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Author Topic: The lie of the wall
josh
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posted 17 September 2003 10:27 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"The alignment of the fence will, in reality, annex much of the West Bank to Israel. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians will still be living west of the fence, on the Israeli side. Thousands of settlers will be living east of it. Call it what you will - separation it ain't."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/340979.html

Tear down this wall, Mr. Sharon!


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 17 September 2003 10:56 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh, have you read the article "Zionism's Bad Conscience" by Professor Joel Kovel (Bard College). Dr Kovel has a background in psychoanalysis as well as social history; I encountered him through discussions on ecosocialism. It is long, and at times very harsh in its criticism and self-criticism, but I think it is a worthwhile read whether or not one agrees with all of it. This article first appeared in Tikkun:

www.joelkovel.org/zionism.html

I am utterly terrified of what is going on in Israel/Palestine these days ...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 17 September 2003 11:20 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No I haven't. Thanks. I'll take a look.

I don't blame you. I see a bad end down the road if things keep going on the way they are.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 02 October 2003 07:48 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon government approves moving the wall far from the green line as part of a land grab:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/02/international/middleeast/02MIDE.html

Note the map in the article to see how much Palestinian land the wall will take in in order to support the illegal settlement of Ariel.

The question I have is how come so many supposedly liberal Jews in the west do not speak out against this outrage. Why do they remain silent?


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 October 2003 08:47 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now now, josh. The US is cutting aid "slightly" - surely that is punishment enough!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 November 2003 04:22 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"The facts on the ground lay bare that the Apartheid wall, which was ostensibly built to satisfy security needs, is in fact being used as an extremely efficient weapon of dispossession and abuse. Rhetoric aside, the Palestinians' land is being stolen, basic rights to freedom of movement and livelihood are systematically violated, and the rights to education, health and even burial are contravened. The instruments of violation are not only guns, tanks and airplanes, but Caterpillar bulldozers and Fiat tractors.

If the wall is completed, then 50 percent of the West Bank will be annexed to Israel, and there will be no possibility of creating a viable Palestinian state. Moreover, it will not solve Israel's security problems, but rather exacerbate them. By engendering extreme pressure on the Palestinian people, who are already living under dire circumstances, it fosters their sense that there are no prospects for the future, thus motivating people to join extremist groups like the Hamas and Islamic Jihad; indeed, the wall only increases the hatred towards the occupiers and promotes bloody attacks."


http://www.counterpunch.com/


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 06 November 2003 05:03 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bahrain, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Libya ... How many of these Arab states belong to the people? How many belong to their despotic rulers?

So, I ask you, josh, why are you so keen in promoting the creation of another despotic state, one that's right in the heart of Israel?


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 November 2003 05:10 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:

Bahrain, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Libya ... How many of these Arab states belong to the people? How many belong to their despotic rulers?

So, I ask you, josh, why are you so keen in promoting the creation of another despotic state, one that's right in the heart of Israel?


The meds will be dispensed at 6:00 b.t. (babble time).


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 November 2003 05:18 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
C'mon, josh. You know Arabs. For one thing, they all look alike. I mean, they all look, uh ... would you call that Semitic? Whatever. But Palestinians are Arabs, and Libyans are Arabs, so Palestinians are Libyans, right? And we all know about the Libyans, right? All the Libyans ...

Despotic, sure, their governments are mostly despotic. *wink wink* Not that we haven't found that useful, especially in the case of the Saudis. *wink wink* But it is time to denounce them now, for sure, all of them, but especially the Saudis. *wink wink*

Well, so, like, ok, we can't do much to the Saudis. So we do it to the Palestinians. Exceptionally useful as surrogates, no? Great for domestic consumption in the U.S., where any old Arab surrogate will do. Hell, Iran, which is not Arab, will do.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 06 November 2003 05:20 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, Arabs are despots in their very hearts. They can't help it; it's some kind of recessive gene.

That's why we need to prevent fascism... by crushing them ruthlessly with an iron fist! Ah, the ignorant bliss of doublethink.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 06 November 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The meds will be dispensed at 6:00 b.t. (babble time).

yes, josh, make sure you don't miss it.

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 November 2003 05:41 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidB-D:

yes, josh, make sure you don't miss it.


"miss it" ... ???

DavidBad-Diction, could you clarify for me the antecedent for "it" in that last post?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 06 November 2003 05:43 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Come on, come on. The grammar thing is so past-tense.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 06 November 2003 05:49 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
By engendering extreme pressure on the Palestinian people, who are already living under dire circumstances, it fosters their sense that there are no prospects for the future...

Which is for many Israelis to be considered 'Mission Accomplished'. The concrete twist that this wall gives to the Revisionist/Likudite "Iron Wall Strategy" is stunning and repulsive.

[ 06 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 06 November 2003 05:52 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"miss it" ... ???

DavidBad-Diction, could you clarify for me the antecedent for "it" in that last post?


Ma'am, if I were to answer you in the style that josh has used, and not wanting to offend the animal kingdom, I would say, "Lady, why don't you go fuck yourself." But I won't.


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 November 2003 06:04 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
pax, ok, but DavidB-D was giving others a hard time about dictionnaires yesterday, so, y'know ...

And David, honey, I'll write nice to you ... if ever I see you write out a complete thought relevant to the declared topic.

Just do drive-by posts, though, and most of us are going to decide that you're a baiter at best, a troll more likely. And as Sarcasmo warned you yesterday: this is his bridge!


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 November 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, dearest skdadl, it is far too trying to be anything but bemused when one of your lessers offers up nothing more than an epithet for a put down, eh?

Now you go on home Master DJ DavidB before we call your mother.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 November 2003 07:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sweet dreams, dearest Wingy.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 November 2003 07:09 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Our Place in the World: Wall more about control than security

quote:
The only true part in this image is that my compatriots in Israel are at risk of terror attacks. All the rest is blatantly false. For starters, the Palestinian Authority is a powerless, almost meaningless body, whose leaders cannot cross the street in Ramallah without permission from an Israeli soldier. Even at its heyday, the authority's power relative to Israel's was akin to that of the King County Council compared with the U.S. government. This little piece of knowledge alone collapses the entire image. It also raises serious suspicions as to who has been shaping the current reality.



http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/145205_ourplace24.html

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 06 November 2003 07:16 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Our Place in the World: Wall more about control than security


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/145205_ourplace24.html


I wonder if the author is 'honest and serious' enough to pass muster?

I wonder how 'honest and serious' we should consider the high-ranking Israeli military official who recently said, "Better Palestinian mothers should cry and not Jewish mothers"?

This seems to be the obscene underside to support for that Wall. Dress it up in 'leftist' clothing all you want, the excuse is still that making Palestinians suffer is reasonable considering Jews' security concerns....

[ 06 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 November 2003 10:27 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"But all these events and many others (whose
frequency has made them commonplace) combine to
become one picture: Israel has acquired the
status of a pariah state, whose definition as
an apartheid state is not determined as such
only because all concerned - and for
contradictory reasons - insist on referring to
the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as "the
occupied territories."

. . . .

"The delusions, the self-righteousness, and the
disassociation from a hostile world and the
distancing from universal norms are symptoms of
a society sinking into apartheid, as the South
Africans who experienced that descent can
attest."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/357687.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 November 2003 12:47 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, how did I miss this thread? Well, everyone seems to be over the "not playing nice" thing, so I guess I'll let sleeping dogs lie.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 11 November 2003 07:13 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Israel's projected route for a controversial barrier would put nearly 15 percent of West Bank land on the Israeli side and disrupt the lives of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, according to a United Nations report released today."

"The barrier will create 12 separate enclaves in which the Palestinians will be surrounded by the barrier on all sides and can exit only through gates controlled by the Israeli security forces, the report said.

Only 11 percent of the barrier is to be built along the so-called Green Line, the armistice line set at the end of the 1948-49 Mideast war between Israel and its Arab neighbors.

The fence will put 14.5 percent of West Bank land on the western, or Israeli, side, the report said.

"This land, some of the most fertile in the West Bank, is currently the home for more than 274,00 Palestinians," the report said."

http://tinyurl.com/um1h


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 11 November 2003 11:07 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The United Nations agency said that according to the map released by Israel, the barrier will travel more than 400 miles on a twisting route through the West Bank.

Is there any particular reason why, if this map has been "released by Israel", the New York Times fails to print a copy of it accompanying the story, so we can see for ourselves?

In fact, I can't seem to find this map which was "released by Israel" (a couple weeks ago, apparently) ANYWHERE, despite extensive efforts. Are my Googling skills in decline, or is this map being kept deliberately obscure?

If anyone can find it, please post it post-haste.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 11 November 2003 11:54 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gush Shalom has a copy. It's enough to make your eyes pop out of your head.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 11 November 2003 11:55 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Here is a map that I looked at recently. I am not sure how current it is.

http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 12 November 2003 12:06 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Here are some pics and info on how 50,000 people have lost their horizon.

http://www.jatonyc.org/eric/earth.html


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 12 November 2003 12:53 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Check these out: some satellite photos of the wall, including the town of Qalqilyah mentioned in Bubbles' post, completely and entirely surrounded. Like a giant prison camp.

Note the farmers' fields, cut off on the other side of the railroad tracks.

This seems to be the most recent map I can find. Still can't find the official Israeli gov't version, though. Hundreds of media outlets reported the release of the map, but as far as I can tell none of them actually printed it. Bizarre.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 12 November 2003 07:57 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is barbarism.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 November 2003 08:16 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love the editorial cartoon accompanying that first map that was posted:

I look at these maps, and I see red. If that's how I feel, imagine how Palestinians feel. Caged like dogs. Land stolen out from under their feet. Unfuckingbelievable.

And what does the US say? "Oh Israel, naughty naughty, here's some more money, now be a good girl."


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 November 2003 06:29 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No longer content to chop away at Palestine until it eventually disappears, Israel is now using the "security fence" as a vehicle for the more rapid and overt methods of large-scale ethnic cleansing. This grave step ushers in the terminal stage of the cleansing process, in which years of organized persecution, brutality, bigotry and theft, all the patriotic acts required in the effort to dehumanize another people, finally succeed in radically dehumanizing the perpetrators. At this point, it is simple to use the bureaucracy of the state to erase a people's very existence. With the stroke a pen, an entire region can be "Judaized", with assurance that the necessary consequences will follow in time.

Naughty

The Apartheid Wall


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 21 November 2003 12:04 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Personally I think what they are doing is worse then the apartheid as practiced by South Africa in the past. Canada should break off all diplomatic and commercial relations with Israel at the very least.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 21 November 2003 01:34 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That would cause a helluva shitstorm, and you know and I know that Hillel, the CJC, and everybody else would be up in arms over it.

It's just not politically feasible.

Please refresh yourselves on this thread before we cover old ground re: the wall.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 21 November 2003 02:13 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So if there were once a strong Afrikaaner lobby in the West, South Africa would still be a racist state?

Progressives have to lobby as vigourously as the Zionist groups.

The Vatican Slams Apartheid Wall

quote:
Pope John Paul II has criticised Israel's construction of a barrier cutting off parts of the occupied West Bank, the first time the pontiff condemns the wall.


On the eve of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s visit to Rome, the Pope said on Sunday the Middle East “does not need walls but bridges”.



From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 21 November 2003 09:17 AM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the Pope said on Sunday the Middle East “does not need walls but bridges”.

Sly fox, His Holiness is (bridges are easier to blow up than tearing down walls).

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 21 November 2003 10:31 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
I thought that building walls on other peoples property would be politically impossible too. Maybe it is not so impossible to break relations with Israel when seen in that light. We have to stop this kind of theft and ethnic molestation before it is accepted as a norm for others to copy.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 21 November 2003 10:31 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So it's all about what's "easiest" for Israel now is it??

Let's not even think about what's "easiest" or "hardest" for the Palestinians!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 21 November 2003 11:31 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sly fox, His Holiness is (bridges are easier to blow up than tearing down walls).

So the Pope is a terrorist too, David Bande-Dessiné?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 21 November 2003 02:51 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
So it's all about what's "easiest" for Israel now is it??

Let's not even think about what's "easiest" or "hardest" for the Palestinians!!


I'm just being bloody realistic here. You know and I know that it's a politically dicey issue to be discussing Israel in the kind of terms we employ here on babble.

Any official in the Canadian government who called Israel's actions "fascist" would probably get thrown out on their ear after the ensuing shitstorm raised by the groups I mentioned above.

... even if they are fascist at root.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 21 November 2003 03:52 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
If our government is that insensitive about injustice then all the more reason to heat the coals. Unless we want to be sitting ducks ready to be corraled at some other date.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 November 2003 04:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bubbles:
Personally I think what they are doing is worse then the apartheid as practiced by South Africa in the past. Canada should break off all diplomatic and commercial relations with Israel at the very least.

This is nothing but rhetorical nonsence. It is the type of hyperbole that in the end turns off many Canadians.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 21 November 2003 06:17 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Instead of using bluster, why not explain how the two apartheids differ, Mish, and why the world community should not treat the Israelis as Afrikaaners were treated?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 21 November 2003 08:57 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We have to stop this kind of theft and ethnic molestation before it is accepted as a norm for others to copy.

That's the thing, though. It is the norm.

That's why it's so difficult (note I said difficult, not undesirable or unnecessary) to stop it.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 22 November 2003 12:13 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Nodoubt it is difficult, but the Israelis have given us a clue. They think barriers are an effective cure for their ills, well, let us put some barriers in their way. Not that I think barriers are terribly effective, but let them find out for themselfs by giving them a taste of their own medicine.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 22 November 2003 04:16 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Instead of using bluster, why not explain how the two apartheids differ, Mish, and why the world community should not treat the Israelis as Afrikaaners were treated?
The response here is obvious. As far as the state of Israel is concerned it has complete freedom of religion. Indeed when it comes to freedom of religion it is the Jews themseleves that face stricture. In Israel Jewish law must conform to orthodox practice which does discriminate against secular, reform and conservative Jews.. Clearly though despite imperfections Israel is far more accepting of religious pluralism than any other country in the Middle east, any Muslim state and most Christian states.

Yes there is some discrimination against Israel's Arab citizens. Most cannot serve in the army but clearly few would choose to fight against fellow Arabs if given a choice. Until recently Arabs could not buy homes in certain Jewish areas just as Jews cannot by homes in certain Arab areas. However the Israeli Supreme Court overuled this law last year. Indeed Chief Justice Aaron Barak wrote this in his judgement:

quote:
The principle of equality of all citizens applies to the allocation of state land...The Jewish character of the state does not permit Israel to discriminate against its citizens...

In short it is Israel's neighbors like Jordan for example that practises open apartheid where citizenship is expressly forbidden to Jews. And Suadi Arabia also prohibits any non-muslim from citizenship. Interstingly both Germany and China have laws of return yet only Israel is pointed to here as being racist. Hypocrates all.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 November 2003 06:32 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The difference is, you can, in principle, convert to Judaism and by this route claim citizenship in another country solely on that basis.

With respect to Germany, I would have to prove my ancestry goes back to at least Bismarck's time, or back into the 1870s and probably even earlier, in order to automatically get citizenship there.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 November 2003 06:43 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A strange aspect, yet one consistent with Zionist mythology, about your definition of Israeli apartheid, Mish, is that you ignore the Palestinians of the occupied territories.

They exist. They are a people - despite your denials.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 22 November 2003 07:49 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
The difference is, you can, in principle, convert to Judaism and by this route claim citizenship in another country solely on that basis.

With respect to Germany, I would have to prove my ancestry goes back to at least Bismarck's time, or back into the 1870s and probably even earlier, in order to automatically get citizenship there.


You do not have to be Jewish to obtain Israeli citizenship. There are Muslims and Christinas as well as many more who are citizens of Israel.

We are for the purposes of this discussion talking about the state of Israel Al not the PA.

As for the Palestinians, yes they are under occupying law. They are not citizens of the state of Israel. With a two-state solution they will be citizens of their own state.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 November 2003 08:11 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We are for the purposes of this discussion talking about the state of Israel Al not the PA

Righto, Queen Victoria.

When the Zionist soliloquy is over, let us know when the discussion will become inclusive.


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Bubbles
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posted 22 November 2003 08:33 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Worse then Apartheid, Apartheid denied.
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Mishei
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posted 22 November 2003 08:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Righto, Queen Victoria.

When the Zionist soliloquy is over, let us know when the discussion will become inclusive.



I guess you just dont understand that in order to get citizenship in any country there are certain criteria. Living under occupation does not permit you to get citizenship from the occupying powers. Hence Iraqis cannot obtain USA citizenship.

Hopefully when there is a leadership in the PA and Israel that can negotiate a full Palestinian state (and I pray that comes soon) then Palestinians can realize their national aspirations as Isarelis have for 55 years in a state of their own.


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beluga2
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posted 22 November 2003 09:44 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I guess you just dont understand that in order to get citizenship in any country there are certain criteria. Living under occupation does not permit you to get citizenship from the occupying powers.

Well, no, but neither does meeting the "criteria" for Israeli citizenship permit you to settle in those illegally occupied territories.

As it stands now, I could "convert" to Judaism, get on a plane, become an Israeli citizen, and take up residence in one of the government-subsidized illegal colonies established on stolen Arab land. Just like those Peruvian natives who became "instant Jews" and got plunked down right smack dab into the middle of the West Bank. Remember them?

Meanwhile, Arabs whose families have lived on that land for longer than my family has lived in Canada have to apply for permits in order to continue living in their ancestral homes. Terrible.

These things can't be smoothed over, Mishei. And that awful Wall is making it all far, far worse. The 200,000-odd Palestinians on the west side of the wall have effectively been annexed to Israel. Will they now become Israeli citizens, or remain stateless and adrift?


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 November 2003 09:22 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by beluga2:

Well, no, but neither does meeting the "criteria" for Israeli citizenship permit you to settle in those illegally occupied territories.

As it stands now, I could "convert" to Judaism, get on a plane, become an Israeli citizen, and take up residence in one of the government-subsidized illegal colonies established on stolen Arab land. Just like those Peruvian natives who became "instant Jews" and got plunked down right smack dab into the middle of the West Bank. Remember them?

Meanwhile, Arabs whose families have lived on that land for longer than my family has lived in Canada have to apply for permits in order to continue living in their ancestral homes. Terrible.

These things can't be smoothed over, Mishei. And that awful Wall is making it all far, far worse. The 200,000-odd Palestinians on the west side of the wall have effectively been annexed to Israel. Will they now become Israeli citizens, or remain stateless and adrift?



I think we all agree that the present situation regarding the territories is untenable. But making blanket statements (puposeful lies?) as you have done claiming that the territories are de facto Israel proper does not help.

BTW please post some information about the "Peruvian" converts. I do not know much about this story of yours.

Out of interest I found some facinating information myself on the issue of the Peruvian jews.

Peruvian Jewish converts

[ 23 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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Mycroft_
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posted 23 November 2003 01:20 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I guess you just dont understand that in order to get citizenship in any country there are certain criteria. Living under occupation does not permit you to get citizenship from the occupying powers. Hence Iraqis cannot obtain USA citizenship.

Hopefully when there is a leadership in the PA and Israel that can negotiate a full Palestinian state (and I pray that comes soon) then Palestinians can realize their national aspirations as Isarelis have for 55 years in a state of their own.


I have a Palestinian friend whose parents were born in what is now Israel proper as were her grandparents, greatgrandparents etc. Can she get Israeli citizenship? Can her parents?


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Mishei
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posted 23 November 2003 03:05 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft:

I have a Palestinian friend whose parents were born in what is now Israel proper as were her grandparents, greatgrandparents etc. Can she get Israeli citizenship? Can her parents?


If they lived in Israel at the time of its proclamation and stayed then they are entitlled to citizenship. If they left they are not entitled to citizenship. Remember Israel was proclaimed in 1948. Prior to that the area was under British mandate. Would thye have the right to British citizenship?

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Mycroft_
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posted 23 November 2003 03:13 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But as a democrat don't you believe in the concept of 'birthright', that you have a right to live in the place where you were born? Or do you believe it's ok to suspend that right when it's demographically inconvenient?

And you never have answered the question of what you think should happen if the majority in Israel proper is not Jewish in 50 years.

[ 23 November 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 November 2003 03:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's an interesting question, actually. I imagine that citizens of a Mandate were not considered British subjects, although citizens of all Empire/Commonwealth countries -- ie, former colonies -- were until various times during the C20.

That many people born as British subjects in the Caribbean and on the subcontinent began to take their citizenship seriously in the fifties, sixties, and seventies -- and to "return" to Britain -- was the main reason that the British government suddenly tightened up rules for "repatriation" drastically. When the empire started to take the mama country at its word and began going home, mama country freaked!

