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Author Topic: You Can't Make a Deal with the Dead
John K
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posted 09 September 2003 11:22 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post
As we brace for the predictable Sharon government response to today's deplorable suicide bombings, an interesting perspective from the Guardian:

quote:
Kevin Toolis
Wednesday September 10, 2003
The Guardian

For a walking dead man, Hamas leader Ismail Abu Shanab was unimpressed by the assassins who would one day come for him. "I am not afraid," he said as we sat drinking tea in his Gaza City home. "If the Israelis want to kill me, they will. We live in war, but the Palestinians are tough enough to confront the huge power facing them. We are not afraid to die."

In terms of the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas, Shanab was a pragmatist, credited with having helped to broker the seven-week Palestinian ceasefire. His conversation was peppered with hints that Hamas' rejectionism towards the state of Israel was tradable for withdrawal to the 1967 borders.

Shanab met his predicted end under a hail of Israeli rocket fire two weeks ago in Gaza City. His death was the 138th "targeted killing" of Palestinian militants by the Israeli military since 2000. Since Shanab's immolation, Israel has stepped up the killing game against Hamas, culminating in the failed strike against the paraplegic spiritual leader of Hamas, Sheikh Yassin, last weekend. The total is now around 150 and rising.

But then so is the overall casualty count: 2,600 Palestinians and 840 Israelis. Hamas appears undeterred by the attrition campaign against its leadership. The materials for suicide vest bombs come cheap, around £30, and there is an endless army of Palestinian volunteers to wear them. In classic counter-insurgency warfare terms, the Israeli level of casualties, one in four, remains unsustainably high.

And as the lessons of Ireland show, Israel's counter-terrorist strategy against Hamas's political leadership is pointless and counter-productive. Like many ageing warriors, Ariel Sharon is caught up in an old war; he is re-enacting his own 1970s colonial-style pacification of Gaza and, as he notes proudly in his autobiography, the "killing of 104 terrorists" in seven months.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,1038892,00.html

From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 09 September 2003 11:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see ..Israel targets terrorists and Hamas murders babies...yes that's fair.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 10 September 2003 12:10 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I am sure you can do better then that. Palistinian babies are terrorists but not Israeli babies?
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 September 2003 12:54 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Palestinian babies will someday grow up to be terrorists.

Sharon is merely being pragmatic.

[ 10 September 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


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John K
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posted 10 September 2003 01:02 AM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, that's not my point at all.

I deplore the suicide bombings as well as the Sharon government's response. To further quote from the article.

quote:
You cannot negotiate with dead men. MI6 and, eventually, the British government recognised that a political struggle requires a political solution. However brutal the IRA's day-to-day terrorism, a strong, coherent republican leadership was in the strategic interest of the British state.

That fundamental insight still appears to be lacking in the Middle East conflict. If a peace process is serious, each side must accept the other as they find it rather than remould their enemies into a more compliant state by assassination and political diktat.

Is Israel a safer place now that Ismail Abu Shanab is dead? Is Hamas now more likely to accept the Israeli point of view? Does Sharon think there are no other Palestinian leaders to replace him?



From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 10 September 2003 01:02 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
I see ..Israel targets terrorists and Hamas murders babies...yes that's fair.

What a terribly stupid statement, even for you...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 10 September 2003 01:16 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
If those politicians, both Israeli and Palestinians , realy are concerned about the killing of the innocent, they would go around without bodyguards and soldiers to protect themselfs from their mistakes, like most of us. Maybe then they would appreciate the need to be social with each other.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 10 September 2003 02:50 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

(Is it just me, or did the sad panda get smaller?)

[ 10 September 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 September 2003 11:52 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Guardian reporter concludes that "there is no military solution to the conflict," and in the sense he means, I agree with him.

On both sides, the gloves are off again, and the war will resume. The war will stop only when

1. enough ordinary people on both sides get tired of the killing; or

2. the international community (and I don't mean the U.S.) marches in to separate them.

I can't see anyone on the Israeli side with the subtlety needed to do what the British did with the Irish Republicans. It just isn't there.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 10 September 2003 12:15 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

What a terribly stupid statement, even for you...



Of course the killing of innocent Israelis by Hamas murderers is to you "stupid"

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 September 2003 12:21 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Of course the killing of innocent Israelis by Hamas murderers is to you "stupid"


Huh?

I should have thought that it would be to you too, Mishei -- ?

Innocent Palestinians have also died in these tit-for-tat attacks -- a 12-yr-old boy, eg.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 10 September 2003 01:02 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:


Huh?

I should have thought that it would be to you too, Mishei -- ?

Innocent Palestinians have also died in these tit-for-tat attacks -- a 12-yr-old boy, eg.



