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Author Topic: Israel jails Jewish extremist
Mishei
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posted 22 September 2003 04:59 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
IIf only there was a viable entity within the PA that could jail their Palestinian terrorist leaders


Ha'aretz


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 22 September 2003 05:36 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
IIf only there was a viable entity within the PA that could jail their Palestinian terrorist leaders


Ha'aretz


There was, but Barak and Sharon had a field day attacking police stations, destroying the security infrastructure and so on because the Palestinian boys wouldn't toady-up the way they wanted them to...

Moreover your approach involves a massive delusion. The underlying premiss is that Palestinian and Israeli societies are just two normal societies living side-by-side with responsibilities to themselves and others. Never mind that one of those societies (Israel) has been systematically attacking the first society for decades and has made every effort to destroy it utterly so that a true Palestinian society which would be an equal neighbour to Israel can never emerge. Anyone who opposes this attack - by either political or violent means - is called a terrorist and targetted for 'removal' or 'liquidation'.

Mishei, you disingeniously ask for normalcy in Palestinian society, when it is the extreme policies of Israel that have very much to do with the lack thereof.

[ 22 September 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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evenflow
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posted 22 September 2003 05:41 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
IIf only there was a viable entity within the PA that could jail their Palestinian terrorist leaders

I think there was a viable entity like that within the PA, but its members and their children have long ago been murdered, displaced or jailed during the Israeli occupation.

A very rare but welcome gesture on the part of Israel to actually tell this Jewish extremist what he was actually arrested for. I wonder if they'll extend that courtesy to the many imprisoned Palestinians who still haven't received it yet?


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 22 September 2003 05:44 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by evenflow:

I think there was a viable entity like that within the PA, but its members and their children have long ago been murdered, displaced or jailed during the Israeli occupation.

A very rare but welcome gesture on the part of Israel to actually tell this Jewish extremist what he was actually arrested for. I wonder if they'll extend that courtesy to the many imprisoned Palestinians who still haven't received it yet?


Heck, what about the dozens who have been 'extrajudically killed' - i.e. murdered without so much as a how-d'ya-do? Oh, and those bystanders who were killed when we were murdering the first group? Well, we are very sorry for this unfortunate accident and we will begin an investigation proceding first with a foray up our own arses....


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Mishei
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posted 22 September 2003 05:50 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh hell what could I have been thinking that people here would actually praise Israel for taking action as it should. Silly me.

And as for the lack of PA infrastructure, I agree it is not in the same situation as Israel heck I would settle for a complete condemnation by Arafat of the Al Aksa brigade or hamas. But I suppose Israel has cut out Arafat's tongue.


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pogge
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posted 22 September 2003 05:58 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Oh hell what could I have been thinking that people here would actually praise Israel for taking action as it should. Silly me.

It was your own comment that deflected that possibility and made the thread about Palestinians.


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skdadl
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posted 22 September 2003 05:59 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Could someone clarify the confusions of the opening link for me?

Am I correct in thinking that Federman is only under house arrest, "contrary to police recommendations"? The article earlier says that he was transferred directly to a "detention cell," but then later he is just under house arrest.

skdadl is confused.


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Courage
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posted 22 September 2003 06:06 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Oh hell what could I have been thinking that people here would actually praise Israel for taking action as it should. Silly me.

And as for the lack of PA infrastructure, I agree it is not in the same situation as Israel heck I would settle for a complete condemnation by Arafat of the Al Aksa brigade or hamas. But I suppose Israel has cut out Arafat's tongue.


Actually, he often 'condemns' terrorist acts. Of course, you would have him break out of the house arrest that IDF troops have him under and fly about with a cape on and stop each and every Hamas bomber himself...

You want it both ways - Arafat powerless, but responsible...

Feh...


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Courage
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posted 22 September 2003 06:12 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Oh hell what could I have been thinking that people here would actually praise Israel for taking action as it should. Silly me.

Why should we care about a cosmetic epiphenomenal act like this one. While you can prattle on about how one single small fringe 'extremist' has been put in jail, you take your eyes of the problem - that there is a whole mass of 'extremists' lead by Sharon (variously known as The Butcher, and The Bulldozer) who are acting 'extremely' as it is. This is more about state control than anything: if this guy plans to blow up Palestinians, he needs to be roped in. Not only would unexpected attacks muss-up the PR game Israel has going to apologise for state violence against the Palestinians, but it would send the message that the state was not in control. As long as it is IDF troops doing the blowing-up and killing, everything is fine - but if you are a 'retail' blower-upper and killer, well, to jail with you...

Double feh and a little pffft for good measure...


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Mishei
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posted 25 September 2003 12:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Why should we care about a cosmetic epiphenomenal act like this one. While you can prattle on about how one single small fringe 'extremist' has been put in jail, you take your eyes of the problem - that there is a whole mass of 'extremists' lead by Sharon (variously known as The Butcher, and The Bulldozer) who are acting 'extremely' as it is. This is more about state control than anything: if this guy plans to blow up Palestinians, he needs to be roped in. Not only would unexpected attacks muss-up the PR game Israel has going to apologise for state violence against the Palestinians, but it would send the message that the state was not in control. As long as it is IDF troops doing the blowing-up and killing, everything is fine - but if you are a 'retail' blower-upper and killer, well, to jail with you...

Double feh and a little pffft for good measure...


Your facial and tongue manifestations aside, Israel you see remains a state that shows fidelity to law. That it is in a state of war with terrorists at times sadly allows for excesses and terrible tragedies. Contrary to your attempt to paint Israel as a country that targets innocent Palestinians, I believe that it is targetting murderous terrorists. It is Hamas that targets Israeli civilians (which BTW include not just Jews but Muslims and Christians). I have always wondered why that brave soul, Sheik Yaseen who loves to exhort his minions to become homicide bombers, why he has never wanted to to engage in such activity. After all he too could be a martyr for the cause, no?

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evenflow
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posted 25 September 2003 12:40 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
According to that logic, a possible answer would be for the US to arm the Palestinians to the extent that it has armed Israel. This way, they could more accurately "target" whom they deem to be "terrorists" (bystanders be damned) like the IDF does. No more suicide bombers, only collateral damage and what Sharon refers to as "unfortunate but necessary losses in the fight against terrorism."


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Blind_Patriot
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posted 25 September 2003 01:13 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First of all, putting him under house arrest is basically saying. "You idiot, why aren't you waering an IDF uniform?" "Want one?". I'd also like to say that this is bullshit. It is a gesture to the International community to get them off of the Israeli Terror Networks back. It's very transparent.
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Courage
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posted 25 September 2003 04:21 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
[QB]Your facial and tongue manifestations aside, Israel you see remains a state that shows fidelity to law.

It's just that so many of their laws are unjust. Take the illegal military occupation of the West Bank, for instance. The discriminatory laws against Palestinians, for instance.

quote:
That it is in a state of war with terrorists at times sadly allows for excesses and terrible tragedies.

Right, 'a state of war'. And, of course, this 'state of war' could in no way have been precipitated by a decades-long Israeli policy of trying to destroy any vestiges of Palestinian political agency, and exploit them as a cheap labour source. It couldn't have anything to do with the blind callousness toward Palestinians in Israeli society evinced by the apparent ease with which Cabinet Ministers discuss ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in open and strident tones.

Also, I suppose that 15 yr. old boy killed today when IDF tanks, troops and aircraft attacked a refugee camp with no apparent military target was an 'excess' and a 'terrible tragedy'? Or the two Palestinians wounded yesterday during a protest against the bulldozing of homes -- bulldozing, of course, just being 'an excess' -- that was just 'a tragedy'. The problem is that attacking groups of Palestinian civilians (who put up a fight, justly) is not 'an excess' or 'a tragedy', it's just business as usual for the IDF. For Palestinians, it's a daily routine - checkpoints, curfews, violent shoot-em-up raids, torture...

'Excesses', indeed.

As of today, an AFP toll puts the body counts in the last two years at about 2,600 Palestinians, and about 800 Israelis. I suppose all 2,600 Palestinians were 'murderous terrorists'? It would seem, by the numbers, that Israeli 'excesses' and 'tragedies' are far more deadly than Palestinian 'murderous terrorism'. The 'cure' (the chemotherapy as one perhaps 'excessive' Israeli Chief of Staff so tragically put it) seems to be worse than the cancer...

'Tragedy', indeed.

[ 25 September 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 September 2003 07:33 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That it is in a state of war with terrorists...

The rest of the world calls them "Palestinians."

Welcome to Likud, Mish. You sound just like Bibi now.


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 25 September 2003 07:37 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Actually, he often 'condemns' terrorist acts. Of course, you would have him break out of the house arrest that IDF troops have him under and fly about with a cape on and stop each and every Hamas bomber himself...

You want it both ways - Arafat powerless, but responsible...

Feh...


He must have some power, otherwise the Americans wouldn't have acted to halt Sharon's attempt to throw the corrupt bastard out on his behind.


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 25 September 2003 07:44 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
First of all, putting him under house arrest is basically saying. "You idiot, why aren't you waering an IDF uniform?" "Want one?". I'd also like to say that this is bullshit. It is a gesture to the International community to get them off of the Israeli Terror Networks back. It's very transparent.


