babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Israel's "Berlin Wall"

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Israel's "Berlin Wall"
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 12 July 2003 10:18 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The "fence" that was supposed to run along the green line is cutting deep into the West Bank, taking Palestinian land:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/12/international/middleeast/12FENC.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 12 July 2003 10:37 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When Mr. Awad looks to the south, he sees the red-roofed homes of the Jewish hilltop settlement of Salit.

The only direction that is not blocked off is to the west — toward Israel — even though the point of putting up the fence is to separate Israelis and Palestinians.



But it is about security.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 12 July 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A further report in a continuing series ... most depressing. Since, we are told, this Palestinian village need not have been cut off from its larger West Bank market town by the fence, the whole project once again appears downright perverse.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 July 2003 10:42 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, I read a report like this, and I feel such an impotent fury well up. I think, there must be something you can do, some way to protest the action, some way to get relief through the courts when the government takes an action like that, some kind of an injunction to stop them. And then I think, no, there isn't. There would be here, if the government did something like that, but there isn't there.

And then I think, if I feel such a clenching of my stomach and such helpless rage over such injustice while reading this, what must Palestinians be feeling? Dehumanizing, demoralizing, fury-inducing. And Sharon wants peace? Bullshit. He wants peace, my ass. He wants to provoke more and more violence to justify more and more oppression. The bastard.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 July 2003 12:46 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
You know, I read a report like this, and I feel such an impotent fury well up. I think, there must be something you can do, some way to protest the action, some way to get relief through the courts when the government takes an action like that, some kind of an injunction to stop them. And then I think, no, there isn't. There would be here, if the government did something like that, but there isn't there.

And then I think, if I feel such a clenching of my stomach and such helpless rage over such injustice while reading this, what must Palestinians be feeling? Dehumanizing, demoralizing, fury-inducing. And Sharon wants peace? Bullshit. He wants peace, my ass. He wants to provoke more and more violence to justify more and more oppression. The bastard.


It's tough to watch. It's been really hard to watch so-called 'peace activists' like PeaceNow waffle and essentially give the wall legitimacy. Their official position is not that any wall is a disgrace; only that it should be better located. It's hard to 'do' anything when the organisations who might actually curry enough favour in Israeli society to make a dent in this project - and the mindset that planned ans sustained it - rolled over and showed their bellies to the right-wing militarists and fascists long ago.

The wall, to me, is a symbol of the absolute failure of 'peaceful' Zionism to generate and sustain any meaningful opposition to the sons and daughters of Ben-Gurion and Jabotinsky. It is a sign that the militarists, the seperatists, and the fascists have gotten their way and that the folks who could and should be showing some backbone, have dissembled and failed. And it makes me sad and angry too, Michelle.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 12 July 2003 12:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you think that people here who are sympathetic to Israel but also intelligent and perceptive about how this story (among others) is playing among North Americans are sending back warning messages to the Israeli leadership?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 July 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
People here in Canada, or people here on babble? Because I doubt the Israeli leadership cares one way or another what a few people on a Canadian message board are saying about them.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 12 July 2003 01:32 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, I meant Canada, Canadians generally, North Americans generally.

(I mean, I love babble, but I recognize that we are a small pond.)


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3851

posted 12 July 2003 03:22 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was in Israel recently and the fence saddens me. Yes it is dehumanizing. Yes it is even segregationist. Yes I wish it wasnt necessary.

Then again, my Israeli friend Shoshana was travelling down the highway leading from Jerusalem south into the negev on her way back to Kibbutz Zikim. It was early in the evening and the fence had not yet been erected. Shots broke the still night air one slamming into the hood of her small car the other into her shoulder ripping through muscle but thankfully missing vital organs. It was a terrorist attack similar to many that had occured on that particular stretch of the road.

Shoshana recuperated and went back to her job at the kibbutz where she works in a special program that brings together Israeli and Palestinian children with gross learing and motor difficulties.

Kibbutz Zikim is a socialist kibbutz that has been at the forefront of kibbutzim advocating peace and relations between common Israelis and Palestinians.

The wall now runs along that portion of the roadway and there have been no further incidents.

It just makes you think and gives another side to the issue. It's still bad and Shoshana works towards tearing down the wall.


From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 July 2003 05:51 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zisel:
I was in Israel recently and the fence saddens me. Yes it is dehumanizing. Yes it is even segregationist. Yes I wish it wasnt necessary.

It isn't. Peace is necessary. A just settlement of the problem (something Israel has avoided and pushed aside for decades) would stop such attacks. The wall does not lend itself to a climate of change and co-existence. It actually amplifies the anger and mistrust Arabs have for Israelis, increasing the liklihood of these sorts of attacks.


quote:
It just makes you think and gives another side to the issue. It's still bad and Shoshana works towards tearing down the wall.

Actually, it's just a backdoor way of slipping in an endoresment of the the Wall in just way the militarists and fascists are selling it to 'the Left'. The wall is a symbol of the denial of what lead to its supposed 'truth'. Like a big concrete collective ideological block in Israeli society. The attacks where the wall now stands were like little entrances of the unwanted, unexpected fruit of a long repressed trauma. The wall just represses their causes further, without ever directly facing them.

It's like putting a bandage on a gangrinous leg. Maybe you can't see the problem anymore, but its festering under there, and it'll kill you if you don't address it.

As for your friend, sounds like a terrible experience. Hope she's okay. What highway was she driving to Ziqim? Where was she shot at, specifically? I only ask because I wonder if I've been across that same stretch of road. I had a good friend in Ashqelon, which as you know is not far from the Kibbutz you mention, and we used to travel to and from Jerusalem a fair bit. Of course, you mention she was headed toward the Negev to get to Ziqim on the coast. Sounds like an odd route to take. Where was it?

[ 12 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 12 July 2003 06:39 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is the logic of the gated community.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 July 2003 06:51 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
This is the logic of the gated community.

I often thought that the Wall's purpose was to keep Israelis in as much as keep Arabs out...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Babbler # 3804

posted 12 July 2003 10:57 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh it takes too much Palestinian land does it?

Tell me, aside from giving the Palestinians the whole country and drowning themselves in the Mediterranean, what SHOULD the Israelis do?


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 12 July 2003 11:10 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, they could start by building the wall on their own damn land. Or even better, not building it at all.

They could pull their settlements out of the West Bank and Gaza and make serious movements towards recognizing Palestinian statehood, like letting the Palestinians have some control over their own infrastructure and, hey, maybe even the right to use those nice roads that run over their territory.

That'd be a nice start.

[ 12 July 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2798

posted 13 July 2003 10:59 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A just settlement of the problem would be the end of Israel. If Israel is to survive as a Jewish state dehumazation and segregation are necessary, and until people realize that these discussions will just keep going 'round in circles.

Besides almost the entire Jewish community support the security fence. If you're against it you must have some kind of ill will towards Jews and if that's not crossing the line its threateningly scaling the wall.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 July 2003 01:32 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
Oh it takes too much Palestinian land does it?

Tell me, aside from giving the Palestinians the whole country and drowning themselves in the Mediterranean, what SHOULD the Israelis do?


Ah yes, the old false dichotomy with one option not really being an option.

They could try a secular citizenship-based democracy providing protection to all ethnic and religious groups.

A worse option, but likely do-able in the near future: they could try evacuating the settlements and tearing down the wall and opt for a two-state solution with a border roughly coinciding with the Green Line.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 13 July 2003 11:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
After reading Zisel's post I wondered how it might be responded to by the usual anti-Israel group.

I mean here was a situation in which a woman who works for peace became an unfortunate victim herself.

What do we get? Questions about the route Zisel says she took. A not so veiled suggestion to say the least. Totally unecessary.

Zisel I fully understand what trauma your friend and her family must be going through. I hope she has a full recovery.

[ 13 July 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 July 2003 12:37 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
After reading Zisel's post I wondered how it might be responded to by the usual anti-Israel group.

quote:
I mean here was a situation in which a woman who works for peace became an unfortunate victim herself. What do we get? Questions about the route Zisel says she took. A not so veiled suggestion to say the least. Totally unecessary.