It is stupid Skdadl. I know this is a passionate and painful issue for many , myself included. The fact that Palestinian families suffer horrendous tragedy when a child becomes a victim of an Israeli raid against Hamas terrorists tears at my soul.

Israel is trying to defend its people from cold-blooded killers. Killers who purposely plan to take the lives of innocent Israelis in resteraunts and cafes. The IDF tries to plan its attack against identified Hamas leaders. That innocence become victims is a horrible tragedy. War against terrorists is a dirty business. I pray that innocents on both sides are not victims while Israel and the PA attempt to ferret out the killers who would wage this terror.


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skdadl
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posted 10 September 2003 01:10 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Personally, I am ceasing to find any of these discussions useful. I am expecting a new spate of revenge killings on both sides, and I see no variable at the moment that would interrupt the cycle.

I know what should be done, but I don't see that it will happen.

Some possible wild cards that might ignite the international community? eg:

1. Sharon's cabinet finally decides to kill/imprison/exile Arafat?

2. A renewed IDF campaign throughout the occupied territories? Massive destruction and killing?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 10 September 2003 01:27 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Political problems require a political solution. Violence begets violence, and does nothing to address the hatred and inequality which breed suicide attacks.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 10 September 2003 01:52 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The problem lies in the ludicrous power imbalance between the two sides. Israel has one of the strongest armed forces on Earth and controls the land in question. The Palestinians lack any organized force to speak of, and lack the means to engage in any meaningful armed resistance. Therefore, they are forced in engage in the ultimate tactic of the weak, suicide bombing. Israel can use all the force it wants, but that will not eliminate the suicide bombings.

That is why it is incumbent on Israel to take the first meaningful step. As I have suggested before, it must withdraw from the west bank and gaza and turn control over to an international force. Such a force would police the territories and pave the way for an independent Palestinian state. This piece takes a somewhat similar viewpoint:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A34857-2003Sep6?language=printerwashingtonpost.com

[ 10 September 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 10 September 2003 01:59 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just out of curiousity, what if Israel were to do this, but the killings continued?

It seems to me that every time there's been any kind of ceasefire, there's a return to the cycle when some extremist decides that a ceasefire isn't acceptable. If Israel pulls back, but the bombings continue, what would you recommend as a next course of action?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 10 September 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Just out of curiousity, what if Israel were to do this, but the killings continued?

It seems to me that every time there's been any kind of ceasefire, there's a return to the cycle when some extremist decides that a ceasefire isn't acceptable. If Israel pulls back, but the bombings continue, what would you recommend as a next course of action?


What does Israel have to lose at this point? It is "supposedly" there for security. Is it secure? Should the suicide bombings continue, which I doubt, the world would see that the Palestinians are not serious about peace. And Israel has the option of telling the security force to get out, the way Nasser did in '67, and reoccupying the land. Things can't be much worse than they are now, and I believe with an international force in place they will get considerably better.

[ 10 September 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 10 September 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 10 September 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 10 September 2003 02:24 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair enough.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 10 September 2003 04:02 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
they are forced in engage in the ultimate tactic of the weak, suicide bombing

The ultimate tactic of the cowardly maybe...


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 10 September 2003 04:41 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
THe ultimate tactic of the oppressed . . . some may want to believe that Israel is justified in their oppression, but that doesn't change the fact that they are oppressing the Palestinians, and an oppressed people will take whatever measures they have at hand to get back at their oppressors!!

On a slightly different subject, correct me if I'm wrong, but there is an argument that goes something like this:

THe IDF is better than Hammas because they don't delibertly attack innocent civilians . . . now Hammas has little military opportunity to be as "nice and caring" as the IDF, so they do what they have to, attack Israel in gerneral!

An unfortunate reality that both sides kill innocent people, but the "evilness" seems to be defined by the right based on the technology available to each side.

Now on the other hand, when we are talking about killing children, neither the IDF or Hammas target children specifically . . . but in the last few years, I recall at least two cases where some extremist Israeli groups were twarted and some had some "success" in their attempt to murder Palestinian children as they went to school!!

Just a little info for any of those who are still interested in measuring which side is "more evil"!!

[ 10 September 2003: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 10 September 2003 09:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:

Now on the other hand, when we are talking about killing children, neither the IDF or Hammas target children specifically . . . but in the last few years, I recall at least two cases where some extremist Israeli groups were twarted and some had some "success" in their attempt to murder Palestinian children as they went to school!!

Just a little info for any of those who are still interested in measuring which side is "more evil"!!

[ 10 September 2003: Message edited by: No Yards ]


You are living on Mars not Earth.

