babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics

Topic Closed  Topic Closed


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Two state solution is dead; long live the one state solution

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Two state solution is dead; long live the one state solution
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 13 September 2003 02:34 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
PM Sharon ´s Confidante: PA State - Not in this Generation
10:42 Sep 11, '03 / 14 Elul 5763

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has changed his mind about the establishment of a Palestinian state. At least so writes his good friend and confidante, journalist Uri Dan.

After returning from the official visit to India with Sharon early this morning, Dan wrote in Maariv today that he has the impression that "in India, the State of Palestine was buried" (based on Theodore Herzl's statement, "In Basel [at the First Zionist Congress], I established the Jewish State").

In light of the recent wave of Palestinian Arab terrorism, Dan writes, "The Palestinian leadership will not get to see a Palestinian state - at least not in this generation. The chance that they were given has expired." Dan, who has never been known to criticize a position taken by Sharon, wrote that the events of the past few days have convinced the Prime Minister that the PA must "disappear from the map."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=49582


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 September 2003 02:42 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wouldn't take as gospel anything that Dan writes about Sharon.

If this were accurate you would hear it from Sharon who is no shrinking violet on these matters. So for now unless coroborated by Sharon, I will take it as more ongoing propaganda in the nedless war of words that some feel are necessary to ratchet up the tension.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 13 September 2003 02:56 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon has never intended to agree to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, and he never will. If true, this is no surprise.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 September 2003 08:37 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
Sharon has never intended to agree to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, and he never will. If true, this is no surprise.

And of course you know this with certainty

Indeed I would say (using your argumentation) that Arafat always wanted to destroy Israel and his rhetoric asisde still holds to this.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 September 2003 08:39 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BTW, IMHO, this thread title crosses the line. It has been my contention that those advocating the destruction of the world's only Jewish state engage in anti Jewish rhetoric. That is simply how I feel.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 13 September 2003 09:40 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The word "destruction" is your term, and is a loaded one. It implies mass murder. Working out a one-state solution in no way requires that. In fact, as I have pointed out before, a one-state solution would permit Jews to live freely in "Judea and Samaria," whereas a two-state solution will in all likelihood mean minimal Jewish presence on this land.

As for your reference to Arafat, he signed peace agreements in 1993 and 1998. Sharon has never signed a peace agreement. And there is no evidence whatsoever that he has ever been prepared to agree to a truly independent Palestinian state.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 September 2003 09:57 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:

As for your reference to Arafat, he signed peace agreements in 1993 and 1998. Sharon has never signed a peace agreement. And there is no evidence whatsoever that he has ever been prepared to agree to a truly independent Palestinian state.

LOL ROFL LOL, Arafat's signing a peace treaty is the world's oldest joke. Arafat has never met a peace treaty he could not break.
Sharon, on the other hand, is bound by whatever treaties were accepted by previous administrations. It is called being a democracy, yet another thing that Arafat knows nothing about.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 13 September 2003 10:04 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh, I'm so glad you said that, because I disagreed with Mishei, but at the same time the idea of "destruction" of the Jewish People, after the Holocaust is so horrific. I'm thinking of a particular lady I know in Israel - no fan of Sharon's policies, on the contrary! - who escaped the Shoah and is very old now.

I think there is a lot of confusion between state and people. Wanting to supercede the concept of a Jewish State is not necessarily akin to wanting to murder Jewish people.

I can understand the Israeli desire for Israel as a State, though, because it has forged a language (modern Hebrew) and a culture through the fusion of other Jewish cultures. Nothing to do with spurious Biblical claims. But it must not come at the expense of the culture and livelihood of the Palestinian people, and their own desire for sovereignty.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 13 September 2003 10:14 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
LOL ROFL LOL, Arafat's signing a peace treaty is the world's oldest joke. Arafat has never met a peace treaty he could not break.
Sharon, on the other hand, is bound by whatever treaties were accepted by previous administrations. It is called being a democracy, yet another thing that Arafat knows nothing about.

Sharon bound by previous treaties? Talk about ROFL. As for the rest of my response, you can consult the Oslo thread I just started.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 13 September 2003 10:20 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I'm only posting this because I've yet to see this expressed anywhere. I was born in 1962...I swear that since the time I gained consciousness until today, Isreal and Palestine have been in the news. Every day, every political discussion, Israel and Palestine. Personally, I don't care about Israel and Palestine anymore. I don't think any of us who doesn't live there has any real understanding about what exactly is going on, yet we infuse this tiresome debate with our own prejudices and incomplete information. The only thing I cling to is what I learned in 2000. I went to Israel in August, just before the present situation got worse, and was on a tour of the PA. The tour guide pointed out that the PA was building casinos with international development money, which was highly criticised by the Israelis, but he also stated that the Israelis were the casinos' biggest customers. At that point, I thought to myself: "you're all going to hell". And that was when I stopped caring about Israel and Palestine.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 13 September 2003 11:04 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BTW, IMHO, this thread title crosses the line. It has been my contention that those advocating the destruction of the world's only Jewish state engage in anti Jewish rhetoric. That is simply how I feel.

Thatis a racist contention. It assumes one cannot advocate a single state without holding some stereotypical views ascribed by a person with deep seated prejudices and further would limit discussion to only a single perspective with all others proscribed by a racialist dictum.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 14 September 2003 12:17 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
BTW, IMHO, this thread title crosses the line. It has been my contention that those advocating the destruction of the world's only Jewish state engage in anti Jewish rhetoric. That is simply how I feel.

Oh, for pete's sake. Do you ever quit going round the bend, off the cliff, and accelerating on your way down?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 14 September 2003 03:53 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder.

Is Mish a Likud mole, planted in babble to monitor the Left?

Or is he here to disarm the left, by making us underestimate the seriousness of his Likudnik position by his clownish behaviour?

I dunno, this is just what I feel.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 14 September 2003 08:26 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How the wall may hasten the one-state solution. The law of unintended consequences:

Rather than create the outlines of a two-state solution, this wall will kill that idea for Palestinians, and drive them, over time, to demand instead a one-state solution — where they and the Jews would have equal rights in one state. And since by 2010 there will be more Palestinian Arabs than Jews living in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza combined, this transformation of the Palestinian cause will be very problematic for Israel. If American Jews think it's hard to defend Israel today on college campuses, imagine what it will be like when their kids have to argue against the principle of one man, one vote.

Why is this happening? First, because the fence is not being built on the 1967 border. It is being built on Palestinian land across the border, inside the West Bank. And since the fence is really a strip — up to 100 yards wide — of razor wire, trenches, sensors and cameras, more slices of Palestinian land are being confiscated to build it and farmers are being separated from their fields.

"If the Israelis want to build the wall on the 1967 Green Line — no problem, they could build it 100 meters high," said Nidal Jaloud, spokesman for the West Bank Palestinian border town of Qalqilya, where Israel put a 24-foot-high wall after five suicide bombers came out of there. "But it is not being built on the Green Line — it is built on our lands."

. . . .

If the Israelis were building a fence around the West Bank, and then removing all the checkpoints inside, it would make great sense. But they can't, because the West Bank Jewish settlements also have to be protected — hence the fences and checkpoints all over the place, which are choking commerce and creating cages that will become factories of despair. As Palestinians find themselves isolated in pockets next to Jewish settlers — who have the rule of law, the right to vote, welfare, jobs, etc. — and as hope for a contiguous Palestinian state fades, it's inevitable that many of them will throw in the towel and ask for the right to vote in Israel.

Khalil Shikaki, a Palestinian pollster, has already found 25 to 30 percent of Palestinians now supporting this idea — a stunning figure, considering it's never been proposed by any Palestinian or Israeli party.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/14/opinion/14FRIE.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 September 2003 08:46 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Thatis a racist contention. It assumes one cannot advocate a single state without holding some stereotypical views ascribed by a person with deep seated prejudices and further would limit discussion to only a single perspective with all others proscribed by a racialist dictum.

Really? A very novel understanding of racism Wingy. And who am I being racist against...a few Babblers? Those on the fringes of the left and the right who demand the dissolution (read destruction) of the world's only Jewish state?

I never realized being a babbler now makes you part of a racial group or being on the political fringe also puts you in this category. Live and learn.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 September 2003 08:47 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, Mishei is not a mole for Likud, and this thread title is not "crossing the line" whatever that's supposed to mean. How about we stop that potential flame war in its tracks and continue to argue the merits of either the two-state or one-state solution. Thanks.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 14 September 2003 09:41 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um, gee: I thought the thread title was a pretty direct summary of Dan's version of Sharon's current thinking, as reported in the opening link -- ie, there will not be two states (at least in this generation) because Sharon has decided there will be no Palestinian state and plans to proceed with simply pacifying the OT.

I recognize that others have a more progressive interpretation of the expression "one-state solution," and Mishei has a paranoid interpretation of it, but the thread title refers to neither of those -- it is a simple summary reference to the opening link.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 September 2003 01:32 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
BTW, IMHO, this thread title crosses the line. It has been my contention that those advocating the destruction of the world's only Jewish state engage in anti Jewish rhetoric. That is simply how I feel.

Here we go 'round the mulberry bush...the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 September 2003 02:30 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Um, gee: I thought the thread title was a pretty direct summary of Dan's version of Sharon's current thinking, as reported in the opening link -- ie, there will not be two states (at least in this generation) because Sharon has decided there will be no Palestinian state and plans to proceed with simply pacifying the OT.

I recognize that others have a more progressive interpretation of the expression "one-state solution," and Mishei has a paranoid interpretation of it, but the thread title refers to neither of those -- it is a simple summary reference to the opening link.


Im paranoid and you are progressive..by your standards only.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 14 September 2003 02:42 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But you refuse the OBVIOUS, neutral reading of the thread title.

It is neither progressive nor paranoid. It is a literal summary of the content of the opening link.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 September 2003 03:20 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
But you refuse the OBVIOUS, neutral reading of the thread title.

It is neither progressive nor paranoid. It is a literal summary of the content of the opening link.


I accept that. Doesnt mean I have to like it.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 14 September 2003 03:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is Ariel Sharon's view (according to whazzizname).

At least make clear that your discomfort on this thread, with regard to the thread title, at least, is with Sharon -- nobody else.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 September 2003 04:16 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
It is Ariel Sharon's view (according to whazzizname).

At least make clear that your discomfort on this thread, with regard to the thread title, at least, is with Sharon -- nobody else.


That's just the point Skdadl, its Sharon's view according to "whazzizname".

Until Sharon says it I dont accept it was said. He is on record as supporting a two-state solution. There are those both within Israel and the PA who would prefer their version of a "one-state" solution. These extremists were unwelcome by the vast majority of Israelis (though I am not sure if the same can be said about the vast majaority of Palestinians. I hope Im wrong here) including the present government. Both views from both extremes is bigotry as far as I am concerned.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 14 September 2003 04:24 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 September 2003 05:58 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
That's just the point Skdadl, its Sharon's view according to "whazzizname".

