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Author Topic: Jerusalem bus explodes, 20 dead
skdadl
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posted 19 August 2003 05:39 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Islamic Jihad responds to last week's assassination of one of their militants.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Foxer
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posted 19 August 2003 06:02 PM      Profile for Foxer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Damn. Sometimes i wonder if there's any 'right' side over there anymore. If it keeps up, i don't think there'll be anyone left either.
From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 August 2003 06:22 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Depressing. So sorry to hear that.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 19 August 2003 07:00 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
These homicide bombers are cowardly evil lunatics who kill indiscriminately.
Must have been looking like peace was in the air again.

Maybe its time to take the leash off Israel and help her (Israel) rid the world of these terrorist vermin - when will the world say enough is enough to Hamas and the like.


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satana
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posted 19 August 2003 07:04 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
fucking, dirty politics. we're all cannon fodder.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 19 August 2003 07:04 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Maybe its time to take the leash off Israel and help her (Israel) rid the world of these terrorist vermin - when will the world say enough is enough to Hamas and the like.

Well that helps.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 19 August 2003 07:18 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
No, I suppose it doesn't help the situation, but lets face it the 'Palestinians' don't want peace, they refuse to accept a State of Israel. Their maps show Israel as part of 'Palestine' - and each time there is a step towards peace, they sabotage it.

The Israelis are as sheep being slaughtered.

As Golda Mier said: there will never be peace until the Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israel.

[ 19 August 2003: Message edited by: celtica ]


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lagatta
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posted 19 August 2003 07:26 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dear troll, why did you put "Palestinians" in quotes? Are you denying their existence as a people?

Suicide bombings targeting civilians are morally wrong and politically stupid. But Palestinians have been disenfranchised and pushed off their land for 55 years.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 19 August 2003 07:32 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
Whats a troll ?

At the moment no - there never was a Palestine, the land should be given back to Jordan, who (along with other arab states) should take them in.

Palestine was the word used by the Romans to the Israelis.

However, I accept that there eventually has to be a state of Palestine in order for there to be peace, but this won't happen until they accept the right of Israel to exist.


From: Colbourne | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Foxer
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posted 19 August 2003 07:34 PM      Profile for Foxer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lagatta - don't get mad, this is an honest question, but I was under the impression that palistine wasn't actually a country in the past, but more of a region. I'd heard that it wasn't really a state - just as isreal wasn't before the jews managed to bring about its' creation. So i suppose 'palastine' (quotes) may refer to the fact that it's kind of theoretical. I mean, isn't that what they want to create, an independant nation of palistine? or am i entirely wrong?

Edited - celt got his post in as i was posting, so i hadnt' seen that.

[ 19 August 2003: Message edited by: Foxer ]


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lagatta
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posted 19 August 2003 07:38 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just about 2000 years of historical inaccuracy - the Romans and the ISRAELITES. Israelis are citizens of the modern state founded in 1948. Most hailed from Central and Eastern Europe at that time. No relation to the Israelites of yore.

Thanks Foxer, it could be an honest question. I don't really care about whether Palestine was a country, or whether Israel remains a separate nation-state or joins in a single secular state with Palestine. I care deeply about people being killed and pushed out of their homes and villages.

There were PEOPLE living there in 1948 when they were pushed out of their homes and villages, off their farms. I know some of them. They probably defined themselves more with respect to their own village and kinfolk than anything else, just as Jewish folk in Chelm or wherever would have, except up against anti-semites. Those PEOPLE were cruelly treated. They were sacrificial lambs in the Western world's attempt to "solve" the Jewish DP problem by exploiting a Third-World country, instead of taking responsibility for the survivors of their own racist madness in Europe.

[ 19 August 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 August 2003 07:42 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The argument that other "Arab states" should take the Palestinians in is racist.

The presumption behind that argument is that they're all Arabs anyway -- who can tell the difference, eh? -- so it doesn't matter where you put them. It doesn't matter where they have lived for generations; it doesn't matter what was taken from them. Just ship 'em off to them other A-rabs.

Feh.


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worker_drone
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posted 19 August 2003 08:19 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
20 killed, including children, over 80 wounded. Whoever did this...what a despicable coward.
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celtica
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posted 19 August 2003 09:51 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
I take exception to that remark. Now I know for sure, that the word racist no longer has any meaning. It is simply a tool used by left wingers to stifle dissent and debate.
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Michelle
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posted 19 August 2003 09:58 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You mean you weren't sure about that before today? Nah, celtica, I have the feeling you've known that "for sure" for a good long time before coming onto babble.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 19 August 2003 09:59 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I take exception to that remark. Now I know for sure, that the word racist no longer has any meaning. It is simply a tool used by left wingers to stifle dissent and debate.

Don't change the subject. skdadl's right that your "let the Arab countries take 'em" is based on the assumption that "they're all alike anyway; what does it matter where they live."

[ 19 August 2003: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 19 August 2003 10:43 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
I said:
"the land should be given back to Jordan, who (along with other arab states) should take them in." and now thats somehow racist ? Give me a break - you are way off base.

I could make an assumption from reading some threads that many of you are anti-semitic.

The name "Falastin" used by Arabs today, for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name. Its the Arab pronunciation of the Roman "Palaestina".

Is it possible to discuss issues here with which you disagree without being called these names.

[ 19 August 2003: Message edited by: celtica ]


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Mishei
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posted 19 August 2003 11:18 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There are 20 people murdered and dozens more injured, among them, many young children and even babies.

We don't know how many of the victimms are Jews or Muslims or Christians and frankly it doesn't matter. Death seems unable to recognize anyone.

All we know for sure is that the planners of this mass murder are evil. They are enemies of peace and agents of despair.

Instead of arguing over names of places let us think tonight of all the grieving mothers and fathers; lovers, husbands and wives...and most of all let us think of the children


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 August 2003 12:18 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The name "Falastin" used by Arabs today, for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name. Its the Arab pronunciation of the Roman "Palaestina".

So what? The Romans likely got their word from "Philistia."

The British called the area under their Mandate, "Palestine." And they and the French invented place names such as "Trans-Jordan," "Lebanon," "Iraq," "Koweit" and "Syria" for the Arab lands they siezed from the Ottoman Empire.

Under the Ottomans, the areas now known as "Palestine," Lebanon," "Jordan" and Syria" were all generally known by the Arabs who lived there as "Syria."

Applying Euro-centric names to places, and claiming that peoples did not exist because they do not conform to your particular concept of nationality is questionable to say the least.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 20 August 2003 02:27 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei is right. It is clear that the bomber was not working for the interests of Palestinians in general. Why do we have to argue over what to call the region? You can call it f**king Narnia for all its worth, that does not detract from the inhumanity of blowing up a busload of civilians for no reason but to perpetuate violence.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 August 2003 02:53 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why do we have to argue over what to call the region?

Because language defines who lives in the area. Remember Golda Meir's quote about there being no such things as Palestinians? Palestinians are struggling to survive in a world that largely denies their existence. The definitions we use are critical in this situation.