Enough made it under the wire to make the UK a vastly more interesting place than it would have been otherwise.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 23 November 2003 03:21 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not sure which part of my post you're claiming is a "purposeful lie", Mishei. I'm not the one who claims that the territories are "de facto Israel" -- it's various Israeli governments since '67, both Likud and Labour, that have been doing that, thru their continuous settlement policies. The settlers, after all, are Israeli citizens by definition, are they not?

Israel can "convert" as many Peruvians as they like -- as long as they then live in Israel.

Israel's right to determine its own citizenship policies is not the issue -- it's Israel's granting their citizens, recent converts or not, the "right" to live on someone else's land.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 23 November 2003 05:24 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
If they lived in Israel at the time of its proclamation and stayed then they are entitlled to citizenship. If they left they are not entitled to citizenship. Remember Israel was proclaimed in 1948. Prior to that the area was under British mandate. Would thye have the right to British citizenship?

Those that 'left', huh? Yeah, they just up and decided to move one day. No reason, just thought it might be nicer a little further east....

Way to write-out an ethnic cleansing, Mishei...


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Courage
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posted 23 November 2003 05:30 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH.....

The sound of the Memory Hole vacuum....


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Mycroft_
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posted 23 November 2003 05:32 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why did they leave, Mishei?
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 November 2003 07:19 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They never existed, remember? There is no such thing as a Palestinian. The land was vacant until Jews moved in and made the desert bloom.

And that whole "British citizenship" question is a red-coated herring that means nothing.

Check this out

quote:
The former senior rabbi of a town near Tel Aviv has been found guilty of receiving cash in exchange for certificates showing that people had converted to Judaism.

Kosher baksheesh?

[ 10 January 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory
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posted 23 November 2003 07:23 PM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More Israelis challenging Sharon's tough approach

quote:
Amid increasing criticism he fosters violence not peace, Israel's leader prepares to meet his Palestinian counterpart this week

By Joel Greenberg
Special to the Tribune
Published November 23, 2003

JERUSALEM -- With Prime Minister Ariel Sharon expected to meet his Palestinian counterpart this week, pressure is growing on the Israeli leader to ease tough military tactics and take the political initiative after three years of bloody conflict with the Palestinians.

Rumblings of discontent have come from the army chief of staff and four former chiefs of the security services, from members of Sharon's governing coalition and from opposition politicians who have forged their own model peace agreement with Palestinian counterparts.

"There is a general sense of malaise, of immobility, of a lack of vision," said Yaron Ezrahi, professor of political science at Hebrew University. "Three years of testing the pure right-wing position that more force will bring the desired result have been demonstrably a failure."

The meeting between Sharon and new Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia is expected this week. Next month in Cairo, separate talks are planned to arrange a cease-fire by Palestinian militant groups, a key step in reviving the Middle East peace plan known as the road map.

On Thursday, Sharon said his government could carry out "unilateral steps." He did not elaborate, but officials suggested that the steps could include lifting blockades and withdrawing troops from Palestinian cities in the West Bank.

Sharon has been prodded in recent weeks to loosen the army's grip on Palestinian areas and to move forward on the political front.

His public approval ratings have been sliding. An opinion poll published this month by the Ma'ariv newspaper showed Sharon's popularity at the lowest point since he was first elected prime minister, with 57 percent of the respondents saying they were dissatisfied with his performance. Only 34 percent said they were satisfied, while 9 percent said they had no opinion.

Police investigations of suspected corruption involving Sharon and his sons have further threatened his standing. Fraud investigators questioned Sharon for seven hours last month in connection with suspected bribery by an Israeli businessman, and a second investigation is under way into a loan received from another businessman and family friend from South Africa.


[ 23 November 2003: Message edited by: majorvictory ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 23 November 2003 07:48 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not so different from a case here in BC where a road test examiner got busted for taking bribes in order to pass people who got their drivers' licences. People will line their pockets if they can get a chance to do it and don't have a sense of professional ethics.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory
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posted 10 January 2004 11:34 AM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel Fears Isolation, Sanctions Over Fence

quote:
Slam the Court, Advisers Urge

By ORI NIR

WASHINGTON — Bracing for a ruling against its separation fence by the World Court — which could pave the way for South Africa-style international sanctions — Israel and its allies here are considering a campaign to discredit the court as a biased organ of the United Nations.

The proposed campaign is highly controversial even among Israel's top strategists, who acknowledge that it could alienate moderates and liberals who view the court with respect. Nonetheless, the move is seen by some senior advisers as an inevitable last step if the court rejects Israel's arguments and rules the fence a violation of international law, something most observers consider all but certain.

"The case is a foregone conclusion," said legal expert Alan Dershowitz, who returned last week from Jerusalem, where he was advising officials on confronting the court. "Israel's going to lose. The only question is whether it will lose unanimously, and there is a substantial chance it might."

Dershowitz said friends of Israel should "be prepared to expose this court for what it really is," adding that "it would be insulting to kangaroos to call it a kangaroo court."

The Bush administration, which takes a dim view of international tribunals but does not approve of the fence, has not yet decided if it would support such a campaign, several sources said.

