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Author Topic: New PA textbooks full of anti-Israel propaganda
Mishei
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posted 22 July 2003 11:18 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The more things change the more they stay the same.

PA textbooks

Jul. 22, 2003
Report: New PA textbooks full of anti-Israel propaganda
By SHIRA SCHOENBERG

Advertisement

"O brother, the oppressors have exceeded all bounds and jihad and sacrifice are necessary," reads a line about the Israeli War of Independence, in the "reading and texts" section of one recently introduced Palestinian Authority eighth grade textbook.

Since 2000, the PA has replaced half of the Egyptian and Jordanian textbooks that were previously used in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. According to a report released Monday by the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace (CMIP) on 35 third- and eighth grade PA textbooks, however, the new texts are much like the old.

"With regard to the key elements, the core of the conflict between Jews and Arabs, Palestinians and Israelis, there is no change [between these and the Egyptian and Jordanian textbooks]," said CMIP Vice-Chairman Dr. Yohanan Manor. The textbooks do not live up to criteria recommended by UNESCO, including requirements such as recognition of others' achievements, honest presentation of political disputes, and avoidance of wording likely to create prejudice.

Previous CMIP studies examined textbooks published by the PA in 2002 and 2001 for grades 1, 2, 6, 7, and 11. The texts in the current study were introduced into the curriculum in November 2002 and February 2003 and "there has been no substantial improvement," said Manor. He added that there are a few elements that may herald the beginning of change.

The study shows that there is no recognition in the textbooks of the legitimacy of Israel as a Jewish state. One of the two mentions of Zionism is in a reading in an eight grade text: "The fire of Zionist crime has mowed the Palestinian land." The name "Israel" does not appear on a single map; the entire land is called "Palestine."

This set of textbooks also shows an increase in blame placed on Israel. Previously, Israel was faulted for problems in human rights, the economy, and the environment, but not necessarily domestic Palestinian problems. In this study, an eighth grade civic education textbook asks, "Some of the problems of [Palestinian] family violence emanate from the practices of the [Israeli] occupation and its destructive impact on our society. How?"

In concordance with the refusal to recognize Israel, there is not a single mention in any textbook of the content of the Oslo Accords. The solution to the current conflict is generally described as the "liberation of Palestine" and the return of all refugees to their former homes.

"About one in four mentions of the liberation refers to post-'67 borders," explained Manor, "The other three fourths refer to the situation since the inception of Israel in 1948." Jihad and martyrdom are exalted, as they are in previous textbooks.

Although the textbooks do, for the first time, recognize Judaism as a "heavenly," or monotheistic, religion, there is no recognition of the Jews as a people with any historical, cultural, or religious links to Israel or its holy places. Jews in the present conflict are stereotyped as "oppressors" and "slaughterers."

There are a few positive changes, of which Manor said, "It is difficult to assess the significance."

The new textbooks have broader conceptions of tolerance and pluralism than previous books, although it is unclear whether Jews are included in these notions. A grammar lesson in an eighth grade linguistic sciences text contains a unique statement about the value of life: "It is nice for a man to die for his homeland but it is nicer for him to live for his homeland." There are also a few statements against the use of terrorism against civilians, although these are counterbalanced by adulation of terrorist groups.

Manor, who plans to meet with PA education officials in September, hopes that the study will lead to changes within Palestinian society, as well as discussion in the European Union and other powers. "People need to realize that education is an important element to ensure that the road map will succeed," he said.
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Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 11:25 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess it's a little positive but the first line is very scary. Still more work needs to be done my heart does go out to the Palestinians they have been abused and neglected for so long from their own government.
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Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 11:35 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More interesting facts

quote:
Moreover, as early as three years ago foreign governments offered money to the PA to reprint these old books without the hateful material. The PA turned down the money and refused to reprint them using a variety of arguments, the first of which was: “Don’t get involved in our education - it is our Palestinian heritage.” These hateful Jordanian books are republished today unedited by the PA by choice and the PA must stop passing responsibility onto others for the hate content.

Finally it should be stressed that all the books cited here were written during the most optimistic periods of the peace process, before the violence began in September 2000. They are not a reflection of the war, but were a great contributing factor to the war. The ongoing attempts to defend PA schoolbooks are tragic, as the PA is using these arguments to justify their indefensible hate education, and to refuse to improve their books. The PA is planting the seeds of the next war in their youth, and the defenders of PA hate education, including Israelis, are nurturing those seeds of war.


[ 22 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Mandos
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posted 22 July 2003 11:50 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am personally glad that they don't recognize the legitimacy of Israel as a Jewish state. I don't. The most I'm willing to accept is that it is a fait accompli--but not that it is legitimate. I've said this before.

If that's the biggest complaint about the textbooks, then all of this is just bullying tactics by supporters of Israel to efface history and force Palestinians to accept that what happened in 1948 is fair. I am now rather suspicious (actually, this was long ago a no-brainer) that the goal is not peace/justice, but imposing their view of history on Palestinian education.

We can just as well demand that Israeli Jewish children be taught that they are living in a stolen country (and it would be true, unlike the desires of these Palestinian education-monitoring groups).

Shame on these groups for making demands that the Palestinians falsify their own history. Because that appears to be their major concern.


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Blind_Patriot
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posted 22 July 2003 12:05 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
O brother, the oppressors have exceeded all bounds
Have they not?

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Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 12:07 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are wrong Mandos because they are not only taught that Israel has no legitimacy but that it is O.K. and even necessary to kill Jews.

They are also taught that to kill your self for this cause is the greatest honor of all.

This is what the PA are teaching and it can't be excused or blamed on someone else.

Further more it is one-sided to believe one has right and that the other doesn't, they both have the same rights and therefore a compromise is needed.