Another of the horrible tragedies in the history of the Palestinians is that the only way they seem to get noticed in the West is by killing themselves.


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josh
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posted 20 August 2003 09:40 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What too many people, here and elsewhere, seem to not want to recognize is that there is a war going on between the Israelis and the Palestinians. The Palestinians, having been denied the traditional instruments of war, are resorting to suicide bombing in response to either attacks by Israelis, the continued Israeli expropriation of land, and the occupation in general.

Any "road map" or other peace plan that does not recognize the obligations of both sides to take meaningful steps to end the conflict will be doomed to failure. Just calling for a ceasefire is not enough because it does nothing to change the situation that gives rise to Palestinian violence. Israel just takes advantage of any ceasefire to continue the occupation and expropriate land.

Nonetheless, the violence on the Palestinian side is more of a public relations setback in the west than is the Israeli violence because the media tends to cover only one side of the violence. This is why Sharon and his ilk secretly celebrate every time there is a suicide bombing.


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Briguy
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posted 20 August 2003 09:57 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is no excuse for this act. Plain and simple. It killed a bunch of civilians, for no other reason than their nationality. Now the Knesset cabinet is discussing response scenarios, which recent history tells us will likely take the form of an equally abhorrent act of revenge. There will be no ceasefire or peace if one side doesn't take responsibility and end the cycle of violence. The revenge-motivated killings, bombings, and military interventions must stop before any peace is possible. Feh. Just reading the news reports around this latest bombing is making me sick to my stomach.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 20 August 2003 10:23 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The problem is, your talking about a scenario involving a conflict of relative equals. In this battle, Israel is an elephant while Palestine is a flea. What do the Palestinians have to fight with to end the occupation. What good would it be for them to stop all violence. It would only keep the status quo intact, namely, the occupation and the land expropriation. That's why Israel must end the occupation for their to be a hope for an end to the conflict.
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SHH
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posted 20 August 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh, your suggestion that there is a ‘war’ underway leaves me short because the Israelis are using a very limited amount of their total ability.

To speculate some, if Americans were being blown-up by Palestinians to the extent the Israelis are, I submit that the death and destruction that would rein down upon them would be to extent that either a) they would go the way of the Aztecs, or b) they would, realizing they were about to go the way of the Aztec, surrender unconditionally.

I realize the comparison is lacking on important details, but regardless, the Israelis are holding back by any assessment.

skdadl, rather than racism – which we should be very careful not to allege too quickly, no? – perhaps another more important presumption underlying the notion that the other Arab states should be willing to absorb the Palestinians, is their moral obligation to right a wrong. I mean after filling the Palestinians with false hopes, reneging on promises, and using them as political pawns and stooges for both international and domestic reasons, some might think that’s the least they could do for their so-called brothers.


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josh
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posted 20 August 2003 10:46 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That Israel is not engaging in "total war" is beside the point. They already have control the land. The only thing left for them is to deport or kill all the people.

Comparing Israeli and American responses to suicide bombings is really apples and oranges.


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SHH
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posted 20 August 2003 10:53 AM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, it’s an imperfect comparison but is telling nonetheless.

If a mugger is at your back with a knife at your throat demanding your wallet, do you give him your wallet or attempt to struggle (which will mean your certain death)? I’d cough-up the wallet.


From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 20 August 2003 11:00 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by SHH:

If a mugger is at your back with a knife at your throat demanding your wallet, do you give him your wallet or attempt to struggle (which will mean your certain death)? I’d cough-up the wallet.


Not sure where your going with that one.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 20 August 2003 11:11 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Supporting ethnic cleansing is about as racist as you can get. Israel is the only state in the region with a moral, and legal obligation to absorb Palestinians. The rest of the world should protect them until it is safe for that to happen. As for the surrounding corrupt, authoritarian states, they only answer to their American and European masters who are the only people who seem to benefit from the continuation of this conflict.

[ 20 August 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


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Mishei
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posted 20 August 2003 11:30 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Nonetheless, the violence on the Palestinian side is more of a public relations setback in the west than is the Israeli violence because the media tends to cover only one side of the violence. This is why Sharon and his ilk secretly celebrate every time there is a suicide bombing.


SECRETLY CELEBRATE!!!! And you have proof of theis SECRET CELEBRATION!!!?? This is nothing short of an attempt at trolling. It is simply poisonous to make such irresponsible insinuations. It is bad enough you claim that Sharon caresless about Palestinian blood now you paint him as a monster who gleefully sacrifices his own people as well. What pure hatred you must have to see only through your prism and then suggest such utter drek.

[ 20 August 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 20 August 2003 11:43 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
SECRETLY CELEBRATE!!!! And you have proof of theis SECRET CELEBRATION!!!?? This is nothing short of an attempt at trolling. It is simply poisonous to make such irresponsible insinuations. It is bad enough you claim that Sharon caresless about Palestinian blood now you paint him as a monster who gleefully sacrifices his own people as well. What pure hatred you must have to see only through your prism and then suggest such utter drek.

[ 20 August 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


All I need to know is to know the Likud mindset. Sharon has used every lull in the violence to take some provocative action which, in turn, leads to violence by the other side. The suicide bombing allows to portray Israel as the helpless victim, to obscure the occupation, the settlements and the land expropriation. Likud propagandists are all over US television taking advantage of the deaths to attack one Palestinian leader or another, and to obscure the real issues in the conflict.

It is no great revelation to say that extremists on both sides are the ones who benefit from the violence. That is why Sharon and his fellow Likudnicks are quite contented with the current course of events.


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Mishei
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posted 20 August 2003 11:45 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you believe that Sharon "secretly celebrates" when Israeli babies are murdered by Palestinian terrorists? Am I understanding you correctly?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 20 August 2003 11:53 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sure in the abstract he regrets the loss of life. But he cannot help but be pleased at the public relations windfall he receives from it.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 August 2003 12:14 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does anyone recall that hours after the Palestinian liberation groups declared a three-month unilateral ceasefire, Israeli helicopters attacked Gaza?

Sharon needs this conflict.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 20 August 2003 12:27 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some people get off on their own anger: psychologically, there is no necessary conflict between fury at the deaths of innocent Israelis and the pleasure that comes to some at the thought of now having an excuse to go on fighting.

Actually, I think the combination of those emotions is more common than not. It is a classic syndrome among control freaks, otherwise known as patriarchs.


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Black Dog
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posted 20 August 2003 12:30 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Israelis are as sheep being slaughtered.

Palestinan deaths (Sept. 2000 to June 2003): 2,046
(MIFTAH)
Israeli deaths (Sept. 200 to June 2003): 814 (Israel Action Committee)

[ 20 August 2003: Message edited by: black_dog ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 20 August 2003 12:33 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Supporting ethnic cleansing is about as racist as you can get.

And yet, when we say that we have to dismantle the settlements in occupied territories, and return them to the Palestinians, what does this mean exactly? Ethnically cleansing the jews out of Palestine?

