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Author Topic: Sheik Ahmed Yassin
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 03 October 2003 12:55 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A few weeks ago I asked what a Palestinian ruled by Sheik Ahmed Yassin would look like. I was ignored. I know it isn't relevant to the current situation, but could somebody please answer my question?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 03 October 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CMOT, I could be wrong, but I have never been aware of anyone on babble who was in favour of letting Hamas run Palestine.

Yours seems such an odd question to me. That's probably why no one ever answered it. Why do you ask?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 October 2003 03:17 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yours seems such an odd question to me. That's probably why no one ever answered it. Why do you ask?

I think the question was originally directed at me, and yes, I find it too strange, incomprehensible even, to answer.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 03 October 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yours seems such an odd question to me. That's probably why no one ever answered it. Why do you ask?


I'm asking the question because I'm interested in alternate historys. I've sometimes wondered what would have happened if Genghis Khan had conquered Western europe or if patrice Lumuba hadn't been murdered. Politically speaking, what would happen to Palestine under Yassin's rule would it become a wahabist statelet?
I don't mean to offend anyone.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 October 2003 10:35 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think anyone is offended. Nobody responded to the question because it's bizarre.

Why don't you ponder the prospect of a Palestine under Hamas rule, and then tell us about your conclusions?

No, wait. First ponder the prospect of Palestinians free of Israeli rule before taking on your idea.

[ 04 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
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posted 09 October 2003 12:31 AM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would presume it would be like any other autocratic, racist, sexist Arab state like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan (slavery), Jordan (honor killing of women is a way of life), Egypt (a repressive dictatorship), Syria (terrorist supporting, autocratic dictatorship occupying Lebanon) -- you know one of those secular, democratic states where Jew and Moslem can live together in peace and harmony.
From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 09 October 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It bothers me, this assumption that the kind of justice they deserve is contingent on whether they agree with us. That Israel or the US is more deserving of our support, regardless of what they do, simply because they have some characteristic of liberal democracy. I am, needless to say, deeply uncomfortable with this proposition.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 09 October 2003 11:31 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peacefulnotion:
I would presume it would be like any other autocratic, racist, sexist Arab state like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan (slavery), Jordan (honor killing of women is a way of life), Egypt (a repressive dictatorship), Syria (terrorist supporting, autocratic dictatorship occupying Lebanon) -- you know one of those secular, democratic states where Jew and Moslem can live together in peace and harmony.

Without knowing it (obviously), Peacefulnotion raises an issue of interest here.

In my reading of the disastrous, murderous politics of all those states named above, they are the results of a century's worth of meddling (at least that) by the Western European powers and then the U.S. in Arab national politics. Even today, Saudi Arabia is clearly an American client state, one of the worst, as are Jordan and Egypt to varying degrees. The horrors of imperialist mucking-about in Iran are well known, and Syria and Sudan (hey! Canadian capitalism too!) are variations on the same theme.

The many ironies of USian funding of the very people who now hate Americans most are going to keep historians busy for centuries, if the world survives present conflagrations, of course.

Some people seem to think that murderous confrontations in the Middle East are rooted in the sheer perversity of Arab/Muslim -- what? culture? nature? genes? How superior of such people. How disgusting, given that all North Americans are still beneficiaries of the rape of all Middle Eastern nations by Europeans and North Americans.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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Babbler # 3391

posted 09 October 2003 01:05 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Some people seem to think that murderous confrontations in the Middle East are rooted in the sheer perversity of Arab/Muslim -- what? culture? nature? genes? How superior of such people. How disgusting, given that all North Americans are still beneficiaries of the rape of all Middle Eastern nations by Europeans and North Americans.


web page

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.
In a rare criticism of the kingdom's powerful "mutaween" police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday.

About 800 pupils were inside the school in the holy city of Mecca when the tragedy occurred.


15 girls died in the blaze and more than 50 others were injured

According to the al-Eqtisadiah daily, firemen confronted police after they tried to keep the girls inside because they were not wearing the headscarves and abayas (black robes) required by the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islam.

One witness said he saw three policemen "beating young girls to prevent them from leaving the school because they were not wearing the abaya".

The Saudi Gazette quoted witnesses as saying that the police - known as the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice - had stopped men who tried to help the girls and warned "it is a sinful to approach them".

The father of one of the dead girls said that the school watchman even refused to open the gates to let the girls out.

"Lives could have been saved had they not been stopped by members of the Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice," the newspaper concluded.

Relatives' anger

Families of the victims have been incensed over the deaths.

Most of the victims were crushed in a stampede as they tried to flee the blaze.

The school was locked at the time of the fire - a usual practice to ensure full segregation of the sexes.

