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Author Topic: `Tourture in Israel has again become routine'
majorvictory
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Babbler # 2878

posted 18 August 2003 01:04 PM      Profile for majorvictory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A report released yesterday by the Public Committee Against Torture claims that the use of torture in the interrogation of Palestinian suspects has increased significantly over the past two years.

quote:
Hundreds of Palestinians were subject to Shin Bet security service interrogations defined
as torture, inhumane or humiliating during each of the first six months of the year, compared to dozens in September 2001, the human rights group
said.

The abuse of Palestinian suspects has worsened and can justifiably be termed torture under criteria established by
international law, according to the report.
Moreover, such use of torture in interrogation
violates a ruling reached by Israel's High
Court in 1999.

"Torture in Israel has once again become
routine," the report's writers conclude. They
charge that Israeli authorities such as the
High Court and attorney general, which are
supposed to monitor the Shin Bet and guarantee
that its interrogation procedures conform with
the law, have failed to discharge such
responsibility. Rather than supervising the
Shin Bet, these authorities have simply rubber
stamped the security service's decisions.

In past months, the High Court rejected all 124
petitions submitted by the committee demanding
that Palestinian suspects be allowed to confer
with their attorneys, the report notes.



From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 18 August 2003 01:18 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
That's deplorable and disgusting. They certainly don't call Sharon 'The Butcher' for nothing, but I refuse to believe that most people in Israel actually support this sort of thing. If international laws and UN resolutions actually applied to Israel, they would have lots to answer for.

I hope this 'new' wave of torture and abuse is put to an end somehow.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 19 August 2003 07:03 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
And the Islamic terrorists don't have anything to answer for ?
From: Colbourne | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 August 2003 07:12 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who said they didn't, celtica?

And what exactly is "an Islamic terrorist"?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 19 August 2003 10:25 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
They would be the likes of Hamas, Al Qaeda - OBL, Arafat, Hezbollah and Palestine Islamic Jihad.
From: Colbourne | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 19 August 2003 10:42 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I smell bananas again.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 August 2003 10:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why would you define them by their religion? They are terrorists, to be sure, but they certainly don't represent Islam. I'm not going to put up with Muslim bashing in this thread - I'm warning you now.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
celtica
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posted 19 August 2003 11:09 PM      Profile for celtica        Edit/Delete Post
So now its Muslim bashing - sheez - you guys are out to lunch...but judging from what I've read here, its okay to bash Israel and Jews.

I defined them as Islamic as we are discussing the middle east are we not? I don't see any protestant or catholic terrorists bombing a bus load of children in Israel.

But let me guess, it would be okay if I bashed Christian fundamentalists.

[ 19 August 2003: Message edited by: celtica ]


From: Colbourne | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 August 2003 11:19 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do a search on my name and see how much generalized Christian bashing I tolerate. Ask Tommy_Paine or DrConway what I have to say about people who write bigoted posts about Christians.

I'm not saying that you have bashed Muslims with your post. I am just warning you in advance that if you want to stick around for long, you'd better not start making generalizations about Muslims being terrorists.

And by the way, it is NOT okay to bash Jews on babble. There have been at least a couple of people banned for doing so. As for "bashing" Israel, people are free to criticize Israel as a political entity. But I'm sure you'd have a big problem with, for instance, people calling certain rogue elements of the IDF or West Bank settlers "Jewish terrorists". And I would agree with you.

[ 19 August 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 19 August 2003 11:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Do a search on my name and see how much generalized Christian bashing I tolerate. Ask Tommy_Paine or DrConway what I have to say about people who write bigoted posts about Christians.

I'm not saying that you have bashed Muslims with your post. I am just warning you in advance that if you want to stick around for long, you'd better not start making generalizations about Muslims being terrorists.

And by the way, it is NOT okay to bash Jews on babble. There have been at least a couple of people banned for doing so. As for "bashing" Israel, people are free to criticize Israel as a political entity. But I'm sure you'd have a big problem with, for instance, people calling certain rogue elements of the IDF or West Bank settlers "Jewish terrorists". And I would agree with you.

[ 19 August 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


For the most part I agree with Michelle. But here is the dilemma.

I have seen the word "Israel" used to describe certain policies of the State of Israel which posters have ascribed as terrorist.

For example the "Israel" Defence Force have been called terrorists and murderers. I am pretty sure the Settlers who have engaged in criminal acts have been referred to by their Nationality "Israeli".

Is that permissable?

So then when people from the Palestinian Authority engage in suicide bombings can they be referred to as extremist "Palestinians"?