Celtica's statement was that Palestinian land be handed back to Jordan, and that they, and other Arab states, should take them in. Where is he saying that Israel should seize Palestinian land and forcibly resettle the Palestinians? I think some people here are a little too quick with the racism accusations.

Why shouldn't Jordan and the other Arab states take responsibility for Palestine? Better than having Israel control it. How is that different than the United Nations administering Palestine? The Arab nations are always so helpful to their Palestinian brothers when it involves a few grand to a suicide bomber's family, or a boatload of weapons here or there. How about some real help and support?


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 20 August 2003 12:41 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about self-determination?

ll, we are talking about people who have been dispossessed already. Where do you get off talking about others taking care/control of them? Why should they want to submit to the control of USian puppets in their own land?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 20 August 2003 12:51 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
You're so right skdadl. Let's continue the slaughter then! And never stop until it's a pure-blooded Palestinian Arab in charge of water, electrial and sewage systems, and all the other mundane municipal responsiblities which go with keeping a society running!
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skdadl
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posted 20 August 2003 12:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

I don't understand that post, ll -- unless you are saying that you do not believe that the Palestinians have among them people capable of running such mundane municipal systems?

In which case, of course, I would simply reply that you are dead wrong.


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worker_drone
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posted 20 August 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
What I am saying skdadl, is that the Palestinians do not have a functioning beaurocracy, they have an infrastructure in shambles, and a belligerent next door neighbor. Beyond slogans of "self determination" there is a lot of work and support required to administer a country, and the Palestinians need help to get this up and running, whether that comes from the UN, the USians (cute term), or their Arab brothers. That help is not going to come from the Israelis.
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 20 August 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
lefty, I am opposed to the forcible removal of Jewish settlers from any territories, becuase, yes, it is a form of ethnic cleansing. They shouldn't have been allowed to steal the land they did in the first place, but they have been living there for some considerable time and their situation is no different than the settlers living on stolen land inside the "Green Line".

Most of "Israel proper" is stolen Palestinian land. And most Palestinians are refugees because of that. The land occupied by Israel belongs to the Palestinians and Palestinians belong to that land just as much if not more than the Israelis themselves.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 20 August 2003 01:46 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The settlements in Israel allow themselves to be under the jurisdiction of Israeli law, which is effectively an extension of Israel into the West Bank.

They can either be dismantled or they can transfer themselves to jurisdiction under Palestinian Authority law. That would be the same as restoring PA power over the West Bank.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SHH
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posted 20 August 2003 02:10 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My simplese analogy as to the mugger was an attempt to illustrate the position the Palestinians find themselves in. They can continue to entertain the delusional belief that some good will come of this senseless violence, or get a grip on the political and military exigencies that they’re presented with. Does might make right?…of course not. Do forces beyond your control sometimes require making unreasonable and unjust sacrifices? Yup, happens everyday; it's a fact of life.

My advise to the Palestinians would be: Cut a deal, the best one you can given the reality of your situation (give up the wallet) and move on. Your only other option is continued oppression, violence, death, and misery – which is no option at all, IMO.

All the rest is just blah, blah, blah…


From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 20 August 2003 02:36 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
SHH: So, if I may paraphrase, your advice is "Better to live on your knees than die on one's feet?"

Or, to put it another way: bite the pillow and hope for the best.


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Mishei
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posted 20 August 2003 02:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Some people get off on their own anger: psychologically, there is no necessary conflict between fury at the deaths of innocent Israelis and the pleasure that comes to some at the thought of now having an excuse to go on fighting.

Actually, I think the combination of those emotions is more common than not. It is a classic syndrome among control freaks, otherwise known as patriarchs.


That is a much more acceptable explanation than to suggest that Sharon "secretly CELEBRATES" the wanton murder of Jewish babies. That is nothing short of a poisoned and libelous statement.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 20 August 2003 03:17 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
Exactly. I don't see much help coming from the rest of the Arab countries.

Israel cannot take in the refugees, sheer numbers would be the end of Israel. If they gave up their 'right of return', and recogized the right of Israel to exist, they would probably have a state by now.

Doubt that the extremists would stop the violence though, it would continue.

quote:
Originally posted by leftylicious:

Celtica's statement was that Palestinian land be handed back to Jordan, and that they, and other Arab states, should take them in. Where is he saying that Israel should seize Palestinian land and forcibly resettle the Palestinians? I think some people here are a little too quick with the racism accusations.

Why shouldn't Jordan and the other Arab states take responsibility for Palestine? How about some real help and support?



From: Colbourne | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 20 August 2003 03:51 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by SHH:
. Your only other option is continued oppression, violence, death, and misery – which is no option at all, IMO.

All the rest is just blah, blah, blah…


Actually, all the rest is where your bullshit nihilism ends and human dignity begins.

The logic is this - if the darned Palestinians would just stop kicking, folks would get off of their necks....

Sheesh...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 20 August 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
they would probably have a state by now
So they can live like they do in other Arab states? This isn't what this conflict is about.

From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
SHH
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posted 20 August 2003 04:02 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
B_Dog: What is more akin to living on one’s knees: The current Palestinian situation or a peaceful state where your kids go to college instead of “paradise”?

Courage: That’s not the logic at all. I wish you and your wallet happiness in "paradise".


From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 20 August 2003 04:15 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
SHH, you think life is about money. Others believe there is more to life than that.
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
SHH
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posted 20 August 2003 04:34 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uh, santana, the ‘wallet’ was a symbolic analogy. Use your mother’s locket if that works better for you.
From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 20 August 2003 04:58 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
I thought it was about giving up violence, getting their own State, and building a new infrastructure. hence financial help when that happens.

How do they live in other Arab States - I thought Saudi Arabia has only a 4% unemployment rate ?

quote:
Originally posted by satana:
So they can live like they do in other Arab states? This isn't what this conflict is about.

From: Colbourne | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 21 August 2003 06:29 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sharon "secretly CELEBRATES" the wanton murder of Jewish babies.

and by the same token, I think its just as true if not more so that when Israel retaliates and some Palestinians are killed, the folks at PLO headquarters all dance a jig and pass around cakes to celebrate. This means they can continue the war also.

It is clear that many Arabs happily commit suicide in order to prolong the conflict and their families think they go to heaven afterwards. Obviously many Arabs don't think that death is a bad thing at all. i have never heard of Israelis gleefully committing suicide to get their point across since Masada!

When Israelis die from terrorist attacks it is a national tragedy. When Arabs die as suicide terrorists, there is a village fiesta in their hometown! Which side seems to revel more in death and human suffering?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 21 August 2003 06:31 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nice strawman Stockholm.

I guess you've stopped going after the Irish, and are now jumping on the Arabs.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 21 August 2003 06:45 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When Arabs die as suicide terrorists, there is a village fiesta in their hometown!

They're called "funerals." We have similar rites in the West.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 August 2003 08:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When Israelis die from terrorist attacks it is a national tragedy. When Arabs die as suicide terrorists, there is a village fiesta in their hometown! Which side seems to revel more in death and human suffering?

Forgive me, Stockholm, but I have been reading this over and over, trying to see the logic of the connections you are making here ... and I am just plain failing.

I mean, from the examples you provide, it seems to me obvious that the answer to your concluding question must be Israel. I have this sneaky feeling, though, that that is not what you intended.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 21 August 2003 09:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Which side seems to revel more in death and human suffering?

I don't know. Maybe the side that does the most killing?

Whoops, that's probably not the answer you were looking for either, was it?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 21 August 2003 09:47 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, but we don't pay homicide bombers to blow up innocents on a bus. We don't indoctrinate them to hate the Israelis and tell them they will go to paradise if they do this.

Supporting and cheering for Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Arafat's other terrorist groups just fuels their hatred and goal of destroying Israel.
As long as these groups believe that they have western supporters, they will continue to believe that they can bomb, maim, and someday reach their goal of genocide against Israel.

quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

They're called "funerals." We have similar rites in the West.



From: Colbourne | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 August 2003 09:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
These posts as to who revels more in death are despicable. Shame on you all.

I have friends who are both Israelis and Palestinians and I can tell you that they both suffer equally when needless deaths occur.

Michelle and Skdadl, forgive me but I read almost a jocularity that you came up with Israel as your answer. Sorry but that is how it reads to me.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 21 August 2003 10:01 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah, but we don't pay homicide [sic] bombers to blow up innocents on a bus.

So who does? "Suicide" has an air of the terminal about it. How would one get paid for an attack?

Since you raise the subject of payment, do you suppose that IDF members fire rockets into crowded Gaza neighbourhoods for free?

quote:
As long as these groups believe that they have western supporters, they will continue to believe that they can bomb, maim, and someday reach their goal of genocide against Israel.

Credibility of the various claims made here aside, from what I've seen, many Palestinians feel themselves ignored by the rest of the world, which would preclude their belief in any "western supporters."

[ 21 August 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 21 August 2003 10:02 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry. My post was meant to be a sarcastic way of turning Stockholm's claim back on itself, not because I necessarily believe that either side loves to kill.

But I'll tell you this - I believe it's true that Sharon can't help but be pleased on some level whenever a suicide bomber gives him an excuse to crack down on the Palestinians. Yes, I'm speculating, and no, I've never heard Sharon say that specifically. But it sure is to his political advantage whenever something like this happens, isn't it? Which is why I think it's a bad strategy on the part of the Palestinians, but really, what incentive do they have to stop? They don't have any, because as was posted earlier,

quote:
What too many people, here and elsewhere, seem to not want to recognize is that there is a war going on between the Israelis and the Palestinians. The Palestinians, having been denied the traditional instruments of war, are resorting to suicide bombing in response to either attacks by Israelis, the continued Israeli expropriation of land, and the occupation in general.

Any "road map" or other peace plan that does not recognize the obligations of both sides to take meaningful steps to end the conflict will be doomed to failure. Just calling for a ceasefire is not enough because it does nothing to change the situation that gives rise to Palestinian violence. Israel just takes advantage of any ceasefire to continue the occupation and expropriate land.



From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 21 August 2003 10:35 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
The families of these murderers are given payment by Arafat and Saudi Arabia.
Saddam was paying $25,000 out to families of bombers.

quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

[ 21 August 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Colbourne | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 21 August 2003 11:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I heard that $25k thing was an urban legend, especially since nobody ever actually came up with the cancelled checks or the equivalent to prove it, so far as I know.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 21 August 2003 11:51 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The families of these murderers are given payment by Arafat and Saudi Arabia.

Allegation.

Even if this were true, the families could probably use the help, since the IOF destroys their homes.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
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posted 22 August 2003 12:11 AM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But I'll tell you this - I believe it's true that Sharon can't help but be pleased on some level whenever a suicide bomber gives him an excuse to crack down on the Palestinians. Yes, I'm speculating, and no, I've never heard Sharon say that specifically. But it sure is to his political advantage whenever something like this happens, isn't it?

The same way Bush took advantage from 9/11.
quote:

Which is why I think it's a bad strategy on the part of the Palestinians, but really, what incentive do they have to stop?

None. They can either be transfered out or live in some type of bantustan and be thankful to be alive in their squaler or they fight.
To look to conventional leadership at this time is counter productive as they do what they have always done, which is to use any situation, no matter how horrible to their own advantage. This is the rule not the exception.

The fighters on either side have crossed they line where they don't care anymore. Palestinian civil disobediance might have worked at one time but I have my doubts when the IDF can shoot a UN worker and other peace activists.


From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 22 August 2003 02:14 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course the reality is that the only thing these terrorist attacks on Isrealis accomplish is to harden public opinion in Israel against making any concessions whatsoever.

have you ever noticed that, like clock work, every time there is an Israeli election about to happen, there is invariably a gory terrorist attack just before the vote - just to make absolutely certain that Likid will win and that no moderate party can ever form a government in Israel. The Palestinians won't accept half a loaf or three-quarters of a loaf or even 99.999% of a loaf. They want it all or nothing. If Israel makes massive concessions, it just makes it more difficult for them to find an excuse to keep the conflict going. Plus if the conflict ended all these terrorists would have to give up their glamorous lifestyles and apply for jobs as brick layers etc... they would rather play their real, live game of cowboys and Indians and gain some notoriety.

These are the same reasons why there may never be peace in Northern Ireland. There are too many people on both sides of both conflicts who have a vested interest in making sure the fight goes on forever!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 August 2003 02:50 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Palestinians won't accept half a loaf or three-quarters of a loaf or even 99.999% of a loaf. They want it all or nothing.

Where do people get such notions? The PLO recognizes Israel's right to exist. That's 80 per cent of Palestine right there.

They have never been offered so much as "half a loaf" of anything. Barak's "generous" offer would have given them less than 18 per cent of Palestine, and they wouldn't have had complete sovereignty over that sliver of land anyway.
Yale Herald - I looked for an impartial source -other journals cite the same numbers.

quote:
Areas of designated temporary control under Barak's proposal comprise yet another 10 percent of the West Bank. In reality, Palestinians would have been left with control over 80 percent of the West Bank, reducing control of pre-1947 Palestine from 22 percent to 17.6 percent.

What has Sharon, who hasn't stopped settlement construction even though the "Road Map" is supposed to be under negotiation, offered?

Accusations such as "genocide" have been hurled at Palestinians on this thread. I don't understand why. Can't the accusers see who is under attack and being driven out of their homes and off their lands?

Israeli/US propaganda can account for some of the misunderstanding, but not all of it.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 22 August 2003 04:19 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
"Supporting and cheering for Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Arafat's other terrorist groups just fuels their hatred and goal of destroying Israel." (Celtica)

But what motivated them to come in existance in the first place? Could it have been an injustice?

And who fuels the hatred? An army of occupation and oppression, a wall that will virtually bury the Palestinians alive, Isolation and lack of support. To name a few.

