1967. Morris' book of course proves there were. His interpretation of why is a different matter altogether one with which we may even agree.

Aye, but there is the rub - the use of the word 'terrorist' to describe them. I doubt Morris would agree that the events should be characterised in this way -- particularly with all it's modern political functions -- and so your use of him as a source is disingenious. Your use of the word 'terrorist' is all important, because this labelling means that you and Morris are talking about different events altogether. You have already engaged in an act of 'interpretation' with this label -- an interpretation which is at odds with your source -- without calling attention to this difference. THAT, is what is wrong with your citation and your position. It's as if to say "Morris supports me along with these others", when anyone who has read the piece knows that Morris and the other sites you used as your primary proofs are actually quite at odds over what actually happened.

But this was all foreshadowed in your ridiculous statement that 'facts are facts', which only raises the question 'whose facts'? 'Terrorism' facts or 'retaliation for ethnic cleansing' facts? Two very, very different things.

Moreover, this latest of yours goes nowhere near addressing the problems of facticity raised by your 'proofs' which I enumerated above. In a way, Morris is the BEST source you have, though as we have seen, your use of him is spurious, at best.

Looks to me like you are just trying to dodge the bullet, AGAIN...

Edited today for grammar...

[ 09 January 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 15 October 2003 11:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anniversary of a pre-1967 massacre.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca