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Author Topic: Another one.
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 04 October 2003 11:02 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Suicide blast at Haifa restaurant

quote:
HAIFA, ISRAEL - At least 18 people were killed and 30 injured Saturday when a suicide bomber blew himself up in a beachfront restaurant in Haifa. The bomber was also believed killed.

The explosion took place in the Maxim restaurant along the northern port city's beach promenade.

The popular restaurant was crowded with people when the bomber tried to enter. The security guard fired shots at the bomber, who then detonated the explosives.



From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 October 2003 11:10 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well according to the posting time they were posted at exactly the same time 11:02AM.

Either way it is a terrible mass murder with a tragic twist. This cafe was owned and operated by Israeli Arabs. I have frequented it often when I was in Haifa and can tell you that many Palestinians go there. In fact it is one of the few places in Israel where both Israeli Jews and Palestinians gather to eat and and talk politics.

If this indeed turns out to be a Palestinian terrorist attack it is a dangerous and stupid shift in this increasingly crazy and sad war.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 October 2003 11:13 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I must have posted it earlier in the same minute, because mine went up first. No matter. The article you posted is different than mine, so it would be fine if you reposted it in this thread.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 04 October 2003 11:28 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Palestinian terrorists now murder their own

I think it is despicable, mishei, that you would infer all Palestinians are terrorists.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 October 2003 12:29 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't infer that from what he wrote. To me it sounded like he meant that Palestinian terrorists were murdering people of their own nationality (Palestinians as opposed to Israelis).
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 04 October 2003 01:33 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Palestinian terrorists now murder their own

Their own, would be "Palestinian terrorists" and the inference would be all Palestinians in that cafe were terrorists.

And if arriving at such extreme conclusions as a result of a poster not qualifying his or her qualifications is good enough for mishei, well, hell, it is good enough for me too.


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Michelle
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posted 04 October 2003 01:36 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think he meant it that way. But I see the point you're making.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 October 2003 01:40 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that Wingy's point is that the suicide bomber, if such there was, was an agent of Hamas or some other such identifiable organization.

"Palestinian" is indeed an overgeneralization, and all babblers are far too good as writers to write in overgeneralizations -- aren't we?

The stories I have read are also suggesting some funny sub-plot -- something about shooting? Perhaps we should wait till we know what happened.

Well: we know already that people died, and that is bad enough. The Lord bless them and keep them. All of them. As, of course, he will.


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Mishei
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posted 04 October 2003 02:02 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I think that Wingy's point is that the suicide bomber, if such there was, was an agent of Hamas or some other such identifiable organization.

"Palestinian" is indeed an overgeneralization, and all babblers are far too good as writers to write in overgeneralizations -- aren't we?

The stories I have read are also suggesting some funny sub-plot -- something about shooting? Perhaps we should wait till we know what happened.

Well: we know already that people died, and that is bad enough. The Lord bless them and keep them. All of them. As, of course, he will.



Michelle is quite right in terms of how I meant this. Of course Wing will look for any opening to crucify me that is par for his course.

As for the term "Palestinian Terrorist" I understood this was discussed at length here on Babble and Michelle and others accepted that as there can be Israeli terrorists (some extreme right settlers groups) there can be Palestinian terrorists (to many to name them all but groups like Al Aqusa, Hamas, Hizbollah etc).

No, Wingy is just sniping while completely ignoring the devestating loss of life here. My sad guess is amongst these people murdered by Palestinian terrorists you will find, Palestinians, Jews, Christians...focus on that Wingy...focus on that


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 October 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, there is mourning.

And then there is honest political debate about the situations that throw innocent people into mourning.

Both are considered legitimate on babble. No one should be sanctioned for choosing the one over the other.


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Mishei
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posted 04 October 2003 02:13 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Mishei, there is mourning.

And then there is honest political debate about the situations that throw innocent people into mourning.

Both are considered legitimate on babble. No one should be sanctioned for choosing the one over the other.


It seems to me that political debate should occur in a thread designed for that debate. Now maybe you are right but I cant help but feel that Wing gets so caught up in trying to prove me wrong on things that he loses all perspective.

And in relation to this tragedy it seems that this was the work of a female suicide bomber according to Ha'aretz.

Female suicide bomber


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RookieActivist
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posted 04 October 2003 02:15 PM      Profile for RookieActivist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This act has been condemned by the US, the UN, Britain, and the Palestinian Authority. And so it should be.

However, the unequal balance of the scales of political justice mean that the provocative, or retaliatory acts, depending on your political skew, of the Israeli government are not condemned in the same manner.

It makes me very sad when I read about this; I feel sympathetic for the victims and their families, and I also see it as the escalation of violence and the future escalation of oppression against the Palestinian people.


From: me to you | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 October 2003 02:26 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RookieActivist:
This act has been condemned by the US, the UN, Britain, and the Palestinian Authority. And so it should be.

However, the unequal balance of the scales of political justice mean that the provocative, or retaliatory acts, depending on your political skew, of the Israeli government are not condemned in the same manner.

It makes me very sad when I read about this; I feel sympathetic for the victims and their families, and I also see it as the escalation of violence and the future escalation of oppression against the Palestinian people.


And I feel incredible sadness for the victims here . I have read that many were children. It is madness to me. How does anyone walk into a cafe see young children eating lunch with their moms and dads and then murder them?

The Islamic Jihad and their ilk are monsters...pure unadulterated evil. That anyone would attempt to even try to justify what is clearly cold-blooded murder of children is something I will never quite understand.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 October 2003 02:31 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Palestinian terrorists now murder their own
Their own, would be "Palestinian terrorists" and the inference would be all Palestinians in that cafe were terrorists.

And if arriving at such extreme conclusions as a result of a poster not qualifying his or her qualifications is good enough for mishei, well, hell, it is good enough for me too.


Actually, Mish pulled this very stunt with something I wrote last week.

quote:
I have read that many were children. It is madness to me. How does anyone walk into a cafe see young children eating lunch with their moms and dads and then murder them?

For this reason many of us here have praised the Israeli pilots who have refused to bomb the Occupied Territories.

Their morality isn't selective.

quote:
The Islamic Jihad and their ilk are monsters...pure unadulterated evil.

That's what you said about the Nazis. That's what Bush says about his enemies. Dividing the world into good and evil, then claiming oneself as one of the good guys is far too easy.

[ 04 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


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WingNut
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posted 04 October 2003 02:32 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No, Wingy is just sniping while completely ignoring the devestating loss of life here. My sad guess is amongst these people murdered by Palestinian terrorists you will find, Palestinians, Jews, Christians...focus on that Wingy...focus on that

Ah, nbut mishei, I have learned so much from you. Attack what the person said, not the meaning. And you did say Palestinian and that is waht you meant, isn't it?

And yes, mourning. Recognizing the dead and thier suffering. That is what you intended when you began your thread with the title " Palestinian terrorists now murder their own" wasn't it? No politics in there was there?

Ah mishie, you remain a victim of your own games.

But your pretend caring is just that. You prove it with your own words.

I think this is the time when you pick out a word or two that can somehow be used to justify your going off on a tirade as a result of some insult at a sick family member or something.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 October 2003 02:35 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I know he has, Al-Q. I thought WingNut honestly misunderstood what Mishei meant. But Mishei, it's true, you have deliberately "misunderstood" pro-Palestinian posters to meam that all Palestinians are terrorists before too, so it really rings kind of hollow to get all indignant about it when someone does it to you.

[ 04 October 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 October 2003 02:42 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Yeah, I know he has, Al-Q. I thought WingNut honestly misunderstood what Mishei meant. But Mishei, it's true, you have deliberately "misunderstood" pro-Palestinian posters to meam that all Palestinians are terrorists before too, so it really rings kind of hollow to get all indignant about it when someone does it to you.

[ 04 October 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


Hmmm I see so you can say for certainty that I "deliberately" misunderstood something? OK Michelle what number am I thinking of?

I dont mean to be snarky but I did not deliberately do any thing. I may have misunderstood something but it wasnt deliberate. Unless you can read my mind I wish you would not make assumptions about what I was thinking. Thanks.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 October 2003 03:30 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I try to think about this disinterestedly sometimes.

One thing that I am sure is true -- of me, anyway: some people really are temperamentally allergic to certain kinds of absolute expression.

When Dubya talks about "evil-doers," eg: I mean, there are some of us on whom terms like that are just never gonna work, y'know?

Mishei, it really makes a difference to you that people regularly gather round and say the same overgeneral things over and over again: it is awful that people die like this; it is awful that people die like this; it is awful that people die like this.

And of course, it is.

But you seem to think that that is enough, Mishei, that something political follows automatically from that sanctimonious recitation.

Some of us keep remembering all the OTHER people who die like this, and think that nothing political follows automatically from Mishei's deep feelings, however deep those may be.

I call those recitations sanctimonious, Mishei, because they never seem to lead anywhere, except to the political conclusions you want.

Anyone who wants to weep over suffering humanity has no shortage -- not never -- of candidates over whom to weep. The pressing question is: who wants to do more than condemn? More than sound self-righteous? Who wants to change things so that fewer will die in future?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 October 2003 03:38 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I try to think about this disinterestedly sometimes.

One thing that I am sure is true -- of me, anyway: some people really are temperamentally allergic to certain kinds of absolute expression.

When Dubya talks about "evil-doers," eg: I mean, there are some of us on whom terms like that are just never gonna work, y'know?

Mishei, it really makes a difference to you that people regularly gather round and say the same overgeneral things over and over again: it is awful that people die like this; it is awful that people die like this; it is awful that people die like this.

And of course, it is.

But you seem to think that that is enough, Mishei, that something political follows automatically from that sanctimonious recitation.

Some of us keep remembering all the OTHER people who die like this, and think that nothing political follows automatically from Mishei's deep feelings, however deep those may be.

I call those recitations sanctimonious, Mishei, because they never seem to lead anywhere, except to the political conclusions you want.

Anyone who wants to weep over suffering humanity has no shortage -- not never -- of candidates over whom to weep. The pressing question is: who wants to do more than condemn? More than sound self-righteous? Who wants to change things so that fewer will die in future?


We all do Skdadl....but for me today, knowing this cafe, having met the owners, for me today this is a time to weep. Sorry if you think that is too maudlin.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 04 October 2003 03:50 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think this is the time when you pick out a word or two that can somehow be used to justify your going off on a tirade as a result of some insult at a sick family member or something.

quote:
We all do Skdadl....but for me today, knowing this cafe, having met the owners, for me today this is a time to weep. Sorry if you think that is too maudlin.

Which, again, explains the original, sensitive to the loss, thread title.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 October 2003 04:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I will give you this much:

There are cafes I've sat in, some of which I can imagine would be targets for all sorts of people, and I'm not just thinking Toronto ... If they were blown up, I would cry especially, because I know them, and I try to think of them whenever I read of another suicide bomber in an Israeli city.

If al-Qaeda had succeeded in their plans to suicide-bomb either the embassy district in Paris or the Eiffel Tower, I would have cried special tears.

Anywhere I've been, Mishei, those are my people. Someone blows my people up, I am going to be upset, Mishei.

But WHY are people blowing us up, Mishei? Why why why?

It is just because they are "evil-doers"? Mishei, I am never gonna accept that. I don't have your unshakeable sense of righteousness, I guess.

I have this nagging feeling that people who hate us have cause.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 04 October 2003 05:25 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
At times I get depressed reading about stuff like this. I would suspect others here do too - which is why we sidebar into the inevitable metadebate about the Israeli-Palestinian situation in the abstract; it removes us from having to deal with the reality that a bunch of people died again.
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majorvictory
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posted 04 October 2003 05:26 PM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is just because they are "evil-doers"? Mishei, I am never gonna accept that. I don't have your unshakeable sense of righteousness, I guess.

I have this nagging feeling that people who hate us have cause.


Jenin deaths video implicates army

quote:
The BBC has obtained video footage which appears to show an incident in the West Bank city of Jenin two weeks ago in which two Palestinian children were killed by Israeli tank fire.


Ahmad asked me for money because he wanted to buy a chocolate bar. I loved him and his brother so much

Dead boys' father
The Israeli army has apologised for causing the deaths of six-year-old Ahmad Abu Aziz and his 13-year-old brother Jamil, but said the tank crew opened fire to deter Palestinians breaking a curfew and approaching them.

However, the footage shows a tank firing the first of two shells, at close range, at a group of civilians who are running away.

The dead boys' father, Youssef Abu Aziz, told the BBC that they had gone outside to buy chocolate, thinking the Israeli curfew imposed on their city had been lifted.

The film of their last moments begins with the two boys and a number of other civilians running towards the camera along an otherwise deserted street in Jenin.

Filmed from high building some distance away the footage is shaky, but clearly shows the sequence of events.

Father Youssef says he thought the curfew had been lifted

A white car speeds along the road, horn blaring, the driver - Dr Samer al-Ahmad - apparently warning the people to run for their lives.

Now recovering from his wounds, Dr al-Ahmad told the BBC that, moments earlier, an Israeli officer had said to him that it was allowed for him to be on the streets.

But then he said the tank crew opened fire on him with a machine-gun "without warning... I was hit but I drove on".

Soon afterwards in the film, the Israeli tank appears at the end of the street. It stops for a few seconds before firing in the direction of the retreating Palestinians, the blast engulfing it in a ball of flame and smoke.

"I thought there was no danger," says Mr Abu Aziz.

"Ahmad asked me for money because he wanted to buy a chocolate bar. I loved him and his brother so much. Ahmad was buried with the chocolate in his hand."



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 04 October 2003 06:36 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

That's what you said about the Nazis. That's what Bush says about his enemies. Dividing the world into good and evil, then claiming oneself as one of the good guys is far too easy.

[ 04 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


Sometimes it is perfectly accpetable to do that. For example: racists- evil. The rest of us- not evil. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys. Hey, that was pretty easy.

Its only a problem when people are more concerned with power and self-interest than justice, and misuse the words "evil" or "terrorist" to describe others who may not really be either of those things.


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josh
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posted 04 October 2003 07:14 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"President Bush branded a bombing in Israel that killed 19 people Saturday as despicable, saying the attack was a reminder of the Palestinians' need to combat terrorism.

``I condemn unequivocally the vicious act of terrorism committed today in Haifa,'' Bush said in a written statement. ``This murderous action, aimed at families gathered to enjoy a Sabbath lunch, killed and injured dozens of men, women, and children.''

He added: ``This despicable attack underscores once again the responsibility of Palestinian authorities to fight terror, which remains the foremost obstacle to achieving the vision of two states living side by side in peace and security.""