[ 22 August 2003: Message edited by: Bubbles ]


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 22 August 2003 09:10 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
The Palestinians won't accept half a loaf or three-quarters of a loaf or even 99.999% of a loaf. They want it all or nothing.

Can you remind me of the time when they were offered 99.999% of the loaf? It's slipped my mind.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 22 August 2003 11:09 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And who fuels the hatred? An army of occupation and oppression, a wall that will virtually bury the Palestinians alive, Isolation and lack of support. To name a few.


and what fuels the "army of occupation and oppression"?, constant terrorist attacks by organizations who will settle for nothing less than having very Jewish Israeli thrown into the sea; shells being lobbed at Israelis etc...Israel isn't occupying the territories because they feel like being a bunch of meanies. The reality is that every single time that Israel withdraws, the result is more terrorist attacks! The obvious message to Israel is, the more you make concessions, the more suicide bombers will strike. The Israelis then draw the logical conclusion that the only way to stop the terrorfism is to re-occupy.

Does anyone seriously think that a unilateral withdrawal by Israel from all the occupied territories would bring us any closer to peace? NO, the Arabs would just use the territory as a base to launch ever more vicious terrorist attacks into Israel proper.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 22 August 2003 11:23 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"the Arabs..." ???

Stockholm, you must learn to write -- and think -- more precisely.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 22 August 2003 11:27 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Can you remind me of the time when they were offered 99.999% of the loaf? It's slipped my mind.

Didn't they used to have 100% of the loaf in 1966 or so?

quote:
In the spring of 1967, the Soviet Union misinformed the Syrian government that Israeli forces were massing in northern Israel to attack Syria. There was no such Israeli mobilization. But clashes between Israel and Syria
had been escalating for about a year, and Israeli leaders had publicly declared that it might be necessary to bring down the Syrian regime if it failed to end Palestinian commando attacks against Israel from Syrian territory.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/palestine/israelioccupation.html


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 22 August 2003 11:34 AM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
These homicide bombers are cowardly evil lunatics who kill indiscriminately.
Must have been looking like peace was in the air again.
Maybe its time to take the leash off Israel and help her (Israel) rid the world of these terrorist vermin - when will the world say enough is enough to Hamas and the like.

The last time I heard someone refer to other people as vermin was when Hitler made the odious and brutal comment that Jews bred like vermin. I find both his and your remarks (similar since you both used the same word) to be overwhelmingly disgusting, odious and profoundly uncalled for. Why you're still posting on babble is beyond me.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 22 August 2003 11:36 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
"and what fuels the "army of occupation and oppression"?, " (Stockholm)

Oil and mostly US support with dollars and equipment. A lifestyle that requires a lot of resources, such as water and cheap labour. A desire to dispocess a people of their land, culture and homes. A desire to have a place of your own at the expence of others.

But Stockholm you are smart enough to know all those reasons yourself. The question is can we as a world community allow these colonial tactics to go on, in light of the desastrous consequences we have seen in the past of this 'egocentric policy'?


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 22 August 2003 11:47 AM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Didn't they used to have 100% of the loaf in 1966 or so?

No. 100% of the loaf would be the whole region, Israel and Palestine included.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 22 August 2003 11:52 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually since present-day Jordan is about 70% of the land mass of the historic province/mandate of Palestine, I assume that 100% of the loaf could only mean the overthrown of the monarchy in Jordan, the annhilation of all Jews in Israel and a new "Palestinian" super-state from the Meditterranean to the Iraqi border.

Why don't the Palestinians demand their land back from Jordan?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 22 August 2003 11:54 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oil and mostly US support with dollars and equipment. A lifestyle that requires a lot of resources, such as water and cheap labour. A desire to dispocess a people of their land, culture and homes. A desire to have a place of your own at the expence of others.


This sounds like a perfect explantion of why we of European descent occupy the First Nations lands of North America. If a new native terrorist groups started blowing up the TTC at rush-hour and demended that all of North America be put solely under aboriginal control, what would you say that we should do? Should we all take boats back to Europe?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 22 August 2003 12:12 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's a thought, isn't it? I used to enjoy imagining the look on Margaret Thatcher's face as the Scottish diaspora returned from Canada ... Yee hee hee.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 22 August 2003 12:14 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No. 100% of the loaf would be the whole region, Israel and Palestine included.

But on this very thread it's claimed:

quote:
Where do people get such notions? The PLO recognizes Israel's right to exist. That's 80 per cent of Palestine right there.

If the vast majority of Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist, then why would they need to have Israel as well as Palestine in order to have 100%? What was so intolerable in 1967 that they had to take up arms? My understanding is that at that time Palestine was quite prosperous and relatively peaceful... so why didn't they sit back and enjoy it?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 August 2003 12:20 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who, sit back and enjoy what?

Israel attacked Egypt, Jordan and Syria in the Six-Day War. The propaganda since then tells us that "The Arabs" were preparing to throw the Israelis into the sea.

quote:
Actually since present-day Jordan is about 70% of the land mass of the historic province/mandate of Palestine,

Wrong. Again, where do you come up with this stuff?
Have you ever looked at a map?

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 22 August 2003 12:33 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel attacked Egypt, Jordan and Syria in the Six-Day War.

And prior to that they hadn't been attacking Israel in any way... had they? (I posted a link to an article from Palestinecenter.org that discusses some events leading up to the 6 days war and it mentions "Palestinian commando attacks against Israel from Syrian territory.").


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 22 August 2003 12:35 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
etc...Israel isn't occupying the territories because they feel like being a bunch of meanies.

You're right - they're occupying them in order to expand Zionist settlement into as much territory between the Mediterreanean and the Jordan as possible. They are occupying them because giving up the territory would mean losing control of 'ancient Judea and Samaria' the supposed hub of Biblical Israel. And they are occupying them in order to control a massive population of refugees and displaced persons (many of them so due to actions taken by Israeli forces in 1948) and to ensure that any possibility of development of Palestinian society or statehood is dictated from the Israeli cabinet and not from Ramallah.

That they have to be 'meanies' in order to acheive these goals is quite natural. It is very difficult to achieve this kind of thing without a lot of violence and poor behaviour.

quote:
The reality is that every single time that Israel withdraws, the result is more terrorist attacks!

Israel never REALLY withdraws. In fact, the pattern is something like this: Israel is reported to be 'withdrawing' from certain cities and towns. The troops pull out and redeploy just outside of the towns, however creating strategic points of control over particular resources and Palestinian movement - in effect, they create a seige situation. Still further, Israel never really addresses the problem of illegal settlements and outposts - which are never 'withdrawn'. As counterpoint to your garbage I only offer the one and only serious attempt (if we can call it that) of Israel to withdraw from Palestinian territories during the Oslo period. In fact, for the longest while, terror attacks were few and far between. It wasn't until Israel failed to implement basic withdrawls and changes in the nature of their military action that the attacks began again.


quote:
Does anyone seriously think that a unilateral withdrawal by Israel from all the occupied territories would bring us any closer to peace? NO, the Arabs would just use the territory as a base to launch ever more vicious terrorist attacks into Israel proper.


Just a nation of 'terrorists' eh? Your racism is showing Stockholm.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
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posted 22 August 2003 12:44 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just a nation of 'terrorists' eh? Your racism is showing Stockholm.

I've seen worse things written about Israel and Israelis and i have NOT been one to accuse the authors or anti-semitism - as tempting as it has been.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
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posted 22 August 2003 12:47 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Does anyone seriously think that a unilateral withdrawal by Israel from all the occupied territories would bring us any closer to
peace?

I think this is a salient question. Is anyone gonna answer in the positive? Would you gamble the life of a loved one on it?

While I disagree entirely with most all of what Israel does "on the ground", in a day-to-day way, I'm also not sure what everyone believes Israel should have done in 1967, and how they believe that pulling out and going home will bring about a sudden, lasting peace.

If unconditionally ending the occupation wouldn't bring about a lasting peace then why not advocate something that would?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
SHH
rabble-rouser
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posted 22 August 2003 01:01 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They have never been offered so much as "half a loaf" of anything. Barak's "generous" offer would have given them less than 18 per cent of Palestine, and they wouldn't have had complete sovereignty over that sliver of land anyway.
Lemme ask a question, Mr. Bong: Whatever the merits of previous offers, do you think the Palestinians are likely to get a ‘better’ deal by killing Israeli civilians? Yes or no?

From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 22 August 2003 01:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Who, sit back and enjoy what?

Israel attacked Egypt, Jordan and Syria in the Six-Day War. The propaganda since then tells us that "The Arabs" were preparing to throw the Israelis into the sea.

Wrong. Again, where do you come up with this stuff?
Have you ever looked at a map?


Yes it is true Israel attacked Egypt

after it blockaded the Gulf of Aquaba and the Straights of Tiran. This was an act of war.

As well, most historians agree that Jordan was warned by Israel in advance (by diplomatic note...although Dr. Michael Oren disputes the fact that the note was even received) not to enter the war. Jordan attacked Israel and Israel retalliated.

Syria was also first to open up a front in the North.

[ 22 August 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 22 August 2003 01:34 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Stockholm

If you had completely read my post then you would have understood that I am not in agreement as to what has happen to the aboriginal people that used to live on the current territory of Canada. Colonisation was a big injustice, and most of us realize that now, and are prepared to deal with it. Maybe we do not have the violence that you see in the former Palestine because we are not treating the aboriginals, first nation people, as the Israelies are treating the Palestinians. If I put my place up for sale a first nation person is not legally hindered from buying it, they do not need identity papers, no check points, no restricktions on their travel or discriminating marriage laws, and the list goes on. I am not suggesting that all injustices have been dealt with, and obviously more has to be done but Canada treats their original people a lot better and in a far less oppresive way as Israel does.

Sure there are Palistinians that would like all the Isrtaelis to leave, but if you check some of the discussion forums in Israel you will soon dicsover that there are also Israelis that would like to see all Palestinians exiled.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 August 2003 01:45 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Lemme ask a question, Mr. Bong: Whatever the merits of previous offers, do you think the Palestinians are likely to get a ‘better’ deal by killing Israeli civilians? Yes or no?

I'm not sure why you're asking me this question, Mr. H., as I haven't advocated suicide bombing, but no, of course not.

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 22 August 2003 02:00 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Colonisation was a big injustice, and most of us realize that now, and are prepared to deal with it. Maybe we do not have the violence that you see in the former Palestine because we are not treating the aboriginals, first nation people, as the Israelies are treating the Palestinians.

The only reason that Canada treats aboriginal people arguably better than Israel treats Palestinians is NUMBERS. Aboriginal people make up less than 5% of the population of Canada so we can afford to be generous. If they were 50% of the population we would probably have a South Africa-style apartheird policy here.

The only reason there are so few aboriginals in Canada is because our ancestors committed a virtual genocide of them. Something Israel wisely never even contemplated doing to the Palestinians.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 22 August 2003 02:00 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Have you ever looked at a map?

I saw plenty of maps during my time in the middle east. Hard to find Israel on any of them though.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 22 August 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I saw plenty of maps during my time in the middle east. Hard to find Israel on any of them though.

Did you look in the sea?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 22 August 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
Oh here we go again -

definition of a racist---anyone on the winning end of an argument with a liberal.

Why I'm posting? I thought at first this was a discussion group for all political views, not just left wing. However, I'm wrong, it appears to be only for those who condone terorrism and and wish to see the end of Israel. That would happen if the 'right of return' was ever granted.

I'm deeply disturbed at the pro terrorist, anti Israel - not to mention the insinsuations and name calling when someone doesn't have that point of view. Anyone who straps a bomb on himself with the end view of killing countless of innocent lives, or uses some other method is vermin.

Just what you expect Israel to do when this happens I don't know. Would you sit back quietly and watch your people be blown up. I think not.

Maybe you should have a disclaimer on your web site:

radical left wing opinions only please - no others need apply


quote:
Originally posted by evenflow:

Why you're still posting on babble is beyond me.


[ 22 August 2003: Message edited by: celtica ]


From: Colbourne | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 22 August 2003 02:14 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
There are large parts of Canada where the aboriginals are in the majority. I could be wrong but thought that in the prairies the aboriginals make up just about 50%. I guess we should be building huge apartheid walls a la Israel and not even attempt to deal with the problem as man to man.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 22 August 2003 02:19 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There are large parts of Canada where the aboriginals are in the majority. I could be wrong but thought that in the prairies the aboriginals make up just about 50%. I guess we should be building huge apartheid walls a la Israel and not even attempt to deal with the problem as man to man.

Not even close!!! I think that Sakatchewan and manitoba may be the most aboriginal provinces in Canada and even there we are talking about less than 10% of the population.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 22 August 2003 02:20 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Did you look in the sea?

That's a dirty colonialist lie Magoo! The Arabs never wanted to drive the Jews into the sea! They wanted to drive them to the sea. For a picnic. And they weren't even going to ask for gas money!


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 22 August 2003 02:54 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id=2915D2AD-9A4C-4E6F-87CE-9622734A956A

Interesting article here:

Islamic group funded terror from Ontario: CIA
Saudi aid organization


From: Colbourne | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 22 August 2003 03:00 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by celtica:
[QB]Oh here we go again -

definition of a racist---anyone on the winning end of an argument with a liberal.


I take offense to that - I'm no f%cking milquetoast liberal...

Second, racism is the wanton essentialisation of cultural characteristics in the form 'they do it because they are Arab/Jew/Black...' Stockholm's statement to the effect that 'the Arabs' will simply use their state to continue 'terror' attacks against Israel is painting all Palestinians (in fact all Arabs) as a group of terrorists hell bent on the destruction of everything Jewish. When we use innaccurate and inarticulate language such as this, we invite criticism. You seem reasonably clever, celtica, you should see the difference.

However, you don't, because you are too busy touting the standard Revisionist Zionist line of the Likudniks and their ilk, calling it 'reasonable' while merely dismissing as 'hard left' any opinion which disagrees as though the oppobrium reserved for the 'left' in your head is enough to make your case.

It isn't.

quote:
However, I'm wrong, it appears to be only for those who condone terorrism and and wish to see the end of Israel. That would happen if the 'right of return' was ever granted.

Nonsense. What might end is Israel as a certain kind of state: an ethnocratic state desperately trying to implement the same discriminatory ethnocentric policies which were the cause of so much Jewish suffering in Europe. The irony would be delicious if it weren't for the terrible consequences for both Israeli and Palestinian societies. As I have said before, and most of the 'hard left' here would agree, the question is not W(h)ither Israel? The question is What Israel? The societal changes required to bring about the end of the occupation and the dismantling of the settlements are changes which would help Israel to come out of it's ethnocentric stupor and become a progressive modern state. In fact your 'realism' (I suspect you would call it such as most of your ilk do) is nothing but the most base ideological justification for a policy which is failing to bring Israel security, prosperity, or peace with it's neighbours and the Palestinians. A truly realistic assessment of the situation reveals that it is just this forcing of the ideological (the settlements, Israel's discriminatory legal and institutional systems) against the most stubborn of realities, namely, the (pre)existence of a massive non-Jewish population on the territory desired for Israeli control which is the lynchpin of much of the violence.

quote:
Anyone who straps a bomb on himself with the end view of killing countless of innocent lives, or uses some other method is vermin.

Yes, perhaps. As is someone who stops ambulances with birthing mothers or injured children from getting to hospitals. Or who wantonly fires rockets and bullets into crowded neighbourhoods. Or who holds hundreds of thousands of people under seige and arrest in order to protect the expansion of colonial settlements on territory where others used to live until their houses were bulldozed.

quote:
Just what you expect Israel to do when this happens I don't know. Would you sit back quietly and watch your people be blown up. I think not.

And there you have the beginnings of understanding the Palestinian response to Israeli state terror. You're so close to recognising them as humans reacting as humans do to attack. I suspect you won't be able to complete the move of fully reconstituting them as complete human subjects, so ingrained it would seem is your view of them as violent thugs and 'terrorists'.


quote:
radical left wing opinions only please - no others need apply

Other opinions are welcome, celtica, but when you come spouting rote Revisionist Zionist garbage that might as well have come from the mouths of Israel's chief propagandists, you should expect a strong response around these parts. Come strong, or don't come at all.

[ 23 August 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 22 August 2003 03:25 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
radical left wing opinions only please - no others need apply
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other opinions are welcome, celtica, but when you come spouting rote Revisionist Zionist garbage that might as well have come from the mouths of Israel's chief propagandists, you should expect a strong response around these parts. Come strong, or don't come at all.


I don't know what Celtica is complaining about. There are plenty of people who are "leftwing" in the context of Canadian politics but who are pro-Israel and they regularly post on rabble. The most cursory examination of any of these strings will show that.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 22 August 2003 03:45 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps Celtica is mixing up babble and the Vancouver IMC. Despite the fact that Vancouver is pretty much on exactly the opposite side of the earth as Israel and Palestine, they're obsessed with MidEast politics almost to the exclusion of all else, and posters there have begun to refer to "the illegitimate military-industrial state sometimes called 'Israel'", and such. Also there's a huge war between the so-called "Zionazis" and the "terrorist supporting Pro-Palestinians" to get each other somehow banned from an unmoderated board.

Vancouver has troubles on the East Side, squatters in the park, the Olympics on the way, and Gordon Campbell for Premier, but if you check the "latest comments" page, 29 of 49 articles, or 60% of threads are MidEast related.

Wanna see people -- on both sides -- who take it all just a little too seriously, go there.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
SHH
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posted 22 August 2003 03:48 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm not sure why you're asking me this question, Mr. H., as I haven't advocated suicide bombing, but no, of course not.
Thank you Mr. Bong, we apparently agree, that justified or not, understandable or not, the current modus operandi will fail to bear fruit (ie, a ‘better’ deal). I can only speak for myself, but when my methods prove to fail me, I reassess, and adjust my approach to one more likely to yield the best result possible given the circumstances.

I saw a recent poll that claimed two-thirds of the Palestinians want peace. So, is it time to reassess? I'd say, yes, even a few decades late perhaps.


From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 22 August 2003 04:13 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who was it who defined insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"?
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 22 August 2003 05:24 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
I heard that $25k thing was an urban legend, especially since nobody ever actually came up with the cancelled checks or the equivalent to prove it, so far as I know.

I don't know for sure if the "legend" is true or not, but I do know it (and several other stories about how Arafat and Saddam were providing funding to certain "terrorist" groups) was reported by the Palestinian based Washington Times reporter who was later exposed as being a British reported based in London, making up stories from his London flat!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 22 August 2003 05:27 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Who was it who defined insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"?

Are you refering to the suicide bombings or the occupation??


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 23 August 2003 01:45 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Both, really. I was born in 1967, so this has basically been going on for my entire life.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 August 2003 03:14 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Israeli government, on the other hand, was enraged that its plan to bring about the political and military demise of the radicals was being derailed. It clearly determined to provoke Hamas and Islamic Jihad by assassinating their leaders, even though the two had called off their attacks. As surely as the suicide bomber himself, Sharon and Mofaz were responsible for the deaths and injuries in the Jerusalem bus attack this week, and now by their incursions and and yet another assassination they may well have destroyed the Palestinian ceasefire.

From the hard left Media


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 24 August 2003 12:33 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, there are reasonable posters here, yourself included, not all are pathalogically anti-Israel.

I don't know any Zionists, I'm neither Jewish nor 'palestinian' but for the life of me, I fail to see how anyone can side with Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or any other terrorist group.

I would bet my last dime that even if there is a peaceful solution eventually, these groups will not give up their committment to be rid of Israel. There is absolutely NO condoning the bombing of busloads of innocent people.

Maybe Israel should respond in kind, not with a homicide bomber, but with a like amount of explosives on some palestinian buses, or whever the terrorists live. Would that be more acceptable ?

I don't know the Vancouver group you mention, do you have a link ?

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Perhaps Celtica is mixing up babble and the Vancouver IMC. Wanna see people -- on both sides -- who take it all just a little too seriously, go there.

From: Colbourne | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 August 2003 12:38 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by celtica:
I fail to see how anyone can side with Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or any other terrorist group.


Celtica: name a babbler who has "sided with" Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or any other terrorist group.

quote:
Maybe Israel should respond in kind, not with a homicide bomber, but with a like amount of explosives on some palestinian buses, or whever the terrorists live. Would that be more acceptable ?




And note well, celtica: advocating violence is a violation of babble policy. You've just stepped over the line there, celtica.

[ 24 August 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 August 2003 01:26 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl, I suspect that celtica was setting up a hypothetical, although the effect is to make it a rhetorical question in bad taste.

I doubt celtica intended it to be a "support of violence" thing.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 24 August 2003 08:15 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, I didn't and don't support violence, it was rhetorical.

There is no moral equivalency to encouraging your children to kill themselves and others.

"When they love their children more than they hate Israel, maybe there will be peace."

http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgaryherald/columnists/story.asp?id=58DA7E3F-9300-4B6C-8325-F836E290CF9B

"In a January 2002 interview, Yasser Arafat gave this message to Palestinian children: "The child who is grasping the stone facing the tank, is it not the greatest message to the world when that hero becomes a Shahid
The new Palestinian textbooks, which went through a five-year rewrite, contain no maps of Israel -- the entire territory of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza is depicted as Palestinian. One televised speech from Arafat declares, "In the coming days we will have half the land, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, but there is also a third stage in which we will take all the land."

And so it goes on..

quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
skdadl, I suspect that celtica was setting up a hypothetical, although the effect is to make it a rhetorical question in bad taste.

I doubt celtica intended it to be a "support of violence" thing.



From: Colbourne | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 August 2003 08:45 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Four Dead in Israeli Airstrike

quote:

Earlier Sunday, the Israeli army chief Lt.-Gen. Moshe Yaalon said "every member of Hamas is a potential target for liquidation."

"Liquidation." The word has such a...familiar ring to it.

[ 24 August 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 26 August 2003 03:56 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by celtica:
[QB]Thank you, I didn't and don't support violence, it was rhetorical.

There is no moral equivalency to encouraging your children to kill themselves and others.


It's true. That's why Israel, too, should stop this practice. Sending 18 yr. old kids into a colonial occupation and to beseige and kill people is not good for their development.

quote:
"When they love their children more than they hate Israel, maybe there will be peace."

http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgaryherald/columnists/story.asp?id=58 DA7E3F-9300-4B6C-8325-F836E290CF9B


quote:
"In a January 2002 interview, Yasser Arafat gave this message to Palestinian children: "The child who is grasping the stone facing the tank, is it not the greatest message to the world when that hero becomes a Shahid"

So, let's see - the Biblical David can toss stones at the giants, and he is revered throughout Israeli society as a hero. But if a Palestinian child fights a tank which is part of an aggressive occupation army, and Palestinian society reveres his actions as a symbol of heroic sacrifice, they are child-abusers.

Right. Heaven forbid that the Palestinians struggle BECAUSE they love their children and don't want them to live under the boot of a foreign soldier, or have their houses bulldozed, or be told that they can't leave their home because of a curfew, or watch their friends get blown up by helicopters. No, it must be that the Palestinians are a barbaric, ammoral lot without any concern for their own offspring - and what could be less 'natural' than that. They are a kind of supernatural or subnatural evil, I suppose.

You really are a piece of work.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 26 August 2003 04:10 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:
You really are a piece of work.
I agree! There is absolutely a morel equivilance between the occupied and the occupier. To even suggest that Israel is not killing innocent children, their hopes, dreams and aspirations is such hyperbole, that it has no place in any effort to find a long lasting peace. That article is an enemy to peace as Shapiro is too.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 26 August 2003 04:12 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by celtica:
[QB]

I don't know any Zionists, I'm neither Jewish nor 'palestinian' but for the life of me, I fail to see how anyone can side with Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or any other terrorist group.


Your statement holds a hint. The hint is in the apostrophes around 'Palestinian'. Apostrophes which seem so to say 'the so-called Palestinians'. As though their very presence which you affirm when you paint them as evil child-abusing radical terrorists can be denied the next by withholding from them the basic right to name themselves and narrate their national story.

You seem to be a fan of Golda Meir, so perhaps you recall her infamous statement to the effect that "Palestinians don't exist". Your apostrophes are part and parcel of this absurd denial of the physical, political, and spiritual presence of a massive Palestinian Arab population in that region. It is this amazing repression of a basic fact, and all the military and political might which have gone into trying to enforce this repression, which drives many Palestinians into organisations like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. In another post you blame Palestinian textbooks for not showing Israel on their maps, and yet here you perform the stunning move of 'vanishing' an entire population of people - millions of them - as subjective human agents free to designate themselves and determine their mode and manner of existence.

[ 26 August 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 26 August 2003 05:04 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is no moral equivalency to encouraging your children to kill themselves and others.

That is correct, those parents (the USA) should not be encouraging (providing money, military and political support) their children (Israel) to be killing themselves and others.

moral equivalency my eye . . . maybe someone can explain to me why a poor people fighting against violent oppressors need concern themselves with moral equivalency??

If there were true "moral equivalency", then Israel would put down all their fancy American weapons and throw stones nack at the Palestinians!! Where is the "moral equivalency" of answering childrens stones with bullets??


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 26 August 2003 05:20 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If there were true "moral equivalency", then Israel would put down all their fancy American weapons and throw stones nack at the Palestinians!! Where is the "moral equivalency" of answering childrens stones with bullets??

Good point. Brilliant post by Courage as well.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 26 August 2003 05:59 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted earlier in this thread by al-Qa'bong:

Applying Euro-centric names to places, and claiming that peoples did not exist because they do not conform to your particular concept of nationality is questionable to say the least....

Because language defines who lives in the area. Remember Golda Meir's quote about there being no such things as Palestinians? Palestinians are struggling to survive in a world that largely denies their existence. The definitions we use are critical in this situation.



Thassokay. Just call me "chopped liver."

[ 26 August 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
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posted 26 August 2003 08:32 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Thassokay. Just call me "chopped liver."

[ 26 August 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


I saw that post, but I thought that such a good point could use repeating...

Just call me 'biter'...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 26 August 2003 09:04 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post
If the political leadership of the State of Israel is trying to achieve peace and security, why does it continue to engage in extra judicial killings and collective punishment (e.g. destroying the homes of the families of suicide bombers), which are not only clear violations of international law, but also serve to enhance the esteem of Hamas and Islamic Jihad in the eyes of many Palestinians, while undermining the moderate Palestinian leadership?

Why did the State of Israel continue to engage in extra judicial killings of Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders despite the fact that these admittedly extremist organizations had reluctantly agreed to stop suicide bombings and adhere to a ceasefire with Israel?

Within this context, I agree with Martin Woolacott in the Guardian article posted above, that Ariel Sharon's government does bear some responsibility for the Jerusalem bus bombing. Unless the State of Israel - with its overwhelming military superiority - starts taking some bold steps to achieve peace, this tit for tat violence will go on forever.

A final question. Two questions really. You can see I've been waiting to get a few things off my chest. Why does the Israeli leadership think that killing the leaders of extremist Palestinians organizations is some sort of zero sum game? We kill all the leaders and end the problem. Can't Israel's leaders see the blind fury and rage on the faces of Palestinian children at Abu Shanab's funeral which will guarantee not only an endless supply of suicide bombers but also future extremist leaders who want to drive all Jews into the sea?

[ 26 August 2003: Message edited by: John K ]


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 August 2003 12:45 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
119 posts!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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