Until Sharon says it I dont accept it was said. He is on record as supporting a two-state solution. There are those both within Israel and the PA who would prefer their version of a "one-state" solution. These extremists......


It is instructive that you describe a secular democratic state as an 'extremist' solution...


quote:
Both views from both extremes is bigotry as far as I am concerned.

How is it bigotry to suggest that Arabs and Jews could live together in a secular Israeli state that guaranteed the rights of everyone equally? Moreover, given that the other option seems to be to discriminate against a massive population on the territory Israel controls, how is a secular state a worse solution?

I guess it's arithmatic for you - Discrimination FOR Jews is okay, discrimination AGAINST Jews is not...

Please explain.

[ 14 September 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 14 September 2003 06:06 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, not okay.
Israel is the primary proponent of a two state solution. They support the solution because deomographics show they will become a minority in a single state. Fair enough. White suprmacists argue the same thing, but I will assume Israel has a more hounourable case.

To be fair also, I have believed in a two state solution. Until now.

The truth of the matter is that Israel speaks of a two state solution but practises something very different. They have increased settlememnts and setlletment activity. Not decreased. Any effort to remove such settlements has been purley cosmetic and meaningless. Israel is building the wall which eats into West Bank land. Israel wants control of underground resources (water) and all issues of security. Israel has systematically smashed smashed the institutions and infrastructure upon which any Palestinian government would rely. So any Palestinian state would be not be so much a state as pseudo-state where the citizens are second class in their own land to foreigners in another land.

In the end, a Palestinian state, sanctioned by Israel, would be a patch work of Bantus without any viabilty as a real state ghettoized by walls and armed settler camps.

This is no solution.

If Israel will not allow a viable and complete Palestinian state with full rights over security and control over natural resources and an equal partner, then all people who truly believe in democracy and human rights must demand from Israel a single, pluralistic state with guarmatees of equal rights for all citizens.

Tell me where I am wrong Mishei. And please doon't tell me how it shoud be. Let's deal with how it is.

Further you said to Josh "Sharon, on the other hand, is bound by whatever treaties were accepted by previous administrations." You know that is an out-and-out lie. I have quoted it here before and you have read i8t where Sharon made it quite clear ,during the first, that he would not honour any agreement signed by Barak's, and that is Israel's negotiators.

From Oslo to now, mishei, Israel has faqiled to live up to any obligations signed under any agreement unless prodded and threatened by their sponsor, the United States.

At any time any government could have demonstarted a commitment to the two state solutionj by freezing all settlement activity declatring the land "P)alestinian." But instead they have poured money,l people and military into expanding the campls revealing their true intentions.

You can try and hold on to the lie. I can't any longer. The only solution is a one state solution based upon the federalist model.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 September 2003 06:33 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Come on Wingy you know that the PA is no lilly white kitten when it comes to honouring Oslo either.

I beleive that the Israeli people want a two-state solution. I believe that it is viable. There can be no other solution because Israel and the vast majority of Jews will not support the dissolution/destruction of Israel. It will never happen.

So we have to continue working towards peace. Yes there are many issues and seemingly insurmountable problems but we have no choice but to carry on. The Palestinian people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect They deserve a sovereign state. The Jewish people deserve a Jewish state. Neither deserves the misery of terrorism and its tragic repercussions. There must be a way. Let's not give up.

Edited to add: This analysis of Oslo from a progressive Israeli perspective is worth rreading;

Oslo

[ 14 September 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 September 2003 06:56 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
[QB]Come on Wingy you know that the PA is no lilly white kitten when it comes to honouring Oslo either.

I beleive that the Israeli people want a two-state solution. I believe that it is viable. There can be no other solution because Israel and the vast majority of Jews will not support the dissolution/destruction of Israel. It will never happen.


Again, you fail to give adequate reasoning for how a secular democracy will 'destroy' Israel or Jewishness. Largely because what you are engaging in here is the definition of 'Judaism/Jewishness' as an ideology and identity which cannot exist without an ethnocratic state, or be protected as part of a secular democratic state. Amazingly, the lie is put to this theory in your personal existence as a free, protected member of Canadian society which neither quashes your identity nor elevates it to a privileged political position. This arrangement has generated one of the most vibrant Jewish communities in the world - all without the necessity of being the privileged figure in any ethnopolitics.


quote:
The Palestinian people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect They deserve a sovereign state. The Jewish people deserve a Jewish state.

Yes, the Palestinians do deserve this - right up to and including the right of return to the homes from which they were removed in 1948. Why is Israel's claim - based on a rough history - more salient than the immediate claim of those made into refugees by the act of creating Israel itself? Why are Jewish rights of return MORE sacrosanct that Arab rights of return?

Why is a 'Jewish State' necessary when the success of multinational, transnational, and other non-ethnic political markers has been demonstrated in various places - Canada, the EU, the United States, and so on. Moreover, even if it is, why must we accept your narrowminded vision of Judaism as an ethnicity which could not have equal currency in a secular, non-ethnocentric state apparatus? To me, all you are really doing is positing the inseperability of 'a people' and their ethno-state - a classic 19th century idealist nationalist model -- which forms the backbone of fascism -- still in play in, for instance, the politics of Le Pen, the Flems Blok, and various other right-wing nationalist parties that are openly criticised for their ethnopolitics.

The discourse of defining 'a Jew' as one who is intrinsically tied to an ethnostate (Israel) and who cannot possibly accept the existence of a plurality of non-Jews in its midst without being 'destroyed' is the ideological twin of Le Pen's discourse defining 'Frenchmen' as against various immigrants, deviants, Jews, etc.

Why mirror that which has been so disastrous elsewhere?

[ 14 September 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 14 September 2003 08:33 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excellent posts Wingnut and Courage. The longer things go on as they are, the less likely that the two-state solution will be viable. Either the Israelis and the Palestinians will learn to live together as equals, or there will be a bloodbath.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 11 October 2003 10:48 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"The time has come to think the unthinkable. The two-state solution — the core of the Oslo process and the road map — is probably already doomed. With every passing year we are postponing an inevitable, harder choice that only the far right and far left have acknowledged. Today, the Middle East peace process is finished. It did not die: It was killed. And the true alternative facing the region is between an ethnically cleansed Greater Israel and a single, integrated, binational state of Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1010-04.htm


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 11 October 2003 11:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
"The time has come to think the unthinkable. The two-state solution — the core of the Oslo process and the road map — is probably already doomed. With every passing year we are postponing an inevitable, harder choice that only the far right and far left have acknowledged. Today, the Middle East peace process is finished. It did not die: It was killed. And the true alternative facing the region is between an ethnically cleansed Greater Israel and a single, integrated, binational state of Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1010-04.htm



Anyone who denies the right of Israel to exist legitimatly as a Jewish state is engaging in the 21st century's new form of antisemitism.

Antisemitism is like a virus ever mutating to adapt to new circumstances. Today it has become the fashionable "let us get rid of the Jewish state" instead of "let us get rid of the Jews".

I know everyone here gets apoplexy whenever I post this but many Jews from, yes, the left (ie Michael Lerner, Michele Landsberg, Steven Lewis , Jeff Rose, Phil Berger, Todd Gitlin to name but a few) the centre and the right feel this way. Deny their feelings all you want and find the odd Quisling Jew who will go along with this antisemitic concept but that is what it is.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830

posted 12 October 2003 12:22 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Anyone who denies the right of Palestine to exist legitimatly as a state is engaging in the 21st century's new form of Zionism.

Zionism is like a virus ever mutating to adapt to new circumstances. Today it has become the fashionable "let us get rid of the Palestinians" instead of "let us get rid of the Arabs".
From a different angle

[ 12 October 2003: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3461

posted 12 October 2003 12:35 AM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I provide quotes only. They sufficiently do the talking of a single "secular, democratic" state:


Myths & Facts Online
Arab/Muslim Attitudes Toward Israel
By Mitchell G. Bard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The desire for peaceful relations between Jews and Arabs sometimes leads people to overlook public comments by Arab officials and media publications that are often incendiary and sometimes outright anti-Semitic. Frequently, more moderate tones are adopted when speaking to Western audiences, but more accurate and heartfelt views are expressed in Arabic to the speaker's constituents. The following is just a tiny sample of some of the remarks that have been made regarding Israel and the Jews. They are included here because they demonstrate the level of hostility and true beliefs of many Arabs and Muslims. Of course, not all Arabs and Muslims subscribe to these views, but the examples are not random, they are beliefs held by important officials and disseminated by major media. They are also included because one of the lessons of the Holocaust was that people of good will are often unwilling to believe that people who threaten evil will in fact carry out their malevolent intentions.

Anti-Semitism
Blood Libel
Fabrications of Abuses
Holocaust Denial
Peace
Phased Plan & the Destruction of Israel
Sanctioning Violence


Anti-Semitism
“They [the Jews] try to kill the principle of religions with the same mentality that they betrayed Jesus Christ and the same way they tried to betray and kill the Prophet Mohammed.”

— Syrian President Bashar Assad at May 5 welcoming ceremony for the Pope
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, May 6, 2001


“It is not a mistake that the Koran warns us of the hatred of the Jews and put them at the top of the list of the enemies of Islam. Today the Jews recruit the world against the Muslims and use all kinds of weapons. They are plundering the dearest place to the Muslims, after Mecca and Medina and threaten the place the Muslims have faced at first when they prayed and the third holiest city after Mecca and Medina. They want to erect their temple on that place....The Muslims are ready to sacrifice their lives and blood to protect the Islamic nature of Jerusalem and al-Aksa!”

— Sheikh Hian Al-Adrisi,
Excerpt of address in the al-Aksa mosque, September 29, 2000

“The Jews are Jews, whether Labour or Likud, the Jews are Jews. They do not have any moderates or any advocates of peace. They are all liars. They are the ones who must be butchered and killed. As Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them.' Allah will torture them by your hands and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them, and will relieve the minds of the believers. ... Our people must unite in one trench, and receive armaments from the Palestinian leadership to confront the Jews. ... Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Whenever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them — and those who stand with them — they are all in one trench, against the Arabs and the Muslims — because they established Israel here, in the beating heart of the Arab world, in Palestine. They created it in order that it be the outpost of their civilization — and the vanguard of their army, and to be the sword of the West and the Crusaders, hanging over the necks of the Muslim monotheists, the Muslims in this land. They wanted the Jews to be the spearhead for them...”

— Dr Ahmad Abu-Halabia, a member of the "Fatwa Council"
appointed by the Palestinian Authority and the
former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza,
delivered in the Zayd bin Sultan Nahyan mosque in Gaza
on October 13, 2000, the day after the lynching of the Israeli
reservists in Ramallah, and carried live on Palestinian television

“Thanks to Hitler, blessed memory, who on behalf of the Palestinians, revenged in advance, against the most vile criminals on the face of the earth. Although we do have a complaint against him for his revenge on them was not enough.”