Does the Isreali government actually funnel money to groups like Kahane Chai? I'm just curious. Please don't call me anti semitic!


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 September 2003 07:46 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He [Arafat] must have some power, otherwise the Americans wouldn't have acted to halt Sharon's attempt to throw the corrupt bastard out on his behind.

You've heard of the term, "public relations"?


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DrConway
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posted 25 September 2003 08:37 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Your facial and tongue manifestations aside, Israel you see remains a state that shows fidelity to law. That it is in a state of war with terrorists at times sadly allows for excesses and terrible tragedies.

Even a country at war is morally, if not legally, mandated to follow the Geneva Convention which forbids the deliberate targetting of civilians and/or a lack of appropriate attempts to limit civilian deaths.

And, oh, Mishei, isn't Israel technically not in a state of war with the PA? The Israeli military still effectively controls all of the Occupied Territories, so in effect, although probably not from a nigletizingly legalistic-jurisprudence point of view, Israel would have to be in a state of war with itself.

Ah, so Israel is not at war!

But if Israel is not at war, then why do you say it is? Curious, this continued use of the state-of-war duality. Unfortunately, unlike the wave-particle duality, this duality has some very bad implications for Palestinian-Arabs.

"Fidelity to law"? Just when I think you cease to astound me, you strike me dumb, unable to even begin roaring in laughter, at your bald-faced assertions which are not in accordance with reality by any means.

If a person in a country is charged with a crime and that person is not a citizen, the usual practice of international law recognition is that a person so charged and processed is entitled to be put through the same legal processes as a citizen is.

This means that, for example, for non-Canadians, they can reasonably expect to be permitted access to a lawyer, plus a trial and the right to their own defence.

But all of a sudden, Palestinian-Arabs arrested under Israeli law appear to be somehow exempted from this usual practice.

Furthermore, are there not documented cases of extrajudicial executions? This does not seem to me to be any attempt to even pay lip-service to the notion of due process.

Then again, Israel would be taking its lessons from the USA, whose police forces routinely deny due process in drug cases.


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 25 September 2003 08:43 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

You've heard of the term, "public relations"?


Yes, I have, but I don't understand how keeping an autocratic gangster, who is privately despised by every other leader in the Middle East, is good public relations. Just as a side note, I heard an American diplomat say that most Palestinians don't like Arafat and would be happy to see him go. He felt that the Israelis would actually be doing the Palestinians a favour by getting rid of the man, but, and this is the most important point, they would have to do something for the Palestinians after acting in their own self interest. Sharon won't be doing the Palestinian people any favours anytime soon. What would a Palestinian authority run by Sheik Ahmed Yassin look like?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 September 2003 08:52 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't understand how keeping an autocratic gangster, who is privately despised by every other leader in the Middle East, is good public relations. Just as a side note, I heard an American diplomat say that most Palestinians don't like Arafat and would be happy to see him go.

Wow, this could be a sample excerpt for a class in freshman Rhetoric.

"Autocratic gangster" = ad hominem smear job.

"privately despised by every other leader in the Middle East" - and you're privy to the private thoughts of Middle Eastern leaders?

"I heard an American diplomat say that most Palestinians don't like Arafat" - Third hand hearsay.

"What would a Palestinian authority run by Sheik Ahmed Yassin look like?" - This is a genuine option?

Hamas was created by Israel as a counter to the Palestinian nationalist Fatah movemement.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 25 September 2003 09:15 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes, I have, but I don't understand how keeping an autocratic gangster, who is privately despised by every other leader in the Middle East, is good public relations.

I thought al-Qa'bong meant that it was a public relations move on the part of the US.

As for Arafat himself, like it or not I believe he's the duly elected representative of the Palestinian people. Imagine the outcry if the PA announced it was considering sending Ariel Sharon into exile.

If the Palestinians want to remove Arafat, that's all well and good. That of course assumes that they have the necessary infrastructure to conduct elections. It's a little bit difficult to do when you can't even assume that come election day the polling stations won't have been introduced to the business end of a bulldozer.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 25 September 2003 09:16 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

The rest of the world calls them "Palestinians."

Welcome to Likud, Mish. You sound just like Bibi now.


No only here are murderers called Palestinians. The rest of the world refers to murderers by who they are, Hamas, Hizbollah, Al Aksa terrorists.

Your attempt to paint all Palestinians as terrorists is ugly and disgusting.


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SamL
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posted 25 September 2003 09:40 PM      Profile for SamL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Say no more... please...


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Courage
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posted 25 September 2003 09:58 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

He must have some power, otherwise the Americans wouldn't have acted to halt Sharon's attempt to throw the corrupt bastard out on his behind.



Yes - his power is that he is still largely regarded as the 'grandfather' of the Palestinian national movement by Palestinians themselves.