No veiled suggestion at all. I'm truly curious about where this happened. I've spent a lot of time on those roads (probably more than you), and it would be interesting to know if I recognise the area where this terrible incident happened. It's just that simple. It's like if someone were shot near your hometown on a road you know - wouldn't you be curious to place it? BTW, I've been to Kibbutz Zikim, have you?

Interesting that you start the conversation with a lie, calling people 'anti-Israel' when you won't find any full rejectionists around here. Then you move immediately to suggesting I have a dark alterior motive, perhaps antisemitic....

What a dandy man you are, Mishei...

[ 14 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830

posted 14 July 2003 12:54 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
the "wall" is not about security. I think it will make things worse by building this prison wall for the Palestinians. It is also an excellent opportunity to steal even more land from the Palestinians. Uncontested by the U.S. of course.
From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 July 2003 04:38 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

No veiled suggestion at all. I'm truly curious about where this happened. I've spent a lot of time on those roads (probably more than you), and it would be interesting to know if I recognise the area where this terrible incident happened. It's just that simple. It's like if someone were shot near your hometown on a road you know - wouldn't you be curious to place it? BTW, I've been to Kibbutz Zikim, have you?

Interesting that you start the conversation with a lie, calling people 'anti-Israel' when you won't find any full rejectionists around here. Then you move immediately to suggesting I have a dark alterior motive, perhaps antisemitic....

What a dandy man you are, Mishei...

[ 14 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]



I made no antisemitic suggestion. That is simply your paranoia talking to you.
And if indeed you wanted to know for the reason you stipulated, then my apologies.

No, I have not been to Zikim.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 14 July 2003 11:22 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zisel was using this example as a reason why the wall should be built. She was using it as a point in a debate. And she (or you) expected people not to ask questions, Mishei?

I know terrible things happen. I just don't think a wall is the solution, just as I don't think enclosing oneself within a suburban gated community is the best response when one fears crime in the city.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 15 July 2003 12:12 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
Zisel was using this example as a reason why the wall should be built. She was using it as a point in a debate. And she (or you) expected people not to ask questions, Mishei?

I know terrible things happen. I just don't think a wall is the solution, just as I don't think enclosing oneself within a suburban gated community is the best response when one fears crime in the city.


Smith in fact i dont disagree with you. But tragically the wall and gated communities are reactions to fear and violence. I too would prefer to live in a world where neighbors treat each other with kindness and respect. In the Middle East if they can reach the point of tolerating each other we will be way ahead of the game.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 15 July 2003 12:40 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Walls have never provided protection for long in the past. I think it is the another sign that Israel , the way it is now, is at its end. It is an act of desperation that is surely to fail.

But what a waste of life.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 15 July 2003 01:00 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But tragically the wall and gated communities are reactions to fear and violence. I too would prefer to live in a world where neighbors treat each other with kindness and respect. In the Middle East if they can reach the point of tolerating each other we will be way ahead of the game.

But don't you think building the wall is going to cause more fear and violence?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 15 July 2003 08:19 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:

But don't you think building the wall is going to cause more fear and violence?



Sadly it may. I guess when you fear for your life and the lives of your children you think of the immediate present and not the distant future.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 15 July 2003 08:54 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree, Mishei. It's too bad the Palestinians don't have the resources to construct their own, IDF-proof, wall.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 15 July 2003 10:35 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
I agree, Mishei. It's too bad the Palestinians don't have the resources to construct their own, IDF-proof, wall.

Perhaps then this wall will work for both.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 15 July 2003 11:00 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It certainly will "work" for Israel since the Sharon government is grabbing more Palestinian land in the process, as noted in the thread's initial post but which seems to have gotten lost in the discussion.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 15 July 2003 11:01 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, dear. Time for Smith to post again the link to the maps showing where the "security fence" is projected to run.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 15 July 2003 01:41 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Perhaps then this wall will work for both.


Tell that to the settlers and the IDF troops who protect them.