— Columnist Ahmad Ragab
Al-Akhbar (Egypt), April 18, 2001

“All weapons must be aimed at the Jews, at the enemies of Allah...whom the Koran describes as monkeys and pigs, worshippers of the calf and idol worshippers. Allah shall make the Moslem rule over the Jew, we will blow them up in Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel Aviv and in Netanya in the righteousness of Allah against this rif-raff.....We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, and Jaffa as conquerors, and Haifa as conquerors and Ashkelon as conquerors...we bless all those who educate their children to jihad and to Martyrdom, blessing be he who shot a bullet into the head of a Jew.”

— Sermon broadcast on Palestinian Authority television, August 3, 2001

“All signs unequivocally prove that the conflict between the Jews and the Muslims is an eternal on-going conflict, even if it stops for short intervals.... This conflict resembles the conflict between man and Satan.... This is the fate of the Muslim nation, and beyond that the fate of all the nations of the world, to be tormented by this nation [the Jews]. The fate of the Palestinian people is to struggle against the Jews on behalf of the Arab peoples, the Islamic peoples and the peoples of the entire worlds.”

— Al-Hayat Al-Jadeeda quoted in The New Republic Online, October 30, 2001

“O God, the Jews have transgressed all limits in their tyranny. O God, shake the ground under their feet, pour torture on them, and destroy all of them.”

— Sheikh Abd-al-Bari al-Thubayt, June 7, 2002, sermon at the Holy Mosque of Medina, broadcast on official Saudi television

“The Jewish nation, it is known, from the dawn of history, from the time Allah created them, lives by scheme and deceit.”

— PA Communications Minister, Imud Falouji
Palestinian television, August 8, 2002

“We know that the Jews have manipulated the Sept. 11 incidents and turned American public opinion against Arabs and Muslims....We still ask ourselves: Who has benefited from Sept. 11 attacks? I think they (the Jews) were the protagonists of such attacks.”

— Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef in Assyasah (Kuwait)
translation from Saudi magazine 'Ain-Al-Yaqin, November 29, 2002


From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 12 October 2003 09:57 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Anyone who denies the right of Israel to exist legitimatly as a Jewish state is engaging in the 21st century's new form of antisemitism.

Antisemitism is like a virus ever mutating to adapt to new circumstances. Today it has become the fashionable "let us get rid of the Jewish state" instead of "let us get rid of the Jews".

I know everyone here gets apoplexy whenever I post this but many Jews from, yes, the left (ie Michael Lerner, Michele Landsberg, Steven Lewis , Jeff Rose, Phil Berger, Todd Gitlin to name but a few) the centre and the right feel this way. Deny their feelings all you want and find the odd Quisling Jew who will go along with this antisemitic concept but that is what it is.


Of all the things you've ever posted, this is the most despicable. But, unlike you, I won't go crying to someone to complain. To call people who question a state based on religion, whether based on secular, democratic, moral or religious grounds, is beyond the pale. These people are not saying that Jews do not have a right to live in the land that is now Israel/Palestine. In fact, I am one who has argued that Jews should have the right to live anywhere in what is now the west bank. But there are people who believe that a "Jewish state" is discriminatory in both theory and practice, that the whole concept of a religious state is abhorent, and that it poisons relations between Jews and Arabs and Muslims.

These people are neither "anti-semetic" nor "Quislings." Rather, they are people who do not follow the "party line," but think for themselves. Beyond that, many are seeking to uphold the moral principles of Judaism, which Israel and its supporters have turned a blind eye to on so many occasions. And those who remain silent in the face of injustice, just because it is committed by Israel, have no business calling any other Jew "anti-semitic."

[ 12 October 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 12 October 2003 10:06 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh, I am not surprised that you find my position on today's antisemitism not to your liking. However that is what I many others from scholars to opinion makers believe. Complain to who you want or scream till you turn blue but in the post-Shoah era, IMHO, to advocate the dismantling of the only Jewish state in the world is to engage in 21st century antisemitism.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 October 2003 10:13 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He hasn't complained to anyone, Mishei (which is why I'm writing this as a ME forum poster, not as moderator). But I think you're being disingenuous - I think you know that it was likely your roundabout way of implying that he is a "Quisling Jew" that pissed him off, not your "position on today's antisemitism".
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 12 October 2003 10:19 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
He hasn't complained to anyone, Mishei (which is why I'm writing this as a ME forum poster, not as moderator). But I think you're being disingenuous - I think you know that it was likely your roundabout way of implying that he is a "Quisling Jew" that pissed him off, not your "position on today's antisemitism".

Michelle, frankly Josh is free to interpret my position in any way he wants. Usually when I take this position on what I believe is the 21st century's new antisemitism (and it is not the first time) I will get some here who will post using their "Jewishness" as a defence against it. I know that the "Quisling" statement may be hurtful but many Jews are hurt much more by those Jews and non-Jews who demand the destruction or dissolution of a Jewish state.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 12 October 2003 10:22 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peacefulnotion,

I can point you to just as many unsavory comments by Israelis towards Arabs in general, and Palestinians in particular. Including ones made by the present Israeli government, such as the statement Mr. Lieberman made the other day.

There are extremists on both sides. Thus, it is not surprising that the conflict has brought forth such comments.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 12 October 2003 10:28 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Former Shin Beit Director Ami Ayalon and Palestinian moderate and intellectual Sari Nusseibah have been attempting the impossible, a peaceful resolution to the Israeli/Palestinian issue.

Here is their position which I believe offers us some hope.

IMHO any here who reject this outright is more interested in promoting conflict than peace. What say you?

The Peoples' Voice


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 October 2003 10:32 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Michelle, frankly Josh is free to interpret my position in any way he wants. Usually when I take this position on what I believe is the 21st century's new antisemitism (and it is not the first time) I will get some here who will post using their "Jewishness" as a defence against it. I know that the "Quisling" statement may be hurtful but many Jews are hurt much more by those Jews and non-Jews who demand the destruction or dissolution of a Jewish state.

What a load. So you're saying that josh is using his "Jewishness" as a defence against being antisemitic? Give me a break. It's not as if you don't use your "Jewishness" in this debate - are you only allowed to self-identify as Jewish in the context of this debate if you're on YOUR side of the debate? From what I have seen, while it is generally "known" on babble that josh is Jewish, he doesn't go around invoking it in every other post as "some others" on babble do.

I'm surprised at you, Mishei - both you and josh have been posting on babble for well over a year, and you've managed to restrain yourself from getting out the "self-hating Jew" club and batting him over the head with it just because he has a different position on Israel than you do. If you're going to start calling people who disagree with you on the political structure of Israel "antisemitic" then you'd better expect lots of people on here to be pissed off with you.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 12 October 2003 10:34 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am not against it per se. But as many of the articles in this thread and others have pointed out, as time goes in it is going to be more difficult to achieve a two-state solution. And there are practical problems with such a solution, such as dismantling the settlements, and the Palestinian refugees.

I suggest you not take it up with me, but with Mr. Sharon and his ilk, who have refused to negotiate and use every opportunity to exacerbate the conflict. Just this week he took the opportunity to call talks between Belin and Rabbo treasonous.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 12 October 2003 11:13 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei sinks to new lows when he calls josh a "quisling Jew", or calls non-Jews antisemites, simply for taking a separate position from that advocated by the Israeli government. At the point where he resorts to such tactics, it simply means that he can think of no rational arguments, and must resort to name-calling and baiting to try to win the argument. It's probably best for the other people in affected threads to go on talking as if Mishei were not present when he resorts to this ploy. Otherwise, the discussion will end and we'll start going off on the "I'm not beyond the pale: you're beyond the pale" tack. Many an informative and thoughtful thread have been destroyed using this tactic, and it's time that thoughtful posters stopped falling for it.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 12 October 2003 11:51 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
find the odd Quisling Jew who will go along with this antisemitic concept but that is what it is.

Forgive me: I come late to this discussion, and have only just backtracked to find the original, quoted above.

To me, that statement is a violation of babble policy. To imply that any Jewish poster to babble who is critical of current Israeli policy is a "Quisling" is, on the surface of it, racist and abusive.

josh doesn't need any other defence. On babble, josh is free to write what he likes, without that kind of harrassment.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 12 October 2003 01:00 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, sorry, that is really unacceptable. Quislings were Nazi collaborators - I know how upset you get when people throw "Nazi" around loosely in terms of Israeli policy.

Personally, I think the recent ADL award to Berlusconi, who said "Mussolini never killed anyone, and sent his opponents to holiday camp" comes a lot closer to a line that must not be crossed - it verges on Holocaust denial.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 12 October 2003 02:26 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It would appear that Mishei is not returning to this thread.

Always interesting.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 12 October 2003 02:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Forgive me: I come late to this discussion, and have only just backtracked to find the original, quoted above.

To me, that statement is a violation of babble policy. To imply that any Jewish poster to babble who is critical of current Israeli policy is a "Quisling" is, on the surface of it, racist and abusive.

josh doesn't need any other defence. On babble, josh is free to write what he likes, without that kind of harrassment.


This has nothing to do with Israeli policy. It is MY interpretation. I dont really care if you like it or no andt frankly I certainly dont care how Skdadl wants to apply her usual biased misinterpretation. I will live with it.

Jews have been pushed around for far too long. So IMHO and that of many more, those who engage in advocating the destruction of the only Jewish state in the world, then they engage in antisemitism...this goes for anyone be they Jewish or not...that is how I feel and you can berate me all you want. I have dealt with and battled antisemitism all of my life. Israel the JEWISH state is a bastion of freedom for Jews it is something Jews have yearned for throughout the centuries. Anyone advocating its removal now no matter what rationalization they engage in, IMHO is engaging in antisemitism.

Again not in terms of Israeli policy not at all....


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 October 2003 04:59 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei,

a) Everyone has "a biased interpretation" when it comes to this issue and this forum, and
b) It's not just skdadl who has a problem with you calling josh a "Quisling Jew" as you can see from the protests from several posters.

I guess you won't complain the next time someone uses a Nazi comparison to support their point of view about Israel, now that you've used one yourself to brand a poster who disagrees with you, and a Jewish poster in particular.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 12 October 2003 05:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Quisling Jew."

I have been thinking about this for hours. I even had a nap on it. It still haunts me.

I don't think that we can tolerate this on babble.

Maybe Mishei could apologize. But by now: whatever.

josh is such a good citizen. It devastates me to hear someone attack him that way, so I can only imagine how he feels.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 12 October 2003 05:48 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's my day off, but I got enough complaints about this that I'm going to suspend Mishei's posting ability for now. Calling each other 'Quisling' is not okay. I'll think more about this over the rest of the weekend, and discuss it with the rest of rabble staff.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 12 October 2003 06:15 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would hope you would reconsider, Audra. And let me make it clear that I did not complain. I've been called worse, and I have a tough hide.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 12 October 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Deny their feelings all you want and find the odd Quisling Jew who will go along with this antisemitic concept but that is what it is.

I agree with Josh that this comment doesn't merit suspension. It is not name calling, but rather an expression of the idea that someone's race should determine his or her political views.

In combining a reference to the traitor Quisling and the race of the commentator, the suggestion is offensive, to say the least.

I do not think any Jew is a "race-traitor" because he advocates a bi-national state as a solution to the present interminable crisis. In fact, with the possible exception of someone justifying the holocaust, I think the idea of a "race traitor" makes no sense. From my point of view, it says more about the person invoking the idea than about his target.

But Mishei has had many good and intelligent things to say in our forums, and I would hate to lose him. Perhaps "Quisling Jew" has no more force behind it that does the expression "Uncle Tom". It hurts, but it isn't so vicious as to require expulsion.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 12 October 2003 07:14 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think "Quisling Jew" is several degrees worse than "Uncle Tom". Quisling was a Nazi and sent Jews to their deaths. Uncle Tom never owned any slaves, his fault was submissiveness.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 12 October 2003 08:02 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
I would hope you would reconsider, Audra. And let me make it clear that I did not complain. I've been called worse, and I have a tough hide.

Josh is a fair minded man.

I've seen posters be creative in calling others names, for instance the weaselly (nazi like) rather than the thing itself.

If the term (Quisling like) had been used would it have passed?

[ 12 October 2003: Message edited by: EarthShadow ]


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
minimal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2222

posted 12 October 2003 10:25 PM      Profile for minimal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Words words words. What's in a name...blah blah blah. Is this a junior high school where naughty students get "suspended"? Let's find this mishei character and flog her/him at least fifty times. Then, only if they do the proper penance, should they be allowed back to participate in "democratic" debate.
From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3391

posted 12 October 2003 10:46 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I think it's more about silencing the guy, than about maintaining standards.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
googlymoogly
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3819

posted 12 October 2003 10:56 PM      Profile for googlymoogly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What Mishei said was extremely offensive, but I think that suspending him would be counterproductive; it would send the message that other people's views and sensibilities are so weak and easily shattered that they cannot stand in opposition to his.
edited for clarification

[ 13 October 2003: Message edited by: googlymoogly ]


From: the fiery bowels of hell | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 12 October 2003 11:11 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Quisling was a Nazi and sent Jews to their deaths.

I think this is putting too fine a point on it. In the English language, a Quisling is a traitor.
Quisling himself was the leader of a tiny party called Nasjonal Samling which lent itself to the Nazi project of occupying Norway. It had never advocated a "Final Solution" for Jews, though obviously it was not free from racism.

More fundamentally, though, I think use of the word Quisling means something far different than use of the name Hitler would.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 12 October 2003 11:16 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, Quisling was installed to lead the Norwegian government which did deport Jews. Calling someone a Jewish Quisling carries more baggage than calling them a Jewish Benedict Arnold.

Anyway, I don't think Mishei should be suspended. I just think he should be more sensitive about what he calls people who disagree with him.

[ 13 October 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 October 2003 12:04 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that the use of the term reflects badly on Mishei's ideological dogmatism, but that he should be allowed to stay around to reap the consequences.
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 13 October 2003 12:38 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let me register another vote against Mishei's suspension. "Quisling Jew" is an offensive term, but not outrageously worse than average for the MidEast forum. And since Josh, as always, is gracious enough to shrug it off, I'd say that should end the matter.
From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 13 October 2003 01:31 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While noting that once again Mishei managed to make the conversation about him rather than the issue, I agree that the suspension is overkill.

Damn flood control.

From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 13 October 2003 02:15 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd say "Quisling Jew" is far more offensive than, say, "Uncle Tom," yet I don't agree that Mishei should be banned. His use of such a term is outrageously hypocritical, given his many objections against anyone else using Nazi metaphors, yet it is typical of his arguments.

I think Mishei should be left free to show us, without fetters, how wrong he is.

We need him around babble to demonstrate the offensiveness of his position, and to provide us with regular reminders of why those who take similar postions are so offensive.

[ 13 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 October 2003 04:32 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
I'd say "Quisling Jew" is far more offensive than, say, "Uncle Tom," yet I don't agree that Mishei should be banned. His use of such a term is outrageously hypocritical, given his many objections against anyone else using Nazi metaphors, yet it is typical of his arguments.

I think Mishei should be left free to show us, without fetters, how wrong he is.

We need him around babble to demonstrate the offensiveness of his position, and to provide us with regular reminders of why those who take similar postions are so offensive.

[ 13 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


My thoughts exactly.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 13 October 2003 09:34 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would also petition to have the suspension lifted.

Mishei is a valuable regular on babble, and like most other regulars, me for sure, sometimes he gets sloppy or carried away. It's probably unfair of me to believe that committed contributors deserve a bit of slack when they cross lines, but I do (and have so argued at boring length elsewhere).

I've also found the reasoning of others above instructive and persuasive. And I'll try to keep my own flailing rhetoric in check for a while, too.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 13 October 2003 12:15 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I give up. Okay, he's not suspended.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 13 October 2003 12:18 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How dare you! My great-great grandmother's third cousin was once not suspended even though all her siblings had been suspended and so she was left alone in a non-suspended status pining for those she missed.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 13 October 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Mishei is a valuable regular on babble, and like most other regulars, me for sure, sometimes he gets sloppy or carried away. It's probably unfair of me to believe that committed contributors deserve a bit of slack when they cross lines, but I do (and have so argued at boring length elsewhere).

Yeah, and you're wrong. But I lifted his ban for y'all.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 13 October 2003 12:24 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
How dare you! My great-great grandmother's third cousin was once not suspended even though all her siblings had been suspended and so she was left alone in a non-suspended status pining for those she missed.

She coulda done a sympathy strike, eh?

I found that very good company.

It's better to be able to babble, though.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 October 2003 03:18 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It seems that while I was away celebrating the Jewish festival of Succoth I went through a temporary banning.

I went back through the thread to determine what exactly it was that set Audra off and clearly it was my use of the term "Quisling".

For the record, I have no idea what religion anyone here may or may not be. I was putting forward a strongly held belief that some here feel was racist...that is the use of the term "Quisling to describe those members pof The Jewish community who advocate the dissolution of the Jewish state of Israel. I do not believe that my actions were racist.

While I do not apologize for my passion and continue to feel strongly that such a position is antisemitic, it was not my intention to single anyone out for derision and by using such a loaded term it appears I may have done just that. I do regret that piece of it.

That said, my position remains crystal clear. A so-called "one-state solution" in essence means the end of the Jewish state. This is unacceptable to many many Jews from all political backrounds from the left to the right. And let me repeat, those who engage in advocating for Israel's dissolution are IMHO engaging in antisemtism.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 October 2003 03:36 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
It seems that while I was away celebrating the Jewish festival of Succoth I went through a temporary banning.

I went back through the thread to determine what exactly it was that set Audra off and clearly it was my use of the term "Quisling".

For the record, I have no idea what religion anyone here may or may not be. I was putting forward a strongly held belief that some here feel was racist...that is the use of the term "Quisling to describe those members pof The Jewish community who advocate the dissolution of the Jewish state of Israel. I do not believe that my actions were racist.

While I do not apologize for my passion and continue to feel strongly that such a position is antisemitic, it was not my intention to single anyone out for derision and by using such a loaded term it appears I may have done just that. I do regret that piece of it.

That said, my position remains crystal clear. A so-called "one-state solution" in essence means the end of the Jewish state. This is unacceptable to many many Jews from all political backrounds from the left to the right. And let me repeat, those who engage in advocating for Israel's dissolution are IMHO engaging in antisemtism.


So considering that my family has been in Canada a long time, I suppose it would be fair -- according to you -- for us to declare that Canada was a Canadian State, and to maintain the Canadian character of Canada that all people not meeting the requirements of ethnic/racial Canadianism (soon to be defined by certain racial and religious characteristics) should forthwith be deported or otherwise - including so-called 'Canadian' Jews? I mean, how can you be from two places, afterall?

[Note: I will be terribly sad to see skdadl go, but it seems that she likes baseball more than hockey, and this will be considered double-plus-un-Canadian in the new Canadian State of Canada]

And when LePen says that France is for 'Frenchmen' and this boundary excludes Arabs and Jews, this is also okay, because Frenchmen need their space to feel free and secure...

That's what you are arguing, and that is what happened in 1948, and continues to happen today in Israel.

The ridiculousness of your position is in falling for the standard 19th century proto-fascist tripe that only ethnocentric nation states can protect the real interests of any particular group, in spite of the fact that history has shown the exact opposite. Attempts to cordon off ethnic groups and control demography along ethnic lines through state power have resulted in everything from massive ethnic cleansings, to the Jewish Genocide and more. This model has produced a 50-year war in the Middle East which began with it's own ethnic cleansing. The multicultural, secular model has protected the rights of ALL minorities far better than the ethnostate model, and yet you dismiss this idea as 'antisemitism'. More astounding still that you enunciate this point from a position of relative privilege and safety in a multicultural democracy where Jews (and all others) have been safer from attack than in any another place. The irony (dare I say hipocrisy?) is not lost.

Moreover, Mishei, like the Jews of the early 20th Century in Germany (and elsewhere) who embraced nationalist idealism (Zionism) as the manner of the times, you are courting disaster. You are making a deal with the devil. Your argument gives succour to (is the ideological twin of) the rightwing nuts in this country (and in others) who would like to see the strict seperation of ethnicities and 'races' in order to better administrate the "freedom" of 'White Christian Canadians (Americans, Frenchmen, etc.)'. You put yourself in the position of undermining the very thing that makes this state -- where you enunciate your position safely -- tolerant and tolerable. You lay down the red carpet for accusations of being 'a dual citizen' (to be redefined as a sort of traitor) and for the necessity of getting rid of, or clamping down on, all 'non-Canadians'.

Frightening and irresponsible, really, that someone could be so willfully blind to all common sense and history. Moreover, from a pragmatic standpoint, it is clear that the model you intend to impose on the situation in the Middle East does not suit the conditions found there; i.e. the existence of a massive non-Jewish population on the same small territory hoped for the state of Israel. This contradiction of ideology and the reality that is the Palestinians very existence is why you must support (though you try to talk out of both sides of your mouth) occupation, settlements, and all the brutality therein. It's a classic case of cutting off your nose in spite of your face...

In your ideological universe, the Palestinian Arab has become the Jew: racially unfit to participate, an existential threat to the security of the Jewish people, a kind of pollution or parasite (a cancer?) that the Israeli body politic cannot absorb, while Jews play the part of the majority/tyrant who keep their (now Jews) Arabs at bay with walls, with arms, and with ignorance. You can dress it up in nice language about 'liberation' and all, but the reality is that your inclusion involves an exclusion. And as Hegel has been fashionable around here of late, I will again bring up his salient point that the master is never more free than the slave.

[ 13 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 13 October 2003 03:37 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So that would include Paul Adams in today's G&M, Mishei? And all the people he quotes on the topic?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 13 October 2003 03:48 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is quite likely that within 50 years the number of Israeli Arabs living within Israel's pre-1967 borders will be greater than the number of Israeli Jews. What should happen then, Mishei? Should the country remain a democracy or should it terminate democracy in order to remain a "Jewish state"? If one argues for democracy in such circumstances does one become an "anti-Semite"?
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 13 October 2003 04:42 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you don't know that josh is Jewish yet, you're paying way more attention to your own posts than to others'.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 October 2003 07:08 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
So that would include Paul Adams in today's G&M, Mishei? And all the people he quotes on the topic?

Yes, skdadl, unrepentent vile antisemites one and all.

According to this definition, so were Judah Magnes, Martin Buber, Hannah Arendt and still other, lesser-known but conscientious and impassioned voices who asked for mainstream aggressive Revisionist Zionism be reconsidered. In fact, most of the luminaries of true antifascist and leftist Zionism, and non-Zionist Jewish positions would be considered 'antisemites' under Mishei's intolerant ethnocentric, and thoroughly alarmist, rubric. Thus 'peace' is made into 'war'.

Note that our Mishei, the self-proclaimed 'leftwing' thinker has taken up an ethnocentric position to the right of even the World Zionist Organistion who seem to have no trouble giving Magnes his due; as in the link above. In fact, his position bears a striking resemblence to the hard lines taken by right wing elements in the ADL, Bnai Brith and their subsidiary publicist/activist organisations.

[ 13 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 October 2003 07:22 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by audra estrones:
If you don't know that josh is Jewish yet, you're paying way more attention to your own posts than to others'.

I know Josh has imtimated he may be Jewish but honestly It is a chat board in which people are free to say what they will anonomously.

As such i pay little attention to what personal claims are made as to religion or ethnicity unless it impacts directly on the subject the poster is responding to. I find it safer that way.

Now Courage as for Buber and Arendt, they were writing at a different time and a differnet place. We cannot assume today that given all that has past they would or would not have changed. My position is based on today, NOW.

Indeed my late father was a lng-time Bundist who rejected the Zionist dream. However all that changed after the war when he became a strong Zionist. So unfortunately your examples do not hold sway for me.

Skdadl, Paul Adamas was providing an observation from what seems a Palestinian viewpoint. I dont see him advocating the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish state, more he seems to be conjecturing what may occur if peace does not come soon. A far cry from claiminmg Israel should not exist as a Jewish state.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 October 2003 07:28 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft:
It is quite likely that within 50 years the number of Israeli Arabs living within Israel's pre-1967 borders will be greater than the number of Israeli Jews. What should happen then, Mishei? Should the country remain a democracy or should it terminate democracy in order to remain a "Jewish state"? If one argues for democracy in such circumstances does one become an "anti-Semite"?
It is also quite possible that this may not occur. Through immigration and other means I prefer to believe that Israel can maitain its Jewish character and majority as well as being a full and vibrant democracy.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 13 October 2003 08:01 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is also quite possible that this may not occur. Through immigration and other means I prefer to believe that Israel can maitain its Jewish character and majority as well as being a full and vibrant democracy.

Immigration has dropped off and emigration is increasing. I don't know what you mean by "other measures" but, again, what if your miracle doesn't happen and the Arabs become a majority. Would you favour democracy or maintaining Israel's "Jewish character" and would those advocating democracy be "anti-Semites"?


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 13 October 2003 08:58 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Through immigration and other means...

Did any one else feel a chill at reading "other means"?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 13 October 2003 09:05 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Through immigration and other means

I think we know what he means.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 October 2003 09:08 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Did any one else feel a chill at reading "other means"?


Take a pill Al. I was referring to childbirth...sheesh you are too much!!!!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 13 October 2003 09:18 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pro-natalist policies haven't worked anywhere in the world where they've been attempted.

Anyway Mishei, why don't you answer my question? If Jews become a minority in Israel should it remain a "Jewish state"? Is the concept of a "Jewish state" more important than democracy?


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 13 October 2003 09:20 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is a model for the two state solution:
http://www.separatism.org/hart.htm

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 13 October 2003 10:30 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First off, re suspension of Mishei: If I can get thumped by audra, and not have anyone come to my defence, why the hell should Mishei merit preferential treatment? Rules are rules, and while audra's word is the final one here (and I accept that), I would note that contrary to audra's one-time claim that I was being schoolyardish in asking for consistency in treatment, I believe that consistency in rule enforcement is the fastest way for respect for the rules to be maintained.

But no more from me on that topic. Onto the thread!

quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Jews have been pushed around for far too long. So IMHO and that of many more, those who engage in advocating the destruction of the only Jewish state in the world, then they engage in antisemitism...this goes for anyone be they Jewish or not...that is how I feel and you can berate me all you want. I have dealt with and battled antisemitism all of my life. Israel the JEWISH state is a bastion of freedom for Jews it is something Jews have yearned for throughout the centuries. Anyone advocating its removal now no matter what rationalization they engage in, IMHO is engaging in antisemitism.

Mishei, this constant siege mentality trip you keep laying on the rest of us is more than a bit annoying, especially to someone like myself who would quite acidly observe that by YOUR standards in particular, Israel won every single war it ever fought with Arab groups or with other Middle Eastern countries.

I would also sardonically point out that by now, Israel holds a conventional - and nuclear, although they won't ever say so - edge over the neighboring countries to such an extent that nobody would be such an idiot as to try and launch a full-scale attack on Israel.

Israel. will. not. be. destroyed. Relax. Already.

The only way it could get destroyed, quite frankly, is if some idiot in China, Russia or the USA sets off a nuke and causes all the other weapons to get launched, plunging the whole world into nuclear winter, and then it really won't matter who owned that land first cuz we'll all be DEAD.

Perhaps you could put that in your pipe and get a little sense of perspective.

I marvel at how a nation's people can be so armed to the teeth and yet so insecure.

[ 13 October 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 October 2003 11:16 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

I know Josh has imtimated he may be Jewish but honestly It is a chat board in which people are free to say what they will anonomously.

As such i pay little attention to what personal claims are made as to religion or ethnicity unless it impacts directly on the subject the poster is responding to. I find it safer that way.

Now Courage as for Buber and Arendt, they were writing at a different time and a differnet place. We cannot assume today that given all that has past they would or would not have changed. My position is based on today, NOW.

Indeed my late father was a lng-time Bundist who rejected the Zionist dream. However all that changed after the war when he became a strong Zionist. So unfortunately your examples do not hold sway for me.

Skdadl, Paul Adamas was providing an observation from what seems a Palestinian viewpoint. I dont see him advocating the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish state, more he seems to be conjecturing what may occur if peace does not come soon. A far cry from claiminmg Israel should not exist as a Jewish state.


Actually, Arendt continued to advocate a secular democratic Israel (as opposed to the non-secular model still in place) until her death. Similarly, Buber, Magnes and their ilk also advocated a binational solution for decades after the creation of Israel, even as the 1956 and later wars were raging. Moreover, many others have taken up the same mantle as the 'antisemitic' (your definition) authors I noted would , and have continued to lobby for the same kinds of solutions they were advocating.

These people have been continually derided, attacked, called Quislings, traitors, self-haters and worse by a Zionist establishment 'mainstream' which continually repeats the same fascist mantra of 'one people, one state' as their rallying call. Calls for peace, for reconciliation, and for a new way of relating with the Palestinians on point of mutual respect are called 'extremist', 'antisemitic' (as here) and worse, and slowly moderate voices have been silenced or bullied out of the public discourse leaving a body politic so enamoured with it's own tails of suffering and liberation that it cannot, or will not see the suffering this myopia has caused not only to the Palestinians, but to Israelis themselves.

You are just one example of this blindness, and I note your response is little more than a hand-gesture; as if to say "they're irrelevent" without any actual argumentation to show why. You have in no way adequately demonstrated why and how historical 'changes' have rendered this position untenable, or irrelevent.

Also notable -- though not suprising -- is that you fail to address the real crux of my post - that your argument is the ideological twin of the rabid rightwing, who would rather see a nice White Christian Canada in place of the multicultural situation which protects and supports you and your identity. You make no case for why universalism is fine HERE where it protects your privilege, but is untenable THERE and ethnocentrism is all that is possible/desirable. Politics does make strange bedfellows, and here you demonstrate, in silence, the paucity of your position. You are just what you think you are running from.

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
windymustang
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4509

posted 13 October 2003 11:18 PM      Profile for windymustang     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whew, you people have sure been busy since I last checked the sight. I am also happy that Mishei was not banned from the site.

Courage, your comments from 3:36p.m. were extremely insightful. I agree with you that Canadians provide the best role model for the PA/Isreal conflict solution.

Building walls, moving and/or controlling the people through unfair practices and establishing states based on ethnicity can not be called democracy. The parallels you drew to 19th century political ideals that failed or led to enthnic cleansing were very illuminating.

From reading your forums for the last few weeks, it is very apparant that Mishei is extremely passionate in his beliefs. I can not approve of people being called names, but I understand the passion of his arguement. I am not an anti-semite, and am offended to be called one because I can not support a Jewish state.

I understand that Isreal was and is the dream (ideal)of the land promised by God to the Jews, but as the situation stands post WWII up to the present, this is not a fair or just solution for all who dwell in that country.


From: from the locker of Mad Mary Flint | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 13 October 2003 11:35 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I marvel at how a nation's people can be so armed to the teeth and yet so insecure.

Doodly doop, be doo.
Hmmm.

Say Doc, I don't want to mention any names, but , nudge nudge...I'll just look south and whistle....

quote:
I was referring to childbirth

Right, gotcha Mish. People generally use vague euphemisms to describe wholesome things.

[ 13 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 October 2003 12:22 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Take a pill Al. I was referring to childbirth...sheesh you are too much!!!!

Interesting - Palestinian birthrates are called 'the demographic bomb' by Israel's 'defenders', and it is often intimated that the Palestinians are putting women's wombs in service of their goals to 'destroy Israel'. But, trying to increase Jewish birthrates to ensure an ethnocentric majority is just sound policy....

Hilarious...

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 October 2003 12:26 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does anyone else besides me find the whole idea of "encouraging high birth rates" abhorrent in any case?

Hey, ladies, do your part for the country - become baby factories! That's right, it's your patriotic duty! (And to be clear, I'm not just talking about Israel, but ANY country that tries to increase its birth rate in order to maintain any type of ethnic "character".)