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-US-Mideast.html

The "foremost obstacle"? Bullshit! The "foremost obstacle" is that one of the states is occupying the other, will not leave, and is illegally colonizing the other. Sounds like Bush is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Sharon. There could be no attacks whatsoever, and Sharon would not lift a finger to end the occupation. There were no suicide bombings for nearly 30 years, and Israel did not end the occupation.

[ 04 October 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 04 October 2003 07:29 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More on this horrific event, on the eve of Yom Kippur: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=450124

I agree, Josh. Stop the occupation. It would be a start.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 October 2003 08:52 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sometimes it is perfectly accpetable to do that. For example: racists- evil. The rest of us- not evil. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys. Hey, that was pretty easy.

Far too easy.

That's what the Zionicists would have you believe; that opposition to Israeli colonialism is antisemitic - ie. "racist." It lets them off the hook and gives them the right to use whatever means to kill evildoers.

Hamas is no more racist today than the FLN was when it was blowing up French civilians in Algiers, or the maquisards were when they ambushed German troops. Racism isn't the issue - the colonial occupation of Palestinian land is the issue.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 October 2003 10:15 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
More on this horrific event, on the eve of Yom Kippur: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=450124

I agree, Josh. Stop the occupation. It would be a start.


Suicide bombings and Arab extremist terrorism began well before the occupation. How do you explain that? No Im afraid it is far to easy to just say "stop the occupation". Why not stop the terrorism since it came first. See what I mean?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 October 2003 11:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is up to the oppressor to stop first, not the oppressed.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Foxer
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posted 04 October 2003 11:59 PM      Profile for Foxer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is up to the oppressor to stop first, not the oppressed.

i dunno - that sounds like a great thing to put on their tombstones.

I don't know much about the situation, but i think that if ANYONE can stop, they should. This 'he said she said' stuff is going to get them all killed.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 October 2003 12:57 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More on this from the Observer: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4767801-102275,00.html
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 01:05 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
It is up to the oppressor to stop first, not the oppressed.
How was Israel the oppressor in 1965?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 05 October 2003 01:12 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Didn't the terrorism begin with the Zionists and the Stern Gang among others? Didn't some Zionsist cheer the massacre of innocent Palestinians during acts of terrorism?

Or is it only terrorism when carried out by Arabs?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 05 October 2003 01:54 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
One can agree or disagree with the idea of suicide bombing, but it sure is an effective weapon in this conflict. It makes the conflict hugely expensive for the Israelis, the most deadly planes, tanks and helicopters do not seem to be able to stop the suicide bombers. And neither are the check points and other restrictions on freedom. Buldozing relatives homes does not work either. One way one might be able to prevent suicide bombers is by decending into an imorality greater then the suicide bomber. The trouble with that is that one has to live with it and the suicide bomber does not.

The other alternative would be to create the hope and convidence that life is worth living. Making suicide the less prefered option. I think it is about time that the Israelis try that out. It is probably easier and healtier.

If we would think about all the car accidents, that kill, in the same way then we would be all walking.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 October 2003 08:17 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Foxer:
I don't know much about the situation, but i think that if ANYONE can stop, they should. This 'he said she said' stuff is going to get them all killed.

They have no incentive to stop, Foxer. Suicide bombing is the only weapon they have and the only delivery system they have in this war.

Think about it. "Hmm, if we stop suicide bombing - we get our land taken away and be treated like cattle every day at checkpoints" (ecause I don't think anyone except the most diehard true believers think that Sharon is actually willing to give them any meaningful land offer or autonomy) "and if we suicide bomb, then we'll still get treated like cattle and have our land taken away, but damn it, we won't go down without a fight."

Do I like it? Hell no. But I understand where they're coming from. There have been articles posted lately in this forum about Israeli abuses (both individual and political with that stupid fucking wall) that make me so mad I could spit. If it makes me that mad, imagine how angry it makes Palestinians.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 05 October 2003 09:07 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei says:

"Suicide bombings and Arab extremist terrorism began well before the occupation. How do you explain that? No Im afraid it is far to easy to just say "stop the occupation". Why not stop the terrorism since it came first. See what I mean?"

Name me one suicide bombing before 1967. In fact, I don't think there were any until the mid-1990s.

And of course you would say it's "far to easy to just say" stop the occupation. That way you can avoid addressing it altogether. And you also avoid the fact that there were no suicide bombings for some 30 years after 1967, and still the occupation and colonization continued.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 09:58 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am on record here as being in favour of a two-state solution and for Israel to pull out of occupied lands. You can bastardize that all you want but that has been my position.

Josh you are right modern suicide bombings began with the first in Lebanon in 1983 against the American army post in Beirut. My apologies.

There has been ongoing terrorist attacks against Israel however since it was declared a nation by the UN in 1948.

Michelle, tactics of isolation and provocation against tha Palestinian people were mostly instituted after the first wave of suicide bombings in 2000. Prior to that when peace seemed to be at hand Palestinainas and Israelis moved quite comfortably around Israel. With the rejection of a Palestinian state by Arafat and the wave of mass murderrs Israel took desperate and horrible measures to defend all of its citizens. Using this defence as a means to explain suicide bombings IMHO gives some credence for it to continue.

Let us focus on peace through negotiation and the will of the public. Israelis still want peace and the vast majority are supportive of a two-state solution. That is what we must work for...all of us...or there will be no hope.


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Michelle
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posted 05 October 2003 10:02 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel attacks Syria in response

quote:
JERUSALEM - Israeli warplanes attacked a target in Syria Sunday, calling it a training camp used Islamic Jihad, the group that claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing that killed 19 people.

The strike occurred late Saturday or early Sunday about 20 km northwest of Damascus.



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Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 10:23 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Palestinian sources in Beirut said Israeli
warplanes raided a facility belonging to Ahmed
Jibril's Popular Front for the Liberation of
Palestine (PFLP), injuring one man. In addition
to PFLP members, terrorists from Islamic Jihad,
Hamas and al Qaeda also utilized the camp for
training. Among the buildings hit in the raid
was a weapons workshop used by Islamic Jihad
Ha'aretz.

Israel strikes at Palestinian training camp


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skdadl
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posted 05 October 2003 10:24 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is a serious escalation. I wonder whether the USian admin were informed before this attack was authorized. For sure it is going to provoke European reaction.

Syria is, of course, a tyrannical state and a supporter of terrorists as well. It is also the country, interestingly, where the U.S. chose to send a Canadian they suspected of ties to al-Qaeda for extended torture.

USian relations with Syria appear to be complex and interesting. At the very least, the USian admin still use the Syrians as paid thugs. The murk increases.


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Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 10:42 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And of course you would say it's "far to easy to just say" stop the occupation. That way you can avoid addressing it altogether. And you also avoid the fact that there were no suicide bombings for some 30 years after 1967, and still the occupation and colonization continued.


Lets remember a couple of things. With Yitzchak Rabin as Prime Miniter Israel did honour the Oslo accords and the Clinton brokered agreement by pulling out of the West Bank and Gaza 1n 1994 while the PA established control over its territories. Suicide bombings continued nonetheless.

In fact as early as last year a poll taken at Najah University in Nablus found that "87% of Palestinians surveyed were in favour of continuing terror attacks and 87.5% were in favour of 'liberating all of Palestine'" (New York Times March 18, 2002).

Is it any wonder that Israelis mistrust Palestinians?


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Michelle
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posted 05 October 2003 10:58 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ask yourself why most Palestinians are in favour of continuing suicide attacks. They see their homes destroyed, their people killed, their travellers humiliated at checkpoints, and their land stolen hand over fist every single day, particularly by that apartheid wall. They see Israel armed to the teeth courtesy of US taxpayers, and they're on the receiving end of that military might. What weapons do they have? Practically none - except homemade bombs and people so miserable and desperate that they're willing to become human delivery systems for those bombs.

Palestinian suicide bombers kill innocent Israelis lunching and relaxing in restaurants, dancing the night away in discos. I don't think it's effective and I don't think it's right. But consider that Palestinians are kept in deplorable, impoverished conditions, unable to move freely, being at the whim of stupid IDF soldiers who routinely humiliate them for sport at checkpoints when they try to travel to work or school. I'm sure it must gall them that they may or may not be able to get to work or school depending on whether an IDF soldier feels like treating them like cattle that day, while they see Israelis on the other side of the "border" dancing the night away at discos. While I don't believe killing is the right way to handle it, I understand the anger that motivates it. And I understand why the tactic has such strong support. Because what do they have to lose?

Or let's turn your premise around. What percentage of Israelis are in favour of the occupation? What percentage of Israelis support settlements? What percentage of Israelis support Sharon and the IDF, who are responsible for the deaths and everyday humiliation and misery of innocent Palestinians?


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Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 11:19 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle , as i recall various polls in Israel have always shown that the vast majority of Israelis favoured a two-state solution that would see the end of the occupation.

What i have never been able to understand was why the world has so focused in on this issue. Yes it is deplorable but as Allan Dershowitz and others have noted there are far more meritorious cases of stateless people that the world seems silent at.

For example, the Tibetans have been treated far more brutally by their occupiers than have the Palestinians. The Chinese governemnt has built far more settlements in Tibet than Israel has in the WB and Gaza.As well the Chinese have flooded Tibet with so many ethnic Chinese that Tibetans have become a minority in their own land.

Yet rarely a word of world protest. How many threads are there about Tibet/China compared to Israel? Perhaps if Tibetans were to engage in suicide bombings maybe we will see more threads huh?


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josh
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posted 05 October 2003 11:27 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Lets remember a couple of things. With Yitzchak Rabin as Prime Miniter Israel did honour the Oslo accords and the Clinton brokered agreement by pulling out of the West Bank and Gaza 1n 1994 while the PA established control over its territories. Suicide bombings continued nonetheless.

In fact as early as last year a poll taken at Najah University in Nablus found that "87% of Palestinians surveyed were in favour of continuing terror attacks and 87.5% were in favour of 'liberating all of Palestine'" (New York Times March 18, 2002).

Is it any wonder that Israelis mistrust Palestinians?


As you know, they didn't pull out of all of the west bank and gaza. And as I'm sure you know, the amount of settlers in the west bank doubled after Oslo.

I don't blame Israelis for not trusting the Palestinians. That's why I have suggested that they withdraw from the west bank and Gaza, and turn control over to an international force. If they want to build a wall along the green line, that's fine. These two events should alleviate concerns about Israeli security and test the Palestinians good will.

But why won't it happen? Not because of Israeli concerns over security, but because of the "greater land of Israeli ideology," which has so much political influence within Israel. This is the true "obstacle to peace." Until Israel confronts the militants in its midst, it will not have peace.


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josh
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posted 05 October 2003 11:34 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei says:

"What i have never been able to understand was why the world has so focused in on this issue. Yes it is deplorable but as Allan Dershowitz and others have noted there are far more meritorious cases of stateless people that the world seems silent at.

For example, the Tibetans have been treated far more brutally by their occupiers than have the Palestinians. The Chinese governemnt has built far more settlements in Tibet than Israel has in the WB and Gaza.As well the Chinese have flooded Tibet with so many ethnic Chinese that Tibetans have become a minority in their own land.

Yet rarely a word of world protest. How many threads are there about Tibet/China compared to Israel? Perhaps if Tibetans were to engage in suicide bombings maybe we will see more threads huh?"

Not this canard again. First off, there has been plenty of condemnation of China. Secondly, that there are other injustices in the world, doesn't absolve Israel's behaviour. Third, Israel/Palestine is the focal point of the general friction between the west and Arab/Islam. Fourth, at least from a U.S. taxpayer perspective, Israel recieves billions of dollar a year in aid. Finally, Israel has always claimed to be the sole democracy in the middle east; therefore, it should be held to a higher standard of behaviour.


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pogge
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posted 05 October 2003 11:44 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli army divides Gaza Strip into three slices

quote:
The Israeli army forces divided the Gaza Strip into three slices and redeployed tanks and armored vehicles in part of the area, Palestinian security sources said Sunday.

  The Israeli soldiers erected roadblocks in the central and southern Gaza Strip to prevent traffic into and inside the Gaza Strip town and villages, the sources said.


This may seem like retaliation for the recent suicide bombing, but this Jane's article from Sept. 17th suggests that this was in the works anyway.

quote:
Foreign Report can reveal that the Israeli government is planning an onslaught on the Gaza Strip. This is because, our informant said, its former policy of containing Palestinian violence, including the murder of the Hamas leadership, has failed.

The idea is to launch an intervention in October, once a series of Jewish holidays have finished.

(snip)

Israel is planning a huge call-up of at least 50,000 soldiers to cope with the conquering of the Gaza strip. Special Israeli troops will move from house to house to find and kill militants.



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skdadl
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posted 05 October 2003 11:46 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The world is so focused on this issue -- gee, why?

See especially josh's points three and four above, Mishei.

We are all focused on Palestine, Mishei, because many of us fear that this confrontation is going to kill us all, Mishei.

And by bombing Syria today, Israel has just taken another step in that direction.


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Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 12:04 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
Mishei says:

"What i have never been able to understand was why the world has so focused in on this issue. Yes it is deplorable but as Allan Dershowitz and others have noted there are far more meritorious cases of stateless people that the world seems silent at.

For example, the Tibetans have been treated far more brutally by their occupiers than have the Palestinians. The Chinese governemnt has built far more settlements in Tibet than Israel has in the WB and Gaza.As well the Chinese have flooded Tibet with so many ethnic Chinese that Tibetans have become a minority in their own land.

Yet rarely a word of world protest. How many threads are there about Tibet/China compared to Israel? Perhaps if Tibetans were to engage in suicide bombings maybe we will see more threads huh?"

Not this canard again. First off, there has been plenty of condemnation of China. Secondly, that there are other injustices in the world, doesn't absolve Israel's behaviour. Third, Israel/Palestine is the focal point of the general friction between the west and Arab/Islam. Fourth, at least from a U.S. taxpayer perspective, Israel recieves billions of dollar a year in aid. Finally, Israel has always claimed to be the sole democracy in the middle east; therefore, it should be held to a higher standard of behaviour.



I see you call it a canard yet search Babble and you will find triple and quadruple the number of threads dealing with the Israeli/ Palestinian crisis.

And no Josh you cannot shun aside the terrible tragedies being perpetrated on the Tibetans by invoking the aid Israel receives from the US as a reason NOT to focus on this horrendous abuse.

Yes Israel needs to act as a democracy and that is why we have higher expectations but this need not be the reason that we do not have thread after thread condemning China's abuses of Tibet.

It seems to me that despite compelling claims (some would argue far more compelling than the Palestinians) by the Tibetans for statehood and to stop the Chinese from destroying them, it has never received any real recognition from the UN, the European community, the Vatican etc.And other than the odd "excuse me" it has received scant attention from the intellectual left.

No I just find it sad that the UN has never condemned China, NOT EVEN ONCE, for their treatment of the Tibetans. I find it sad that the international community actually rewarded China with the 2008 Olympics but cannot find in their heart to support the Tibetans.

BTW the same can be asked as to the Kurds, Armenians in Turkey, Chechens, Basques...none of these groups have observer status in the UN . And NONE of these groups have ever been offered (in any way shape or form) statehood and have rejected it on multiple occassions and taken up terrorism to achieve their goals after rejecting offers of statehood.

For these arguments i am grateful to Allan Dershowitz who has written extensively on it. Oh yes I know many here dont like Dershowitz so I await your shooting of the messenger...nonetheless he makes a compelling case. One that cannot be simply ignored or explained away in the usual cacophony of benign argumentation.


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Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
The world is so focused on this issue -- gee, why?

See especially josh's points three and four above, Mishei.

We are all focused on Palestine, Mishei, because many of us fear that this confrontation is going to kill us all, Mishei.

And by bombing Syria today, Israel has just taken another step in that direction.


Why will it kill us all...because extremist terrorism perpetrated by some mid-east factions may be exported here? So what do we do Skdadl?...ah lets see...yes lets reward terrorism and maybe that will stop it.

And Skdadl, by your way of thinking are we to simply ignore these horrendous abuses affecting directly many more thousands of people than the Palestinians and Israelis? Is that what you are suggesting Skdadl?

Oh and why do you keep repeating my name (as I have done with yours above as a demonstration) at the end of each question. I find it offensive and patronizing. I wish you wouldnt do it. I am not your child please dont treat me like that OK?


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Michelle
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posted 05 October 2003 12:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the reason that Israel is focused upon as opposed to other countries that commit horrible human rights violations is because there aren't apologists on babble for those other countries, so therefore there's really not much to talk about. "Hey, the Iranian government really is nasty when they stone women for adultery, aren't they?" "Yeah, they sure are." "Yep, nasty government they've got going on there." "Yep." "And how about Saudi Arabia? Whoooee, now there's some misogynistic people in power there." "Yeah, you're not kidding." "Yep."

The Israel issue, howevcr, attracts debate because there are people on both sides of the issue posting here.

But then, you knew that, Mishei, because you've asked this question many times before on babble and received your answer many times before. And yet you keep asking it. Well, the answer hasn't changed. That's why.

[ 05 October 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


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skdadl
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posted 05 October 2003 12:20 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I am having trouble figuring out the syntax of your second-last paragraph; but whatever you meant, I feel someone should at least note that indeed the Chechens and the Basques have turned to violent resistance tactics.

The problem remains: there are only a few places in the world where superpower or nuclear-power confrontations threaten world war. India-Pakistan is one. North Korea may be one, although a confrontation with China over Tibet would obviously be even more deeply touchy. The whole of Central Asia -- all the Stans, and nations like Chechnya -- would qualify, except for the apparent criminal entente between the U.S. and Russia.

And then there's Palestine, the worst of all because the most blatant example of USian imperialism.

Are there many other nations in the world being oppressed by bullies? No doubt. Do all good people wish that the bullies could be stopped one day? No doubt.

But before that, all people everywhere have a more basic interest: let the species survive. Where nuclear war threatens, that we must stop. And whether you want to admit it or not, Mishei, Ariel Sharon is at the moment competing with the idiots in India and Pakistan for most likely provocateur of a conflagration no one will be able to control once it starts.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 October 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As for the Basques and other oppressed nationalities in European states - no, they haven't received UN observer status but there has been considerable devolution - in Catalonia, in Scotland, in Wales - within the framework of the European Union.

There has been a lot of Basque terrorism (in the sense of attacks on non-military targets) - ETA even assassinates journalists who disagree with them.

Like skdadl, I am utterly terrified of the consequences of the Israel/Palestine conflict and its escalation. I am also terrified that the wall and possible ethnic cleansing of Palestinians will have dire consequences not only for Palestinians, and Israelis, but for Jewish communities in many parts of the world. Not so much North America as certain places in Europe and South America.

I do agree that we should be better informed about such conflicts as Tibet and especially about what is going on in Chechenya, where Putin is getting away with mass murder and being feted as a democrat by the US and the EU.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 October 2003 01:17 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, Mish, you got caught in a lie over your claim about suicide bombings before 1967, so now could you please explain this one:

quote:
There has been ongoing terrorist attacks against Israel however since it was declared a nation by the UN in 1948.

"Ongoing terrorist attacks?" By whom, and with what frequency? Daily? Monthly? Once every 15 years? Ever?

We do know that long after the massacres such as Deir Yassin in 1948, the Israelis were committing atrocities against Palestinians.

Why, the current leader of Israel participated in them as an up-and-coming war criminal in the 1950s.

Read about it


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Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 01:21 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I think the reason that Israel is focused upon as opposed to other countries that commit horrible human rights violations is because there aren't apologists on babble for those other countries, so therefore there's really not much to talk about. "Hey, the Iranian government really is nasty when they stone women for adultery, aren't they?" "Yeah, they sure are." "Yep, nasty government they've got going on there." "Yep." "And how about Saudi Arabia? Whoooee, now there's some misogynistic people in power there." "Yeah, you're not kidding." "Yep."

The Israel issue, howevcr, attracts debate because there are people on both sides of the issue posting here.

But then, you knew that, Mishei, because you've asked this question many times before on babble and received your answer many times before. And yet you keep asking it. Well, the answer hasn't changed. That's why.

[ 05 October 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


Michelle, I am not only speaking of babble, I am speaking of the wrold in general. Read my post!

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Michelle
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posted 05 October 2003 01:23 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was responding to this part of your post where you certainly were singling out babble:

quote:
Yet rarely a word of world protest. How many threads are there about Tibet/China compared to Israel? Perhaps if Tibetans were to engage in suicide bombings maybe we will see more threads huh?"

As for why the world doesn't focus on it - well, I can't answer for the mainstream media, Mishei. People on babble have long deplored many, many issues that they're concerned about that never make the mainstream media.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 05 October 2003 01:27 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The only reason Sharon is in power is because the Palestinians WANT him to be in power. If the Palestinians really wanted a moderate Israeli government that would make a reasonable deal, they would have stopped all terrorist attacks, shown good will towards Israel, let the left of centre parties in Israel triumph. But, no, no, no, every single time it is election time in Israel, you can be sure that just as the sun rises in the morning, there will be terrorist atriocities committed in Israel, just to be absolutely sure that the Right triumphs and the conflict can continue.

Do you really think that all those "glorious" terrorist want to give up a life of adventure so they can pump gas in Jenin post-peace?


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Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 01:28 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Mishei, I am having trouble figuring out the syntax of your second-last paragraph; but whatever you meant, I feel someone should at least note that indeed the Chechens and the Basques have turned to violent resistance tactics.

The problem remains: there are only a few places in the world where superpower or nuclear-power confrontations threaten world war. India-Pakistan is one. North Korea may be one, although a confrontation with China over Tibet would obviously be even more deeply touchy. The whole of Central Asia -- all the Stans, and nations like Chechnya -- would qualify, except for the apparent criminal entente between the U.S. and Russia.

And then there's Palestine, the worst of all because the most blatant example of USian imperialism.

Are there many other nations in the world being oppressed by bullies? No doubt. Do all good people wish that the bullies could be stopped one day? No doubt.

But before that, all people everywhere have a more basic interest: let the species survive. Where nuclear war threatens, that we must stop. And whether you want to admit it or not, Mishei, Ariel Sharon is at the moment competing with the idiots in India and Pakistan for most likely provocateur of a conflagration no one will be able to control once it starts.


Neither Chechnya nor the Basques were ever offered statehood as have the Palestinians.

Pleasde indicate to me how the Palestinian issue would lead to a nuclear war. To the best of anyone's knowledge, other than Israel, there is no other country in that area with a nuclear capability. Iraq was removed from the equation and I would venture to guess that if Iran moved in that direction it too would find itself at the short end of the US stick.

BTW Michelle I reject being called an apologist for Israel as much as you or others here might reject being called an apologist for Hamas. I dont believe you are any such thing because I have seen you reject terrorism. I have also rejected Israeli abuses but you are still quick to label me so as to negate my arguments. Its clearly not fair unless you play by a different set of rules. Let me know what they are and I will play by them too.


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Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 01:32 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Well, Mish, you got caught in a lie over your claim about suicide bombings before 1967, so now could you please explain this one:

You are an ASSHOLE... I made an error and acknowledged it...ASSHOLE


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Michelle
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posted 05 October 2003 01:33 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Do you really think that all those "glorious" terrorist want to give up a life of adventure so they can pump gas in Jenin post-peace?

Yeah, that's why the suicide bombers are killing themselves. Because they don't want employment or stability.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 October 2003 01:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
You are an ASSHOLE... I made an error and acknowledged it...ASSHOLE

Okay, I noticed he accused you of lying when you made an acknowledged mistake as well, but let's not escalate it into a flame war, okay?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 October 2003 01:36 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why blame "babble" for the focus on Palestine? I just checked and saw that of the current threads on the Middle East that were started this month, josh and Mishei started two. Nobody else started more than one thread.

Mish, if you don't like the focus on the Middle east, stop focusing on the middle east. I also noticed that you seemed to me absent for a bit during the last two weeks. I doubt that it was a coincidence that activity in the Middle East threads during that time dropped off to hardly anything. I recall one day in which there were only two posts.

Another example of Mishification: blame others for what you are doing yourself.

Now why don't you run along and start a thread on those Tibetans you care so much about.


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Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 01:37 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Okay, I noticed he accused you of lying when you made an acknowledged mistake as well, but let's not escalate it into a flame war, okay?



Sure maybe I should just not say a word everytime Al does this. That would be sure to stop him.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 01:41 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Why blame "babble" for the focus on Palestine? I just checked and saw that of the current threads on the Middle East that were started this month, josh and Mishei started two. Nobody else started more than one thread.

Mish, if you don't like the focus on the Middle east, stop focusing on the middle east. I also noticed that you seemed to me absent for a bit during the last two weeks. I doubt that it was a coincidence that activity in the Middle East threads during that time dropped off to hardly anything. I recall one day in which there were only two posts.

Another example of Mishification: blame others for what you are doing yourself.

Now why don't you run along and start a thread on those Tibetans you care so much about.


Yes I have suggested that babble certainly pays an inordiante amount of attention to the Middle East to the exclusion of other issues. And yes I too am partly to blame for this.

However, I am frankly more concerned with the UN and the world community focussing their attention on villifying Israel to the exclusion of much more serious human rights abuses. It doesnt excuse Israel for any alleged wrong doing it just tells you where some are at.


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skdadl
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posted 05 October 2003 01:41 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I would venture to guess that if Iran moved in that direction it too would find itself at the short end of the US stick.

Good God. You like this kind of thing, Mishei?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 October 2003 01:41 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh my.

How about this then?:

Well, Mish, you got caught in an "error" over your claim about suicide bombings before 1967, so now could you please explain this one:

quote:
There has been ongoing terrorist attacks against Israel however since it was declared a nation by the UN in 1948.

You may have seen the rest of the question...


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 October 2003 01:44 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excuse me Michelle, I'm not trying to flame here.

quote:
Sure maybe I should just not say a word everytime Al does this. That would be sure to stop him.

Every time I do what? Don't make "errors" and nobody will challenge you on them.


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Michelle
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posted 05 October 2003 01:46 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
However, I am frankly more concerned with the UN and the world community focussing their attention on villifying Israel to the exclusion of much more serious human rights abuses.

Whereas other posters are more concerned with how the UN and the world community respond to Palestinian human rights issues than others. Which is why it gets talked about so much on babble.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 01:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Good God. You like this kind of thing, Mishei?


Good God NO..Where did I say I LIKED it??????????

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 October 2003 01:53 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Excuse me Michelle, I'm not trying to flame here.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

Now, Mishei, you have equated being called an apologist for Israel with being called an apologist for Hamas. You said that calling you an apologist for Israel is as bad as me being called an apologist for Hamas.

So are you saying that Israel and Hamas are on an equal level morally then? You are always the one saying that Israel cannot be compared to Hamas because Hamas are terrorists and Israel is not. So obviously your analogy, at least on YOUR terms, doesn't fit. (Although considering that the IDF has killed two or three times as many people during the intifada as Hamas has, people might think that a comparison between the two is valid.)

I would say a better analogy would be Israeli apologist / Palestinian apologist. And I wouldn't be offended at being called a Palestinian apologist. Why are you offended at being called an Israeli apologist?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 05 October 2003 01:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, as John Wayne used to say, Listen, and listen tight:

Rely on the USian big stick, especially as wielded by the current USian admin, and you are playing with the prospect of nuclear war.

Ariel Sharon is one of the people who is feeding and provoking this eventuality. Israel as a nation has run for too long dependent on the USian big stick. I'm sure there are many Israelis who regret and lament that -- but something is going to have to happen fast to head off disaster.

Squashing the Palestinians means disaster. And that appears to be where we are going.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 05 October 2003 02:18 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah, that's why the suicide bombers are killing themselves. Because they don't want employment or stability.


I suppose that in their twisted minds they get to have everlasting martyrdom and get monuments put up in their honour etc... plus they apparently all believe that after doing a suiceide bombing they will go to some paradise where the the rivers are flowing with yogurt (yuck)) and that they can spend eternity with 80 odd dark eyed virgins.

Who wants to have regular job doing manual labour when all this can be yours!


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Michelle
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posted 05 October 2003 02:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And what do westerners who go off to fight wars for truth and justice and country believe in, Stockholm? Where are they told by their leaders that they're going to go if they die in battle?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 05 October 2003 02:53 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And what do westerners who go off to fight wars for truth and justice and country believe in, Stockholm? Where are they told by their leaders that they're going to go if they die in battle?

Of course we (in the west) also imply that there is something noble about losing your life for your country in battle. and I agree that this is also a problem. BUT, I cannot think of any cases where "western" countries had hordes of people committing suicide (ie: facing 100% certain death) for the motherland - much less suicide in ordere to attack civilian as opposed to military targets. Instead, it has been a matter of going to war aginst other soldiers where there was a possibility of not coming back.

I believe that regardless of the cause, there is NEVER any justification for targetting civilians. If Israel wanted to target Palestinian civilians they could easily blow up schools and hospitals and try to inflict maximum casualties - but they don't. Yes, innocent people have been killed during targetted attacks on terrorist leaders, but Israel has never purposely tried to kill Palestinains civilians for no other reason than to shed blood.