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Ice Foot
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posted 25 September 2003 10:25 PM      Profile for Ice Foot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He must have some power, otherwise the Americans wouldn't have acted to halt Sharon's attempt to throw the corrupt bastard out on his behind.

Actually, when the United Nations sought to pass a resolution to protect Arafat from being "removed", it was the US who provided the lone veto against it.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 September 2003 11:02 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No only here are murderers called Palestinians. The rest of the world refers to murderers by who they are, Hamas, Hizbollah, Al Aksa terrorists.

Your attempt to paint all Palestinians as terrorists is ugly and disgusting.


Nice try Mish.

Edited:

I don't know why I said "nice" there. Mish's comment was as asinine as it was offensive, but...why am I not surprised he made it?

[ 25 September 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 26 September 2003 12:14 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

"Autocratic gangster" = ad hominem smear job.


In your opinion, is Arafat a good man?

I'm reading "Pity the Nation" right now. I know I should probably get more information before I debate with you, but from what I've seen so far, old yasser is a pretty nasty customer. I don't think he's as scary as the Isrealis make him out to be. He's no Saad Haddad.


quote:
Wow, this could be a sample excerpt for a class in freshman Rhetoric.

Thank you very much.
I relize I've embarrased myself. It just sounded so cool when I was writing it. I am young and foolish. Please forgive me.


"What would a Palestinian authority run by Sheik Ahmed Yassin look like?" - This is a genuine option?

This is purely theoretical. Please answer the question. They gave Bashir Gemayel the ability to control Lebanon didn't they? Why couldn't they give Yassin control of the West Bank and Gaza?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 26 September 2003 12:17 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
why am I not surprised...

I just knew somebody was going to say that.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 September 2003 09:35 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Nice try Mish.

Edited:

I don't know why I said "nice" there. Mish's comment was as asinine as it was offensive, but...why am I not surprised he made it?

[ 25 September 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]



I find it interesting that you label my comment asinine to my asserion that Israel was in a war with terrorists.

It was you who claimed that the terrorists were called "Palestinians" no? You seem to believe that all Palestinians are terrorists.

Please enlighten us here.

For the record here is the post and response.

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That it is in a state of war with terrorists...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The rest of the world calls them "Palestinians."



From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 26 September 2003 11:37 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just remembered that banana republics often justify their lack of regard for human rights by blaming the victim as well.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 26 September 2003 11:58 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel is at war with the Palestinians. Israel justifies its actions, in the same manner as George Bush, by saying they are fighting "terrorism." Ask yourself, is Israel occupying "terrorist" land?

Do you not remember Netanyahu saying that he would never allow a "terrorist state" ("Palestine" for those of us who aren't Likud supporters) to exist next to Israel?

And "Bravo" to the IDF pilots who refuse to participate in, as they have called them, the "immoral attacks" on the West Bank and Gaza.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 September 2003 01:18 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
I just remembered that banana republics often justify their lack of regard for human rights by blaming the victim as well.
Damn and here I thought you had sought help for your banana fetish.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 September 2003 01:22 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Israel is at war with the Palestinians. Israel justifies its actions, in the same manner as George Bush, by saying they are fighting "terrorism." Ask yourself, is Israel occupying "terrorist" land?

Do you not remember Netanyahu saying that he would never allow a "terrorist state" ("Palestine" for those of us who aren't Likud supporters) to exist next to Israel?

And "Bravo" to the IDF pilots who refuse to participate in, as they have called them, the "immoral attacks" on the West Bank and Gaza.



Yes I remeber and I for one interpreted that to mean any state run by terrorists. Either way Bibi is not the Prime Minister and the present policy is to support a two-state solution.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 26 September 2003 11:11 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Yes I remeber and I for one interpreted that to mean any state run by terrorists. Either way Bibi is not the Prime Minister and the present policy is to support a two-state solution.

No it isn't - the present policy is to continue armed incursions into Palestinian areas, murdering suspected political organisers in Palestinian communities, to build the wall wherever it emasculates Palestinian society the most, and to try and sideline any representative of the Palestinians who does not meet with Israeli approval - i.e. is not a toady or an extremist. Witness the handling of the negotiations with Abbas and now the threat to expel Arafat.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 September 2003 12:46 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei: Yes I remeber and I for one interpreted that to mean any state run by terrorists. Either way Bibi is not the Prime Minister and the present policy is to support a two-state solution.

Which brings us back to how you sound just like Bibi....


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 27 September 2003 04:21 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"What would a Palestinian authority run by Sheik Ahmed Yassin look like?" - This is a genuine option?

