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Author Topic: Israeli system restricts movement of 2 month old terrorist
Briguy
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posted 02 October 2003 09:29 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My Baby Boy's American Freedoms Vanish In Occupied Palestine

quote:
My son was born in San Francisco. He is an American. He was also born to a Palestinian father. He is also Palestinian. This summer, at 6 weeks old, he became an international traveler, with a brand new American passport, when we traveled to Palestine to introduce him to his father's family. Two days before we were supposed to return to America, we were told by the Israeli military that my infant son was not allowed to travel with me on his American passport. As a Palestinian citizen, he was subject to the regulations of the Israeli military occupation and needed a Palestinian passport and permission from the Israeli army to leave the country.

...

For the next 10 days, we felt as if we were imprisoned. By night, Israeli military jeeps patrolled the streets. By day, Israeli soldiers manned checkpoints outside the town, restricting entry and exit. Over the hill, the Israeli army was confiscating Palestinian farmers' fields – and ripping out ancient olive groves – to build a towering concrete wall to encircle Palestinian towns. We called the Palestinian officials every day, but they were helpless. The Israeli army controlled all domestic and international travel for Palestinians, but the military was no longer taking their calls. I could leave, but my son and my husband were not allowed to come with me.


After many telephone calls, agonizing delays, and sleepless nights, we made it out of Palestine – and I learned that there were things from which I could never protect my son. Outside Palestine, we are Americans together, equal in our rights and freedoms. In Israel and Palestine, we are classed in different categories: I am still an American and have freedom, but he is a Palestinian and has only the rights and freedoms that Israel decides to allow him. Whether 2 months old or 20, Israel will always see my son as a generic security threat, to be controlled and hemmed in by secret military orders and large fences. Although we share one nationality, his other citizenship stands between us like impassable chasm, stranding him beyond my reach in a nightmare of disenfranchisement and occupation.



From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 02 October 2003 10:26 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well if you don't watch those infants you don't know what trouble they might get into.
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skdadl
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posted 02 October 2003 10:47 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
his other citizenship stands between us like impassable chasm, stranding him beyond my reach in a nightmare of disenfranchisement and occupation.

That is beautifully put -- an aching sort of beauty, of course.

It gives new meaning to that old but always piercing realization of the new parent, that he/she/they have just produced a "hostage to the future."


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 October 2003 12:50 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
My Baby Boy's American Freedoms Vanish In Occupied Palestine


The area composed of Israel and the PA is presently a haven for real terrorists. I sympathize with this family and wish with all my heart that young Hisham could live in a place where such restrictions never had to apply.

The title of this thread however is unecessarily provocative and should be changed. Otherwise it is based on a lie.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 02 October 2003 12:52 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oops, my mistake.

[ 02 October 2003: Message edited by: Slim ]


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Michelle
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posted 02 October 2003 12:55 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No. The thread title doesn't have to be changed. It's provocative, true, but not "unnecessarily" provocative. It's satirical and I have no problem with that.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 02 October 2003 01:50 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei claims to sympathize and to hope Wonderful Things, but he doesn't realize that his ideology is the very reason why the child and his parents suffered this. Or he refuses to realize it.

The Israeli government and a significant part of its people do see the child as a threat, very much a real and direct terrorist threat. Because demography has become terrorism.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 02 October 2003 02:42 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
The area composed of Israel and the PA is presently a haven for real terrorists. I sympathize with this family and wish with all my heart that young Hisham could live in a place where such restrictions never had to apply.

The title of this thread however is unecessarily provocative and should be changed. Otherwise it is based on a lie.


Of course they are lies Mishei, Just like the lie of Israel being a democratic state. Why do you sypathize for little Hisham? If he were 20 years older, would you still sympathize?

BTW Great Title


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josh
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posted 02 October 2003 02:56 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"The title of this thread however is unecessarily provocative and should be changed. Otherwise it is based on a lie."

So says Mishei.

Mishei is all upset about a provocative thread title, but his silence is deafening when it comes to the substance of the following threads:

Israel's use of the wall to confiscate Palestinian land

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000575

Israel's plans to expand illegal west bank settlements

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000593

The ADL honouring Berlusconi

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=005019&p=

It seems as though Mishei's indignation is quite selective, and misplaced.

