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Author Topic: UN: best places to live Isarel and PA rank well
Mishei
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posted 10 July 2003 05:45 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmmm well according to the UN Israel ranks 22nd in the world in relation to the best places to live. And the PA ranks 98th out of 175.

Not at all bad considering it ranks ahead of Egypt, Syria, Iran etc.

So I guess given the fact that it utlized information from prior to the current violence the PA was not the hell hole that some here have claimed .

I have posted the article due to the difficulty in accessing the Jerusalem Post.

For those who want the link to try for themselves here it is:


----------------------------------------------
Jul. 10, 2003
UN finds Israel 22nd for quality of life
By AMIR EFRATI

Advertisement

Having notched the 22nd ranking out of 175 countries in this year's UN Human Development Report, Israel appears to be doing relatively well in spite of its economic and security concerns.

But economic analysts are questioning the report's methodology - aside from its use of 2001 statistics that fail account for the full effects of the current outbreak of violence - and play down Israel's standing, which is identical to last year's, saying it could be better.

Norway topped the UN list, announced Monday in New York, followed by Iceland, Sweden and Australia. The United States (7), Canada (8), the United Kingdom (13), and France (17), along with a host of other European countries, bested Israel, while Portugal, Greece, and Cyprus rounded out the top 25.

"It's a terrible ranking [for Israel]," said Prof. Ya'acov Kop, head of the Center for Social Policy Studies in Israel. "The countries we compare ourselves to are much higher; it's not good enough."

Kop, a professor of economics and public policy, said the UN report could be flawed because it may have combined a number of indicators without giving them weight according to importance - that is, they arrived at a "simplified" average.

He recently published a study in which 58 percent of Israelis said their quality of life has dropped and 32% said their income could no longer keep up with their expenses. Some 20% said they refrained from purchasing medicine or visiting doctors due to higher costs.

"We are headed toward a less equitable society," he said.

The annual UN list, started in 1990 and compiled by a selected team of "leading scholars, development practitioners," and members the United Nations Development Program, is meant to gauge the quality of life and the "choices people have to lead lives that they value."

It measures a host of indicators such as human rights, labor rights, poverty, disease, demographic trends, health and education spending, technology, trade, inequality in income or consumption, and environmental factors.

Israel has maintained a place in the top 30 since the report's inception.

The "Occupied Palestinian Territories" made the 98th spot - again, using statistics from before the current violence - with Egypt (120) and Syria (110) lagging behind; Lebanon (83) and Jordan (90) complete the ranks of Israel's neighbors.

Other notables are Russia (63), China (104), Iran (106), India (127), Ethiopia (169), with Burkina Faso (173), Niger (174), and Sierra Leone (175) making up the bottom three.

Behind Luxembourg, Israel has the second-highest cellular phone usage (907 users out of 1,000). And while Israel received high marks in education spending (7.3 percent of its GDP, second only to Denmark) and health spending (8.1 percent of its GDP and ranked seventh among developed nations), the indicators, argued Roby Nathanson, director of the Israel Institute for Economic and Social Research, "only show part of the picture."

"Although we have high expenditures for education and health, the outputs - what you get for what you pay - are very poor," Nathanson said, alluding to a survey released last week by the Program for International Student Assessment that put Israeli 15-year-olds in the bottom third of 41 industrialized countries in science, math, and reading skills.

The UN ranking might be encouraging, he added, but without exorbitant defense and security expenditures, "Israel could be in the top 10."
Previous article

JPost

[ 10 July 2003: Message edited by: audra estrones ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 10 July 2003 05:54 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So I guess given the fact that it utlized information from prior to the current violence the PA was not the hell hole that some here have claimed.

How do you arrive at that conclusion? On whatever index the UN is using, how far ahead of Egypt and Iran is the PA? This is just a ranking; minuscule differences can affect it.

As for your thread subject, I don't think ranking 98th out of 175 is ranking "well."

I don't think anyone would claim that the PA is the worst place to live in the world, or even in the Middle East. But conditions on this earth get pretty damn miserable. The PA isn't the Congo, but still, isn't it just a little noteworthy that Israel (and presumably the settlement blocs) is 76 places ahead of an area a short bus ride away?

[ 10 July 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


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DrConway
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posted 10 July 2003 06:05 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
He recently published a study in which 58 percent of Israelis said their quality of life has dropped and 32% said their income could no longer keep up with their expenses. Some 20% said they refrained from purchasing medicine or visiting doctors due to higher costs.

"We are headed toward a less equitable society," he said.


I find this interesting. It seems that Israel is becoming subject to the same political-economic pressures that right-wing administrations in Canada, the USA and Western Europe have been visiting upon those nations (although in fairness Western Europe aside from Great Britain have never gone anywhere near as far as, say, the US, in withdrawing social supports for the poorest people and in blatantly giving the tax system to rich people).

This is doubly ironic given that ethnically homogeneous societies seem to tolerate higher marginal tax rates and a stronger welfare state, as a comparison to Denmark would show - Israel's top marginal tax rate was about 60%; Denmark's, 66% - to use just one example.

I suspect most Israelis would, absent the Palestinian-Arab situation, vote in predominantly leftist and/or socialist parties into power. Israel, it must be remembered, was originally founded by people who had a notion of creating a form of what Ze'ev Sternhell referred to as "nationalist socialism" - binding the Jewish-organic drive for a nation to the concept of equality for all Jews who lived within it. It would be interesting to see such an experiment actually happen.


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Mishei
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posted 10 July 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
According to many the Intifada began out of sheer desperation. Suicide/homicide bombers arose out of the squalor and hell that Israel perpetrated in the PA. Yet if this study is to be believed the PA while not ranking in the top 10 , given all that has been alluded to regarding their living conditions, did not fare all that badly.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 July 2003 06:34 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
According to many the Intifada began out of sheer desperation. Suicide/homicide bombers arose out of the squalor and hell that Israel perpetrated in the PA.

According to many what? I always heard the Intifada started after the IDF shot and killed demonstrators who were protesting Arik Sharon's little stroll to the Haram Al-Sharif. There were worsening conditions in the PA, but these have been accredited (by some, I don't know how many) to the doubling of the settler population in the occupied territories.


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DrConway
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posted 10 July 2003 07:41 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
According to many the Intifada began out of sheer desperation. Suicide/homicide bombers arose out of the squalor and hell that Israel perpetrated in the PA. Yet if this study is to be believed the PA while not ranking in the top 10 , given all that has been alluded to regarding their living conditions, did not fare all that badly.

Living standards are relative.

On an absolute scale, sure, the PA may not be the worst place to live, but relative to Israel proper, there's definitely a differential of living standards.


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Smith
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posted 10 July 2003 08:05 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
According to many the Intifada began out of sheer desperation. Suicide/homicide bombers arose out of the squalor and hell that Israel perpetrated in the PA. Yet if this study is to be believed the PA while not ranking in the top 10 , given all that has been alluded to regarding their living conditions, did not fare all that badly.

That's because living conditions in much of the world are terrible.

The PA does not rank anywhere near the top 10. In fact, it is in the bottom half of the list. Now tell me - if you were living in a place like the PA, and you were right next to Israeli settlements that enjoyed a much, much better standard of living than you did, and maybe you could even remember a time when you yourself were much better off, and it seemed to be beyond your control, would that not make you angry? Maybe even desperate?

Nobody has claimed that the Palestinian situation is the worst in the world. But you're essentially saying "see, it isn't that bad, so they must not have a legitimate reason to do what they do or feel the way they feel." And the evidence is not in your favour.

[ 10 July 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


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satana
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posted 10 July 2003 08:24 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The huge inequality in living standards between Israelis and Palestinians in its occupied territory just highlights Israel's racism. That their neighbours are even worse is not something to be happy about either.
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Mishei
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posted 10 July 2003 08:37 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:

That's because living conditions in much of the world are terrible.

The PA does not rank anywhere near the top 10. In fact, it is in the bottom half of the list. Now tell me - if you were living in a place like the PA, and you were right next to Israeli settlements that enjoyed a much, much better standard of living than you did, and maybe you could even remember a time when you yourself were much better off, would that not make you angry? Maybe even desperate?

MIshei: Maybe but I wouldnt strap a bomb to my body and murder countless innocent people

Nobody has claimed that the Palestinian situation is the worst in the world. But you're essentially saying "see, it isn't that bad, so they must not have a legitimate reason to do what they do or feel the way they feel." And the evidence is not in your favour.