The court, formally known as the International Court of Justice, was asked by the U.N. General Assembly on December 8 to rule on "the legal implications of building a wall in occupied Palestinian territory." The 15 justices are scheduled to hear arguments in the Hague on February 23. The court will hear the case in an "advisory" mode, which means the ruling will not be binding in international law as some of its rulings are.

However, if the court advises the U.N. that the barrier violates international law, as expected, the U.N. may move to impose sanctions on the Jewish state. Israel's justice minister, Yosef Lapid, warned Sunday that Israel may find itself isolated internationally if the fence is not rerouted to follow Israel's pre-1967 border.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 10 January 2004 03:39 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It would be ironic if Sharon's blatant land-grab attempt ends up hobbling the very expansionist goals he's trying to accomplish. Let's hope. Bring on the sanctions.

I'm not optimistic about the US going along, though, to put it mildly. If there are South Africa-style international sanctions, I suspect the Shrubniks will emulate Ronnie Reagan's old "constructive engagement" stance. In other words, keep giving Sharon their unwavering support.

Remember, the US was condemned by the World Court in '86 for their terrorist war against Nicaragua. The US response was a big Fuck You to the Court. The Repugnicans don't need Israeli urging to express their utter contempt for international law.

Nice to see Dershowitz is up to his usual disgraceful tricks. Why is that guy running around loose?


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory
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posted 17 January 2004 01:52 AM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel Considers Image Change for Fence

quote:
Thursday January 15, 2004 9:01 PM

By JASON KEYSER

Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM (AP) - Israel is considering a name change for its massive complex of walls, fences and watch towers in the West Bank to improve its international image - the ``Terror Prevention Fence.''

The new title for what is now called the ``security fence'' is part of an intensifying public relations battle as officials on both sides bring in high-powered legal and publicity advisers ahead of a Feb. 23 world court hearing on the wall's legality.

Alan Dershowitz, a Harvard law professor who has defended O.J. Simpson and other high-profile clients, has offered to help the Israeli campaign, officials said.

More than the barrier is at stake. ``In a way, the occupation is on trial,'' said Israeli analyst Yossi Alpher. ``The process in The Hague will get to some very basic questions.''

Israel says the barrier, which dips deep into the West Bank in some areas, is meant to keep out Palestinian suicide bombers and other attackers. Palestinians call it a land grab. The construction has sparked condemnation from some countries, with the visiting Irish foreign minister and 11 bishops from Europe and the Americas joining the growing group of critics Thursday.

The name change was one idea tossed around at a meeting Wednesday evening between Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and high-ranking government officials, though a final decision was not made, said Jonathan Peled, a Foreign Ministry spokesman.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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posted 19 January 2004 09:21 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

some fence


From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 21 January 2004 12:53 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Terror Prevention Fence

Boy, they really think we're dumb, don't they? "It has a new name? Duhhh... well, it must be okay then!!"

Unfortunately, many people are that dumb.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 21 January 2004 02:23 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mapping Israel's 'wall' a dicey job
quote:
His difficult and dangerous job -- he has been threatened by Israelis and Palestinians alike -- is to roam the West Bank, documenting the growth of Jewish outposts and settlements. Currently he is also monitoring the progress of the security barrier snaking its way through the West Bank.....

Mr. Etkes is unapologetic about his leftist politics. He originally turned down his current job, considering Peace Now to be too middle-class and moderate. But he changed his mind after the outbreak of violence more than three years ago. He regards the power of his work as lying not in the polemics it inspires but in the accuracy of his documentation.



There's some chutzpah for you.

From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 01 February 2004 10:37 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Does anyone know why Canada is opposing an international hearing on the building of this wall?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/389190.html


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 01 February 2004 10:47 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Remember who's Prime Minister now - the clone of Brian Mulroney.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 01 February 2004 10:58 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
You mean Paul Martin might be pandering to US interrests? That would be disappointing. Maybe he has the shipping contract for the wall ingredients.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 February 2004 12:32 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Paul Martin? Pander to the US? Neverrrrrrrrrr!
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 February 2004 10:52 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is my understanding that South Africa has joined 50 other countries in arguing that while they do not agree with the present placement of the security fence the issue does not belong in a world court. These countries also do not take issue with the fence itself only , as i have noted, the land on which it is being built.

To those who insist the fence is an "aprtheid wall" perhaps you can explain South Africa's position then.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 05 February 2004 01:36 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
To those who insist the fence is an "aprtheid wall" perhaps you can explain South Africa's position then.

Well the leader of South Africa has some pretty unique opinions regarding AIDS so I would hesitate to use the South African Government as a parameter for anything.

And maybe your under the mistaken impression that just because Aprtheid is offically dead that Africanners have just changed their minds about being biogts and wether seperation of races is good. I am sure many believe the wall is okay, and with the epidemic levels of violence and rape in many areas of South Africa they pretty much would like their wall back to protect them from as many say "the savages". The whites still hold economic power over there, the blacks didn't just get to move into white neighbourhoods and start a new life, they still live in hell and half of them are dying.

So Mishei, next time you want to use a country as an example of how that disgusting wall is not offensive if said country doesn't protest don't you use a country like South Africa, which you seem to know very little about.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 February 2004 01:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:

Well the leader of South Africa has some pretty unique opinions regarding AIDS so I would hesitate to use the South African Government as a parameter for anything.

And maybe your under the mistaken impression that just because Aprtheid is offically dead that Africanners have just changed their minds about being biogts and wether seperation of races is good. I am sure many believe the wall is okay, and with the epidemic levels of violence and rape in many areas of South Africa they pretty much would like their wall back to protect them from as many say "the savages". The whites still hold economic power over there, the blacks didn't just get to move into white neighbourhoods and start a new life, they still live in hell and half of them are dying.

So Mishei, next time you want to use a country as an example of how that disgusting wall is not offensive if said country doesn't protest don't you use a country like South Africa, which you seem to know very little about.


Scout I know more about SA than you will ever understand. Bottom line, it is a country with a government that fully understood the wrod "apartheid". The fence may be many things but it does not equal apartheid. South African's understand this you dont want to understand it because it does not meet with your vision of "evil Israel".

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 05 February 2004 02:00 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Scout I know more about SA than you will ever understand.

Really Mishei? Are you married to a South African, are a your in-laws South African? Do they live in South Africa? Have you been reccently? Do you know anyone who has been carjacked lately? Are you spending time reading and learning about SA, as it will be your childrens culture?

You already proved you don't know very much about South Africa presently, and why they might not disapprove of the wall, there are still plenty of racists there, they just don't run the country openly anymore, they still have all the money and most of the power. They have their little walls in their gated communities.

Thabo Mbeki, doesn't believe that HIV causes AIDS, your lucky to have him on your side Mishei. As well, the majority of South African's are still so poor and uneducated they don't even know their country is discussing the Wall, nor would they likely care, considering they are dropping like flies. I believe more die every day than have been killed by sucide bombers. So if an uneducated, illerate, dying population are in your corner you must be right.

[ 05 February 2004: Message edited by: Scout ]


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 05 February 2004 02:04 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei:

Is there anything regarding this whole situation that you would blame the state of Israel for? Or do you really buy the line that the problem is Arab intransigence?


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 February 2004 02:06 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:

Really Mishei? Are you married to a South African, are a your in-laws South African? Do they live in South Africa? Have you been reccently? Do you know anyone who has been carjacked lately? Are you spending time reading and learning about SA, as it will be your childrens culture?
.



Yes I have been to SA and yes i do know someone who was carjacked there. But frankly while there are politicains there who have more than a questionable record they do know what apartheid means. And they fully know that Israel's anti-terrorim fence is no manifestation of apartheid.

BTW, Canada and 50 other countries seem to have taken a similar position as SA. But of course you know far more than all of them combined.

[ 05 February 2004: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 05 February 2004 02:24 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But of course you know far more than all of them combined.

Ya, that's what I said Mishei and don't you forget it! Thats what everyone who disagrees with you is saying. Bravo!

So how is you know more about South Africa again? You never really answered that? As usual you just shoot your mouth off, and are quite comfortable acting like you know more than all those around here.

quote:
And they fully know that Israel's anti-terrorim fence is no manifestation of apartheid.

Got any quotes? Or just your opinion as a supporter of the fence? How abut from Mandela? He knows about apartheid.

quote:
"Any country that respects itself cannot speak about peace with Israel so long as Israel continues occupying its land."

hmmm, who said that?

Does excessive use of eye rollies actually make you feel smarter? It sure doesn't make you look smarter, you just look like a condescending smug prick.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 05 February 2004 06:23 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe Nelson Mandela and/or Desmond Tutu went on record as saying that, in fact, it is very much like South African apartheid--perhaps worse. But I'm sure Mishei knows much more about apartheid than they do.
From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 February 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
I believe Nelson Mandela and/or Desmond Tutu went on record as saying that, in fact, it is very much like South African apartheid--perhaps worse. But I'm sure Mishei knows much more about apartheid than they do.
Please show me where either have made a comment comparing Israel to apartheid. It would be helpful. Thanks

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 05 February 2004 07:03 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A Letter from Nelson Mandela to Thomas Friedman

quote:

Perhaps it is strange for you to observe the situation in Palestine or more specifically, the structure of political and cultural relationships between Palestinians and Israelis, as an apartheid system. This is because you incorrectly think that the problem of Palestine began in 1967. This was demonstrated in your recent column "Bush's First Memo" in the New York Times on March 27, 2001.

You seem to be surprised to hear that there are still problems of 1948 to be solved, the most important component of which is the right to return of Palestinian refugees....

Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

The responses made by South Africa to human rights abuses emanating from the removal policies and apartheid policies respectively, shed light on what Israeli society must necessarily go through before one can speak of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East and an end to its apartheid policies.



From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 05 February 2004 07:10 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Apartheid in the Holy Land

Desmond Tutu writing in the Guardian:

quote:
In our struggle against apartheid, the great supporters were Jewish people. They almost instinctively had to be on the side of the disenfranchised, of the voiceless ones, fighting injustice, oppression and evil. I have continued to feel strongly with the Jews. I am patron of a Holocaust centre in South Africa. I believe Israel has a right to secure borders.

What is not so understandable, not justified, is what it did to another people to guarantee its existence. I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about.



From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 February 2004 07:26 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mandela has compared the Israeli persecution of Marwan Barghouti to his own at the hands of the Apartheid-era South Africans.

[ 05 February 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 05 February 2004 11:25 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your welcome Mishei.