Bleah.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 14 October 2003 12:43 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Does anyone else besides me find the whole idea of "encouraging high birth rates" abhorrent in any case?

Yes. But in industrialized countries, it generally fails anyway. It was tried in France, for example, from the late 19th century until the Second World War (on the grounds that the much higher German growth rate would mean they could put much more cannon fodder in the field -- quite true, it turned out), and in Soviet Russia (where, the propaganda went, the other "republics" needed Russians to lead and guide them). Didn't work in either case.

There are always exceptions, but where women get more access to education, careers, and birth control than they used to, they (very wisely) choose to have one or two or three children, instead of six or eight or ten. Exhortations and financial incentives for them to do their "national duty," or whatever, fall on deaf ears. Quite right, too. "Encouraging high birth rates" is a euphemism for the proverbial "barefoot, pregnant..."

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 14 October 2003 01:19 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's a process known as demographic transition that shows that as populations become more industrialised their birth rates fall. Generally, the poorer and less industrialised a society (or population) the higher the birthrate. Ironically, if the Israelis were to treat Palestinians as equals with the same economic and legal rights as Jews the Palestinian birthrate would ultimately drop.

The more Israeli Arabs and Palestinians are oppressed, the higher their birthrate and ultimately the faster that Jews will become a minority in both the entire land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean and in Isreal's pre-1967 borders. A certain justice in that when you think about it.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 14 October 2003 01:27 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, if the death rate remains high as well, Palestinian-Arabs will not go through the transition.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 14 October 2003 01:44 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Palestinian death rate began falling in the 1850s when the Ottomans and Christians opened hospitals. The casualty rate on both sides of the war is not sufficient enough to have an impact on population growth. I suspect the infant mortality rate in the West Bank and Gaza as well as among Israeli Arabs within Israel is much lower than elsewhere in the Middle East.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 14 October 2003 01:51 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was thinking of the harsher conditions of life for Palestinian-Arabs, such as lack of adequate access to food, water, shelter and that sort of thing.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 October 2003 02:14 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
I was thinking of the harsher conditions of life for Palestinian-Arabs, such as lack of adequate access to food, water, shelter and that sort of thing.


To both Doc and Mycroft: How to factor in flight; i.e. emigration. Yes, Palestinian birth rates are high, but a lot of Palestinians are emmigrating when they can. The percentages were already high, and seem to be growing as the EU opens up to more and more immigration and as living conditions in some Arab capitals improve.

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 14 October 2003 03:29 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with Michelle about natalism. We are very allergic to that here in Québec now, because of past attempts to achieve the "revenge of the cradle" to bully people into producing large broods - and in the process making women baby-producing machines. I know women here, old now, who were harassed by the local priest if they failed to produce progeny in a year.

About the only Jewish people who have such large families any more are the ultra-orthodox such as the Chassidim. Some of the Sephardic immigrants to Israel from North Africa and the Middle East used to have larger families than Israelis of European extraction, but Sephardic birth rates have pretty much fallen to national norms. Except for ultra-Orthodox settler types, I don't see any potential emigrants to Israel who would have large families. Certainly not highly educated, urbanised folks in Buenos Aires or Paris, or from the former Soviet Union.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 14 October 2003 09:52 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ruth Rosen, of the San Francisco Chronicle, on the despair that produces suicide bombers, and also touching on the whole question of "anti-semitism". http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1013-07.htm
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 October 2003 10:00 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Ruth Rosen, of the San Francisco Chronicle, on the despair that produces suicide bombers, and also touching on the whole question of "anti-semitism". http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1013-07.htm

Lagatta, I do not entirely disagree with Rosen. The occupation has been a disaster for Israel and the majority of Israelis understand this.

There are efforts underway to reach an understanding (Beilin/Rabbo comes to mind).

However, Ms. Rosen must also reflect on the seeds of hate planted by the PA (please see Wente's column. I am posting below some excerpts FYI ).

Both Israelis and Palestinians have much work to do...to borrow a line from one of my favourite poets they have "miles to go before they sleep".

------------------------------------------------

From Globe and Mail Margaret Wente:

Re;Hanadi Jaradat 27 year old suicide bomber..Maxim Cafe

1. "Everyone was happy and proud of her," said a neighbour in Jenin, the explosive refugee camp where she lived. "We are receiving congratulations from people," said her 15-year-old brother, Thaher. "Why should we cry? It is like her wedding today, the happiest day for her."

2. TV news shows and newspaper articles that glorify murderers (interviews with proud mothers of the dead are a standard feature), and sermons from extremist imams. It also includes a unique invention of Palestinian culture -- music videos celebrating suicide, starring attractive boys and girls in Western fashions and set to catchy music. These music videos have two themes. One is the wickedness and depravity of the Israelis. The other is the beauty of Shahada -- dying for Allah -- which is depicted as the supreme act of patriotism.


3. One [music video] that ran on TV all summer (after the PA had agreed to engage in the "peace process") shows a mother who is targeted and murdered by soldiers. Her daughter mourns her death and sings sadly over her grave. In another, shot in a similarly gauzy, impressionistic style, soldiers shoot down Palestinian schoolchildren at a checkpoint in successive waves, until they're all dead. The last scene shows a graveyard, where the ghostly children rise again, presumably to ascend to the sweet afterlife. In another, a handsome young man sees his sweetheart shot dead. She ascends to Heaven, where she appears robed in white among the other maidens of Paradise. Then he becomes a martyr, too, and is reunited with her in Paradise, where they once again embrace.

4. Soccer teams and UN-sponsored summer camps are named after suicide bombers. Last May, the director of the Palestinian children's aid association gave a television interview in which she explained that part of education policy is to teach children to aspire to death for Allah. "The concept of Shahada for him [the child] means belonging to the homeland, from a religious point of view. Sacrifice for his homeland. Achieving Shahada in order to reach Paradise and to meet his God. This is the best."

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 October 2003 04:12 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Lagatta, I do not entirely disagree with Rosen. The occupation has been a disaster for Israel and the majority of Israelis understand this.

There are efforts underway to reach an understanding (Beilin/Rabbo comes to mind).

However, Ms. Rosen must also reflect on the seeds of hate planted by the PA (please see Wente's column. I am posting below some excerpts FYI ).

Both Israelis and Palestinians have much work to do...to borrow a line from one of my favourite poets they have "miles to go before they sleep".


What a crock - the only difference between these music videos and, for instance, Marine Corps [motto: Semper Fidelis: Always faithful (even unto death)] recruiting videos is in their subtlty. The Palestinian versions are more crude, and simply strip away some of the layers of metaphor suggested by 'Be All You Can Be' (The U.S. Army recruiting slogan) and all the other cult of heroism (altruistic suicide) nonsense that all militaries (including the IDF) use.

Altruistic suicide -- the act of dying on behalf of the whole -- is celebrated proudly in most societies. As a testament, please go into any even minor urban centre and go to the local cenotaph or Tomb of The Unknown Soldier for a look-see. Virtually all societies have this national-religious mythology about the faceless member of 'the nation' who was willing to sacrifice their individuality and life for the good of all. I personally don't think that it's much more than an epiphenomenal dressing for a basic herd instinct, but the Palestinians are no different in this.

Just another example of Palestinian nationalism being 'extremism' and Israeli nationalism being 'liberation'....

Newspeak, all.

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 October 2003 04:25 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excerpts from the Israeli Defense Force website in the section labelled Doctrine: IDF Doctrine.

quote:

The Values :

Tenacity of Purpose in Performing Missions and Drive to
Victory
- The IDF servicemen and women will fight and conduct
themselves with courage in the face of all dangers and obstacles;
They will persevere in their missions resolutely and thoughtfully
even to the point of endangering their lives.

Responsibility - The IDF serviceman or woman will see
themselves as active participants in the defense of the state, its
citizens and residents. They will carry out their duties at all times
with initiative, involvement and diligence with common sense and
within the framework of their authority, while prepared to bear
responsibility for their conduct.

Human Life - The IDF servicemen and women will act in a
judicious and safe manner in all they do, out of recognition of the
supreme value of human life. During combat they will endanger
themselves and their comrades only to the extent required to carry
out their mission.

Comradeship - The IDF servicemen and women will act out of
fraternity and devotion to their comrades, and will always go to
their assistance when they need their help or depend on them,
despite any danger or difficulty, even to the point of risking their
lives.

Sense of Mission - The IDF soldiers view their service in the
IDF as a mission; They will be ready to give their all in order to
defend the state, its citizens and residents. This is due to the fact
that they are representatives of the IDF who act on the basis and in
the framework of the authority given to them in accordance with
IDF orders.


Just a few interesting excerpts. The subtext under statements like 'give their all' and 'endanger their lives' is clear to anyone who has any familiarity at all with military culture. This is taken to mean the desire and willingness to make the (warning: religio-spiritual euphemism) ultimate sacrifice -- i.e. altruistic suicide -- on behalf of their unit, their commanders, and their country.

A few more layers of metaphor, and a lot of slick sloganeering (marketing newspeak) but nothing entirely different from Palestinian society honouring those who purport to defend the interests of the nation, the body politic, and their families. In fact, the one difference is that as army recruiters in 'the West' have found out, 'we' are a lot more reticent to give our lives for causes than in recent history. Comfort and decadence, I suppose...But, when you have little to lose -- as the Palestinians -- it becomes a lot easier to 'give your all.'

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 14 October 2003 04:37 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It would also be interesting to look at founding myths (of the Israeli State, of the Palestinian liberation movement, as of all modern and historic states and national movements). Such as the Zealots of Masada, whose heroic resistance to the Roman occupier ended in a mass suicide. (Yes, I know the Zealots weren't targeting civilians...) Masada is a very important founding myth for Israel.

In the past, the Palestinian myths related more to an idealised lost parent or love representing the land. Fundamentalist Islam is a relative newcomer to that pantheon.

Whatever peaceful and reasonably just solution can be found to this conflict will require the elaboration of a new myth, the Andalusian dream, the East-West Divan of Daniel Barenboim and the late Edward Saïd could provide some inklings of that process.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2230

posted 14 October 2003 04:46 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, you have not answered my questions. If Jews are no longer a majority in Israel should Israel cease being a democracy in order to maintain its status as a Jewish state or should it remain a democracy and cease being a "Jewish state"?
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 October 2003 04:47 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
It would also be interesting to look at founding myths (of the Israeli State, of the Palestinian liberation movement, as of all modern and historic states and national movements).

I did a lot of this in school and still do a fair amount on my own. One of my main theoretical interests was/is the conditions/elaboration of modern nationalism - including the quasi-spiritual/religious mythologies surrounding basic principles such as 'democracy', 'the nation', etc.

quote:
Such as the Zealots of Masada, whose heroic resistance to the Roman occupier ended in a mass suicide. (Yes, I know the Zealots weren't targeting civilians...) Masada is a very important founding myth for Israel.

