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Author Topic: the Palestinian Revolution and Zionism
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 11 September 2003 07:54 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The IDF is fighting Hamas with guns and tanks. It is killing the organization's leadership and bulldozing their houses. None of these tatics seem to be working. Innocent isrealis are still dying, the country is still an economic ruin and Palestinian zealots still tell their followers that Isreal must be destroyed.

The main reson this conflict continues is because both sides are blind to a fundamental truth You cannot make war on an idea. An idea cannot be destroyed by a war plane or maimed by a suicide bomber. Sharon believes that he can cripple Hamas by killing as many militans as humanly possible, but evan if the milita is crushed the idea of the Palestinian Revolution would remain.

Sheikh Ahmad Yassin(Is he still alive?)
Believes/believed that Isreal must be destroyed, but even that happened, The Philosophy of Zionism would still remain. Many Isreali refugees would express a desire to go back and re establish a jewish state in Palestine. They probably would do so, and the whole conflict would start all over again. What would happen if Isreal was conquered by its arab neighbors? I don't know enough about the conflict to sort out what if scenarios.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 November 2003 05:39 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This brings up a book I saw: The New Anti-Semitism.

Discuss.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 02 November 2003 06:25 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ugh. Did you actually read that book, Doc? I don't think I could. Sounds positively vomitous.

"Phyllis Chesler" isn't, by any chance, a pseudonym for "Margaret Wente", is it? Sounds like the type of puke she'd spew.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 November 2003 06:58 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I read portions of it. It's got a rather strident tone, but I think books like that should be discussed and debated, if only to see whether or not people like her are correct in some of their assertions or no.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 02 November 2003 11:33 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree. And I admire your intestinal fortitude.

Personally, though, I've been exposed to enough of this "You oppose Sharon, ergo you're anti-Semitic" nonsense to last me a lifetime. I don't think I could take any more of it than I see every day already.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 03 November 2003 07:02 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
This brings up a book I saw: The New Anti-Semitism.

Discuss.


I certainly didn't mean to endorse the policies of Ariel Sharon. I sincerely apologize to anyone who may have thought this was the case.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 November 2003 09:09 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*grin*

I was just reminded of it and thought that since this thread discussed Zionism, I might as well mention a related piece of literature.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 November 2003 09:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Chesler is actually a respected left wing feminist who has written extensively on sexual abuse and other women's issues. As usual without thinking and only because she happens to be supportive of the State of Israel you immediatley condemn her.

Here are some articles for you blinkered ideologues to look at:

Chesler 1

Chesler 2

Chesler 3

Chesler 4

Chesler 5

I can go on and on but hopefully this will be enough to put an end to your ignorance on Chesler.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 November 2003 10:07 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I did notice she liked to wave her feminist and leftist credentials in the book. That didn't stop her from trashing Arabs, for one thing.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 03 November 2003 10:24 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As Mark Twain wrote, "Against a diseased imagination demonstration goes for nothing."
From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 November 2003 10:28 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are you calling me a liar?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 November 2003 10:29 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
I did notice she liked to wave her feminist and leftist credentials in the book. That didn't stop her from trashing Arabs, for one thing.

So you read the book Doc? Where exactly does she "trash" Arabs?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 November 2003 10:32 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, come off it. I read the part in the book where she goes "today, Ghenghis Khan has megabombs, Attila the Hun has biological and nuclear weaponry."

If that isn't trashing Arabs by making references to the 'Asiatic hordes' metaphor (never mind that neither Genghis Khan nor Atilla the Hun are of Arabic descent), I don't know what is.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 November 2003 10:44 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee Doc, maybe she was talking about the only country in the Middle East with nukes, etc...
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 November 2003 10:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Oh, come off it. I read the part in the book where she goes "today, Ghenghis Khan has megabombs, Attila the Hun has biological and nuclear weaponry."

If that isn't trashing Arabs by making references to the 'Asiatic hordes' metaphor (never mind that neither Genghis Khan nor Atilla the Hun are of Arabic descent), I don't know what is.


So if they are not Arabs how can she be trashing them?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 November 2003 10:49 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Right Mish, she had Mongolia and Hungary in mind.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 03 November 2003 10:57 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
That's about the flimsiest case of "Arab trashing" I've ever seen.
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 04 November 2003 02:15 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If thats what you call Arab trashing, Chesler is pretty bad at it.

Imagine trying to be antisemetic by pointing out the fact that Rome was not a very good place to live if you were not a citizen...

But this is a dead horse. How can anyone reasonably deny that peace is the answer? Its the terms of that peace that cause disagreement, not the need for peace itself.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 04 November 2003 05:03 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
So if they are not Arabs how can she be trashing them?

*WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!*

Holy crap! That one sailed all the way over to the end of the Andromeda Galaxy!

Way. to. miss. the. fucking. point.

Here's a hint for you people:

1. The book is entitled "The New Anti-Semitism".
2. The section I read that text in had to do specifically with the Israel-Palestine situation.

What's the conclusion?

DINGDINGDING that's right folks, she is probably referring to the Arabic populations in the Middle East. (Never mind that Iranians technically aren't Arabs, what's a few factual inaccuracies when you want to trash them by discussing the fact that the Pakistani government has The Bomb, and Iran is on the way to developing a nuclear infrastructure, and of course Iraq is supposed to have had all sorts of WMDs, including bioweapons and nukes.)

[ 04 November 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 04 November 2003 03:36 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post
Drconway, when you're in a hole stop digging. Bluster and Bombast only make it worse.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 04 November 2003 03:58 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I feel like joining this thread just to comment on the tones of people's posts, but on second thought, that seems so contrary and immature.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 November 2003 04:27 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Chesler is an interesting woman, a real toughie from the first feminist wave I knew, although from the commercialized USian face of that wave, which has been such a problem to the more practical-minded, not to mention Canadian, among us.

I'll put that into little words: she's into advertising herself, and she's learned that in the U.S., one advertises successfully only by exaggerating.

While one is often grateful to such people for popularizing important causes, one is always cautious about taking them seriously intellectually, since they have usually already made the Faustian bargain -- sold their brains for the fame and the money. So sad.

If you read Mishei's Chesler 4 link above, you will see the problem. She could have turned that into an interesting meditation on everyone's culpability as overgeneralizers -- I mean, she got started down that path.

But then she just collapses and does the familiar apologetic for Israel, which goes: You think Israel is bad? See how much worse everyone else is!

This is neither a helpful nor an intellectually respectable stance to take. IMHO, of course.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 05 November 2003 12:57 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EarthShadow:
Drconway, when you're in a hole stop digging. Bluster and Bombast only make it worse.

I don't see you denying that Chesler is an even better expert at the bombast and bluster.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 05 November 2003 01:03 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
IMHO, of course.
Of Course


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 06 November 2003 03:22 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Crom forfend someone should have an opinion around here.
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 06 November 2003 03:32 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't see you denying that Chesler is an even better expert at the bombast and bluster

How funny that the people who's sensitive widdle feewings get hurt at being indirectly accused of anti-semitism are so comfortable hurling the "anti-arab racist" accusation around, with the flimsiest of pretexts.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 November 2003 03:36 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, here it is. The other Chesler thread. We have two of these, one in News (?) and one here. Tsk, tsk.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 06 November 2003 03:40 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How funny that the people who's sensitive widdle feewings get hurt at being indirectly accused of anti-semitism are so comfortable hurling the "anti-arab racist" accusation around, with the flimsiest of pretexts.

An example of this would be...?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 November 2003 07:05 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It does not matter Sarcasmobri. Racists are usually comfortable hurling any smear around while. You will notice white supremacists always defend the right to free speech while demanding their targets for hatred be silenced.

I think the anti-Arab racists are much the same.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 06 November 2003 07:37 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
There ya go right there Sarcasrobmi. Mr Wing -"you're a racist!" -nut himself pipes up right on cue.
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 06 November 2003 07:47 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, you are the one acting just as Wingy planned...
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 06 November 2003 07:52 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Hey Courage, just because I think you're a pompous buffoon doesn't mean I hate Arabs.
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 07 November 2003 10:48 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see no reference to anyone on this board in Wingy's post. He's speaking of a large subset of racists. Probably the sort you'd find posting on that other board more than here.

Seriously, I've had my doubts about a poster or two here. I've seen some who are clearly antisemitic, and some who are clearly anti-Arab. These few usually get shouted down and banned for their hatred quickly when they start with their crap. This business of looking for the 'stealth' racists is tiresome and unproductive. They likely don't exist. Even if they do exist, insulting an entire group (leftists on this board, or for that matter leftists in general) won't weed out any of the supposed racists. It'll just turn that group against the insulter, making people take him less seriously. The only purpose for such a wide smear can be to sidetrack progressive arguments, or possibly to shut down debate altogether. It is now, and always has been, a tactic for dishonest debaters.

People can see arguments from more than one angle without always needing to take sides, or to hate the group who are (in their opinion) in the wrong. The current USian government has been in the wrong about everything since taking power (IMAMOO). Yet I don't hate Americans...I don't even hate Republicans, misguided though they are. Israel is brutally oppressing the Palestinian population, and must stop. Yet I don't hate Jews. Suicide bombings are morally bankrupt and politically unproductive. Yet I don't hate Arabs. Is it possible that one can hold contrary opinions to a specific group without harbouring bad feelings towards that group? Why, yes it is! Quelle surprise, non?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged

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