If the Palestinians really feel so "powerless" etc... I think they are aiming at the wrong targets. Why kill 19 people who are mix of Arabs and Israelis who are themselves totally powerless sitting unarmed in a restaurant - totally unable to defend themselves. Why don't these terrorists and suicide bombers restrict themselves 100% to attacking MILITARY and POLITICAL targets. let them attack military bases, blow up buses full of soldiers, let them assassinate rightwing Israeli politicians, let them sabotage the construction of the "security wall". But none of those things would satisfy their blood lust. No, no, no, they have to make sure that civilians suffer as much as possible. Killing soldiers just wouldn't grab enough headlines.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 October 2003 03:42 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I suppose that in their twisted minds they get to have everlasting martyrdom and get monuments put up in their honour etc... plus they apparently all believe that after doing a suiceide bombing they will go to some paradise where the the rivers are flowing with yogurt (yuck)) and that they can spend eternity with 80 odd dark eyed virgins.

Try for a less fanciful motivation Stockholm ("Stockholm"...where Count Bernadotte was from?), and perhaps you won't sound so ridiculous.

quote:
The militant group identified the woman who had wrapped herself in explosives as Hanadi Jaradat, a 27-year-old law student from the West Bank town of Jenin.

Jaradat's family said that she was avenging the death of her brother.


CBC

Miss Jaradat lost a brother (and as I've heard on CBC radio - a cousin as well) to Israeli violence, here on Earth. I doubt that thoughts of "80 odd dark eyed virgins" ever occurred to her.

[ 05 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 05 October 2003 04:02 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Miss Jaradat lost a brother (and as I've heard on CBC radio - a cousin as well) to Israeli violence, here on Earth.

There are probably a good 100 Israelis who lost a close relative in Haifa yesterday. Are you suggesting that they each take the law into their own hands and wantonly blow up Palestinians civilians wherever they find them? Does revenge justify murder of innocents? Were any of those 19 people dircetly responsible for the death of her brother?

Here in Canada we tend to condemn vigilanteism in all forms. But i guess some people have a soft sport in their hearts for it as long as its Arabs killing Israelis.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 October 2003 04:04 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't have a soft spot for vigilantism. But I also recognize that there is a war going on, and the weapons used by the Palestinians aren't nearly as lethal as the ones used by the IDF, as the body count will tell you.

Of course, I deplore war of all kinds. But I guess I'm not a good enough Christian to think that people should just roll over and take whatever oppression is meted out. I hate the suicide bombing, I hate the military force used by the IDF, and I hate the occupation.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 October 2003 04:10 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
P.S. Why is it vigilantism when a suicide bomber kills people in retaliation for the occupation, but it's not vigilantism when the IDF bulldozes a village or bombs it with missiles in retaliation for suicide bombings?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 05 October 2003 04:14 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Strictly speaking, Michelle, it's not vigilantism. It's collective punishment which is the hallmark of tyrants and imperial powers.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 05 October 2003 04:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And is also a violation of the Geneva conventions.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 05 October 2003 04:28 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Here in Canada we tend to condemn vigilanteism in all forms. But i guess some people have a soft sport in their hearts for it as long as its Arabs killing Israelis.


quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

But WHY are people blowing us up, Mishei? Why why why?

It is just because they are "evil-doers"? Mishei, I am never gonna accept that. I don't have your unshakeable sense of righteousness, I guess.

I have this nagging feeling that people who hate us have cause.


Oh, the guilt!

Yup, if someone blows your ass to Kingdom Come,
you'll have had it coming.

It's a war, folks, and you've chosen sides.

Where is victory, where peace?

Let's hope it's not the peace of the grave.


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 October 2003 04:44 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are you suggesting that they [Israelis who have lost family members to violence] each take the law into their own hands and wantonly blow up Palestinians civilians wherever they find them?

How do you move from me suggesting that Miss Jaradat was not motivated by the "80 virgins in Paradise" line (a line that, incidentally, racists commonly use to dismiss the legitimate sources of anger at the West by the Arab world) to suggesting that I endorse vigilante violence?

You're making yourself sound ridiculous again.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 05:27 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Thanks. I appreciate it.

Now, Mishei, you have equated being called an apologist for Israel with being called an apologist for Hamas. You said that calling you an apologist for Israel is as bad as me being called an apologist for Hamas.

So are you saying that Israel and Hamas are on an equal level morally then? You are always the one saying that Israel cannot be compared to Hamas because Hamas are terrorists and Israel is not. So obviously your analogy, at least on YOUR terms, doesn't fit. (Although considering that the IDF has killed two or three times as many people during the intifada as Hamas has, people might think that a comparison between the two is valid.)

I would say a better analogy would be Israeli apologist / Palestinian apologist. And I wouldn't be offended at being called a Palestinian apologist. Why are you offended at being called an Israeli apologist?


No please do not put words into my mouth. That is not like you. I do not equate the two and please never say or even hint that i do . That is offensive to me.

The term "apologist" has always had negative conotations. I prefer to be called a defender of Israel.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 October 2003 05:33 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So how about it, Mish?

quote:
There has been ongoing terrorist attacks against Israel however since it was declared a nation by the UN in 1948.

Wait.

Don't tell me.

You were walking to your computer when you tripped over one of your kid's roller skates, as you fell on to your keyboard, your fingers inadvertently typed this assertion.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 October 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If the Palestinians really feel so "powerless" etc... I think they are aiming at the wrong targets. Why kill 19 people who are mix of Arabs and Israelis who are themselves totally powerless sitting unarmed in a restaurant - totally unable to defend themselves. Why don't these terrorists and suicide bombers restrict themselves 100% to attacking MILITARY and POLITICAL targets. let them attack military bases, blow up buses full of soldiers, let them assassinate rightwing Israeli politicians, let them sabotage the construction of the "security wall". But none of those things would satisfy their blood lust. No, no, no, they have to make sure that civilians suffer as much as possible. Killing soldiers just wouldn't grab enough headlines.


Stockholm, I take it this is a rhetorical question. The minds behind suicide bombings understand that if these "brave" souls were to take on soldiers ...heavens they may fail in their ultimate goal which is to murder innocent Israelis.

You have sadly hit the nail on the head here. Children, mothers with babies in cafes and discos, in parks and markets are far easier to murder than soldiers. In essence the bombing murderers are automotons being taken advantage of by hateful, anti-Jewish scum cowards


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 05 October 2003 06:47 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
When Israel is completely demoralized,
and General Arafat turns the Mediterranean red with Jewish blood, the remaining Jews may then embrace Allah or face oblivion.

How long the Israelis can hang on is anyone's guess.


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 05 October 2003 07:31 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*cough* Siege mentality *cough*
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 October 2003 08:09 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In essence the bombing murderers are automotons being taken advantage of by hateful, anti-Jewish scum cowards

"automotons" In other words, not really human at all.

As for the rest, "blah blah blah, I'm good they're evil, blah blah blah hate hate hate."

And Mish, your roaring silence over my repeated request that you fess up to your previous comment speaks volumes.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ice Foot
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posted 06 October 2003 12:26 AM      Profile for Ice Foot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arafat, Qurie Condemn Suicide Bombing in Israel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - Palestinian President Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) condemned a suicide bombing which killed 19 people at a restaurant in Israel on Saturday and his prime minister-designate called for an end to attacks on civilians.
Arafat said in a statement the attack gave Israel a pretext to obstruct international peace efforts and contradicted Palestinian national interests.

"President Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian leadership strongly condemn the 'explosion operation' at Maxim restaurant in Haifa in which Israeli civilians and Arabs were killed," the written statement said.

"President Arafat considers this grave explosion operation a departure from the national consensus in this critical situation and it exposes the higher interests of the Palestinian people to serious dangers."

Arafat urged Israel to withdraw from Palestinian territory and immediately allow international observers to come to the region. Israel has opposed such calls.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The violence over there seems to know no end. Always back and forth with such brutality. Neither side's hands are clean if you ask me, but clearly Sharon sends orders to the IDF while Arafat is not sending orders to suicide bombers like today's tragic event. Doesn't the logic always come back to ending the illegal occupation??
[/QUOTE]


From: Waterloo | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 October 2003 10:57 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stockholm wrote:

"If the Palestinians really feel so "powerless" etc... I think they are aiming at the wrong targets. Why kill 19 people who are mix of Arabs and Israelis who are themselves totally powerless sitting unarmed in a restaurant - totally unable to defend themselves. Why don't these terrorists and suicide bombers restrict themselves 100% to attacking MILITARY and POLITICAL targets. let them attack military bases, blow up buses full of soldiers, let them assassinate rightwing Israeli politicians, let them sabotage the construction of the "security wall". But none of those things would satisfy their blood lust. No, no, no, they have to make sure that civilians suffer as much as possible. Killing soldiers just wouldn't grab enough headlines. "

Very simple. Military installation and the west bank settlements are heaving defended. So it is difficult to pull off such an attack. This is not to defend the targeting of civilians, but simply a practical explanation. When one side is denied the traditional weapons of war, and the other side refuses to end the occupation and there is no prospect that any pressure will cause them to end the occupation, and they continue to colonize the occupied land, a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness results. This leads to the tactic of suicide bombings.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 06 October 2003 11:19 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Besides, when they DO attack specific political targets, with no "collateral damage", they're condemned as terrorists anyway. Remember the Israeli tourism minister?

The basic formula is simple:

attacks by Palestinians = terrorism
attacks by Israel = justified retaliation

Who or what is specifically attacked, and how, is irrelevant to the Compleat Israeli Apologist.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 06 October 2003 11:30 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is not to defend the targeting of civilians, but simply a practical explanation. When one side is denied the traditional weapons of war, and the other side refuses to end the occupation and there is no prospect that any pressure will cause them to end the occupation, and they continue to colonize the occupied land, a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness results.

Does anyone seriously think that Israel ending the "occupation" would stop terrorism and suicide bombings?? I think that if there were IRONCLAD guarantees that there wouuld never be a single solitary terrorist attack on Israel again for the next hundred years in exchange for a full withdrawal from the occupied territories, Israel would have ended the occupation long ago. But there has never been such a guarantee. Most of the groups behind the suicide bombings will not settle for just the return of the West Bank and Gaza, they want downtown Tel Aviv.

From Israel's point of view if you give the Arabs your finger, they take your hand, you give them your hand, they take your arm etc... etc... the Arabs have never done much to disabuse Israelis of this notion.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 October 2003 11:37 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stockholm says:

"Does anyone seriously think that Israel ending the "occupation" would stop terrorism and suicide bombings?? I think that if there were IRONCLAD guarantees that there wouuld never be a single solitary terrorist attack on Israel again for the next hundred years in exchange for a full withdrawal from the occupied territories, Israel would have ended the occupation long ago."

You obviously are not a member of the Likud party, or parties to the right of the Likud. They believe in a greater land of Israel. They would not withdraw from the occupied territories if the Palestinians promised to be their slaves for the next 100 years.

As for your first point, we could only find out if the Palestinians were put to the test.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 06 October 2003 11:56 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You obviously are not a member of the Likud party, or parties to the right of the Likud. They believe in a greater land of Israel. They would not withdraw from the occupied territories if the Palestinians promised to be their slaves for the next 100 years.

As for your first point, we could only find out if the Palestinians were put to the test.


Had it not been for the Palestinian strategy of increasing terrorist attacks during Israeli election campaigns - Likud would not be in power and this would be a moot point.

As for your second point, we have put the Palestinians to the "test". For several years after the Oslo accords, Israel withdrew from the vast majority of the occupied terrories to the point where over 90% of Palestinians lived under the rule of the Palestinian Authority. If peace had prevailed, a full withdrawal would have followed. Instead, the Palestinians increased the level of terrorist attack and simply used the terrories that Israel withdrew from as a base to launch more and more attacks on Civilians in Israel. Israel responded with a re-occupation.

If all terrorism had ended in 1993, there would a a nation called Palestine today that would consist of over 90% of the formerly occupied terrories. Seems like the Palestinian leaderships attitude is "we don't want 95% of a loaf, we want 100% or nothing".


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 October 2003 12:01 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For several years after the Oslo accords, Israel withdrew from the vast majority of the occupied terrories to the point where over 90% of Palestinians lived under the rule of the Palestinian Authority.

And yet the rate of settlement construction escalated, and there were no terrorist attacks.

Ed. (or no attacks that I'm aware of, at least)

[ 06 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 October 2003 12:32 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:


Had it not been for the Palestinian strategy of increasing terrorist attacks during Israeli election campaigns - Likud would not be in power and this would be a moot point.

As for your second point, we have put the Palestinians to the "test". For several years after the Oslo accords, Israel withdrew from the vast majority of the occupied terrories to the point where over 90% of Palestinians lived under the rule of the Palestinian Authority. If peace had prevailed, a full withdrawal would have followed. Instead, the Palestinians increased the level of terrorist attack and simply used the terrories that Israel withdrew from as a base to launch more and more attacks on Civilians in Israel. Israel responded with a re-occupation.


Except for a flare-up in 1996 after Israel killed a Hamas leader, there was little of what you describe between 1993 and 2000. It was only after the collapse of Camp David and Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, that such attackes escalated. Moreover, as has been noted, Israel doubled the amount of "settlers" after Oslo.

And as indicated by your first paragraph, the Palestinian organizations are not monolithic. The PLO does not control Hamas and vice versa. However, the only election where suicide attacks made a difference was in 1996, when they damaged Peres's chances. Barak was in deep trouble before Camp David.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 06 October 2003 12:45 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The PLO does not control Hamas and vice versa. However, the only election where suicide attacks made a difference was in 1996, when they damaged Peres's chances.

So, would you concede that there are powerful forces among the Palestinians who think that it is in their long-term interest for Israel to have the most reactionary government possible and who rooted for Netanyahu to defeat Peres?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 October 2003 01:19 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes. Just as the last thing Sharon and Co. want is a "moderate" Palestinian leader to emerge.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 October 2003 01:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who were committing acts of terrorism between 1993 and 2000?

Try asking Itzhak Rabin about this one.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 October 2003 03:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
So how about it, Mish?

Wait.

Don't tell me.

You were walking to your computer when you tripped over one of your kid's roller skates, as you fell on to your keyboard, your fingers inadvertently typed this assertion.


You are kidding right?

Between 1948 and 1967, Palestinian fedayeen sponsored by Egypt and Syria murdered Israeli civilians in hundreds of cross border raids. These murders took place before Israel occupied any Palestinian land or built even one settlement outside the area it was given pusuant to the UN partition plan of 1948.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 October 2003 05:30 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Ongoing attacks"? "Hundreds" of civilians killed?

You'll have to excuse my scepticism, but when you say such things, given your habit of making utterances that are inconsistent with known facts and your predilection for hyperbole, my natural reaction to anything you say is doubt.

Throw me a bone; name one instance. It may even be the only attack ever carried out, but name one.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 October 2003 05:46 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
100 posts.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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