[ 02 October 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 October 2003 04:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
No. The thread title doesn't have to be changed. It's provocative, true, but not "unnecessarily" provocative. It's satirical and I have no problem with that.
No it is more than provocative. It is nonsensical and not satirical. I have seen other thread titles that people have changed for far less. Ah but alas on the Mid East Board we get to really stretch the limits of decency.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 October 2003 04:22 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
Mishei claims to sympathize and to hope Wonderful Things, but he doesn't realize that his ideology is the very reason why the child and his parents suffered this. Or he refuses to realize it.

The Israeli government and a significant part of its people do see the child as a threat, very much a real and direct terrorist threat. Because demography has become terrorism.


No actually it is the Hamas et al terrorists who are the cause...It is the murderous campaign carried out by Palestinian extremists where they tie bombs to their bodies and murder innocent Israeli men women and children...it is the perverted leadership in the guise of Yasser Arafat "statesman"...theses are the real reasons but you are afraid to face the truth.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 October 2003 04:36 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No it is more than provocative. It is nonsensical and not satirical. I have seen other thread titles that people have changed for far less. Ah but alas on the Mid East Board we get to really stretch the limits of decency.

I'm surprised you haven't accused me of crossing the line, or being beyond the pale. You are losing your touch, Mishei.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 October 2003 04:38 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Those are reasons for treating this mother and this child this way, Mishei?

You seem not to be reading the story that started this thread, Mishei.

Further, Mandos's point seems reasonable to me: what else but fear of demographics would prompt Israeli soldiers and bureaucrats to treat a two-month-old child so sadistically?


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DrConway
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posted 02 October 2003 07:38 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
The area composed of Israel and the PA is presently a haven for real terrorists. I sympathize with this family and wish with all my heart that young Hisham could live in a place where such restrictions never had to apply.

The title of this thread however is unecessarily provocative and should be changed. Otherwise it is based on a lie.


*cough Apartheid cough*

Banana republics are also known for ham-fisted attempts to restrict mobility rights of suspected political insurgents, rebels or even just ordinary people.

It is not without a sense of irony that I note that Sharon and Pinochet share a common bond - they were both soldiers before they went into politics.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 October 2003 08:55 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

*cough Apartheid cough*

Banana republics are also known for ham-fisted attempts to restrict mobility rights of suspected political insurgents, rebels or even just ordinary people.

It is not without a sense of irony that I note that Sharon and Pinochet share a common bond - they were both soldiers before they went into politics.


This banana fetish has now totally consumed you. I dont knbow if you can be medicated but I would seriously look into it. If you begin to turn yellow and mushy call for help.

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Mandos
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posted 03 October 2003 10:18 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jokes aside, Mishei, you fail to answer the question. I'm quite sure you've read the term "demographic bomb" being used repeatedly in Israeli media? What does that mean? Why "bomb"? Isn't it obvious what that word is associated with?

I'll answer for you: Palestinian population growth is seen by many sectors in Israel as an existential threat. Present (dismal) Zionist ideology as represented by you clearly sees existential threats to Israel as (almost direct) existential threats to Jews in themselves. It's not far from here to associate this with terrorism, a word that is sufficiently abused by the Israeli government that it now seems to mean even resistance against Israeli military checkpoints (ie, legitimate targets).

Once this association has been easily established, it is now possible to imply that the birth of a Palestinian child is part of an existential threat towards Israel. And thus, it is not at all a stretch to see that Israeli officials, tacitly or otherwise, see Hisham as a terrorist threat. Doubly so, since he is an American as well and has the potential to become something like Edward Said.

Given this background, bleating about Hamas is insignificant propaganda, designed to provoke outrage rather than a reasoned moral response. There would be no Hamas if the very memory of a Palestinian claim to the land between the sea and the river were not an existential threat to Israel, and therefore a terrorist memory.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 October 2003 08:49 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
This banana fetish has now totally consumed you. I dont knbow if you can be medicated but I would seriously look into it. If you begin to turn yellow and mushy call for help.

When you're ready to actually respond to a point I make, gimme a call.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 October 2003 11:09 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

When you're ready to actually respond to a point I make, gimme a call.