I expect there to be 'Israel' on both sides of this ugly monstrosity for a long time yet. Sharon, among others, has no intention of giving up the dream of Israel in Judea and Samaria just yet. Interestingly, today there exist MORE outposts than when the supposedly 'historic' and 'hopeful' (as you called it) destruction of outposts commenced awhile back. Suprising? Not to anyone who is realistic about what brutal bastards Sharon and Ya'alon are.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 15 July 2003 02:34 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ask and ye shall receive!

(Again, scroll to the bottom of the page to see the route of the fence vs. the Green Line. Again, prepare to be shocked by what you see.)


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 15 July 2003 02:44 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*Snort* Leave it to Sharon to convert a wall for security into a wall for territorial theft. There are two things Sharon knows: how to invade other people's territory and how to steal other people's territory.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 15 July 2003 03:34 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nobody can sign on to that, can we?

Thanks, Sarcasmo.

[ 15 July 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 15 July 2003 09:04 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Notice the last bit which says "Areas under Israeli Control". That makes the independent existence of Palestine itself almost a total joke.

We might as well start calling a spade a spade and call Palestine a vassal power under Israeli domination.

Now, I'm going to hear no end of it about ArafatBarak'sOfferDennisRossblahblahblah, I'm sure of it.

"If only that evil perfidious no-good Arafat had accepted Barak's 'offer'! Never mind that Barak misunderstood the significance of the negotiations to the Palestinian-Arabs and didn't bother to try and couch his statements in a way that would actually lead to more negotiations."

All about Barak's "Generous Offer"

quote:
69 settlements are included in this area, where 85% of the settlers live. It is clearly visible that The blocs create impossible borders, which severely disrupt Palestinian life
in the West Bank.

There goes 10% of the much-vaunted "95%". Now we're down to 85%.

quote:
The “Temporary Control” concept is unique. It refers to sovereign Palestinian land that will remain under Israeli military and civil control for an indefinite time.

There goes another 10%. Now we're down to 75%.

quote:
What appears to be territorial continuity is actually split up by settlement blocs, bypass roads and roadblocks. The Palestinians have to relinquish land reserves essential for their development and absorption of refugees. They also have to accept Israeli supervision of borders crossings together with many other restrictions.

That backs off another 5 to 10 percent. So now we're down go 70 ot 65 percent.

Some "Generous Offer." The fine print is ignored by virtually everyone who wants to slander Arafat.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 16 July 2003 04:00 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More on the "wall." Number of Palestinians to be hurt 95,000-200,000, loss of Jordan valley, and loss of fertile agricultural land.

http://tinyurl.com/h4zn


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 17 July 2003 04:04 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are we surprised.

Who the hell would accept three non-contiguous pieces of land as a state?

And in other news:

Israelis, Palestinians Agree To Share Headline

The Onion says it almost as well as Amira Hass.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 17 July 2003 05:12 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A fence to mark whose sand and rocks is whose sand and rocks.

And you think I'm joking when I say the Bonobos are more evolved than we.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2798

posted 17 July 2003 05:38 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
you could say "better adapted". there's no such thing "more evolved".
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 17 July 2003 05:44 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
better adapted, more evolved.

Deffinately less pedantic.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2798

posted 25 August 2003 04:29 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Largest demolition in years: Israel destroys entire commercial market in one day

quote:
Marking the single largest demolition of buildings in years, the entire commercial area of Nazlat 'Isa was today raised to the ground as some 15 bulldozers, accompanied by large numbers of military and border police, entered the community at 5:00 AM and destroyed over 100 shops and 5 homes. The market, which was previously targeted in January of this year with the destruction of 82 or close to one half of its shops, has been the commercial center for the entire region.

From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2798

posted 25 August 2003 04:35 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Palestinian state, my ass.

If human rights were respected there wouldn't be any violence, there wouldn't be any fear, and there wouldn't be a wall anywhere. But that would be antisemitic, wouldn't it?


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 26 August 2003 10:37 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Scheer insanity, and then wonder when more busses get blown up.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 26 August 2003 11:19 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Insanity? Or something taught?

quote:
Talk to Jewish anti-Zionists in Israel -- a tiny number of people, barely reaching four figures out of a total Jewish population of five million -- and most will tell you how hard they struggled to overcome the Zionist training they were given from birth. Many say they are still fighting to defeat their own racist assumptions to this day.

Jonathan Cook on the Israeli Field of Vision


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 27 August 2003 12:39 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
al Qa'bong

Good article. Still, how long can the Israelis fool themself about what is going on in their name, or the Americans about what is happening in Afghanistan-Iraq, or us ignoring the impact of our life-style on our environment? Just because each of us is seemingly such an insignificant part, does that excuse us.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 27 August 2003 09:50 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Small though they may be, it is encouraging that Jewish anti-Zionists are speaking out more and more. I dare say that many significant movements, including Zionism, have started out small in number. My hope is that more and more Jews around the world will come to see how Zionism trampled on the great moral precepts underlying Judaism. And come to the conclusion that political states should not be based on religion.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 03 September 2003 10:27 AM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My hope is that more and more Jews around the world will come to see how Zionism trampled on the great moral precepts underlying Judaism. And come to the conclusion that political states should not be based on religion.

Very well said. This goes for many countries, including Canada re: the same sex marriage issue.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 07 September 2003 01:06 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
I almost wish they would hurry up building this 'Berlin' wall. Then the world would at last have to wake up to the absurdity of the situation and be forced to act, starting with an around the clock airdrop of supplies to the beleagerd Palistinians. Planes will be bringing in supplies from Cairo, Damascus, and Amman. With a once a month flight from Canada, after all we cannot be left behind in the worlds quest to liberate the Palistinians. We will make an island of liberty in those hostile seas.

Aaah...It is the rerun season in the Middle East.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 07 September 2003 02:02 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I almost wish they would hurry up building this 'Berlin' wall. Then the world would at last have to wake up to the absurdity of the situation and be forced to act, starting with an around the clock airdrop of supplies to the beleagerd Palistinians.

I think you're dreaming, bub.

The wall would be but the most recent indignity foisted upon the Palestinians. The world has been ignoring them since 1948. Why should anything change?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 07 September 2003 09:13 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

The world has been ignoring them since 1948. Why should anything change?


I don't think the world had been ignoring them, judging from UN resolutions and the like. It's just that Israel is too military strong to do anything about it, and the supposed mediator in the dispute, the U.S., has not been an "honest broker."


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 07 September 2003 11:26 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Maybe it is more a rerun of Eric the Red and his attempt to take Greenland, their superiour weaponry was in the end of no use against the adaptabillity of the Inuit in their home- environment. Resorting to military power to make a conquest aproaches zero percent succes in the longrun. Ideology works better but unfortunately Israeli ideology is not very inclusive.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 15 September 2005 08:25 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

The Israeli Supreme Court today rejected an opinion by the International Court of Justice calling for the removal of Israel’s West Bank barrier, upholding the structure’s legality and also instructing the government to reroute a section to avoid encircling Palestinian villages.

In its first ruling on the world court opinion, the nine-member panel of Supreme Court justices said the July 2004 judgment by the tribunal at the Hague, Netherlands, did not sufficiently consider Israel’s security needs.

The world court delivered a non-bonding opinion calling the barrier illegal and recommending that it be torn down. Israel did not take part in the hearing, claiming that it was a political show.

In its decision discarding the world court ruling, the Israeli panel also determined two key parameters: The barrier can extend into the West Bank, but it cannot impose undue hardships on Palestinians.

“The court reached the conclusion that the reason behind the fence is the security consideration of preventing infiltration by terrorists into Israel and Israeli communities (in the West Bank),” the ruling said. “On the other hand is the consideration of the human rights of the local Arab population.”

The world court, it said, heard only arguments relating to the Palestinians’ plight, “without dealing with the factual basis regarding Israel’s security-military need to erect the fence.


http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=128193340&p=yz8y939zx

As for the last point, perhaps they didn't address it because Israel boycotted the proceedings. Regardless of this makeweight argument, the Court never would have found the ICJ's decision binding.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca