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Author Topic: Israel's security Cabinet decides in principle to expel Yasser Arafat
LocoMoto
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posted 11 September 2003 02:58 PM      Profile for LocoMoto        Edit/Delete Post
Just in on CNN.
From: North Carolina | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
lùx
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posted 13 September 2003 08:41 PM      Profile for lùx        Edit/Delete Post
"Decides in principle". Odd - for a government that has no principles!
From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
kiowa
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posted 13 September 2003 10:05 PM      Profile for kiowa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's a guy I see fairly regularly when I indulge my caffeine habit. He's maybe 55 years old. He was born just outside of Saigon. We talked a bit this morning about the nature of war.

One of the most difficult of all situations is to occupy a position--under fire--when civilians are in the mix. Everyone is hunkered down, and inevitably Fatima emerges from a basement stairway cradling her baby and screaming and crying. I know that sounds racist and stupid on the face of it, but bear with me. I do not intend even a shred of racism here.

When that situation arises the Iowans immediadely break down. The fresh-scrubbed 20-year-olds are clutching their M4s and ready to jump and run in order to intercept Fatima and rush her to safety.

And that is when a leader has to step in and give the order to hold your position. Consult with another team member. Fire coming from two positions. Get the kid on the SAW to open up on both of those positions at once. Get two or three other riflemen to assist in laying down suppressing fire. While the kid on the SAW does that you clear the Iowan to make that 50 yard run and grab Fatima.


From: Pax Americana | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
kiowa
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posted 13 September 2003 10:13 PM      Profile for kiowa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All of that typically transpires in under 30 seconds. That's the scary part. Snap decisions are no good if you snap yourself.
From: Pax Americana | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 14 September 2003 02:22 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

And that relates to the Israeli decision to expel Arafat in precisely what way...?


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
kiowa
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posted 14 September 2003 02:44 AM      Profile for kiowa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And that relates to the Israeli decision to expel Arafat in precisely what way...?


beluga2:

You don't connect the dots sometimes. If I must weigh in on this question (which believe me--I do not want to), I will only tell you that the IDF is on our side. That is, the "side" which has not sold it's soul to the devil.

Once we get Colin Powell out of the way: stand back. 99.9% of us in the US Army will spin up tommorow in defence of Israel. We uncovered to our horror what Hitler did against the Jews.

I'm sorry I can'y offer more of an olve branch to you Canucks right now. You're not the problem. But you're beyond weakness as a nation. Let your troops in Afghanistan start to report back.


From: Pax Americana | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 14 September 2003 02:26 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel 'considers killing Arafat'

quote:
In an interview with Israel Radio, Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said it was now only a practical question of how to get rid of Mr Arafat.

"His expulsion is an option, his liquidation is another option. It is also possible to confine him to prison-like conditions," Mr Olmert said.


I can think of no better way to strengthen Arafat's position with Palestinians than to keep this shit up. And I'm sure that Sharon and his cabinet are smart enough to figure that out.

Edited to fix quote.

And edited again to add that apparently this writer at Haaretz agrees with me.


Analysis / A dead-end move

quote:
With one decision, the Israeli cabinet succeeded in resurrecting Yasser Arafat, whose importance appeared to be declining both internationally and in the Arab world.

The cabinet's declaration of its intention to deport or kill Arafat raises serious doubts as
to its capability to handle the acute, bloody crisis with the Palestinians adequately.

[ 14 September 2003: Message edited by: Slim ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 14 September 2003 10:52 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kiowa:
[QB]

beluga2:

You don't connect the dots sometimes. If I must weigh in on this question (which believe me--I do not want to), I will only tell you that the IDF is on our side. That is, the "side" which has not sold it's soul to the devil.


Right - because this REALLY IS a collossal Manachean battle of the Forces of Light versus the Forces of Darkness...

What the fuck are they feeding you, man?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 14 September 2003 11:51 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You don't connect the dots sometimes. If I must weigh in on this question (which believe me--I do not want to), I will only tell you that the IDF is on our side. That is, the "side" which has not sold it's soul to the devil.
Holy Crack Pot Bigotry you !@#$% What the hell is that. "Our Side", "Devil". That is a typical neo-con bigoted statement if I ever saw one. You think you are righteous in what way? Shame on you and the American Military, for which it does the most evilist things in modern day to feed the big fat cat. It is people like you that fuels the hate on both sides. Racist!

Selling yourself to the devil, would mean selling yourself to the Bushites.

[ 14 September 2003: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 15 September 2003 12:05 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kiowa:

beluga2:

You don't connect the dots sometimes. If I must weigh in on this question (which believe me--I do not want to), I will only tell you that the IDF is on our side. That is, the "side" which has not sold it's soul to the devil.

Once we get Colin Powell out of the way: stand back. 99.9% of us in the US Army will spin up tommorow in defence of Israel. We uncovered to our horror what Hitler did against the Jews.

I'm sorry I can'y offer more of an olve branch to you Canucks right now. You're not the problem. But you're beyond weakness as a nation. Let your troops in Afghanistan start to report back.


It is unacceptable to imply that the Palestinians have sold their souls to the devil. BTW, this thread should be in the Middle East forum, which is why I'm stepping in here. I'll move the thread right after this post.

Kiowa, you have been disrupting threads with your off-topic, self-absorbed posts for at least a week now. I really do feel for your situation. It sucks that you're going to be shipped off to Iraq. I'm sorry you're going through such a difficult time.

However, babble is not your personal journal or dumping ground. I am going to ask you, first of all, to stay on topic in threads all over babble. If you need a place to release your feelings or psyche yourself up with patriotic ramblings, I would suggest starting an online journal. You can even link to it from your profile on babble - maybe people will be interested and read it.

My second request is that you stay off this particular thread from now on after writing such an offensive post. Your presence in this thread after such a statement is unwelcome. I'll leave it to Audra to take further action if she feels it's necessary.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 15 September 2003 03:26 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel denies that killing Arafat is Israeli policy.

CNN


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 15 September 2003 03:40 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Chrétien has not yet denied that killing Harper is part of Canadian policy.
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Mishei
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posted 16 September 2003 08:28 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An interesting perspective from the always controversial Allan Dershowitz.

Should this man be assasinated?


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josh
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posted 16 September 2003 09:27 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So Dershowitz has gravitated from advocating torture to advocating assasination.

I notice he doesn't advocating murdering Arafat, so the headline is somewhat misleading. Hamas is an obstacle to a just resolution of the dispute, so I wouldn't weap over their deaths. But I am concerned about opening a pandora's box.

Finally, Dershowitz should legally change his first name to "Israel" and his middle name to "Can do no Wrong."


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 September 2003 09:44 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The real point of that piece of writing is to force the parallel between Israel's campaign against Palestinian groups and Bush's War on Terror (aka War on Scary Concept, TM Michelle).

He claims to be making an argument about Hamas, but really, he assumes his own conclusion about them from the outset. The only thing he's arguing is Israel's right to do exactly as the U.S. is doing.

Even there, these are hardly arguments: they are merely forceful repetitions of his own pre-formed convictions.

In other words, he's shouting.

Next.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 16 September 2003 09:51 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The consequences of such a targeted assassination of Arafat would be too horrific to contemplate, for average Palestinians and Israelis alike. There would also be increased risks of attacks on Arab and/or Muslim and Jewish communities throughout the world.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 16 September 2003 10:35 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is Dershowitz yet again commenting on the Or Commission. Yes Josh I know Dershowitz is wrong and you are ALWAYS right A constructive criticism of Israel
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 September 2003 10:59 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We're being SPAMMED by Alan Dershowitz!

As usual, the point here is that Palestinians and Israeli Arabs could be a lot worse off than they are under Israeli domination -- and that is no doubt true.

Not that any decent human being would want to push that point too far, of course.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 16 September 2003 11:17 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dershowitz is talking, not about Arafat, but about the leaders of Hamas. In that specific case, he says there is no distinction between the political and military leadership of Hamas, and that therefore, everybody can be killed, even in their beds, asleep.

quote:
As to the first question, there can be absolutely no doubt of the legality of Israel's policy of targeting Hamas leaders for assassination. Hamas has declared war against Israel. All of its leaders are combatants, whether they wear military uniforms, suits or religious garb. There is no realistic distinction between the political and military wings of Hamas,

I do not know enough about Hamas to comment about the level of distinction between its political and military leaders. But I wonder whether that is a safe way of justifying killings. What, for example, is the level of distinction between Commander-in-Chief George Bush, and the higher generals in the US military?

There has generally been a policy to avoid killing the political leadership of a belligerent on the grounds that those people are not combattants. Maybe it's a bit of an imaginary line, but I think it is one which it is useful to retain.

In wars, the combattents are always trying to come up with reasons why the various international instruments do not apply because of the particularly nefarious qualities of the enemy. In general, we should oppose that sort of special pleading, and insist on the international norms as helping all to maintain their humanity.

[ 16 September 2003: Message edited by: jeff house ]


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 September 2003 11:42 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uri (not Shlomo) Avnery on "Assassinating Arafat."

click


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 16 September 2003 11:43 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Yes Josh I know Dershowitz is wrong and you are ALWAYS right


I agree! At least when it comes to Israel.

[ 16 September 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 16 September 2003 03:23 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:

I agree! At least when it comes to Israel.

[ 16 September 2003: Message edited by: josh ]



mmmmmmmm

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 16 September 2003 04:36 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Here is Dershowitz yet again commenting on the Or Commission. Yes Josh I know Dershowitz is wrong and you are ALWAYS right A constructive criticism of Israel

Mishei, you know that's not a reputable source
quote:
They see that Israeli-Arabs are often treated as second-class Israeli citizens, without also seeing that the average Israeli-Arab is treated far better by the Israeli government than the average non-Israeli-Arab is treated by Arab and Islamic government
This is irrelevant and a drive-by-smear job. What is a non-Israeli? For the record, I'm non Israeli! Perhaps resident Jews such as Syrian, Jordianian or Iranian Jews are not treated so well in their homelands since the brutality of Israel has arrived on the Palestinians door-step. However before Israel was forced on the Palestinians, Jews were treated fairly and equally. Frankly, this is just typically National Post hyperbole from Izzy Aspers bigoted points of view!

The way Jews are mistreated in other countries should not be an excuse for the racial State of Israel to treat Arabs as second class citizens.

quote:
In making comparative criticism, it must also be remembered why Israel has more than a million Arab citizens, while Jordan does not have a single Jewish citizen, and Egypt, Iraq and other Arab nations which had large Jewish populations for millennia, now are essentially Judenrein.
Not a single Jew? This is why I must condem the National Post of Israel!!!!!!!!! Because that's bullshit and you know it Mishei. Prove it and prove the next quote
quote:
The majority of Arabs who lived in what became Israel after the UN partition of 1947 remained in Israel
Majority? Or selective majority? The terrorist forefathers of Israel had a preference for Christian & Jewish Palestinians. Also I'd like to point out that the "majority" of Arabs that remained were Jewsih Arabs. You can clearly see the National Post's biasness in there "Destructive Deceptions"
quote:
Arab and Palestinian armed forces systematically murdered the Jewish residents of captured towns after they had surrendered.
1967 Right? Wasn't it Israel who attacked first?

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 September 2003 05:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hyperbole and factual errors aside, "Judenrein"????

This is obviously a European term, used to describe a European phenomenon. The blatant insinuation that Arabs are Nazis is more than a little offensive.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 16 September 2003 06:25 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
1967 Right? Wasn't it Israel who attacked first?
You are being too cute by half. Read Micheal Oren's book applauded by all on both sides as the definitive history of the 6 day war. Then you will see who started the hostilities and the resons Israel took justifiable actions. This book has been discussed even here on babble so search out the threads.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 September 2003 06:54 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Arab and Palestinian armed forces systematically murdered the Jewish residents of captured towns after they had surrendered.

Never heard that one. Mishei can likely provide details.

No mention of Deir Yassin etc. etc. etc.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 17 September 2003 08:09 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Never heard that one. Mishei can likely provide details.

No mention of Deir Yassin etc. etc. etc.



Read Oren's book. Your selective detailing of ttragedies does nothing to answer your question.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 September 2003 12:32 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't have a question. I did, however, provide an example of a massacre, something that neither you nor Dershowitz did.

Your telling me to read Oren's book is a broad, meaningless insinuation that he does mention such massacres, without your having to give any examples yourself.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 17 September 2003 12:46 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So do you agree or disagree, Mishei, with Dershowitz, when he says: "All of its (Hamas) leaders are combatants, whether they wear military uniforms, suits or religious garb. There is no realistic distinction between the political and military wings of Hamas"?

And if so, is the same true of the Israeli hieracrchy? Is Sharon a combatant? Is targetting him, in what Dershowitz refers to as a war, legitimate?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 17 September 2003 05:05 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
An interesting perspective from the always controversial Allan Dershowitz.

Should this man be assasinated?


'Controversial'? Dershowitz-as-ethicist is an utter fraud. The very act of entertaining the thought of torture for raisons d'etat showed him to be depraved. His conclusion that it could be justified was icing on the cake.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 17 September 2003 05:13 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
So do you agree or disagree, Mishei, with Dershowitz, when he says: "All of its (Hamas) leaders are combatants, whether they wear military uniforms, suits or religious garb. There is no realistic distinction between the political and military wings of Hamas"?

And if so, is the same true of the Israeli hieracrchy? Is Sharon a combatant? Is targetting him, in what Dershowitz refers to as a war, legitimate?



I must admit to having some trouble with labeling a propagandist and religious leader as a "combatant".

However the fact that both these people encourage young Muslim men and women to murder innocent Israelis in resteraunts and cafes surely puts them in a category where their actions can be viewed as war-like. It is a conundrum I am struggling with.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 17 September 2003 05:48 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

I must admit to having some trouble with labeling a propagandist and religious leader as a "combatant".

However the fact that both these people encourage young Muslim men and women to murder innocent Israelis in resteraunts and cafes surely puts them in a category where their actions can be viewed as war-like. It is a conundrum I am struggling with.


How ideologically invested does someone have to be in order to become a target? Since most Israeli men and women have been in the military at some point in their lives (and thus are complicit in the occupation - including encouraging Israelis to kill Palestinians) would they not be legitimate targets with this kind of reasoning? And as someone else pointed out, what of Sharon, of Rabbi Ovidia Yosef, of Moshe "The Palestinians are a Cancerous Growth" Y'allon? What of Dershowitz himself? By advocating and promoting the murder of others based on their political convictions and their acts in support of a certain political cause is he not becoming just what he is arguing Hamas are; essentially an ideological and political combatant? Is Dershowitz willing to accept this catogorisation? I suspect not, he's shown himself utterly blind to the depravity and stupidity of his arguments in the torture case, why should we think he could be more perspecacious here?

In fact, this is a big part of the conflict - specifically the control of the discussion of the lines between combattant and civilian. Israel's claim is that because Palestinian attacks target non-combatants that they are heinous and terrible. However, Israel has consistently tried to demonstrate that Palestinian children with rocks, demonstrators, ideological leaders and other Palestinian political figures are not exempt from combattant status. In this way they have tried to minimise the great number of deaths sufferred on the Palestinian side.

[ 17 September 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 17 September 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 17 September 2003 05:57 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

How ideologically invested does someone have to be in order to become a target? Since most Israeli men and women have been in the military at some point in their lives (and thus are complicit in the occupation - i.e. encouraging Israelis to kill Palestinians) would they not be legitimate target under this kind of reasoning?


The IDF "encourages" Israelis to murder Palestinians? This is utter nonsense.

BTW Im sure you will agree that Israeli and Palestinian babies are not combatants or will they both grow up to be either members of the IDF or potential suicide bombers so everyone is a combabtant. It is a real conundrum as I said.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 17 September 2003 06:01 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
[QB]The IDF "encourages" Israelis to murder Palestinians? This is utter nonsense.

Interesting that you switched 'kill' for the more loaded 'murder'... but since we are on the subject:

I guess all those dead Palestinians died by accident. All the 'collataral damage' is just a series of 'unfortunate accidents' made up for by 'the best of intentions' and the supposed 'purity of arms' which are currently 'under investigation by the IDF' and taken 'in response' to Hamas attacks? Talk about nonsense, Mishei. Actually, that's the Israeli Ministry of Propaga...err...Information's party line. Not suprising to see you will tout it yet again...

If I toss a grenade into the front room of a house trying to kill someone in that room and the resulting fire engulfs the house, and the one next door and kills more people, I am responsible for all their deaths.


Firing a hellfire missile into a civilian neighbourhood (this happens regularly) is an act of incredible negligence, and in my opinion, murder. Shooting children for throwing stones at tanks or at soldiers is murder. Blowing up cars in crowded urban centres and killing people who happen to be travelling with others who may or may not be guilty of any crime is, in my opinion, murder.

This doesn't even begin to address the bevy of morally bereft activities of the IDF up to and including the killing of civilians.

[ 17 September 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 17 September 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 September 2003 07:04 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Golly, that IS a conundrum!
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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