Yes, and something that Sharon's policies seem *GASP* designed to create. Why else dither with Abbas until he was ineffectual? Why else threaten to expel Arafat unless to ensure guys like Yassin gain more and more sway? Nothing could be better for Sharon. He needs excuses to dress up his ever-more-extreme solutions. It doesn't take a genius to see that Israel has either ignored or deliberately sidelined any moderate secular nationalist voices in Palestinian politics.


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Mishei
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posted 30 September 2003 10:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just read this in the JTA

quote:
Jewish extremists sentenced

Three Israeli Jewish extremists were sentenced to between 12 and 15 years in jail. The three men sentenced Tuesday were found guilty of attempting to set off a bomb at an Arab girls school in eastern Jerusalem in April 2002. Shlomo Zeliger Dvir and Ofer Gamliel each received a 15-year prison sentence, while Yarden Morag received 12 years.

Seems as though Israeli law works exactly the way it should in any democracy.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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Babbler # 3830

posted 01 October 2003 01:34 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Seems as though Israeli law works exactly the way it should in any democracy.
Sorry little one, did you say Democracy? Israel is the most ficticious democracy we all know. I actually feel sorry for these individuals, because they are a diversion of what's crimes the Israeli oppresive regime is committing. Shall we start to look at the Human Rights comissions list, or Anmesty Internationals? Perhaps in a Democracy, when Pilots feel that they are commanded to commit immoral acts, they won't be persecuted either. If Israel is a true democracy then half of the IDF would be in jail.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 October 2003 01:57 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
Sorry little one, did you say Democracy? Israel is the most ficticious democracy we all know. I actually feel sorry for these individuals, because they are a diversion of what's crimes the Israeli oppresive regime is committing. Shall we start to look at the Human Rights comissions list, or Anmesty Internationals? Perhaps in a Democracy, when Pilots feel that they are commanded to commit immoral acts, they won't be persecuted either. If Israel is a true democracy then half of the IDF would be in jail.
Nonsense, Isrtael is fighting agaist the evil of terrorism quite different and you know it!!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gaia_Child
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Babbler # 3015

posted 01 October 2003 02:36 PM      Profile for Gaia_Child     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When I saw the headline "Israel jails Jewish extremist" I panicked, and thought ....

Did they lock up Mishei ?!

Fortunately once I got to the thread, I found out it was someone else in jail. Phew! I mean, where would the Middle East Board be without Mishei?

[ 01 October 2003: Message edited by: Gaia_Child ]


From: Western Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 01 October 2003 03:39 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If Israel is a true democracy then half of the IDF would be in jail.

true enough. Along with half of the American army.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 01 October 2003 04:15 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
From the Ottawa Citizen
quote:

Israel is to blame for the Palestinians' troubles and no one has any business saying otherwise; if they do, they are part of a Zionist plot.

Well, Irshad Manji is an unlikely co-conspirator. An avowed Muslim, her book, The Trouble with Islam, is "a wake-up call for honesty and change." Written as an open letter to both Muslims and non-Muslims, Manji handily bests the critics who argue Jews are responsible for the Palestinians', and Islam's, problems.

Although highly critical of Jewish towns in the West Bank and Gaza, Manji acknowledges Israel has a legitimate territorial claim. She points out there were Jewish settlers in the West Bank even before the Zionists showed up: "To squawk that Jews are alien usurpers of Palestine is as ignorant as to rant that Arabs have no place in Israel."

The reason Israel exists, and Palestine does not, is the Palestinians always turn down proposals for independence: In 1937, they were offered full autonomy over the entire region phased in over 10 years, but that wasn't fast enough. They rejected the 1947 proposal to partition the territory, 55 per cent for Israel and 45 per cent for Palestine, with a shared Jerusalem. When the Arab states waged war against Israel in 1948, the Palestinians lost even more ground. Between 1949 and 1967, the Arab states occupying parts of Palestine "discouraged-- even at times prevented -- any active Palestinian participation in the political process," notes Manji, quoting scholar Bernard Lewis. In 1967, Israel beat back Egypt and won even more ground. In 2000, Arafat turned his back on a deal once again.

If the Palestinians are caught in political no-man's land, they and their Arab neighbours bear much of the blame.

Indeed, this is whom Manji reserves her harshest criticism for.

Israel is at least a democracy that values equality, free speech and multiculturalism -- Arab Muslim parties even hold seats in the Israeli Parliament. Israel has accepted tens of thousands of Palestinians under family reunification; Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq refuse to grant Palestinians citizenship.

Most Muslim and Arab nations -- including Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Nigeria, the list goes on -- have atrocious human rights records, suppress women and religious minorities, and have a history of massacring political foes. "A majority of the world's refugees spill out from Islamic countries," Manji writes. "If any of this is embarrassing to admit, my fellow Muslims, get over it."