Hamas doesn't deliberately target children?????...PULLEASE

What about the Hamas terrorist who broke into a home in Hebron and murdereed a mother and her two children ages 5 and 8?

What about the Hamas suicide bombers who walk into resteraunts filled with children and their parents murdering them without care?

What about the Hamas suicide bombers who ignite themseleves in crowded Israeli markets where children are invisible only to the blind and hateful murderers that they are.

Please either go back to Mars or retract this very ignorant statement.

BTW, yes there was some Israeli extremist that "planned" to hurt Palestinian children and was thwarted by Israeli police which is exactly what a civilized society is suppose to do. Could you please tell me specifically of the other Israeli extremist action in which Palestinian children were murdered.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 10 September 2003 11:29 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, the sad panda re-appearance was supposed to tell you people something:

These discussions generate more heat than light and for that matter it appears that both sides (the IDF and various Palestinian-Arab groups like Hamas and so on) in the Israeli-Palestinian battle are dug in and prepared to duke it out till the end of time.

How do you un-fuck a situation like that? Seriously. How do you untangle such a screwed-up situation???


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 11 September 2003 10:41 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A successful Israeli extremist attack directed specifically at children!!

What? You say no one actually died in the blast?? Yes, but that was not because Israel civilized society thwarted anything . . . it was just good luck on the Palestinian side.

Look, I'm not advocating that one extremist side is better than the other, but the truth is that the morality of the sides is being measured by the technology available to those doing the murdering.

Israel has the better technology, that seems to have some people believing their murders are of a higher moral standard!!

The way I see it, you apologists for murder need to get off the fence . . . either murder is murder, whether it's a lone terrorist/freedom fighter bent on attacking the enemy, breaking into a home and killing all living there, or a army/death squad general ordering a "targeted" missle attack into a busy square ignoring that their actions will likely kill many more innocent that "guilty" people!!

Maybe you would rather declare that you are at war with Palestine?? In that case, then as they say, "all's fair" . . . and neither side is guiltiy of anything but defending their homelands!!

In either case, you're equally guilty/innocent!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 11 September 2003 11:42 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
[QB
What? You say no one actually died in the blast?? Yes, but that was not because Israel civilized society thwarted anything . . . it was just good luck on the Palestinian side.

QB]



In fact it was my recollection that Israeli Police thwarted the attack.

Look, the death of innocent people is soul destroying. But it is clearly Hamas policy to target innocent Israelis. Despite the innocent deaths that have occurred during Israeli attacks on Hamas terrorists the IDF do not target innocent civilians. That some are killed is horrendous and I for one get sick when ever I read about another innocent life taken.

And yes stop the terror and get back to the peace that should be the motto here.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 September 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is a discussion board, Mishei, not a site for raising mottos or swearing oaths.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 11 September 2003 12:22 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Despite the innocent deaths that have occurred during Israeli attacks on Hamas terrorists the IDF do not target innocent civilians.

You mean they didn't level a whole apartment block just to get one terrorist? Gee, I must be mistaken!


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 11 September 2003 12:41 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
This is a discussion board, Mishei, not a site for raising mottos or swearing oaths.
Oh sorry Sherriff Skdadl. Perhaps you should report me to the moderator because I transgressed your rules.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 September 2003 12:55 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I almost never report anyone to the moderator, and I don't set any rules for anyone but m'self.

I am a loyal person, though, and I do not like to see others bullied or intimidated into saying or doing things they don't want to say or do. I can get quite fiercely protective, actually, of other babblers when someone tries to make them line up in straight rows.

sk "not a sheriff; more a mama" dadl


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 11 September 2003 01:20 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Of course the killing of innocent Israelis by Hamas murderers is to you "stupid"

Actually, yes; among other adjectives I could think of...

Just as the killing of innocent Palestinians by IDF murderers is, to me, "stupid", among other choice adjectives...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 11 September 2003 02:53 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

In fact it was my recollection that Israeli Police thwarted the attack.

Look, the death of innocent people is soul destroying. But it is clearly Hamas policy to target innocent Israelis. Despite the innocent deaths that have occurred during Israeli attacks on Hamas terrorists the IDF do not target innocent civilians. That some are killed is horrendous and I for one get sick when ever I read about another innocent life taken.

And yes stop the terror and get back to the peace that should be the motto here.


Your recollection seems to be wrong. Did you not read the article I linked?

If firing missles into a crowed square to kill one "terrorist" who you believe is driving his car in the area at the time can be considered "NOT" targeting innocent civilians, then it should be equally acceptable to blow ones self up in a resturant where there is likely an IDF member breaking bread.

I really really can't understand why some people think that murder in their name is better than murder in someone elses name?? It just blows me away that people can actually think that way!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged

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