If the answer to that is "no" then all adjectives ascribing "National" identification must stop so as not to demonize any national group be they Israelis, Palestinians, Americans, Chinese, Canadians,.............etc


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 19 August 2003 11:56 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess that means that we can't refer to the two sides in Northern Ireland as Catholic and Protestant either! Any suggestions on what else to call them?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 August 2003 12:02 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I guess that means that we can't refer to the two sides in Northern Ireland as Catholic and Protestant either! Any suggestions on what else to call them?
Never mind the Serbs and Croats or the Chechnyans and Russians.or the...

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 August 2003 08:24 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, actually, I don't have a problem with using national identities to identify them, because that's what the dispute is about. The dispute isn't about Islam, it's about Palestine and Israel. And yes, I do realize there IS a religious component to terrorism, just as there is a religious component to Israeli nationalism. But in this case, the main dispute is over land and nationalism, and therefore, referring to the nationality is fine with me. If you want to call a suicide bomber "a Palestinian terrorist" that's fine with me, just as it's fine with me to call some rogue IDF soldier an "Israeli terrorist". You are merely identifying which side of the dispute they are on by saying that.

I know you can say that it's technically correct to call someone an "Islamic terrorist" if the guy happens to be Muslim. But I don't like the idea of defining the person by his religion when the religion is not what the dispute is about. Sure, religion is being used as a weapon in the dispute, but really, it's about the land and nationality.

Please don't tell me that if people started calling every Jewish Israeli who kills someone unjustly during this conflict "Jewish terrorists", or constant highlighting of the Jewishness of people they disagree with in this issue, that there wouldn't be a hue and cry of anti-Semitism forthcoming.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 20 August 2003 10:40 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What about "Islamic Jihad"? That kinda brings religion right back into it, doesn't it?
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 20 August 2003 11:19 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Well, actually, I don't have a problem with using national identities to identify them, because that's what the dispute is about. The dispute isn't about Islam, it's about Palestine and Israel. And yes, I do realize there IS a religious component to terrorism, just as there is a religious component to Israeli nationalism. But in this case, the main dispute is over land and nationalism, and therefore, referring to the nationality is fine with me. If you want to call a suicide bomber "a Palestinian terrorist" that's fine with me, just as it's fine with me to call some rogue IDF soldier an "Israeli terrorist". You are merely identifying which side of the dispute they are on by saying that.

I know you can say that it's technically correct to call someone an "Islamic terrorist" if the guy happens to be Muslim. But I don't like the idea of defining the person by his religion when the religion is not what the dispute is about. Sure, religion is being used as a weapon in the dispute, but really, it's about the land and nationality.

Please don't tell me that if people started calling every Jewish Israeli who kills someone unjustly during this conflict "Jewish terrorists", or constant highlighting of the Jewishness of people they disagree with in this issue, that there wouldn't be a hue and cry of anti-Semitism forthcoming.



I have no problem with your thesis now that I understand the rules. However, Mr. Magoo poses an interesting question which deserves some response.

BTW both Hamas and Hizbollah have a strong extremist Islamic connection. Indeed both groups look to their religious leaders for encouragement as interpreted for them by these leaders within the Koran. Now I am not suggesting that the Islamic interpretation is correct however you cannot simply deny the existance of their brand of strong Islamic influence, can you?

As well, the same mihgt be said for some within the Jewish Settler movement but I think we can agree that these extremists constitute (by deed and number) far less than a whole host of terrorists groups tied directly to extreme Islam.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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Babbler # 3493

posted 20 August 2003 05:27 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
It appears we have gotten quite off topic here. While the discussion that is going on here is a valid one, this thread is about torture in Israel becoming routine again.

quote:
"Torture in Israel has once again become
routine," the report's writers conclude. They
charge that Israeli authorities such as the
High Court and attorney general, which are
supposed to monitor the Shin Bet and guarantee
that its interrogation procedures conform with
the law, have failed to discharge such
responsibility. Rather than supervising the
Shin Bet, these authorities have simply rubber
stamped the security service's decisions.

In past months, the High Court rejected all 124
petitions submitted by the committee demanding
that Palestinian suspects be allowed to confer
with their attorneys, the report notes.


Why aren't the suspects allowed to confer with their attorneys?


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 20 August 2003 06:17 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Evenflow is correct. In fact, the tactic of saying, "And I suppose other people aren't nasty?" is a well-known logical fallacy, known as "tu quoque".

The rise of torture among Israeli forces (and US ones, where the tactic is also on the rise) is deeply disturbing. It's an attempt to reverse the current trend of strong stances versus "crimes against humanity", in exchange with a sort of "situational ethics". The problem with such situational ethics is that everyone thinks that their breaking of the rules is justified. Once you allow that argument, how will you argue to other torturers around the world, "But that's different!"?


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 21 August 2003 01:25 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I still can't get my mind around the fact that Israel's government doesn't seem to care that Israel is starting to look like a Third World country.

[ 21 August 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 21 August 2003 02:18 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Third World country"? I dunno, there are many countries in the Third World that don't use torture.

I believe "banana republic" it the term you're looking for.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 21 August 2003 04:05 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, true, but most banana republics are Third World nations.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 21 August 2003 10:03 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
"Third World country"? I dunno, there are many countries in the Third World that don't use torture.

I believe "banana republic" it the term you're looking for.


Another Troll


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 21 August 2003 11:25 AM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the Israeli government does care to an extent about its international reputation, but its chosen solution under Likud is not to actually correct the abuses, but to (a) hide them, by restricting freedom of the press and international oversight as much as possible, and (b) decry the detractors, accusing them of anti-Israel bias or outright anti-Semitism. Witness the campaign by the current administration in Israel against the BBC when the BBC reported some of these abuses.
From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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Babbler # 3232

posted 21 August 2003 11:32 AM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
The thread title says "t-o-u-r-t-u-r-e" with a U.

At first I thought it read: "tourtière in Israel has again become routine".

I didn't know there were so many Tremblayovitchs and Bouchardskis in Tel Aviv!

Do they also serve ragoût de boulettes, poutine and pudding chômeur on the kibbutzs now?

Oops, sorry for the interruption. We can all go back to the regularly scheduled screaming match about "peace in the Middle East".


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 August 2003 11:46 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ever precious, mimichekele.

We are talking about insults to healthy human bodies on this thread, mimichekele. We aren't discussing typos, or your ego.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 21 August 2003 12:17 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
It seems I was right on target about the "regularly scheduled" screaming match. skdadl stepped right into that open manhole.

If you quickly scan headlines or titles, "tourture again routine in Israel" can look like "tourtière again routine in Israel".

Some people are totally devoid of any sense of the absurd or irony. But then skdadl says she is Scottish and we all know Scottish cuisine is a crime against gastronomic good sense so what would any Scot know about Saguenay tourtière and other fine cooking?

Since everything else has been tried ad nauseam in the Middle East and failed miserably (in fact, only added to the misery for people of that place), mocking the situation, or laughing when given the opportunity might be the only sane way left to react. It does not matter what we do, anyway. Violent people from all the various death cult factions over there will continue to blow up all chances at peace. The more horrific the act, the better they will probably say.

Might as well take our laughs where we can. It's not as if Babble threads are going to stop torture of detainees or the eviscerating of babies on buses.

I don't know why some people spend so much time screaming at each other and insulting each other in the Middle East threads. It's not as if anything is ever going to solve the situation over there. The day the various factions sign a peace deal that everyone agrees is good, an extreme setttler will murder all the Israeli cabinet or machine gun a group of Moslem worshippers on the Temple Mount and an extreme Palestinian Jihadist will bomb a Jewish kindergarden or blow an El Al jet out of the sky and the war will resume.

[ 21 August 2003: Message edited by: Mimichekele2 ]


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
cynic
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posted 21 August 2003 12:56 PM      Profile for cynic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sure only you, Mimi, can find amusement in playing word games with torture. What funny words look like death, rape, occupation, horror, or tragedy?
From: Calgary, unfortunately | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 21 August 2003 01:05 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
[Place icon here for Gallic shrug of the shoulders]

You can write to Amnesty International for info on what to do about torture of Palestinian detainees and that may help the situation.

Death rhymes with meth
Rape rhymes with seascape
Occupation rhymes with syncopation
Horror rhymes with mirror
etc...

OK, back to the pissing contest - you're evil, no your side is evil, no you're evil...


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 21 August 2003 01:05 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
Very bold and welcome comment cynic. Razor sharp.

I do think that mimi's comments would actually be quite funny if it wasn't the idea of real human beings suffering underlying this discussion. Again, its not a thread about peace in the middle east, but rather torture in Israel becoming routine again.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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posted 21 August 2003 01:20 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
You should hear the jokes by the lawyers in the family. One participates in forensic investigations and has on occasion attended autopsies. Another has handled breast implant cases. Another has dealt with air accident cases.

It's called "gallows humour". I guessed incorrectly people were familiar with that type of thing. My mistake.

Anyway, as I pointed out, Amnesty International is probably your safest bet on the torture issue. They know what to do. They can point you in the right direction on how to intervene most effectively, for what that is worth.

And tragedy rhymes with serendipity, among other possible words.


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 21 August 2003 01:22 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
tourtière again routine in Israel".

Poutine ryhmes with routine! You could say "tourtiere becoming poutine in Israel". Those crazy jews...they don't know the difference between tourtiere and poutine!


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 August 2003 01:33 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Some people are totally devoid of any sense of the absurd or irony. But then skdadl says she is Scottish and we all know Scottish cuisine is a crime against gastronomic good sense so what would any Scot know about Saguenay tourtière and other fine cooking?

And some people think they are being funny or witty when they are only being narcissistic or egotistical.

I have never said that I am Scottish. I have said that my dad's family came to Nova Scotia from Scotland in the late C18, and that I am married to a Scot. I have also said that my mum's family came to Medicine Hat from Poland in the late C19. So what does that make me?

Gee: I would seem to be a Canadian.

Scottish cuisine, real Scottish cuisine, is heavily Frenchified -- google "the Auld Alliance" and "haggis" if you need proof.

It is true that imperialism and the Industrial Revolution were hard on most of Scotland and brutalized most working people, their diets along with many other aspects of their once vibrant culture.

As for moi, I have two excellent local sources for tourtiere: when I feel energetic, I make my own; otherwise, I call Daniel et Daniel.

And then I send a PM to audra.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 21 August 2003 01:43 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Every country employs some form of coersion when interrogating criminal suspects. Only recently have international organizations - governmental and non-governmental - attempted to delineate and codify a definition of what coersive tactics constitute "torture". Even under current definitions, most countries use coersion that amounts to torture. Even Canada, who is signatory to the UN Convention Against Torture. So it is pointless, petty, and hypocritical to argue from a standpoint of who tortures and how much worse one state is compared to another.

ALL forms of torture, regardless of by what state or organization within that state, regardless of the crimes the victim is suspected of having committed, are an outrage, are unacceptible, and must be consistently and publically stated as such by private citizens, government and non-government bodies, politicians and the media. Period.

We cannot in any way be said to be "civilized" if we condone, or signify tolerance of by our silence, the state-sanctioned torture of human beings.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 21 August 2003 01:48 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hear, hear, Rebecca!
From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
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Babbler # 3232

posted 21 August 2003 01:56 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
My God, some people just can't seem to rise above the level of personal insults.

skdadl, you can call people egotistical or narcissistic or whatever you want. I do not participate in these pissing contests which seem to take up such a large part of the Middle East threads many of us have (wisely) chosen to boycott. I am here only because I thought I read a thread title that on a quick scan seemed to have something to do with tourtière and Israel and I was intrigued by the seemingly absurb juxtaposition of those two words.

After this, I will go back to staying away from Middle East threads - I now remember why I stayed away: so much negativity and venom from so many people from the 55 different Israeli and Palestinian factions involved. Since I belong to none of those 55 (or is it 79?) factions, and have no reason to, I have no reason to hang around here and get yelled at for a situation for which I am not to blame.

To return to the topic, I can only second what Rebecca West has so eloquently written, and for those interested in Amnesty International's campaign to abolish torture, there are somne very good resources available online at the following address: Stop Torture Campaign

[ 21 August 2003: Message edited by: Mimichekele2 ]


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 August 2003 02:26 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I do not participate in these pissing contests

Which explains, for instance, your insistence on introducing into this thread utterly irrelevant details about both Quebecois and Scottish culture, the implications of which, as presented by you, could only redound to your credit as such a sophisticated person while at the same time making others seem barbarians. (Gk: bar-bar: onomatopoetic -- ie, anything the Greeks couldn't understand.)

mimi, you got a real ego prob.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 21 August 2003 02:39 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I do not participate in these pissing contests which seem to take up such a large part of the Middle East threads many of us have (wisely) chosen to boycott.

Blech.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 21 August 2003 02:45 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hands up, everyone who's never, ever participated in thread drift! Up high now! Anyone? Bueller? Anyone? Anyone?

Honest to Gawd, I have to agree with Mimi on this: this forum is the most gravely serious collection of electronically propagated personal opinions on Babble. It's like everyone here is writing their post while personally standing in front of an Israeli tank or something. Would stopping for all of two seconds and exhaling kill everyone?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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Babbler # 4220

posted 21 August 2003 03:03 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I now remember why I stayed away: so much negativity and venom from so many people

Not sure if I agree on this point. From reading through these thread archives, it seems there's so much negativity and venom from so few people. It's the same posts by the same people, over and over and over again.

So sorry that this thread on torture in Israel got derailed. I'm sure it had many fascinating new facts that last month's thread on Israeli torture didn't cover. Or the thread from the month before that, or the month before, or last year's 35 threads on the same subject.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 August 2003 03:04 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Magoo, you are so right, and I am so deeply grateful to you for coming along to show me the error of my ways.

*kisses*

When mimi first drove this thread off the rails (as it had, of course, been driven several times before), the rest of us simply should have resisted reacting to mimi and proceded on our earnest way. I know that, Magoo. But I needed you to tell me. So I'm grateful. Boy, am I grateful. Together, you and mimi could divert a whole thread indefinitely, couldn't you? Instructing us in etiquette, I mean?

Great to see you taking an interest in the topic, though, Magoo.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 August 2003 03:16 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I may be wrong, leftylicious, but it sometimes seems to me that you may have a soul that is still worth saving.

If so: Abjure now, ll, the spoiled North American gesture towards the Middle East, that faux-sophisticated, world-weary tone you adopt above.

Whether you like it or not, ll, what is happening in the Middle East right now is part of your life. You live as well as you do partly because people suffer elsewhere, notably in the Middle East.

Pretend to be above it all. Do that, and surrender your right to be considered an intelligent and honourable human being. Look at mimi, eg: gosh, but the affectation is all, isn't it? The appearance of sophistication will glide you through so many trendy cafes in Toronto and Montreal and New York and Paris, endlessly -- right up until the day you are sitting in the one that explodes, ll.

Try thinking, ll.

Where do you think this mess came from, ll? The Palestinians did not invent this crisis. We are watching the saddest dead-end of European/North American imperialism played out on sands that are not ours, on bodies that are not ours ... And ignorant twerps here in North America are professing themselves bored with the scene ...

You flourish now because of the misery of people in the Middle East, ll -- and your future depends on what happens to them. Face it, chick.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3232

posted 21 August 2003 03:20 PM      Profile for Mimichekele2        Edit/Delete Post
Man oh man, skdadl.

We just all got back from lunch here at work. The weather outside is broiling so we all drank lots of liquids at the bistro but I certainly don't have THAT much piss (and vinegar and venom and hate) in me.

Wooo... Only confirms why most Babblers stay away (or have been driven away by repeated personal insults) from here.

Anyway, as I said, I suggest people go over and have a look at the Amnesty material on the abolish torture campaign.

After this, since I have no reason to hang around in the Middle East threads, I will leave this space of "debate" to the usual crowd. If you guys like to scream at each other, knock yourselves out.

Peace to all. And "thou shalt not kill".

[ 21 August 2003: Message edited by: Mimichekele2 ]


From: More lawyers, fewer bricks! | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 21 August 2003 03:21 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Amnesty International has a very active Campaign Against Torture, and will apply pressure on states which use torture, but they will not support individuals or groups who advocate using violence as a means of political change.

Case in point, Amnesty Int'l never provided Nelson Mandela with support for all the years he was in prison, because the ANC advocated and perpetrated violent acts as a means of political change.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 21 August 2003 03:33 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
will apply pressure on states which use torture, but they will not support individuals or groups who advocate using violence as a means of political change.

Sounds... consistent of them. Otherwise they'd have to take sides on who's "allowed" to use torture as a means of political change, no?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4098

posted 21 August 2003 04:04 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly, Mr. Magoo, which is why I support Amnesty myself. They don't play games of "It's OK if I do it, but not if you do it," the way most nation-states do. I personally think Human Rights Watch used to be more... mmm... partisan in its criticisms, aiming them preferentially at groups offensive to the West, as opposed to offenses in the West. It's been my impression, however, that they've over time moved to a more "it's always wrong no matter who does it" stance, much like Amnesty.
From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 21 August 2003 04:31 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mimichekele, you never fail to act like an insufferably arrogant professor.

Mishei, Al Q. is about as much of a troll as I am, which is to say, none at all. I'm aware that you don't want to think that Israel has sunk into banana-republicism, but the fact is, it's definitely moving in that direction if it hasn't gotten there already.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 21 August 2003 05:56 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Is Israel making tourtiere out of bananas now? The bastards!
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 21 August 2003 09:58 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I may be wrong, leftylicious, but it sometimes seems to me that you may have a soul that is still worth saving.

And now Skdadl becomes the arbiter of whose soul might be worth saving. Lord have mercy!!


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 August 2003 10:07 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

L'etat, c'est moi.

Apres moi, le deluge.

Et cetera.

('lance, dear, could you mop up the kitty toss-up over in that corner? Ta very much.)

As for the other servants here: Whip them! Whip them!

Yes, Mishei?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 21 August 2003 10:22 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:


Yes, Mishei?


Methinks you are hearing things.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged

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