When you are cured from your banana fetish let me know.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 October 2003 11:45 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You seem to be less bothered when the IDF gets compared to European armies than South American ones. Are you looking within yourself for the prejudice?
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skdadl
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posted 04 October 2003 10:11 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, Mandos: I know the feeling.

You are chopped liver.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 October 2003 10:59 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
You seem to be less bothered when the IDF gets compared to European armies than South American ones. Are you looking within yourself for the prejudice?

No Im just worried about your pre-occupation with bananas.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 October 2003 01:43 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, Mish, "banana" is the adjective that modifies "republic," which would therefore indicate that the latter is the critical area of Doc's concern.

And we all know how republics are supposed to be democracies, right?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 October 2003 02:04 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Actually, Mish, "banana" is the adjective that modifies "republic," which would therefore indicate that the latter is the critical area of Doc's concern.

And we all know how republics are supposed to be democracies, right?



Oh God its spreading...banana disease of the mind..call for help!!

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lagatta
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posted 04 October 2003 02:25 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please, Doc and Mishei ... the "banana republic" vs. "banana fetish" thing has really got this thread off topic. Too bad.

Actually, banana republics were small, underdeveloped countries in Central America for the most part controlled by United Fruit and similar foreign monopolies. Despite the US government and copper consortiums' control in Chile and role in engineering the coup, I woudn't refer to the countries of the Southern Cone as banana republics as the indices of social and cultural development were far too high. And under Pinochet there was no democracy for anyone. A very different situation from Israel - in many ways a flourishing democracy, but denying the same rights to the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. I think one must be careful with analogies.

Many countries that are "democratic" at home have imposed brutal military occupations abroad. Such occupations cannot help but impinge on full democracy in the occupying country as well. That was the meaning of Marx's (or was it Engels'?) statement on Ireland: a country that occupies another cannot itself be free.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 October 2003 02:39 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Quite right lagatta.

There ya go again, Mish. I was talking about republics and democracies, and you fixate on yellow fruit.

So how about that demographic bomb?

[ 04 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 October 2003 02:42 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, so you agree with lagatta that continuing the "banana fetish"/"banana republic" sparring is getting old in your first sentence, and then in your next sentence you continue it. I don't get it.

In any case, I think lagatta's right. I'm not going to take sides on this one because it's been going on long enough that it's getting silly on both sides. Can't we move on?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 October 2003 08:37 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Okay, so you agree with lagatta that continuing the "banana fetish"/"banana republic" sparring is getting old in your first sentence, and then in your next sentence you continue it. I don't get it.

Naw, my "quite right" was meant for lagatta's description of the "republic," which is what Doctor C refers to.

This is just to point out that it is typical Mishification of an discussion to avoid the real point of an argument and instead to focus on an insignificant detail to try to throw the thread off track.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 04 October 2003 10:37 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

This is just to point out that it is typical Mishification .


Hey call the Funk and Wagnalls people we are coining a new word here.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 October 2003 11:37 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So close, but yet another lost humour opportunity.

Sock it to me Sock it to me Sock it to me Sock it to me Sock it to me...


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 October 2003 11:44 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Naw, my "quite right" was meant for lagatta's description of the "republic," which is what Doctor C refers to.

Oh, whoops. My mistake.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 06 October 2003 02:13 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
No actually it is the Hamas et al terrorists who are the cause...It is the murderous campaign carried out by Palestinian extremists where they tie bombs to their bodies and murder innocent Israeli men women and children...it is the perverted leadership in the guise of Yasser Arafat "statesman"...theses are the real reasons but you are afraid to face the truth.

Wow, so the Occupation which began in 1967 was caused by suicide bombings (which are in protest of said Occupation) which began almost 30 years later...

Astounding! Uncanny, even.

It's amazing what can be done to time and space when it's jammed haphazardly through the reality filter of our local Zionist apologist.

[ 06 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Courage
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posted 06 October 2003 02:21 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Please, Doc and Mishei ... the "banana republic" vs. "banana fetish" thing has really got this thread off topic. Too bad.

Actually, banana republics were small, underdeveloped countries in Central America for the most part controlled by United Fruit and similar foreign monopolies. Despite the US government and copper consortiums' control in Chile and role in engineering the coup, I woudn't refer to the countries of the Southern Cone as banana republics as the indices of social and cultural development were far too high. And under Pinochet there was no democracy for anyone. A very different situation from Israel - in many ways a flourishing democracy, but denying the same rights to the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. I think one must be careful with analogies.

Many countries that are "democratic" at home have imposed brutal military occupations abroad. Such occupations cannot help but impinge on full democracy in the occupying country as well. That was the meaning of Marx's (or was it Engels'?) statement on Ireland: a country that occupies another cannot itself be free.


Actually, we should give credit where credit is due: Marx and Engels borrowed this concept from Marx's one-time mentor, Hegel. The work where this notion derives from is, appropriately, titled The Master-Slave Dialectic.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 06 October 2003 05:08 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Right you are, Courage, but I forgot whether it was Marx or Engels who applied the Hegelian notion to Britain and Ireland...
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 06 October 2003 11:10 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I call it the Mishei Medal of Valour when Mishei encourages irrelevant thread drift after a gauntlet has been thrown down (he complains about thread drift elsewhere, but he encourages it here).

So in acknowledgement of this honour, I take the logic one step further: Mishei clearly sees existential threats to Israel (posed by Sartre? -- couldn't resist) as anti-Semitic threats, since they are threats to the future of the Jewish people (or are they, Mishei?). Since by the logic Mishei has not challenged, Hisham's birth is part of a terrorist threat to Israel's existence (hence the treatment of him and his parents, once again by the above logic), Hisham's birth is also an anti-Semitic act.

His mother should be ashamed of herself. Shouldn't she, Mishei? Or will you retract your ideological commitment?

[ 06 October 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 October 2003 11:50 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I call it the Mishei Medal of Valour when Mishei encourages irrelevant thread drift after a gauntlet has been thrown down

I call it "Mishtification."


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 06 October 2003 09:05 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How a person can be so offended by this thread title, yet can accept this kind of treatment of a 2 month old baby as reasonable, is beyond my ability to comprehend.

How possibly could the refusal to allow a 2 moth old baby to travel because it has a Palestinian father be based on less of a "lie" than the thread title?????


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 06 October 2003 09:26 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
How a person can be so offended by this thread title, yet can accept this kind of treatment of a 2 month old baby as reasonable, is beyond my ability to comprehend.

How possibly could the refusal to allow a 2 moth old baby to travel because it has a Palestinian father be based on less of a "lie" than the thread title?????


With the Magic Time/Space/Common Sense Twister now available from the Israeli MiniTru or through your local Israeli apologist, such unfathomable turns of phrase and distortions of logic are done with the flick of the wrists...

Somehow I don't think this is what was meant by Fuzzy Logic, but it deserves the name all the same...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 06 October 2003 10:25 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is a big debate and a lot of finger pointing over the "occupation"...

But I think everyone here agrees that this is less about politics than it is beaurocratic stupidity.

I think that, oddly enough, this makes a good case for "profiling" sort of like the US has done in their anti-terrorism tactics. While it is wrong to make assumptions based on race alone, there are some logical assumptions that should be made. In the US, a black woman with three small children clinging to her dress screaming "MOMMA! MOMMA! WHEN IS DADDY GONNA GET HERE?" is less likely to be interrogated as a suspected Al-Qaeda member than a 23 year old man from Saudia Arabia with suspected (but not confirmed) ties to terrorist organizations and is travelling alone. Now sure you can argue in the interests of equality that all of these people should be checked with the same level of scrutiny, but common sense dictates that the family is less of a security risk.

This story is a case where the Israeli government should apply some common sense and assume that the child is not a security risk.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 October 2003 11:13 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
But I think everyone here agrees that this is less about politics than it is beaurocratic stupidity.

No, I think it's about politics and good old-fashioned racism.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 06 October 2003 11:59 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
[QB]There is a big debate and a lot of finger pointing over the "occupation"...

But I think everyone here agrees that this is less about politics than it is beaurocratic stupidity.


Stupid bureaucratic racism is racism is racism is racism...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 07 October 2003 12:00 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

No, I think it's about politics and good old-fashioned racism.


If this were a person capable of doing anything involving a terrorist act, you may be right. But even if one ran on the racist assumption that "all Palestinians are terrorist scumbags", WHAT THE HELL CAN A BABY DO ANYWAYS?!?


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 07 October 2003 07:51 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's why it's racism, not security.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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