Compromise means the Israelis are going to have to give up there dreams of Shcem and Hebron and the Palestinians will have to give up their dreams of Akko and Haifa.

[ 22 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Mandos
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posted 22 July 2003 12:12 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Compromise is one thing, but the fact is that one side clearly doesn't have any inherent right. Compromise is strictly based on a fait accompli--a necessity, I suppose, but without any moral background. That is, any compromise that is made is a gain for Zionism and a loss for the Palestinians, because the Palestinians actually deserve to return to all of the land. This we have repeatedly established on babble.

Yes, some of the complaints about the textbooks may be correct, but look at the FOCUS of the article:

quote:

The study shows that there is no recognition in the textbooks of the legitimacy of Israel as a Jewish state. One of the two mentions of Zionism is in a reading in an eight grade text: "The fire of Zionist crime has mowed the Palestinian land." The name "Israel" does not appear on a single map; the entire land is called "Palestine."

This set of textbooks also shows an increase in blame placed on Israel. Previously, Israel was faulted for problems in human rights, the economy, and the environment, but not necessarily domestic Palestinian problems. In this study, an eighth grade civic education textbook asks, "Some of the problems of [Palestinian] family violence emanate from the practices of the [Israeli] occupation and its destructive impact on our society. How?"

In concordance with the refusal to recognize Israel, there is not a single mention in any textbook of the content of the Oslo Accords. The solution to the current conflict is generally described as the "liberation of Palestine" and the return of all refugees to their former homes.

"About one in four mentions of the liberation refers to post-'67 borders," explained Manor, "The other three fourths refer to the situation since the inception of Israel in 1948." Jihad and martyrdom are exalted, as they are in previous textbooks.

Although the textbooks do, for the first time, recognize Judaism as a "heavenly," or monotheistic, religion, there is no recognition of the Jews as a people with any historical, cultural, or religious links to Israel or its holy places. Jews in the present conflict are stereotyped as "oppressors" and "slaughterers."


All of this appears to be the centre of the complaint, and it is ultimately a demand that the Palestinians surrender their perspective and just claims to the Israeli self-delusion of the empty land.

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Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 12:12 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is the extent which Israel is trying to change or interfere with Palestinians education even the UN thinks they are justified to this extent under the circumstances

quote:
However, Israel reprinted the books without the hate education. In fact, Jordan registered a complaint to the UN charging that Israel’s changing the schoolbooks was a violation of international law, but the UN checked what Israel had done and approved it. The PA has put back into the old Jordanian education all the hate education that Israel had removed.

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Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Israelis and Jews have as much inherit right to the land as the Palestinians maybe even more. And I believe one should not rule over the other.

[ 22 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Mandos
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posted 22 July 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Because the UN recognizes Israel, it can't reasonably object to Israel's rewriting. Nevertheless, the Palestinians have every right and duty to teach, at the very least, that Israel's creation was not legitimate, pace the UN. They have no obligation to accept Israel's rewriting even if the toothless UN accepts it.
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Mandos
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posted 22 July 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One particular group of largely European Jews came up with an ideology that fits directly into the nationalist ideologies in Europe of the day that allowed them to displace an indigenous Arab population. This is old stuff, we've covered this before.

So the Israeli Zionist Jews have as much right to the land as they were able to obtain legitimately without the power of empire and ideology behind them. This is, needless to say, far less than the control they have now, from the sea to the river.


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Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 12:21 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Prove to me that the Palestinians have more right then the Jews. To say such a thing is racist. To delegitimize anyone whether Israeli or Palestinians is racist.

They are both legit that's why compromise is needed.


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Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 12:23 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So the Israeli Zionist Jews have as much right to the land as they were able to obtain legitimately without the power of empire and ideology behind them. This is, needless to say, far less than the control they have now, from the sea to the river.

So your saying what they already owned and brought with cash prior to 1948?


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Mandos
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posted 22 July 2003 12:31 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To say that the claims are both equally legitimate is to me truly deserving of the accusation of moral relativism.

In any case, what they are entitled to is indeed what they already owned (there was, after all, a large and ancient Jewish population already there) and what they took at a fair price without coercion. This last stipulation is somewhat complicated...I exclude certain forms of population engineering experiments by the British empire, etc, that look locally fair but actually use larger social pressures to unfairly skew the demographic composition--and are actually, in the larger scheme of things, coercion.


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Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 12:33 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This doesn't seem to be what the PA think

quote:
Palestinians found to have sold land to Jews will face the death penalty, at least 4 Palestinian land dealers said to have been involved in such sales were murdered.

source 1

quote:
Harbi Abu Sara, cleared of collaboration by the PA two years ago, is shot four times in the head, and the Palestinian media quote security sources as saying he was a collaborator who sold land to Jews, as though that justifies his murder.
Palestinian human rights groups, which have become the watchdog of PA political development since Oslo, become its guard dog when faced with this issue. Though both murders took place in PA territory, they do not call for an investigation because "we have no proof the PA was involved
sorce 2

[ 22 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Blind_Patriot
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posted 22 July 2003 12:34 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Palestinian leaders say Israel's young people are taught that millions of Muslim refugees in occupied territory are non-existent.
quote:
Of course, they (Palesinians) might not like the way we explain how those territories were composed, but they are mentioned [in the texts] very clearly."

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 12:41 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In any case, what they are entitled to is indeed what they already owned (there was, after all, a large and ancient Jewish population already there) and what they took at a fair price without coercion. This last stipulation is somewhat complicated...I exclude certain forms of population engineering experiments by the British empire, etc, that look locally fair but actually use larger social pressures to unfairly skew the demographic composition--and are actually, in the larger scheme of things, coercion.