Im saying that the conditions did not warrant Islamic terrorists goading young kids into strapping bombs to theior bodies and murdering other innocent young kids. That is what I am saying.


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Smith
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posted 10 July 2003 08:39 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Im saying that the conditions did not warrant Islamic terrorists goading young kids into strapping bombs to theior bodies and murdering other innocent young kids. That is what I am saying.

No, they don't. But what's your point? Would it warrant it if Palestine were #175? I thought we were all pretty much agreed that murdering children was a bad thing, full stop.

[ 10 July 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


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Courage
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posted 10 July 2003 08:41 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Hmmm well according to the UN Israel ranks 22nd in the world in relation to the best places to live. And the PA ranks 98th out of 175.

Not at all bad considering it ranks ahead of Egypt, Syria, Iran etc.

So I guess given the fact that it utlized information from prior to the current violence the PA was not the hell hole that some here have claimed .

I have posted the article due to the difficulty in accessing the Jerusalem Post.

For those who want the link to try for themselves here it is:


Three points to counter your spin.

1) Ranking on these things means nothing - it's the relation of the index that counts. For example, the differences between the top 10 (much is being made of Canada's 'drop') are miniscule tenths of points. Whereas the differences between the top ten and the bottom 125 are massive. Without the index numbers (if we accept that they mean anything at all), we can't say much.

2) Just because something isn't AS BAD as something else doesn't mean it is peachy. That there are 'worse' places on earth doesn't mean anything when we consider that a truly humane goal would be to have everyone at the highest levels.

3) A question: Am I supposed to believe you and the UN, or my lying eyes?


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Mishei
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posted 10 July 2003 08:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

A question: Am I supposed to believe you and the UN, or my lying eyes?



No Courage you are always right and everyone else is wrong.

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Smith
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posted 10 July 2003 08:53 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let me repeat Courage's first two points:

quote:
1) Ranking on these things means nothing - it's the relation of the index that counts. For example, the differences between the top 10 (much is being made of Canada's 'drop') are miniscule tenths of points. Whereas the differences between the top ten and the bottom 125 are massive. Without the index numbers (if we accept that they mean anything at all), we can't say much.

2) Just because something isn't AS BAD as something else doesn't mean it is peachy. That there are 'worse' places on earth doesn't mean anything when we consider that a truly humane goal would be to have everyone at the highest levels.


How do you deal with these, Mishei?


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Mishei
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posted 10 July 2003 09:06 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
Let me repeat Courage's first two points:

How do you deal with these, Mishei?


I have to read more about number 1. I agree with number 2.

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skdadl
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posted 10 July 2003 09:07 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, Grope articles have been instructing us carefully over the last couple of days about those index numbers, their interest mainly being, of course, Canada's "drop." The JPost article is a bit mindless that way.

Where, btw, does Jordan rank? Lebanon?

My heart goes out to Egyptians, Syrians, and Iranians if they are even worse off than those in the PA.


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Courage
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posted 10 July 2003 09:49 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

No Courage you are always right and everyone else is wrong.

When it comes to you, this is sooo true. Let's have a look at your spin above in more depth. What you gloss over in your accolades about the stunning comfort that the Palestinians are living in, is the relative nature of poverty. It's one thing to be 'poor'. It's another thing to be poor and look over the fence and see someone swimming in a nice pool on land that your father and grandfather used to till and care for. In other words, your malarky argument glosses over a basic question: how is it that the Palestinians came to be living in relatively terrible conditions *compared* to their next door neighbours? Then we get the problem of ethnic cleansing, of occupation, of economic exploitation, etc.


Moreover, it is fascinating to hear critics like yourself say things (when convenient) like, "why aren't the Palestinians doing more to create a real state instead of just trying to kill Jews?" Then, some report like this comes out, showing that the Palestinians are ranking 88th behind paradises like Albania, Khazakstan, and Sri Lanka while Israel is doing well (22nd) and you say, "Gee, the Palestinians are doing fine, so the problem must be that they just want to kill Jews": which is the logical extention of your argument about suicide bombers, though you would never be brave enough to say it outright. The mind boggles at the perfidous opportunism.