For fun, I once managed to help out on a tour of Israel being given to American tourists. The tour guide went to great lengths to describe the history of Masada and it's position as a founding myth in Israeli society. Her reading tended toward a romantic and ultimately positive spin on the idea of heroic suicide/sacrifice to thwart a conquering invader.

quote:

Whatever peaceful and reasonably just solution can be found to this conflict will require the elaboration of a new myth, the Andalusian dream, the East-West Divan of Daniel Barenboim and the late Edward Saïd could provide some inklings of that process.


Couldn't agree more. Though I've been reading 'For Whom the Bell Tolls' which has me a little down on idealism, of late....

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 October 2003 04:59 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei says: "Lagatta, I do not entirely disagree with Rosen. The occupation has been a disaster for Israel and the majority of Israelis understand this."

What of the disaster for the Palestinians, I wonder?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 October 2003 05:03 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

What a crock - the only difference between these music videos and, for instance, Marine Corps [motto: Semper Fidelis: Always faithful (even unto death)] recruiting videos is in their subtlty. The Palestinian versions are more crude, and simply strip away some of the layers of metaphor suggested by 'Be All You Can Be' (The U.S. Army recruiting slogan) and all the other cult of heroism (altruistic suicide) nonsense that all militaries (including the IDF) use.

Altruistic suicide -- the act of dying on behalf of the whole -- is celebrated proudly in most societies. As a testament, please go into any even minor urban centre and go to the local cenotaph or Tomb of The Unknown Soldier for a look-see. Virtually all societies have this national-religious mythology about the faceless member of 'the nation' who was willing to sacrifice their individuality and life for the good of all. I personally don't think that it's much more than an epiphenomenal dressing for a basic herd instinct, but the Palestinians are no different in this.

Just another example of Palestinian nationalism being 'extremism' and Israeli nationalism being 'liberation'....

Newspeak, all.

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


This is unreal even for you Courage. I saw the music videos it is nothing but an attempt by the PA to advocate the murder of innocent Israelis. It provides the salve needed for children to commit suicide. It is despicable, evil and in any other country would be criminal in that it counsels people to commit murder. That you find a way to justify it is just as sickening.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 14 October 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I don't think Courage was trying to justify suicide bombing or downplay the horrific impact on the civilian population. He was looking at the methods used by ALL armed forces (official armies and guerrilla movements alike) to desensitise combatants to the impact of organised violence on the adversary, be it enemy troops or the civilians suffering after a bombing run or suicide mission.

For example, innocent folks in Baghdad have suffered just as much as those innocent people at the café in Haifa. Look at the story of young Ali who not only lost his arm and was burnt over much of his body, but lost his father, mother, brothers and over a dozen other family members.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 14 October 2003 05:27 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just viewed the video in question (and a couple more that supposedly fall in the same catagory,) and funnyhow they remind me a lot of a few hollywood movies that portray Arabs as evil devils . . . funny how that works!!!
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 October 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Mishei, I don't think Courage was trying to justify suicide bombing or downplay the horrific impact on the civilian population. He was looking at the methods used by ALL armed forces (official armies and guerrilla movements alike) to desensitise combatants to the impact of organised violence on the adversary, be it enemy troops or the civilians suffering after a bombing run or suicide mission.

For example, innocent folks in Baghdad have suffered just as much as those innocent people at the café in Haifa. Look at the story of young Ali who not only lost his arm and was burnt over much of his body, but lost his father, mother, brothers and over a dozen other family members.



Lagatta, the videos (
produced by the PA No Yards) justify child suicide bombers. They cannot be compared to armed forces recruitment videos!!! Let me repeat they encourage, justify, support child murder.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 October 2003 05:38 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
This is unreal even for you Courage. I saw the music videos it is nothing but an attempt by the PA to advocate the murder of innocent Israelis.

If something I do enters your mind as 'unreal' I might be on to something...

You saw them, eh? Interesting that you didn't note that before. Sounds like somebody is sandbagging. That you saw them doesn't release us from the question "what did you see", it's merely an appeal to authority. In this case a dubious one: yourself.

quote:
It provides the salve needed for children to commit suicide. It is despicable, evil and in any other country would be criminal in that it counsels people to commit murder. That you find a way to justify it is just as sickening.

I did no such thing. Explaining a phenomenon and comparing it to others is not moral justification. Except, of course from your partial view which holds the usual crap that militaries do to people's heads to be justifiable and 'normal', not to say anything of what the IDF does. Moreover, your position reeks of your usual myopic racism - Palestinian actions (in this case images in a video) must be 'evil' and 'unlawful' but the real life events (the killing of people by the IDF which happens almost everyday) that the fictional videos draw upon for their saliency and audience sympathy are written out of the question. You want to talk 'unreal'?

I personally abhor the training techniques of ALL militaries (incl. the IDF) for the manner in which they degrade human life. Not only the life of the recruit, but of any possible 'target objective' which might be put in front of them. There is a dark underbelly to the information from the IDF site when it states that IDF troops will endanger themselves and their comrades only when necessary for the mission. Written in the margins somewhere is that endangering others in lieu of yourself and your comrades is what militaries DO: it is one of their primary Missions. The IDF "provides the salve" for young recruits to commit altruistic suicide -- and murder -- through their training and indoctrination procedures. I have been to Israel and seen the cemetaries - soldiers who die in combat (commit suicide for their country) are no less honoured than anywhere else.

In both cases -- IDF training (not restricted to just videos) and Palestinian videos -- layers of metaphor are applied to euphemise certain actions and to suggest others. The whole point is to create a quasi-spiritual 'Mission' -- as the IDF website calls it -- a Big Other of which the small, insignificant soldier is only a cog and ultimately beholden to/watched by - even unto death. (Anyone else think this psychoanalytic turn is where Orwell was going with Big Brother?) There is no direct counselling of murder in the videos, Mishei, simply a series of -- albeit crude -- images and metaphors designed to call people to defend themselves from a phantasmic enemy.

The distinction between this and common military training is largely one of aesthetics, really: while the Palestinian videos are romantic (impressionistic says Wente) in style, military training techniques are technocratic and bureacratic. They are cold, modernist, "realist" affairs where people become 'targets' and 'objectives' and dead bystanders are accounted as 'collataral damage' and so on. Different metaphor, same result: dead folks.

But I guess in your mind IDF troops-in-training sit around in circles singing Kum-by-yah and sipping hemp tea and discussing the finer points of chakra alignment and peaceful reconciliation with the Palestinians they are set to hold in occupation, under curfew, whose houses they will bulldoze, etc.

Moreover, I suppose the images that the video makers use do not draw on any reality that the Palestinians experience - no, they are plucked out of thin air - merely imaginings in wicked murderous minds hellbent on killing Jews and willing to use any means to convince people to do it. Because certainly the Palestinians could have no reason to feel threatened.

These Palestinian 'demons' are prepared to mow-down row after row of innocent Israeli schoolchildren...

You want to talk 'unreal'. With a doozy of a fantasy like that one rolling around in your head, I doubt there is much room for much else, let alone being able to see that your fantasy is their fantasy too. Hmmmm, something in common with those you hate so much? Couldn't be...

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 October 2003 06:05 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Courage I admire your ability to try and drown posters with bafflegab, rhetoric and long lonnnnnnnnnnngg posts.

However nothing you can say will in any way "explain' the decision of the PA to justify the self-immolation of children..NOTHING. Call me a racist or any other of your fancy names truth is I grieve for Palestinian children as i grieve for any child. That The PA deems it apptopriate to produce a video as descibed:

quote:
In another, shot in a similarly gauzy, impressionistic style, soldiers shoot down Palestinian schoolchildren at a checkpoint in successive waves, until they're all dead. The last scene shows a graveyard, where the ghostly children rise again, presumably to ascend to the sweet afterlife. In another, a handsome young man sees his sweetheart shot dead. She ascends to Heaven, where she appears robed in white among the other maidens of Paradise. Then he becomes a martyr, too, and is reunited with her in Paradise, where they once again embrace.

is abominable.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 14 October 2003 06:15 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
...and?
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 October 2003 06:17 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
[QB]Courage I admire your ability to try and drown posters with bafflegab, rhetoric and long lonnnnnnnnnnngg posts.

I note your ability to refuse to answer any direct challenge to your 'arguments'.

quote:
However nothing you can say will in any way "explain' the decision of the PA to justify the self-immolation of children..NOTHING.

So it is completely 'unexplainable': a metaphysical event beyond the scope of human speculation, reason and experience? Again, you confuse 'description' with 'justification'.

Is that too much 'bafflegab' for you, Mishei?

Actually, this confusion is political - because it is your constant Mission to ensure that the Occupation is written out of the picture when discussing the problems facing Israelis and the Palestinians. So, by making what the Palestinians do simply 'unexplainable' by any reason you elevate their actions out of the world of cause and effect. The end result is that 'the Occupation' is in no way related to anything the Palestinians might do. It is a disaster for 'ISraelis' but for Palestinians, well, who cares? This is the height of rhetorical bafflegab...

Is that too long for you, Mishei?

quote:
Call me a racist or any other of your fancy names truth is I grieve for Palestinian children as i grieve for any child.

Then why do you repeatedly make any and all efforts to defend the ideology and means by which, in part, they are made to suffer by Israel?
Why do you continually attack those who aim to stop the horrors visited upon them day and night by the IDF occuapation?


quote:
That The PA deems it apptopriate to produce a video as descibed:

is abominable.


No one said otherwise. That the IDF continues to indoctrinate young Israelis to occupy, kill, and otherwise denigrate Palestinians in the millions is abominable...

It's also a big reason why the videos exist.

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 14 October 2003 07:53 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A bit closer to home; drill instructors have been known to tell recruits in the Canadian military that their job is "to die for your country."

The ideal of sacrifice among militaries, be they regular troops or guerrillas, is universal.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 October 2003 10:24 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
A bit closer to home; drill instructors have been known to tell recruits in the Canadian military that their job is "to die for your country."

The ideal of sacrifice among militaries, be they regular troops or guerrillas, is universal.


Do they tell children to die for their country?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 14 October 2003 10:49 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3461

posted 14 October 2003 10:56 PM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Double Standard: Goal of Palestinian terrorists is to kill as many innocent civilians as possible and greatest joy is in killing women and children.

Goal of Israeli army is to prevent Palestinian terrorists from killing innocent civilians. Palestinian terrorists purposely place selves in position where high likelihood that Palestinian civilians will be killed or injured by Israeli army action. Palestinian terrorists wish to encourage Palestinian civilian casualties so clever artists can draw funny pictures of the supposed double standard.