The religious police are widely feared in Saudi Arabia. They roam the streets enforcing dress codes and sex segregation, and ensuring prayers are performed on time.

Those who refuse to obey their orders are often beaten and sometimes put in jail.

----------------------------

Of course incidents like this, and the torture of William Sampson, and an array of other human rights abuses, are all the fault of us greedy imperialist, hegemonic, raping, racist, arrogant westerners, who can doubt it?

So sorry, but I don't buy it.
Many of us simply don't share your pathological guilt trip.


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
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Babbler # 2474

posted 09 October 2003 01:06 PM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's interesting to consider to what degree states represent the values willed by their citizens (voting or not).

If the only accessible source of food is a choice between Burger King and McDonald's, sooner or later my complexion's going to look rotten. I could avoid the problem by obtaining (through some level of treachery, that being the only available, and habitual, means of advancement) the wherewithal to invest in a franchise--because then, naturally, I could dine elsewhere. My complexion would then clear up, and I could smirk at the woeful state of my fellow citizens.


From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 October 2003 02:01 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There are repressive fundamentalists everywhere.

But they don't acquire political power everywhere.

Intelligent people sit back and ask themselves, "Now, gee: how did those nutbars acquire the power that they have in that particular place?"

And in Saudi Arabia, there are a lot of very particular answers, stretching back almost a century.

Do try to be a good empiricist, ES.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 09 October 2003 02:08 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Those emerge, Mr/Ms. Tinfoil Hat (why am I wasting precious flood control moments on this troll?), from the ideologies that have taken root in Saudi Arabia. So the question is, what happened (and is still happening) to give these ideologies strength? They didn't come out of nowhere, Hat. They came out of a (continuing) history. They are being propped up.

Emotive appeals to a burning school can never erase the terrible logic of why it happened.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 09 October 2003 02:40 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
(why am I wasting precious flood control moments on this troll?)


Because you just can't help yourself.


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 09 October 2003 03:08 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Man, do you ever post anything substantial? I'm just about at the point of redefining my support of banning to include people who are humourlessly wasting time.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 October 2003 03:27 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:

Of course incidents like this, and the torture of William Sampson, and an array of other human rights abuses, are all the fault of us greedy imperialist, hegemonic, raping, racist, arrogant westerners, who can doubt it?

So sorry, but I don't buy it.
Many of us simply don't share your pathological guilt trip.


Perhaps not. However, what is interesting is that in trying to play the blame game, you fail to explore the fact that there was a CONFLICT over the decision. Some 'Muslims' stopped the firemen, while the firemen -- also 'Muslims' -- protested, as did the media (more 'Muslims' - can't Those People agree on anything!) afterword. In other words, there is something more substantial going on than 'Muslim-ness'. There is clearly a social conflict involving power stratifications and state power where state power is aiding one particular ideology over others.

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 09 October 2003 03:42 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
My point was that it's not my (our) fault.
Those elements of Saudi society that seek to reform the excesses of Wahhabism are certainly worthy of support.

From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 October 2003 03:48 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:
My point was that it's not my (our) fault.
Those elements of Saudi society that seek to reform the excesses of Wahhabism are certainly worthy of support.

I wouldn't say that we are entirely guiltless. The strength of the House of Saud -- who have adopted a form of Wahabbism for it's politically repressive character -- is dependent on their relations with Western governments and Western oil interests. Without billions of dollars in oil money (in American dollars) and military/security support, the social picture in Saudi Arabia could be very different.

If you are concerned with helping those who oppose the official version of Wahabbism and it's manifestations as a political weapon, you should lobby your government, and/or large investors in Saudi Arabia's oil and security industries to change their policies and make their relationship with the House of Saud conditioned on changes.

Somehow, I don't think you'll even think twice when you fill up your tank...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 October 2003 03:49 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"It's not my fault."

Ye gods. How old are you, ES? Serious human beings abandon that sentence by eighteen, latest.

You are a human being, ES. (Ok, ok, I'm giving ES the benefit of the doubt there.) It's not a question of "fault," you silly twit. It's a question of your connection to the rest of the species.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 09 October 2003 03:56 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Well, stew in you own guilt. I politely and respectfully decline.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 October 2003 04:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Guilt is your childish interpretation, ES.

Responsibility is the healthy way for a citizen of a democracy who wishes to see democracy flourish everywhere to think.

You accuse others of dreadful crimes, but as soon as someone shows you the connection between the spoiled bratty way that you live and those dreadful crimes, you just take refuge in being a spoiled brat.

Fine: but then where do you get the chutzpah to accuse the (admittedly much richer) spoiled brats of Saudi Arabia, so mightily supported by your USian gov't, of committing crimes?