Manji says this is the where the real problem with Islam lies -- with the Islamic extremists who have hijacked the religion and stood in the way of the introspection needed to bring Islam and the Koran into modern times.

There is a little-known Islamic tradition of independent reasoning, called "ijtihad," which Manji says was abandoned 1,000 years ago, to protect the Islamic empire from internal division. Debate was frozen within the Muslim faith and independent thinking "became the privilege of the mufti, the lawyer-priest" to issue legal opinions or fatwas, which continues to this day.

Manji proposes to launch Operation Ijtihad, so rank-and-file Muslims can start thinking for themselves again.

------------------------

Good Luck Manji.

[ 01 October 2003: Message edited by: EarthShadow ]


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 01 October 2003 06:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gaia_Child:
When I saw the headline "Israel jails Jewish extremist" I panicked, and thought ....

Did they lock up Mishei ?!

Fortunately once I got to the thread, I found out it was someone else in jail. Phew! I mean, where would the Middle East Board be without Mishei?

[ 01 October 2003: Message edited by: Gaia_Child ]



You know this is just the problem...when people on this Board think that I am extreme. You really have to get out more.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 October 2003 11:15 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Righto...Mish....always on the level.....

quote:
Seems as though Israeli law works exactly the way it should in any democracy.

I dunno, since when are gaol sentences peculiar to democracies?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 01 October 2003 11:17 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Nonsense, Isrtael is fighting agaist the evil of terrorism quite different and you know it!!

You know, Mishei, sometimes you so closely resemble a cardboard cutout with a tape recorder running I can't add anything.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 01 October 2003 11:21 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

You know this is just the problem...when people on this Board think that I am extreme. You really have to get out more.

Well, as far as I am concerned, anyone who spends their days defending the oppression of an entire people based on their ethnicity (rememeber the Occupation, Mishei? That preceded the 'terrorism') can be classified as holding an morally bereft and utterly contemptible position. That, through various phenomena which baffle and confuse -- largely a pile of dogshit arguments that turn in endless circles, and the trademark hand-waving of apologists like yourself -- such a position can be called 'mainstream' does not detract from the fact that it is ethically bereft, intellectually dishonest, and to anyone with a modicum of common sense, flat-out bullshit...

[ 01 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 October 2003 11:22 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just as people would have a problem with it if they were called "Palestinian extremists" by the pro-Israel posters, I would appreciate it if people didn't call Mishei a "Jewish extremist" even in jest. I know these threads get heated, but usually "extremist" in this context is meant as someone who is violent, and I think implying that about each other goes beyond the bounds of debate here.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 01 October 2003 11:31 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Just as people would have a problem with it if they were called "Palestinian extremists" by the pro-Israel posters, I would appreciate it if people didn't call Mishei a "Jewish extremist" even in jest. I know these threads get heated, but usually "extremist" in this context is meant as someone who is violent, and I think implying that about each other goes beyond the bounds of debate here.

Would that the shoe were on the other foot, Michelle.

The pro-Israel poster in question regularly insinuates that other posters here are supportive of violence, murder, terrorism, antisemitism, and more, just for starters.

But that's not really important. More importantly, in this particular case, the poster in question openly defends acts of violence (Israel's fight against terrorism, as he calls it.) as a part of his argumentative position. If he is on record supporting certain forms of violence, why are others remiss to recuse him on the same grounds?

The question begged is, "are Israel's acts of violence, which Mishei openly supports, justifiable?" In short, is Mishei's position in support of this violence tenable and/or morally acceptable?

Isn't this the entire issue being raised - that Palestinian violence is 'extreme' while IDF violence and occupation is an accepted part of daily life - fully normalised, and considered 'mainstream'?

That's just the position many here are trying to overturn.

[ 01 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 01 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 October 2003 11:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sigh. There's a difference between taking sides during a debate and being violent. I haven't noticed Mishei calling other babblers terrorists or Palestinian extremists. We can get into semantics all you like, Courage, but the fact is, "Jewish extremist" is not an appropriate thing to call people who are merely engaging in debate, even in jest.

Do you really want to go on and on debating this? Because I'm really not up for a big debate on semantics right now, thanks. You can discuss it amongst yourselves, I guess.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 01 October 2003 11:37 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Sigh. There's a difference between taking sides during a debate and being violent. I haven't noticed Mishei calling other babblers terrorists or Palestinian extremists. We can get into semantics all you like, Courage, but the fact is, "Jewish extremist" is not an appropriate thing to call people who are merely engaging in debate, even in jest.

Do you really want to go on and on debating this? Because I'm really not up for a big debate on semantics right now, thanks. You can discuss it amongst yourselves, I guess.