Funny, if no one had replied posthaste Mishei would be in here yapping at us, and Mishei I can pull quotes from other reccent threads so don't get all hissy. And now - he's no where to be found. I know, he has a life after work, I mean outside babble.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 February 2004 09:09 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well it seems that Nelson Mandela has said many things sometimes even contradictory statements. For example:

quote:
I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel, within secure borders.

Mandela


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 February 2004 09:12 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That doesn't contradict the quotes above, Mishei, as you will see just from the blurb that Slim posted in this thread:

quote:
I have continued to feel strongly with the Jews. I am patron of a Holocaust centre in South Africa. I believe Israel has a right to secure borders.

What is not so understandable, not justified, is what it did to another people to guarantee its existence. I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa.


Whoops, sorry, this is Desmond Tutu, not Mandela. But still, he understood the need for secure borders, while still decrying the apartheid that is happening in Israel and the West Bank.

P.S. Mishei, I'm still waiting for you to back up this statement:

quote:
Scout I know more about SA than you will ever understand.

[ 06 February 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 February 2004 10:55 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, some issues need not be discussed. My connection to SA is personal and private. Im sorry if you and others will not accept that.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 06 February 2004 11:10 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, it was you who brought it into the conversation by bragging that you know more about SA than Scout. If you didn't want it discussed, you shouldn't have brought it up.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 February 2004 11:20 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Hey, it was you who brought it into the conversation by bragging that you know more about SA than Scout. If you didn't want it discussed, you shouldn't have brought it up.
I responded to Scout not in a "bragging" manner only to let her/hin know that there was a connection. Thanks for your understanding.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 February 2004 11:22 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think telling someone that you know more about SA than they "will ever understand" sounds pretty much like bragging to me, Mishei, especially when you're called on it, and unwilling to either back it up or back down on it.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 February 2004 11:35 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I think telling someone that you know more about SA than they "will ever understand" sounds pretty much like bragging to me, Mishei, especially when you're called on it, and unwilling to either back it up or back down on it.

There is a difference between "anything you will ever UNDERSTAND" and "bragging". The term "understand" should have been the clue. Thanks again for your sensitivity to this issuenow that I have explained it.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 06 February 2004 11:47 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think bragging is the right term. It smacks more of lordly condescension to me.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 06 February 2004 12:01 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
I don't think bragging is the right term. It smacks more of lordly condescension to me.
Thanks for your understanding too...if you only knew.....


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 06 February 2004 12:15 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you didn't want it discussed, you shouldn't have brought it up.

You want to address this Mishei? Or are you just going to ignore the dishonesty in your actions. You brought it up, and now it’s off the discussion block? This routine is tired.

quote:
I responded to Scout not in a "bragging" manner only to let her/hin know that there was a connection. Thanks for your understanding.

You didn't leave room for the possibility that anyone else might have a "personal" or "private" connection either. That’s condescending. You condescended. And now you lack the common courtesy to apologize.

quote:
Thanks again for your sensitivity to this issuenow that I have explained it.

And thanks for the sensitivity you showed when you passed judgement on my life and experiences and those of my loved ones, and dismissed it with disdain.

As for the “understand” bit, how is it I wouldn’t understand? Because you won’t discuss it, or because some how I am just incapable? Back your assumption up, especially when they are personal.

quote:
Thanks for your understanding too...if you only knew.....

Well we don’t, so it’s irrelevant, your using some incident we’ll never know about to justify your condescending treatment of myself and the experiences I have had that you’ll never know about. It’s not all about you Mishei. And this is a dishonest way to debate.

I doubt you have actually violated babble policy but in this thread you have completely dismissed me and my experiences with absolute arrogance and condescension, and you know, just maybe, if enough people complain about your inability to play fair, maybe we’ll not have to suffer you any longer.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 06 February 2004 12:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And thanks for the sensitivity you showed when you passed judgement on my life and experiences and those of my loved ones, and dismissed it with disdain.


This is completely unfair but typical. I NEVER did such a thing. That you would accuse me of it shows only how low you are willing to go. Sad really.

quote:
I doubt you have actually violated babble policy but in this thread you have completely dismissed me and my experiences with absolute arrogance and condescension, and you know, just maybe, if enough people complain about your inability to play fair, maybe we’ll not have to suffer you any longer.


I see so now you make judgements admit it has nothing to do with babble policy then urge moderators to ban me based on your personal assesment. Thta's democracy for you.

Scout your accusations against me are really sad. That you wish to force me to discuss something personal is bad enough. I should never have even brought it up. I see it was unfair especially given the heartless manner in which I am now being attacked.

I apologize for mentioning that I even had a personal connection. I will not bring it up again. If there are some here that wish to continue the whipping go ahead and again, all of you , thanks so much for your caring attitude.

[ 06 February 2004: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 06 February 2004 12:21 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You told me I'd never understand. You have no idea about my life. And it's me that is sinking low? Give me a break.

Have some class and admit you made in assumption about my life. Don't malign me. You aren't the injured party here. Ya big suck.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 06 February 2004 12:31 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
You told me I'd never understand. Have some class and admit you made in assumption about my life. Don't malign me. You aren't the injured party here. Ya big suck
And that is true

you could NEVER understand my personal issue.

And really Scout ad hominem attacks are so not needed


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 06 February 2004 12:32 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh look, a hundred posts.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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