But not only the British what about the Ottoman and the Roman? They too moved and shifted populations around in order to weaken them. They were no Palestinians in Israel prior to those times. However since they have been there a couple hundred years since the ottoman empire I do believe it would be unethical to transfer them any transfer is unethical. The Palestinian refugees are suffering and need to be compensated but to start shifting populations all over again drastically would be disastrous. Anyways only about 10% really want to return I'm sure something can be negotiated.

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Mandos
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posted 22 July 2003 12:42 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am not clearing the PA of blame here. I never did. I am opposed to such killings...given their context. However, you must read the important qualification about free transactions and power relations that I issued in my post on the matter. That there are other forms of large-scale economic coercion that make some apparently free transactions with Zionists not really free.

For instance, Israel can't, after making life miserable for the Palestinians, claim that it is legitimate to buy them out at a lowlow price. That's just not fair.


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Blind_Patriot
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posted 22 July 2003 12:50 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hebrew-language geography books from the 1950s through 1970s focused on the glory of Israel’s ancient past and how the land was “neglected and destroyed” by the Arabs until the Jews returned from their forced exile and revived it “with the help of the Zionist movement.”

“Our books basically tell us that everything the Jews do is fine and legitimate and Arabs are wrong and violent and are trying to exterminate us,” said Daniel Banvolegyi, a 17-year-old high school student in Jerusalem.


Read It All Here

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Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I went to a public high school in Israel and that sure wasn't what I was taught or the conclusions I came too.

I was taught there were a couple attacks back and forth before 1948 but that a great part of the land was brought fair and square by large donors like Rothschild and the Zionist congress which collected funds.

I was not taught that it was o.k. to kill Palestinians.

I was taught that Jews built up Israel and used ingenuity to make it a modern productive country, but that did not make come to the conclusion that the Palestinians were backward or ignorant.

I was taught in the army restraint and the rules of engagement they were drilled into me. And although I was near some tense areas I pride myself that I never had to point a gun or use it on anyone.

I do admit that there are sometimes soldiers that get out of hand but that is a small ,small percentage out of the whole.


In the army I was taken on educational trips through out Israel to the holy sites of Christians, Muslims and Jews and taught respect and appreciation for all of them.


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Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 01:19 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For instance, Israel can't, after making life miserable for the Palestinians, claim that it is legitimate to buy them out at a lowlow price. That's just not fair.

Once again what about prior to 1948 then certainly the powers were equal.
And what about places like Tel-aviv, that were just a pile of sand.
What about the Jews who were the first to settle outside of the gates of the old city of Jerusalem.


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Mishei
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posted 22 July 2003 01:26 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you Justice for explaining so clearly what Israeli soldiers are really all about. Not that it will mean a fig to Blind or Mandos.

After all they totally reject the Jewish state. That has been their position since the beginning and it has been supported by others here as well. Sad so sad.


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Blind_Patriot
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posted 22 July 2003 02:43 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Thank you Justice for explaining so clearly what Israeli soldiers are really all about. Not that it will mean a fig to Blind or Mandos.

After all they totally reject the Jewish state. That has been their position since the beginning and it has been supported by others here as well. Sad so sad.


How dare you make positive light of the IDF terrorists. We know what they are all about. I never rejected a the state of Israel. There you go again Mishei... your trying to speak for me by twisting my words. Shame on you. You have become a deceiver here on babble.
quote:
After all they totally reject the Jewish state.
Please enlighten us where I said this.

[ 22 July 2003: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]


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Courage
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posted 22 July 2003 02:47 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
[QB]I went to a public high school in Israel and that sure wasn't what I was taught or the conclusions I came too.

I was taught there were a couple attacks back and forth before 1948 but that a great part of the land was brought fair and square by large donors like Rothschild and the Zionist congress which collected funds.


That's a pretty huge oversight right there. In fact, simply overlooking the ethnic cleansing of 700,00 people with concomitant massacres, murders, theft, looting, and other abuses, is, to my eyes, a tacit approval of these activities. Moreover, the Israeli Land Law which was enacted to confiscate Arab territory after the massacres and ethnic cleansing is further evidence of this legitimisation - in practice - of the atrocities of 1948.

It's akin to Russian textbooks not mentioning Jewish Pogroms, or German textbooks not mentioning Jewish pogroms, or Turkish textbooks not mentioning Armenian pogroms, etc. etc.


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Mishei
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posted 22 July 2003 02:57 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
Please enlighten us where I said this.

[ 22 July 2003: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]


Then tell us do you accept Israel as Jewish state ?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 22 July 2003 03:06 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Then tell us do you accept Israel as Jewish state ?

I accept the state of Israel on these conditions:

Pre 1967 borders
Compensation for the RTR
Admission to the wrong doing's comitted in against Palestinians (especially 1947 - 1948)
Total dismantlation of the illegal settlements
reconciliation with their Arab neighbous
A Completely independant Palestinian State.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 22 July 2003 03:07 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BTW,

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
Please enlighten us where I said this.
[ 22 July 2003: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then tell us do you accept Israel as Jewish state ?


You never quoted me on your accusations.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 03:11 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That's a pretty huge oversight right there. In fact, simply overlooking the ethnic cleansing of 700,00 people with concomitant massacres, murders, theft, looting, and other abuses, is, to my eyes, a tacit approval of these activities. Moreover, the Israeli Land Law which was enacted to confiscate Arab territory after the massacres and ethnic cleansing is further evidence of this legitimisation - in practice - of the atrocities of 1948.

First of all I did mention there were attacks. These are not over looked and they are not legitimized they are stated as fact. In fact they are some Jewish attacks and organizations which are scrutinized.