For Al Kabong: The crucial difference is that the Palestinian terrorists seek to maximize civilian casualties while the Israeli army seeks to minimimze them. If Israel took the "Syrian"--Hama, "Jordanian"-1970, Iraq -- under the beloved Saddam approach it could have nipped the terrorist problem in the bud and minimized its own army's casualties.


From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 14 October 2003 11:18 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel indiscrimately murders innocent men, women and children in an illegal racist war against civilians.

Only racists defend such actions.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3461

posted 14 October 2003 11:45 PM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wing Nut: You are painfully naive, misinformed or just plain malicious. No other country than Israel has taken steps to not harm non-combatants in a fight against a foe which is dedicated in harming non-combatants.

If you want true racism, just read your own posts.


From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 15 October 2003 12:35 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peacefulnotion:
If Israel took the "Syrian"--Hama, "Jordanian"-1970, Iraq -- under the beloved Saddam approach it could have nipped the terrorist problem in the bud and minimized its own army's casualties.

So the only way you can make Israel's military tactics look good is by comparing them to those of Saddam Hussein and Hafez al-Assad? Wow. Such high standards you have.

quote:
The crucial difference is that the Palestinian terrorists seek to maximize civilian casualties while the Israeli army seeks to minimimze them.

Bullllshhiiiittt.

Here ya go, HatefulNotion:

Amnesty Int'l: The Spiral of Killings and Destruction Must Stop

quote:
"The vast majority of those killed and injured on both sides have been unarmed civilians and bystanders. Both sides have knowingly targeted civilians and shown utter disregard for the most basic principles of human rights and humanitarian law", said Amnesty International.

While claiming that it seeks to avoid harming the Palestinian population the Israeli army tanks and aircraft continue to shell densely populated Palestinian refugee camps and residential areas, knowing that such reckless fire will cause heavy civilian casualties. [empheses mine]


(No, wait, lemme guess... Amnesty International are just "anti-Semitic", right?)


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
lùx
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3497

posted 15 October 2003 02:25 AM      Profile for lùx        Edit/Delete Post
Peacefulnotion: I take it you are very young.
From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 15 October 2003 12:18 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lùx:
Peacefulnotion: I take it you are very young.
That was totally unecessary

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 15 October 2003 02:11 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, come on, Mishei. You're no stranger to hauling out personal traits, real or imagined, in order to attempt drive-by hatchet jobs on someone's credibility.

At least asking if someone is very young is mild compared to calling josh... well, I won't repeat what you said, but suffice it to say you're pretty unparalleled.

[ 15 October 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 15 October 2003 02:49 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Do they tell children to die for their country?

Are we under an oppressive occupation by a far superior military force??? I must have missed that announcement!!!!!!!


Why hold the Palestinians to such high standards by comparing their limited means of national defence to a Canadian standard . . . yet then turn around and allow Israel to hold its means of national defense to the standards of "terrorists"???

It's like you are saying Palestinians are dammed because they don't respond to oppression as would a Tibet Buddist, but the Israelis can respond like common thugs and terrorists and are justified in doing so!!??


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 15 October 2003 04:11 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Oh, come on, Mishei. You're no stranger to hauling out personal traits, real or imagined, in order to attempt drive-by hatchet jobs on someone's credibility.

At least asking if someone is very young is mild compared to calling josh... well, I won't repeat what you said, but suffice it to say you're pretty unparalleled.

[ 15 October 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]



Doc, totally unecessary. First of all I never called Josh anything. Please show me where I actually called him "..."

That said I acknowledged the fact that some may have interpreted my post as an attack on some here and regretted my action.

The fact that you would return to this even though I acknowledged regret says more about you than me.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 15 October 2003 05:09 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some people have problems running backwards, Mishei. It seems Doc was unable to keep up with your backpeddling.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 15 October 2003 08:29 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wing Nut: You are painfully naive, misinformed or just plain malicious. No other country than Israel has taken steps to not harm non-combatants in a fight against a foe which is dedicated in harming non-combatants.


Only to a racist would missile strikes on crowded streets be seen as "steps not to harm non-combatants."
quote:

If you want true racism, just read your own posts.

You are the one who employs stereotypes and lies like the extreme racists before you and you are the one who defends brutality, a ghetto of some three million surrounded by a fence, everyday humiliation, collective punishment and so many other crimes against humanity.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 15 October 2003 09:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

You are the one who employs stereotypes and lies like the extreme racists before you and you are the one who defends brutality, a ghetto of some three million surrounded by a fence, everyday humiliation, collective punishment and so many other crimes against humanity.

I see, and you think I overuse the wrod antisemite. Get a lid on it Wingy!!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 15 October 2003 09:19 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
I see, and you think I overuse the wrod antisemite. Get a lid on it Wingy!!

I personally wouldn't say 'overuse' as much as 'misuse'. The definition of 'antisemite' has been consciously reconfigured as a partisan political epithet to silence critics of Zionism and Israel. It's former use as a definition of someone who hates Jews, and which was rooted in a universalist conception of human rights and dignity as against persecution has been overshadowed and replaced by a thoroughly Newspeak-ish meaning with little relation to anything resembling a universalist stance.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 16 October 2003 12:02 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I see, and you think I overuse the wrod antisemite. Get a lid on it Wingy!!

It is not a surprise mishei would rush to defend the poster of these words:

quote:
The problem in the Middle East is that the Palestinians and their supporters want to ethnically cleanse the Middle East of Jews ... The Arabs have left the Palestinians to fester as part of their goal of annihilating the Jewish population of the MIddle East.

quote:
This whole shibboleth that the Palestinians are underdogs is offensive when it is clear that they are part of the oil rich Arab world

quote:
I would presume it would be like any other autocratic, racist, sexist Arab state like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan (slavery), Jordan (honor killing of women is a way of life),

quote:
Relying on his Palestinian stringers for horribly biased information, yes. Being able to disseminate the truth and historical context, a resounding no.

Imagine if someone spoke in the same language about Jews. Just imagine.

But Mishei always seems to be able to defend some racists. From Daniel Pipes to the ethnic cleanser Benjamin Nethanyahu to this guy. Anti-Arab racists are okay by Mishei. But then he does support the apartheid state.

[ 16 October 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 16 October 2003 08:28 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Imagine if someone spoke in the same language about Jews. Just imagine.

But Mishei always seems to be able to defend some racists. From Daniel Pipes to the ethnic cleanser Benjamin Nethanyahu to this guy. Anti-Arab racists are okay by Mishei. But then he does support the apartheid state.

[ 16 October 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


Gee and here I was thinking that I was taking a shot at Wingy for overusing the word racist. Seems even a few words from me on Babble can lead to a dissertation on my supposed motives.

Wingy the illusionist. Hey David Copperfield is in town perhaps you can show him some new tricks.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 16 October 2003 01:49 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Gee and here I was thinking that I was taking a shot at Wingy for overusing the word racist. Seems even a few words from me on Babble can lead to a dissertation on my supposed motives.

For a person who has expostulated in paragraphs about "looking inside one's self" (to loosely paraphrase you), you have got some nerve expressing indignation at someone turning the same strategy on you and analyzing your motives.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 16 October 2003 01:56 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ARG! My first doublepost.

[ 16 October 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 16 October 2003 05:28 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How nice that you can find humor in those comments, mishei.

I have maintained you have no problem with racism. Only anti-semitism. Thank you for demonstrating, again, I am correct.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 16 October 2003 05:42 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
How nice that you can find humor in those comments, mishei.

I have maintained you have no problem with racism. Only anti-semitism. Thank you for demonstrating, again, I am correct.


I find humour only in the way you always misintepret (not purpsely shurly...)misrepresent (again mistakenly Im sure) and misuse (ahh this is on purpose I believe)my words. GAWD if I didn't laugh Id cry

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 16 October 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wouldn't expect you to cry mishei. You would havbe to have feelings for something other than your own prejudices for that.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 16 October 2003 08:47 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Daily Star

quote:
This is undoubtedly an unfair burden, but it is a fact that oppressed groups must often show their oppressors a way out of the tunnel they have dug. This was true in South Africa, where even in the darkest days of apartheid, the African National Congress under Nelson Mandela offered white South Africans a future of reconciliation, not revenge. As in South Africa, a truth and reconciliation process can help both peoples overcome the pain of the past even as they build a just future together.
Israeli and Palestinian supporters of a one-state solution must build a new movement. This partnership must work to translate the vast international sympathy for the Palestinian cause into active support for the transformation ­ with international assistance and guarantees ­ of Israel and the Occupied Territories into a democracy for all its inhabitants.

[ 16 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 16 October 2003 10:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
I wouldn't expect you to cry mishei. You would havbe to have feelings for something other than your own prejudices for that.
Oh poor Wingy so flustered that he has no other option but to attack me personally. I understand Wingy...must be tough

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 16 October 2003 11:11 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
The Daily Star

[ 16 October 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


Al, if you don't stop posting that virulent vile antisemitism about 'one state solutions' I'm going to complain...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peacefulnotion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3461

posted 16 October 2003 11:26 PM      Profile for Peacefulnotion     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lux: I may be young but I'm also wise.

Wingy: You also forgot that paragon of Arab virtue King Hussein of Jordan who was responsible for 1970. All your quotes about substituting Jews would be acceptable if they ruled in the same manner as all the examples you gave.

If you want to see unbridled racism, just read the speech of "moderate Muslim" leader Moonbat Muthatir of Malaysia who claims that Jews control the World and seeks ways for the Muslim world to annihilate them. And this man is supposed to be moderate. And this man's speech was greeted with applause. Wingy you would have been cheering Hitler on in WWII as well.

Here's a couple of links describing the Wingly lovefest:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=8&u=/ap/20031017/ap_on_re_as/islamic_summit

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=33727&d=17&m=10&y=2003

[ 17 October 2003: Message edited by: Peacefulnotion ]


From: Guyville | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 17 October 2003 01:04 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Oh poor Wingy so flustered that he has no other option but to attack me personally. I understand Wingy...must be tough

quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
You are an ASSHOLE......ASSHOLE

Yeah, it must be tough....


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 17 October 2003 08:12 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Yeah, it must be tough....


I always regret my anger but remember context is everything. Was Wingy's personal attack jutifably provoked? Not in my opinion. ...Al, could you provide context for my angry outburst so posters can judge the provocation. Thanks.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 17 October 2003 09:27 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Al, could you provide context for my angry outburst so posters can judge the provocation.

Oh my, I just laughed so hard I peed myself a little.

"Al, what was I thinking?!? You do know, don't you?"


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 17 October 2003 10:10 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
too long!
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 18 October 2003 09:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I found this article in the Boston Globe worth sharing.

Wrestling with old demons


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mick
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2753

posted 18 October 2003 09:44 PM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post
This is an interesting piece called FAWDA (the arabic word for anarchy) . It's a revolutionary anti - "two state solution" piece.
From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 18 October 2003 09:45 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
even longer!
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Open Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca