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Author Topic: Israeli charged over child deaths
majorvictory
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posted 04 October 2003 05:31 PM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An Israeli army officer has been charged over causing the death of four Palestinians, three of them children.

quote:

He is accused of ordering tank units to fire shells and machine guns to enforce a curfew in the West Bank town of Jenin.

It was in June of last year that the killings took place.

Israeli forces in Jenin started shooting and shelling to get civilians off the streets.

According to the indictment against the army officer, a total of 10 tank shells were fired.

Two of the dead were young brothers whose case was highlighted by the BBC.

We obtained and broadcast amateur video footage of the last moments of their lives.

Ahmad was buried with the chocolate in his hand

It shows the brothers, aged six and 13, running for home.

A tank closed in behind fires a shell, even though the boys were clearly visible just a few metres ahead.

Their father told us they thought the curfew had been lifted and had gone out to buy chocolate.

As well as the two brothers, Israeli fire killed a girl of six and a man of 53 in Jenin that day.

Since the beginning of Palestinian uprising three years ago, only nine soldiers have gone on trial for killing Palestinians.

All of those trials are ongoing.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 04 October 2003 05:38 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The trial coverage should be interesting.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 October 2003 10:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
The trial coverage should be interesting.

What an IDF soldier charged???!!! Naaa cant be. I do not mean to be flippant but I have said many times that in democracies such as Israel the armed forces are governed by a strict martial discipline. When the line is crossed soldiers are charged. Im sure however that there will be some here who will find a way to reject this....

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DrConway
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posted 04 October 2003 11:15 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
... but are they convicted in a court of law?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 October 2003 11:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
... but are they convicted in a court of law?
Now that didnt take long did it???

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 04 October 2003 11:38 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Since the beginning of Palestinian uprising three years ago, only nine soldiers have gone on trial for killing Palestinians.

All of those trials are ongoing.


So the answer to Doc's question is no, not yet.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 01:08 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slim:

So the answer to Doc's question is no, not yet.


Interesting, last July 2002, a skin head was charged in the murder of a Jewish man in Toronto.

This case has yet to come to trial.

The trial of the punks responsible for the murder of Matti Barinovsky in a Toronto park took over three years to come to trial.

Seems the wheels of justice turn slowly everywhere ...even in Canada.

[ 05 October 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory
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posted 05 October 2003 01:42 AM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli Officer Is Charged in 4 Killings in West Bank

quote:
JERUSALEM, Oct. 3 — The Israeli military has filed manslaughter charges against an army officer in the killing of four Palestinians, including three children, at an outdoor food market last year, the army said Friday. The indictment says the four were killed when the officer, identified only as a lieutenant, ordered the firing of tank shells and machine guns to enforce a curfew.

Palestinians and human rights groups have accused Israeli troops of unprovoked shootings of civilians during the past three years of fighting, but say such cases are seldom investigated.

B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights group, said this case was the ninth time in the past three years that the military had indicted troops on charges of illegally using deadly force. The cases are at various stages in Israel's military courts, and none have been resolved, the group said.

In the latest indictment, the Israeli officer is accused of ordering tank crews to fire shells and machine guns to drive Palestinians off the street during a curfew on June 21, 2002, in Jenin, in the northern West Bank.

The shooting killed a 6-year-old girl, Sojud Shohaneh, along with two boys, brothers ages 13 and 5, and a 53-year-old man. Five Palestinians were hurt, three of them children.

The trial has not yet begun for the officer, who is also charged with causing grievous bodily harm.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 05 October 2003 10:43 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 06 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Stockholm
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posted 05 October 2003 11:02 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When is the last time that the Palestinian Authority prosecuted anyone for killing Isrealis??? (or do they secretely funnel them money as a reward)
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EarthShadow
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posted 05 October 2003 11:26 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Arafat and his cronies remind me of those WWF referees, facing the cameras with assurances to some stooge that everything is on the level, while the dirty work goes on behind their backs for all to see.

Yeah, seems to work the same way.


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Courage
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posted 06 October 2003 12:12 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
When is the last time that the Palestinian Authority prosecuted anyone for killing Isrealis??? (or do they secretely funnel them money as a reward)

Yeah, the PA, which does not even have full sovereignty over judicial issues in all of the West Bank and Gaza, which is cash-starved and under military seige (when they aren't openly under attack by IDF forces) should be operating within the normal limits of an established state including a relatively normal functioning security apparatus and judiciary...

Right...


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Courage
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posted 06 October 2003 12:14 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is pretty typical apologist stuff, Stockholm: ask the Palestinians to have a functioning state and criticise what they do have for not living up to the usual standards of states while ensuring that they don't have a state...

Doublespeak...


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Stockholm
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posted 06 October 2003 11:24 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I also wonder about the following: In Israel there is clearly a large active peace movement that totally opposes the Sharon gov't at sometimes great personal risk. Witness the group of Israeli soldiers who refused to bomd palestinian areas etc...

Does anyone among the palestinians actually oppose terrorism and suicide bombings? i know that Arafat and company will mumble a few decorous denunciations for international consumption, but one always suspects that they are secretely popping champagne corks with glee the higher the Israeli civilian death toll is.

Is there such a thing as an active Palestinian peace movement that actively preaches non-violence, stridently opposes suicide bombings and any attacks on Israeli civilians and if it exists do its members actually take any risks to make their point?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 06 October 2003 11:33 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah, the PA, which does not even have full sovereignty over judicial issues in all of the West Bank and Gaza, which is cash-starved ...

Are they really cash-starved? I've seen some interesting claims that Arafat has plenty o' coin in various stashes.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 06 October 2003 01:31 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's been non-violent Palestinian resistance since the occupation began. It doesn't get much press over on this side of the pond, though.

quote:
Palestinians have been committed to developing an effective non-violent resistance movement at least since the beginning of the Israeli Occupation in 1967. As a seventy year-old moderate Palestinian leader - a former Mayor, Cabinet member, and now a Member of Parliament and one of the founding members of the Palestinian National Front - I have invested my professional and personal life in non-violent resistance to Israeli Occupation. The idea that such a movement never existed is a odd attempt to erase a very real political movement.


Unfortunately, peaceful resistance to the Israeli Occupation has never served the interests of many of Israel's leaders. This is true for several reasons. Israel is determined to pretend that it is a victim because there is no glory, or even self-respect, in being the victim of pacifism.



From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 06 October 2003 03:19 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So what happens to palestinians who advocate non-violent resistence and openly oppose suice bombing and terrorism? Do they get denounced as collaborators and Isreali spies? Do they get stoned to death?
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 October 2003 03:23 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The IDF shoots them or drives over them with bulldozers, just like they do with Brits and USians.
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Courage
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posted 06 October 2003 03:32 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
[QB]

Does anyone among the palestinians actually oppose terrorism and suicide bombings?


Yes. However, they are forever ignored by Israel, who for their part make no efforts to embolden this group. In fact, some of their policies (including helping to get Hamas off the ground a few years back) seem to have been geared toward ensuring that such a voice could never get heard over the din of 'extremism' around them. Moreover, after trying mostly civil resistance (some stones thrown, general strikes, mass demonstrations) in the 1980's and being hit hard by the IDF and their leader the "breaker of bones" Mr. Rabin, and having experienced the perfidity of Bibi AND Barak on the Oslo deal, many Palestinians have become disillusioned with so-called 'moderate' solutions.

As they watch the settlements undergo 'natural growth' and that damned wall beseige them, and they continue to face curfews, detentions, Jews-only roads, humiliation at checkpoints, ambulance stoppages, and more, it is no suprise that Palestinians in ever-greater numbers see radical alternatives as the only answer.

That said, most of these people could be quickly won to a peaceful solution as they were during the early part of the Oslo period if they saw any kind of sincere effort on the part of Sharon and his fascist cronies to end the occupation and deal with the underlying issues from 1948 and forward.

quote:
Is there such a thing as an active Palestinian peace movement that actively preaches non-violence, stridently opposes suicide bombings and any attacks on Israeli civilians and if it exists do its members actually take any risks to make their point?

Yes. One of the bright lights of this position, Edward Said, sadly has recently left us. He was, for his part, chided and derided by Zionists of many stripes because while condemning Arafat and the 'military solution' of Hamas, he also remained an unrepentent Palestinian nationalist, who would not toady to Zionist narratives which alternately write the Palestinians completely out of existence, or make them secondary to the 'security' concerns of Israelis.

The current 'two-state' solution so in vogue on the Israeli left at the moment is rife with it's own contradictions and flat out racism. Palestinian national claims are pandered to not out of concern for universal principles and respect for equality, but merely out of a pragmatic adjustment to the stubborn realities of a massive non-Jewish population who refuse to be treated like "objects in the way, like the rocks of Judea" in relation to the expansion of Israel.


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Courage
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posted 06 October 2003 03:36 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Are they really cash-starved? I've seen some interesting claims that Arafat has plenty o' coin in various stashes.


And I've heard claims that there is a man in the moon, that Hitler survived WWII, that there is Yeti in the mountains of the Western U.S. and that a single shooter and a Magic Bullet killed John F. Kennedy so many years ago...

I've recently heard that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, that Arnold Schwarzenegger "can't recall" incidents of sexual harrassment, or "praising Hitler" and that Berlusconi thinks that Mussolini sent a few dissidents on 'vacation' in Italy but otherwise was a really nice guy...

Can you substantiate the charges?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 06 October 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Can you substantiate the charges?

Judging by your comments, not to your satisfaction. But here's one such article, and here's an article in Forbes on the money that flows through his hands. Make whatever you wish of them - I was just asking.


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Courage
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posted 06 October 2003 06:25 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Judging by your comments, not to your satisfaction. But here's one such article, and here's an article in Forbes on the money that flows through his hands. Make whatever you wish of them - I was just asking.


Sorry, I responded a little harshly. It's just that I've been down this road before, and there seems to be little more than conjecture at this point. More importantly, though, whether or not Arafat is corrupt or not doesn't change the fact that the PA judiciary, where it does try to function, is terribly under-staffed and lacking in resources. Even if this were caused by Arafat - which is highly questionable - the cynical bar-setting by Stockholm (and other apologists) is simply an attempt to say, "Hey, the Palestinians don't deserve a state, it's clear that they are too primitive and corrupt to run one." Therefore, Israel is justified in the occupation, in the violence they perpetrate, the expansion of settlements, and all various accoutrements of the aggressive Zionism practiced by the Sharon (and previous) government(s).

It's hogwash. One might imagine a similar argument being made a few decades ago when the Zionist movement was -- from a certain point of view -- rife with terrorists (Shamir, Stern, etc.) and corruption (Kastner, etc.) and the air was ripe with antisemitic attitudes the same way that anti-Arabism is common today. "Well, those Jews cannot be trusted with a state of their own - they are corrupt and dishonest and they harbour terrorists..."

[ 06 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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DrConway
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posted 06 October 2003 10:32 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Incidentally, how come it took you, Mr. Magoo, to finally substantiate the accusations that Arafat had a personal slush fund when Mishei could not substantiate the allegations on at least two separate occasions when I specifically asked for substantiation?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 October 2003 12:24 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You have to keep bugging him.

It took me two days of constant pestering for Mish to go beyond bluster and finally provide an (albeit biased) set of sources for an assertion of his.


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evenflow
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posted 10 October 2003 01:50 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
Is there any new news about this trial? Thanks in advance.
From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 10 October 2003 09:32 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Incidentally, how come it took you, Mr. Magoo, to finally substantiate the accusations that Arafat had a personal slush fund when Mishei could not substantiate the allegations on at least two separate occasions when I specifically asked for substantiation?
Doc this may come as a bit of a surprise to you but I dont necessarily jump to your commands. Thanks Mr. Magoo for your work but Doc is in the end just lazy. That Arafat had a slush fund was common knowledge that could have been googled by anyone.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged

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