Massacres that is certainly an exaggeration and over statement

Ethnic cleansing is disputable.
It is hard to find any proof if at all that is Israel is totally responsible for the 700,000 refugees. The proof and evidence is very foggy the facts are arguable. Further more Israeli text books do not dehumanize Arabs and you expect them to dehumanize themselves, where is the logic???

Further more the Turkish continue to deny the Massacre of 1.5 million Armenians.
The Germans killed six million Jews how is this comparable???


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Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 03:16 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I accept the state of Israel on these conditions:
Pre 1967 borders
Compensation for the RTR
Admission to the wrong doing's comitted in against Palestinians (especially 1947 - 1948)
Total dismantlation of the illegal settlements
reconciliation with their Arab neighbous
A Completely independant Palestinian State.

I accept that too 100% yet I must stress compensation for Refugees not necessarily returning to their grandparent's home although this can and should be negotiated on an individual basis.
And let's not forget compensation for Jewish refugees. And admission by Arab neighbors in including Palestinians to their wrong doings.


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 22 July 2003 03:18 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I accept the state of Israel on these conditions:

Just out of curiousity, are there any conditions to be imposed on Palestine?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 22 July 2003 03:36 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would stipulate 2 little very tiny conditions

Stop the violence against Israel (I feel by the best way for them to do this is by having one united strong army that has a code of ethics and values it strictly up holds.)

Recognition of an Israelis state along side a Palestinian state.

[ 22 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Blind_Patriot
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posted 22 July 2003 03:41 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Just out of curiousity, are there any conditions to be imposed on Palestine?


ding dong, of course there would be. Constraint, stop retaliation, etc...

however I think they have lost enough.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 22 July 2003 03:43 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
I would stipulate 2 little very tiny conditions

Stop the violence against Israel (I feel by the best way for them to do this is by having one united strong army that has a code of ethics and values it strictly up holds.)

Recognition of an Israelis state along side a Palestinian state.

[ 22 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]



I don't agree with this. It would undermine Palestinians Sovereignty and Independance.
quote:
Stop the violence against Israel

Stop the occupation and settlement expansion.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 22 July 2003 04:08 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:

I accept the state of Israel on these conditions:

Pre 1967 borders
Compensation for the RTR
Admission to the wrong doing's comitted in against Palestinians (especially 1947 - 1948)
Total dismantlation of the illegal settlements
reconciliation with their Arab neighbous
A Completely independant Palestinian State.


So in other words I am right. As it presently stands you do not accept the Jewish state.

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Blind_Patriot
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posted 22 July 2003 04:16 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
So in other words I am right. As it presently stands you do not accept the Jewish state.
No, your wrong.

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Mr. Magoo
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posted 22 July 2003 04:24 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't agree with this. It would undermine Palestinians Sovereignty and Independance.

What do ceasing attacks on Israel and recognizing the existence of Israel as a state have to do with Palestinian Sovereignty or Independence??

quote:
ding dong, of course there would be.

If not the two conditions you disagree with then what?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 22 July 2003 04:34 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
So in other words I am right. As it presently stands you do not accept the Jewish state.


Hang on. Now I'm confused.

Mishei, I feel sure that if certain posters were to refer critically to members of the Israeli administration or military as Jews rather than as Israelis, you would spring forth with a warning.

Or am I wrong? To me the words are not interchangeable. Are they to you? Or are they to you in some people's posts but not in other people's posts?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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Babbler # 3830

posted 22 July 2003 04:36 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

If not the two conditions you disagree with then what?


It should be internationally sponsored and monitored. A joint force would never ever work.

quote:
What do ceasing attacks on Israel and recognizing the existence of Israel as a state have to do with Palestinian Sovereignty or Independence??
Because it was Israel that took that away from them.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830

posted 22 July 2003 04:41 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:


Hang on. Now I'm confused.

Mishei, I feel sure that if certain posters were to refer critically to members of the Israeli administration or military as Jews rather than as Israelis, you would spring forth with a warning.

Or am I wrong? To me the words are not interchangeable. Are they to you? Or are they to you in some people's posts but not in other people's posts?


You see skdadl, Mishei has a double standard, in these matters in order to support the "cause".

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 22 July 2003 04:46 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You see skdadl, Mishei has a double standard, in these matters in order to support the "cause".

seems to me like you are the one with the double standard Israel has to stop the violence against Palestinians and recognize thier rights but they don't have to stop the violence and recognize Israel??? "Talk about double standards."

Anyways Just a reminder the topic was about hate education in school systems it started with the Palestinian but I don't mind it is legitimate to challenge both.

[ 22 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 22 July 2003 05:13 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
[QB] Massacres that is certainly an exaggeration and over statement

You are either a liar, have been lied to, or utterly ignorant. Any of these prooves my point.

The evidence:

Deir Yassin, April 9 and 10, 1948, approx. 200 civilians killed by Irgun and Lehi irregular soldiers. Of them, around 25 pregnant women were cut open to kill the foetuses. Dozens of children were maimed in front of their families.

Tantura - May 22 and 23, 1948: 200 civilians massacred in a few hours.

Baldat-al-Sheik: On the night of January 30-31, 1947, a mixed force composed of the First Battalion of Palmakh and the Carmelie brigade (estimated at approximately 150 to 200 terrorists) launched a raid against the two towns under the leadership of Hayim Afinuam. Taking the homes by surprise as their inhabitants slept, they pelted them with hand grenades, then went inside, firing their machine guns. The terrorist attack led to the deaths of approximately sixty citizens inside their homes, most of them women, elderly and children.

Adwayima - In the words of an IDF soldier: The IDF, captured the village "without a fight. First killed about 80-100 Arab men, women and children. The children they killed by breaking their heads with sticks. There was not a house without dead. The remaining Arabs were then closed off in houses without food and water, as the village was systematically razed"


Safsaf- a Palestinian village- 52 men tied with a rope and dropped into a well and shot. 10 more were killed. Women pleaded for mercy, three were raped, and a girl aged 14 was raped. Another 4 were killed.

These are just a few prominent examples. In dozens of other villages, smaller massacres took place. The MO seems to be to kill a few civilians in order to scare others into fleeing. In the words of one Israeli expert, Uri Milstein:

quote:
"I maintain that even before the establishment of the State, each battle ended with a massacre. . . [The] War of Independence was the dirtiest of them all . . . The idea behind a massacre is to inflict a shock on the enemy, to paralyze the enemy. In the War of Independence everybody massacred everybody, but most of the action happened between Jews and Palestinians. . . The education in the Yishuv at that time had it that the Arabs would do anything to kill us and therefore we had to massacre them. A substantial part of the Jewish public was convinced that the most cherished wish of say, a nine-year old Arab child, was to exterminate us. This belief bordered on paranoia."


quote:
Ethnic cleansing is disputable. It is hard to find any proof if at all that is Israel is totally responsible for the 700,000 refugees. The proof and evidence is very foggy the facts are arguable.

Not if you are at all honest with the evidence. First of all, I suggest you read up on the findings of the UN Conciliation Commission which determined that an estimated 80 percent of the land gained by the Jews was taken by force.
Still further, a considerable amount of scholarship now exists which exposes the policy of ethnic cleansing (sometimes known as Plan Dalet) instituted by Zionist authorities in 1948.

According to Israeli historian Benny Morris:

quote:
“Till then everyone in Israel spoke about Arabs who had just run away in 1948, but there existed no real historical research on it. There were two conflicting propaganda versions, one Arab and another Jewish. As one who received his education in Israel, I thought I knew that the Arabs had ‘run away.’ But I knew nothing else. The Jewish generations of 1948, however, knew the truth and deliberately misrepresented it. They knew there were plenty of mass deportations, massacres and rapes…The soldiers and the officials knew, but they suppressed what they knew and were deliberately disseminating lies.”

From the horse's mouth, David Ben-Gurion in 1948:

quote:
“Regarding the Galilee, Mr. [Moshe] Sharett already told you that about 100,000 Arabs still now live in the pocket of Galilee. Let us assume that a war breaks out. Then we will be able to cleanse the entire area of Central Galilee, including all its refugees, in one stroke. In this context let me mention some mediators who offered to give us the Galilee without war. What they meant was the populated Galilee. They didn’t offer us the empty Galilee, which we could have only by means of a war. Therefore if a war is extended to cover the whole of Palestine, our greatest gain will be the Galilee. It is because without any special military effort which might imperil other fronts, only by using the troops already assigned for the task, we could accomplish our aim of cleansing the Galilee.”

Still further Ben-Gurion said this at another recorded meeting:

quote:
“We have decided to cleanse Ramla.”

On July 12 and 13, 1948, on the direct order of Ben-Gurion, Israeli forces expelled the 50,000 residents of the towns of Lydda and neighboring Ramle. Yitzak Rabin, later to become Israeli Prime Minister, wrote in his memoirs that "there was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the ten or fifteen miles" required to reach Arab positions. Before they left, the townspeople were "systematically stripped of all their belongings," according to an Economist report.

This is just the beginning of the evidence. I am not going to gum-up the bandwith with a treatise on the the expulsion of Palestinians in 1948. It is estimated by Israeli intelligence sources that approx. 75% of the Arabs that fled their homes in 1948 did so due to some form of coercion from Israeli soldiers, irregulars or otherwise.


quote:
Further more Israeli text books do not dehumanize Arabs and you expect them to dehumanize themselves, where is the logic???

I certainly don't expect them to 'dehumanise' themselves. But your claim that they do not dehumanise Arabs is false:

Professor Bar-Tal of the Hebrew University came to the following conclusions regarding Israeli textbooks' portrayal of Arabs:

quote:
The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as ‘robbers,’ ‘bloodthirsty,’ and ‘killers,’”.

Similar results were found for Israeli childrens books, and a study of grade 4-6 children conducted by Adir Cohen published as An Ugly Face in the Mirror found that seventy five percent of the children described the “Arab” as a murderer, one who kidnaps children, a criminal and a terrorist. Eighty percent said they saw the Arab as someone dirty with a terrifying face. Ninety percent of the students stated they believe that Palestinians have no rights whatsoever to the land in Israel or Palestine.

quote:
Further more the Turkish continue to deny the Massacre of 1.5 million Armenians.
The Germans killed six million Jews how is this comparable???

It's not the events that I compared, but the systemic denial, of which you are a perfect example.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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Babbler # 3877

posted 22 July 2003 05:42 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Similar results were found for Israeli childrens books, and a study of grade 4-6 children conducted by Adir Cohen published as An Ugly Face in the Mirror found that seventy five percent of the children described the “Arab” as a murderer, one who kidnaps children, a criminal and a terrorist. Eighty percent said they saw the Arab as someone dirty with a terrifying face. Ninety percent of the students stated they believe that Palestinians have no rights whatsoever to the land in Israel or Palestine.

This can not be accurate research when over 70% of Israelis are willing to accept a Palestinian state along side Israel and this is stated in many, many places.

quote:
It's not the events that I compared, but the systemic denial, of which you are a perfect example.

I didn't deny bad things happen but you are taking words of context and exaggerating

Childish paranoia were they or were they not surrounded by nations that wanted to see them annihilated or ethnically cleans? Isn't their teaching proof of this?

Furthermore Israelis learn about the Irgun and Lehi and they are not made into martyrs.

Perhaps the war in 1948 was one of the dirtiest 5 against 1 yup very fair. They did not torture and persecute innocent people they did not force hundreds of thousands from their homes? right???

Any of Israeli criminal acts were gentle compared to this. I can bring you along list of terorrist attacks against jews prior to 1948 too a very long list and don't you forget that. There is more then one ugly face in this tragic stroy and it too should be exposed.

Israel admits to its wrong doings and mistakes but you are exploiting this you are continually trying to cover up the wrong doing of others it is hateful and dehumanizing.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 22 July 2003 06:46 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
[QB]

I didn't deny bad things happen but you are taking words of context and exaggerating


I did no such thing. You said, and I quote, "Massacres that is certainly an exaggeration and over statement. [sic]" I provided evidence of extensive massacres. Who is exaggerating?


quote:
Furthermore Israelis learn about the Irgun and Lehi and they are not made into martyrs.

No just Prime Ministers, e.g. Menachem Begin, who sent this message to the murderers who carried out the massacre at at Deir Yassin, "Accept my congratulations on this splendid act of conquest...." Yhitzak Shamir, another future Israeli Prime Minister was also in command of Stern Gang and Irgun irregulars who carried out various massacres of Arab civilians. Martyrs? Nothing so ethereal. No, Israel made these men heads of state.

quote:
Israel admits to its wrong doings and mistakes but you are exploiting this you are continually trying to cover up the wrong doing of others it is hateful and dehumanizing.

When has Israel admitted to, and made amends for the ethnic cleansing of 1948? When has Israel admitted that the occupation is illegal and immoral and has resulted in the most horrible abuses of Palestinians and made amends for this? Exploitation? How is it that I am 'exploiting' the plain simple truth?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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Babbler # 3830

posted 22 July 2003 10:45 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:

seems to me like you are the one with the double standard Israel has to stop the violence against Palestinians and recognize thier rights but they don't have to stop the violence and recognize Israel??? "Talk about double standards."

[ 22 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]



I don't think so Justice. Let's remember that it was the Palestinians who were invaded, and that's where the cycle of hate started. Hate came to them, they didn't go to it.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 22 July 2003 11:46 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do those 70% mean they are OK with a Palestinian-Arab state constituted of whole cloth out of the Green Line to the border with Jordan for the West Bank and all the Gaza Strip as a free and independent entity or do they mean the hacked-up and horribly reduced version wherein they are fine as long as the Arabs know who is the baas? (I deliberately use a South African term because the term "baas" in Afrikaans was specifically set up to reinforce the subservient relationship that existed between blacks and whites, analogous to the obvious subservience expected of Palestinian-Arabs, who apparently are to throw themselves at the feet of Israelis and marvel at their alleged good fortune.)
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 23 July 2003 12:15 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I did no such thing. You said, and I quote, "Massacres that is certainly an exaggeration and over statement. [sic]" I provided evidence of extensive massacres. Who is exaggerating?

And I said I could bring you equally extensive massacres perpetrated by Arabs against Jews. And exaggerated meaning they pale to the extent of the holocaust of the Massacre of Armenians committed by the Turks and the massacre of expulsion of Jews in Arab countries.
quote:
No just Prime Ministers, e.g. Menachem Begin, who sent this message to the murderers who carried out the massacre at at Deir Yassin, "Accept my congratulations on this splendid act of conquest...." Yhitzak Shamir, another future Israeli Prime Minister was also in command of Stern Gang and Irgun irregulars who carried out various massacres of Arab civilians. Martyrs? Nothing so ethereal. No, Israel made these men heads of state.

Horrible Meacham Begin that returned the Sinai for peace the Sinai which has a 1000 times the natural resources and riches Israel has. So he did some horrible wrong doings in his life he can hardly be as evil as you make him if he can make peace with Egypt.
And Yitzak Shamir who never really had a majority vote and had to make a collation government with the Labor in order to have a government??? You can hardly say a majority of Israel supports him or thinks he is a hero.

quote:
When has Israel admitted to, and made amends for the ethnic cleansing of 1948? When has Israel admitted that the occupation is illegal and immoral and has resulted in the most horrible abuses of Palestinians and made amends for this? Exploitation? How is it that I am 'exploiting' the plain simple truth?

You simply can not call it ethnic cleansing further more they are more sources and evidence that prove that Israelis Arab neighbor are more responsible for the refugee problem then Israel is. It's no more illegal then when Jordan and Egypt occupied there territories and Jordan even committed much worse acts against the Palestinians. And what about when the British and Ottoman empires occupied these territories even then most of the anger hatred and attack were directed at the Jews.
quote:
Do those 70% mean they are OK with a Palestinian-Arab state constituted of whole cloth out of the Green Line to the border with Jordan for the West Bank and all the Gaza Strip as a free and independent entity or do they mean the hacked-up and horribly reduced version wherein they are fine as long as the Arabs know who is the baas? (I deliberately use a South African term because the term "baas" in Afrikaans was specifically set up to reinforce the subservient relationship that existed between blacks and whites, analogous to the obvious subservience expected of Palestinian-Arabs, who apparently are to throw themselves at the feet of Israelis and marvel at their alleged good fortune.)

Over 50% of all Israelis would accept a Palestinian state along the green line

quote:
I don't think so Justice. Let's remember that it was the Palestinians who were invaded, and that's where the cycle of hate started. Hate came to them, they didn't go to it.

The hatred against Jews was long before the occupation. If the occupation was the problems then how come there were hardly any uprisings against the Jordinians.
I'll tell you why not because they knew they would be massacred. If they were afraid of the Jews they wouldn't attack as often but they know Israeli's have a moral conscience and terrorist organizations whose hatred dates back to way before Israel seek to exploit this.
Anyways you are trying to justify the unjustifiable, the killing of innocent men women and children in busses shame on you.

[ 23 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 23 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 23 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 23 July 2003 01:37 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First it's 70%. Now it's 50%. What's it gonna be next? 30%?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 23 July 2003 02:01 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No 70% support a palestinian state 50% support a palestinain state along the green line read more carefuly please instead of trying to twist things.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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Babbler # 3830

posted 23 July 2003 10:44 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Horrible Meacham Begin that returned the Sinai for peace the Sinai which has a 1000 times the natural resources and riches Israel has. So he did some horrible wrong doings in his life he can hardly be as evil as you make him if he can make peace with Egypt.
If a murderer gives to the poor, he's still a murderer.
quote:
You simply can not call it ethnic cleansing further more they are more sources and evidence that prove that Israelis Arab neighbor are more responsible for the refugee problem then Israel is
The what do you call it? That's such a load of hyperbole of the worst kind, and you know it.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 23 July 2003 11:31 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
No 70% support a palestinian state 50% support a palestinain state along the green line read more carefuly please instead of trying to twist things.
Twisting things is the manner in which Israel issues get presented here by some. Bottom line, there are those here who deny or wish to deconstruct the Jewish state of Israel. Pretty hard to have a discussion with people in that frame of mind.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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Babbler # 3980

posted 23 July 2003 11:37 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"You simply can not call it ethnic cleansing further more they are more sources and evidence that prove that Israelis Arab neighbor are more responsible for the refugee problem then Israel is."

Yes I can. Ethnic Cleansing. Ethnic Cleansing. Ethnic Cleansing. Frankly, I don't care about your semantic games, the facts are simple and easily demonstrable no matter what we call it: Israeli soldiers and irregular paramilitary units (LEHI, Irgun) were responsible for creating conditions under which Arab civilians living in Palestine were illegally forced from their homes in 1948. The 'sources' of which you speak have been so thoroughly dismantled in the past decade or so, that their arguments are hardly recognisable.

Tell me, Justice, since the bulk of the Palestinians who are now refugees lived in areas which were never penetrated by troops from Arab states, how is it that the Arabs are responsible for their flight, and not the Jewish troops who WERE operating in the area, and who WERE engaging in massacres, harrassment, beatings, theft, looting, and more? I suppose it is just an 'accident' that all those Arabs living in the villages where Jewish troops were doing this stuff just happened to get their things together and head for the hills....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 23 July 2003 11:38 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Twisting things is the manner in which Israel issues get presented here by some. Bottom line, there are those here who deny or wish to deconstruct the Jewish state of Israel. Pretty hard to have a discussion with people in that frame of mind.


"Honey, could you stomp on the floor, the CD is skipping again....."


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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Babbler # 2230

posted 23 July 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You simply can not call it ethnic cleansing further more they are more sources and evidence that prove that Israelis Arab neighbor are more responsible for the refugee problem then Israel is.

What happened in 1948 was quite clearly ethnic cleansing. Mishei, you're conflating the creation of the refugee problem by Israel and the aftermath. Yes, Israel had assumed that the refugee problem would just "disappear" with the absorption of dislocated Palestinians by neighbouring Arab states and to the extent that that has not happened, Israel blames and holds its Arab neighbours responsible. But the fact that Syria, Lebanon etc did not absorb the Palestinians does not change the fact that Israel created the refugee problem in the first place and blaming the Arab world for not helping Israel make the problem go away does not change that fact.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 23 July 2003 12:27 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:


"Honey, could you stomp on the floor, the CD is skipping again....."



Stomp! Stomp! Stomp! Is that better dear?

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 23 July 2003 03:25 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:

Stomp! Stomp! Stomp! Is that better dear?

I rest my case.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 23 July 2003 03:28 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So what am I?

sk "chopped liver" dadl


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 23 July 2003 03:54 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
I rest my case.

Well thank my Stars! You must be exhausted from carrying around that bag of evasions, obfuscations, and apologetics by now... Carrying that kind of burden would surely make a man weary.

Here, give me your case, I have the perfect place for it, right over here in mu *special* roundfile...

Take a load off, on my account.

[ 23 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
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posted 23 July 2003 03:55 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
So what am I?

sk "chopped liver" dadl


Chopped Liver...

Too bad. So sad...

Talk to the hand...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
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posted 23 July 2003 06:07 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Well thank my Stars! You must be exhausted from carrying around that bag of evasions, obfuscations, and apologetics by now... Carrying that kind of burden would surely make a man weary.

Here, give me your case, I have the perfect place for it, right over here in mu *special* roundfile...

Take a load off, on my account.

[ 23 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]



Thanks but no thanks.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 23 July 2003 06:56 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, all right...
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cart
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posted 23 July 2003 09:56 PM      Profile for Cart     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread is hilarious.
From: Camp X-ray | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 23 July 2003 10:04 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
All right, all right...

I couldn't resist. You know, my cantankerousness condition...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 24 July 2003 08:02 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

I couldn't resist. You know, my cantankerousness condition...



Tha's not your only condition...sorry couldn't resist

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 July 2003 08:40 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So does this mean we're through discussing the topic then?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 July 2003 09:45 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought I asked a penetrating question.

Of course, Mishei doesn't have to answer it if he doesn't want to. God forbid I should bully anyone into posting if he doesn't want to.

Apart from wishing he would answer the question, though, which is a serious puzzle for me, I think I have little more to say.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
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posted 24 July 2003 11:24 AM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
* "The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem."
– Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948.

* "The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees."
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949.

* "Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it."
– The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.

* "The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."
– The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.

* "For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.



From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 24 July 2003 01:26 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ray Peterson:
[QB][/QB]

Thanks for posting those talking points verbatim from, lemme guess, Joseph Farrah? It's tough to do all of them full justice in a format like this but let's look at a few of them:

quote:
"The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem."
– Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948.

For starters, this is a statement of opinion, not necessarily of fact. It doesn't contradict my central thesis, which is that Israel bears primary responsibility for the creation of the refugee problem. Moreover, his comments do not refer directly to actions taken by either Israeli or Arab troops in directly facilitating the flight of Palestinians. He is talking about a diplomatic mistake which may have lead to the eventual displacement of the Palestinians. But it isn't the overarching picture which is in question but the details of how that displacement took place, and to what degree these details are obscured and suppressed in Israel and elsewhere.


quote:
"The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees."
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949.

A secondary source. What I have never seen, and what nobody seems to be able to produce, is any kind of direct order, written, broadcast, or otherwise by Arab states encouraging Arabs to leave their homes. Moreover, this would not cover those great number of Palestinian refugees - the majority, in fact - who were resident in areas where Arab troops never set foot. Let us remember that Israel had already expanded her line of defense far into the West Bank (past the Green Line) before the Arab armies intervened, meaning that most of the fighting took place outside what is now Israel. Most the Palestinian refugees are from inside what is now Israel. How is it that they came to leave their homes? That's the central question.


quote:
* "Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it."
– The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.

This is an opinion, not a historical analysis. AS such it is only rhetorical and does nothing to counter the arguments made by, for instance, Benny Morris, based on analysis of Israeli documents and records from the 1948 war which clearly show that there was a plan in place to displace as many Palestinians as possible from what would become the Israeli state.


quote:
* "The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."
– The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.

Again, the assertion is made, but as Erskine Childers and others have shown, the assertion is reckless and false. It originates in Israeli propaganda about the situation. That an Egyptian (Arab) newpaper writer picked up on this mythology does not provide it with anymore credibility. Interestingly, what Farrah and friends never produce is an actual document, radio broadcast transcription, or other piece of evidence to back up the assertion. If they had it, don't you think they would be waving it under our noses? Moreover, even if such an order WERE given, there is no direct relationship between such an order and the actual FACTS of the flight of Palestinians. Such an order could have been given, but that doesn't relieve us of looking for evidence of what actually took place on the ground to facilitate the flight of the Palestinians. What happened on the ground is in question, not some assertion - real or imagined - made by the Mufti of Jerusalem.

quote:
* "For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.

Again, another opinion piece with no reference to any specific documentation. It's anecdotal at best.

Moreover, as the actual evidence from Deir Yassin, Saf'Saf, Adiyamin, Ramle & Lydda, and other locales demonstrates, there was actual massacres taking place which fit the 'atrocity' bill. In more than one place, more than 200 civilians were killed in a few short hours. Interesting that none of the quotations provided by Farrah and his ilk ever addresses this evidence directly, in fact, it is never even mentioned. As such, the claims are spurious at best, and simply repitions of Israeli propaganda at worst.

[ 24 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 24 July 2003 03:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I thought I asked a penetrating question.

Of course, Mishei doesn't have to answer it if he doesn't want to. God forbid I should bully anyone into posting if he doesn't want to.

Apart from wishing he would answer the question, though, which is a serious puzzle for me, I think I have little more to say.


Id love to take a stab at your question but your last post asked something about "chopped liver"

Personally I hate liver, chopped or otherwise so I really don't think I can help you out here.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 24 July 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, it is true, Mishei, that my post met with deafening silence for so long that just about anyone could have forgotten it -- so let me repeat myself.

You wrote:

quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
So in other words I am right. As it presently stands you do not accept the Jewish state.

So then I said:

quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:


Hang on. Now I'm confused.

Mishei, I feel sure that if certain posters were to refer critically to members of the Israeli administration or military as Jews rather than as Israelis, you would spring forth with a warning.

Or am I wrong? To me the words are not interchangeable. Are they to you? Or are they to you in some people's posts but not in other people's posts?


quote:

Later on, when I made my comment about feeling left out (as in What am I? Chopped liver?), Courage said such a mean thing to me. Gee, I never expected that from Courage. But guys, y'know. It just goes to show you how independent we all are as thinkers.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 24 July 2003 04:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
PS: I don't like all liver, but some very fine liver is very fine. Best of all, sad to say, is the famous goose liver. If you ever buy a goose, make sure to find the (tiny wee) liver post-haste. Melt some butter in a tiny wee fry-pan. When it is just about sizzling, lay the tiny wee liver in it. Let it sizzle for less than a minute on one side, then turn it smartly and brown it a bit on the other. DO NOT OVERCOOK!

You will be able to cut it with a fork. Devour instantly. Heavenly, but hardly a full meal.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 24 July 2003 04:09 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Later on, when I made my comment about feeling left out (as in What am I? Chopped liver?), Courage said such a mean thing to me. Gee, I never expected that from Courage. But guys, y'know. It just goes to show you how independent we all are as thinkers.

Enough out of you already...


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skdadl
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posted 24 July 2003 04:14 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Courage, I am trying to be resilient here, but I am a tender-hearted person, y'know.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 24 July 2003 06:00 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, im still unsure as to what you are asking me here. IMHO, Israel is the Jewish state.

It is the homeland for the Jewish people.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 24 July 2003 09:46 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei:

1. I give up. (I believe this is gambit 6 in your playbook?)

2. I don't, really. I shall just hang about, and the next time someone uses the word "Israeli," clearly referring to the gov't of Israel, but in a negative context, I shall pop up again and ask you whether the same sentence would be acceptable to you if we substituted the word "Jewish" for "Israeli."

(ie: that was my question)


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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