Just semantics? It's all in the semantics, Michelle.

Mishei is on record supporting violence and against certain people as well as a military occupation. Is advocating violence and military occupation to be considered 'normal'?

He would like to keep it that way.

[ 01 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 01 October 2003 11:39 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Sigh. There's a difference between taking sides during a debate and being violent.

Is there? That's an interesting question, isn't it? So I can support terrorism all I want without fear of being recused for my position? Just as long as I don't personally kill anyone, I can't be considered an 'extremist'...

The line is not so neatly drawn as you have done.

[ 01 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 October 2003 11:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fine, whatever. Pretend I said nothing. Call each other all the names you want.

Edited to remove remark made in exasperation.

[ 01 October 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 01 October 2003 11:49 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Fine, whatever. Pretend I said nothing. Call each other all the names you want.

Edited to remove remark made in exasperation.

[ 01 October 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


Fair enough. I'm just trying to keep the space open to question what is an 'acceptable, mainstream' support of violence, and how this is socially constructed/mediated. The normalisation of Israeli violence and the concomitant 'extremisation' of Palestinian violence is part and parcel of the ideological support for Israeli violence. I don't actually disagree with your point entirely, just making sure that the room is there...

[ 01 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 01 October 2003 11:50 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That, and I'm a little bored, and a little snippy tonight...
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 October 2003 11:55 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, that's not what this is about, Courage, and you should know it. What this is about is trying to keep this forum from descending into nasty name-calling fights. You know damned well that I'm not trying to make some philosophic point that only people who actually physically carry out violence are "extremists".

Yes there are people who are extreme in their viewpoints. But this is a bulletin board. This is not the Middle East itself, this is babble. And on BABBLE, we don't call each other terrorists, or Jewish extremists, or Palestinian extremists. And GOD, wouldn't it be nice if I could just try to keep minimal order without a big song and dance every time I try to nip a flame war in the bud. It's not like I step in that often. If you want to attack each other and call each other terrorists and extremists, go somewhere else and do it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830

posted 02 October 2003 12:07 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Is there? That's an interesting question, isn't it? So I can support terrorism all I want without fear of being recused for my position? Just as long as I don't personally kill anyone, I can't be considered an 'extremist'...

The line is not so neatly drawn as you have done.

[ 01 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


It's like the armchair warrior, and the armchair extremist.

Michelle, extremism does not always shoew up in violence, but in moral support from apalogists like some of the Pro-Israeli posters justifiying the brutality against the Palestinians.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 02 October 2003 12:12 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
No, that's not what this is about, Courage, and you should know it.

It is about both things, Michelle.

quote:
What this is about is trying to keep this forum from descending into nasty name-calling fights.

Yup, it is. It is also about being able to take someone to task when they openly support acts of violence here on Babble, as Mishei has done.

Is openly supporting violence acceptable according to Babble policy, while name-calling is not? Is a spade a spade?


quote:
You know damned well that I'm not trying to make some philosophic point that only people who actually physically carry out violence are "extremists".

Do I? I can only read 'em as I see 'em, Michelle.

quote:
And on BABBLE, we don't call each other terrorists, or Jewish extremists, or Palestinian extremists.

I was under the impression that calling for violence against people is also against Babble policy.

quote:
If you want to attack each other and call each other terrorists and extremists, go somewhere else and do it.

You'll note I've done no such thing, so your song and dance can be for someone else. I was merely pointing out a problematic raised by your point.
If I am in contravention of Babble policy, please say so. If not, your comments are misdirected and unneccessary.

[ 02 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 02 October 2003 12:25 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
This is not the Middle East itself, this is babble.

There is no distinction to made anymore, Michelle.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 02 October 2003 12:25 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, Courage, I didn't say you were in contravention of babble policy. In fact my original remark wasn't even aimed at you, it was aimed at the person who jokingly called Mishei a "Jewish extremist". It was you who then jumped in and insisted on trying to draw it out and turn a simple moderating plea not to call each other names into a big debate. So if you don't want to hear my comments or think they're misdirected, then by all means, feel free not to get on my case every time I try to curb potential flame wars, okay?

Somehow I have a feeling that if Mishei called someone a "Palestinian extremist" if they tried to explain why suicide bombers are driven to such extreme actions, and I told him not to do so, you wouldn't have gotten into a big lather over whether I was stifling debate about whether explaining or supporting an action makes a person an extremist.

Anyhow, this is getting boring. Maybe you thought I posted what I did so I could have a nice long debate with you about whether Mishei really IS a Jewish extremist or not, but I didn't. My post was simply to tell Gaia_Child that it's not appropriate.

You can take it up with Audra if you still have a problem with it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 02 October 2003 12:50 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wanna bet some fella with "extreme" opinions is having a li'l chuckle over this?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 02 October 2003 01:19 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Somehow I have a feeling that if Mishei called someone a "Palestinian extremist" if they tried to explain why suicide bombers are driven to such extreme actions, and I told him not to do so, you wouldn't have gotten into a big lather over whether I was stifling debate about whether explaining or supporting an action makes a person an extremist.


But things aren't equal, are they? If someone came on this board advocating Palestinian suicide attacks - a close analogy - they would get what they get, wouldn't they... Even so, this is unimportant. I WOULD have a problem if you censured Mishei for saying it, actually. I would take him to task up and down for anything that I disagreed with in his statements, but I would never advocate shutting him up. He's highly useful, in fact. Through him, we can all see the perfidity and nonsense required to defend the indefensible, and for this we owe him our sincere thanks.


quote:
Anyhow, this is getting boring. Maybe you thought I posted what I did so I could have a nice long debate with you about whether Mishei really IS a Jewish extremist or not, but I didn't. My post was simply to tell Gaia_Child that it's not appropriate.

Fine. I didn't really worry about your intentions. I took an inference from your statement and replied.

quote:
You can take it up with Audra if you still have a problem with it.

I don't really have a problem with it. On the contrary, it is your language which has been personal and emotive from the outset. Moreover, this 'go tell Audra' comes as a kind of passive aggressive threat. Talk about boring...

[ 02 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 02 October 2003 01:24 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Wanna bet some fella with "extreme" opinions is having a li'l chuckle over this?

I don't particularly care what some fella thinks.

I would advocate his right to say things too, even if it is name-calling....

Some fellas can shout 'antisemitism' (a pretty heavy charge) openly, while others cannot say 'Jewish extremist' because it has violent connotations....

Just the way some fellas like it...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 02 October 2003 01:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:
Moreover, this 'go tell Audra' comes as a kind of passive aggressive threat. Talk about boring...

I was going to just leave it at that, but I must respond to this last charge of yours, Courage. What on earth are you talking about, a passive aggressive threat?

I was telling you that if you have a problem with my moderating decision to take it up with Audra - if anything, I was inviting YOU to go over MY head on it because I was tired of playing merry-go-round with you about it. How on earth could you possibly construe that as a threat?

Well in any case, it wasn't meant as a threat at all. I was simply telling you that you haven't changed my mind about my original statement, and that if you want to, you can file an objection to my moderating with Audra.

As for me being "emotive", well that's a great way to dismiss what I have to say. Yes, I do get frustrated and express it when I can never moderate in this forum without people turning it into a big issue. In fact, I've been pretty much avoiding this forum for a while now except to close long threads, because every time I try to stop it from getting ugly here, I get all this melodrama about how I'm stifling debate, etc.

And there have been lots of times when I have told various posters not to call people anti-semites as well. So no, Courage, it is not tolerated. Perhaps it has happened lately and I haven't noticed, but that's mostly because for the last couple of months, a) I haven't had as much time to read through every thread, and b) because I finally got so sick of having 50-post debates about every little moderating post I make that I finally just stopped bothering with it at all. I was tired of threads becoming like this one has become.

So yeah, that does tend to piss me off, and sometimes that makes me "emotive". It doesn't make my point any less valid.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 02 October 2003 02:02 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

I was telling you that if you have a problem with my moderating decision to take it up with Audra - if anything, I was inviting YOU to go over MY head on it because I was tired of playing merry-go-round with you about it. How on earth could you possibly construe that as a threat?


Fair enough, it was an interpretation based on the emotive tenor of your other posts.

quote:
As for me being "emotive", well that's a great way to dismiss what I have to say.

It was not dismissing, I was stating a fact. You suggested that I had a real 'problem' with what was happening, when I really don't. I was making a discursive point, is all.


quote:
So yeah, that does tend to piss me off, and sometimes that makes me "emotive". It doesn't make my point any less valid.

I didn't say that it did. You yourself said that you were quite emotional about the situation, so I read your comment that if 'I still had a problem' to be more aggressive than it was intended. My mistake.

Interesting how these things go, isn't it?

[ 02 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 02 October 2003 02:05 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[QB]


Well in any case, it wasn't meant as a threat at all. I was simply telling you that you haven't changed my mind about my original statement, and that if you want to, you can file an objection to my moderating with Audra.


This is the crux - I didn't really have a big problem with your original statement as much as how it COULD be construed... That's what I took issue with. Blah, blah....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 02 October 2003 02:24 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe you kids should take this to PM...
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 02 October 2003 02:46 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Maybe you kids should take this to PM...

Who asked you?

[ 02 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged

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