Damn Flood Control.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sisyphus
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posted 09 October 2003 04:05 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For some reason, I have wanted to shout something like this from the rooftops all day. I'm going to repeat it in bold:

quote:
It's not a question of "fault," you silly twit. It's a question of your connection to the rest of the species.


Thanks, skdadl, I have a smile on:
.


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 October 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sisyphus:
For some reason, I have wanted to shout something like this from the rooftops all day. I'm going to repeat it in bold:


Thanks, skdadl, I have a smile on:
.


Just came back from a stroll in the park with a good cup of coffee, a great sandwich and this week's NOW Magazine (nosogood...). I had a little grin on my face and was quietly humming a favorite theme from the Broken Social Scene album that matched the quasi-triumphant feeling I had given all these fortuitous circumstances. Then I saw what skdadl wrote and your response and my grin became wider; a smile even. Thanks, some days it's nice to know someone out there is tuned into the same radio station, you know?

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 October 2003 04:34 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
it's nice to know someone out there is tuned into the same radio station, you know?

We do requests.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 October 2003 04:37 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:
Well, stew in you own guilt. I politely and respectfully decline.

I don't feel particularly guilty - just the same way I would if I knew that something that I did -which was possible to change without great injury to myself - was injurious to my mother, or father, or brother, or sister-in-law, or girlfriend, or friend, or housemate, or co-worker, or boss, or rich guy in his Ferrari, or poor guy on the corner, or Saudi Arabian person living under a repressive government aided and abetted by my own government and their oil-swilling friends...

It's not guilt, it's having a purpose other than my own...

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 10 October 2003 02:21 AM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

You accuse others of dreadful crimes, but as soon as someone shows you the connection between the spoiled bratty way that you live and those dreadful crimes, you just take refuge in being a spoiled brat.


This is brainless twaddle. I posted a BBC page.
And you know nothing about the way I live, but don't let that stop your jawboning gibberish.

It's quite clear that you have made unwarranted assumptions on nothing more than ignorance. This deserves our scorn, unqualified scorn.


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 10 October 2003 10:17 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What assumptions? You have the time to post to babble, have been afforded a modicum of literacy, etc, etc...
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 10 October 2003 10:32 AM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
You too, huh? Brevity becomes you.

[ 10 October 2003: Message edited by: EarthShadow ]


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 10 October 2003 10:56 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The difference being, of course, that I am not a tinfoil hat sock puppet and therefore somewhat more immune to the charges that skdadl laid against you.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 10 October 2003 11:04 AM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Put a sock in it.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 10 October 2003 11:16 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What for? It's not like I was ever banned or anything. I got nuttin' ta fear.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 October 2003 12:21 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
S.P.E.C.T.R.E. operatives, beware!
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
workerandparasite
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posted 10 October 2003 09:11 PM      Profile for workerandparasite     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The oil argument. It plays a huge, huge role in the power politics of the region and IS the driving force for western involvement.

I just don't like it when people bring it up in this kind of context "Somehow, I don't think you'll even think twice when you fill up your tank..."

Seriously, does ANYONE really think about it when they fill their tank up, take a plane, take the bus, use anything with plastic it, or any of the other tens of thousands of petroleum related products. If I thought about it everytime, and decided to boycott middle east oil because the hypocrisy, shame and guilt of supporting such regiemes was driving me insane, I would cease to become a productive member of society.

I'm not trying to apologize for the the west and what they are doing/not doing over there...I am trying to look at the situation realistically. Regardless of what we may have done and what we are doing, we are tied to the Middle East, whether we like it or not. The hydrogen economy is along ways off...and we need oil to get there.

I suppose, that Canada as a nation, could stop importing any oil from the middle east...only import from nations that have some sort of 'fair-trade oil' certifications...but that would probably only narrow it down to Scandinavia, and ourselves...and we in B.C. are not exactly down with the idea of drilling in our own lands.


From: Victoria (Transplanted Mackenzie-ite) | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 11 October 2003 12:18 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course, if we absolutely HAVE to have Middle Eastern oil, we (that is, the West) could stop propping up vile and repugnant dictatorships from one end of the region to the other, let the people there choose their own governments, let them own and control their own oil, and then sell it to us as equal trading partners. Y'know, what Mossadeq tried to do in Iran in the 1950's.

Of course, if we did that, then our oil companies wouldn't get the vast profits (they'd go to the people of the region instead); our puppet dictators wouldn't deposit their share of the oil wealth in Western financial institutions for bankers and speculators to play with; and the country which currently dominates the Middle East (the US) wouldn't be able to use its control over those incomparable energy reserves as geopoliical leverage against its rivals.

Not gonna happen.

(At least if the likes of Bush & Halliburton have their way.)

And we all remember what happened to Mossadeq, right?


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged

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