Still further, we ought to be cognisant of how these numbers were tabulated, and from what data. In 2001, the PA was at the end of a process of building an impressive amount of infrastructure in a short period of time - of course it was necessary for the IDF to be out of the way to have this take place; conditions in the territories in the 1970's and 1980's particularly were nothing to smile about. Those institutions that did exist were designed to serve Israel - to provide cheap labour for Israeli markets, to use the territories as way to break the Arab boycott, and above all to keep any effective Palestinian national political movement from arising. Now, in the past couple of years we see that the prime targets of the IDF and Sharon's bulldozers have been exactly these pieces of infrastructure which would give 'flesh and bones' so-to-speak to the Palestinian national claim. The question can only be, "what's the pattern?" It's simple - destroy any vestiges of real sovereign statehood that might appear in the illegally occupied territories, continue to expand settlements ceaselessly, then periodically offer a 'peace' based on the fait accomplit you have deliberately created. In the words of the Israeli Chief of Staff, Moshe Ya'alon, to ensure that the Palestinians realise in the "recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people."

And finally, the important thing to remember is how truly pessimistic and nihilist - not to mention racist - is your conception of what constitutes a humane existence. Your argument is underpinned by the idea that a certain modicum of education, of relief from absolute material lack, and clean water ought to be enough for people. What this misses is the fact that the desire for Justice, Freedom, and the right to be treated as equals with others are also deeply human characteristics. So perhaps a kid in the West Bank has a new pair of Levis - so what? If he can't wear them out of the house because there is a curfew, and he can't visit his friends because of a checkpoint, and he can't wear them in the place that his grandfather called 'home', what are they good to him? Moreover, he is supposed to be satisfied with this according to you, though it is doubtlessly okay for a an Israeli to want Justice, Freedom, and to live in the land that his distant relatives MAY have lived on a few thousand years ago. And you are willing to justify the ethnic cleansing of 1948, the settlements, the occupation and so much more in light of this 'desire for security and Justice'.


Good try Mishei, but you come up short, as usual. And, as usual, I'm glad to be the fella who calls your bluff.

[ 10 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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DrConway
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posted 10 July 2003 10:20 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:
Still further, we ought to be cognisant of how these numbers were tabulated, and from what data. In 2001, the PA was at the end of a process of building an impressive amount of infrastructure in a short period of time

This brings up a question I've been wondering about. Arafat has allegedly grabbed at the money that was provided for infrastructure improvement, and pro-Israeli groups often accuse the Palestinian Authority of having many corrupt officials in it.

Where is Arafat's alleged multimillion-dollar bank account, anyhow?

The chicken-and-egg issue of corruption is also thus:

Are PA officials corrupt because they see easy money or because nobody who is competent, honest and capable wants a government job in the PA that likely pays very little?

Corruption is often cured as much by pay raises as it is by booting some high-profile offenders out.

PS: Courage, Mishei will now haul out Barak's "generous" offer and the hoary decontextualized claim that Arafat rejected it and brought all this on himself, now that you have mentioned the decay of PA infrastructure.

[ 10 July 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 10 July 2003 10:20 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

When it comes to you, this is sooo true. Let's have a look at your spin above in more depth. What you gloss over in your accolades about the stunning comfort that the Palestinians are living in, is the relative nature of poverty. It's one thing to be 'poor'. It's another thing to be poor and look over the fence and see someone swimming in a nice pool on land that your father and grandfather used to till and care for. In other words, your malarky argument glosses over a basic question: how is it that the Palestinians came to be living in relatively terrible conditions *compared* to their next door neighbours? Then we get the problem of ethnic cleansing, of occupation, of economic exploitation, etc.


Moreover, it is fascinating to hear critics like yourself say things (when convenient) like, "why aren't the Palestinians doing more to create a real state instead of just trying to kill Jews?" Then, some report like this comes out, showing that the Palestinians are ranking 88th behind paradises like Albania, Khazakstan, and Sri Lanka while Israel is doing well (22nd) and you say, "Gee, the Palestinians are doing fine, so the problem must be that they just want to kill Jews": which is the logical extention of your argument about suicide bombers, though you would never be brave enough to say it outright. The mind boggles at the perfidous opportunism.


Still further, we ought to be cognisant of how these numbers were tabulated, and from what data. In 2001, the PA was at the end of a process of building an impressive amount of infrastructure in a short period of time - of course it was necessary for the IDF to be out of the way to have this take place; conditions in the territories in the 1970's and 1980's particularly were nothing to smile about. Those institutions that did exist were designed to serve Israel - to provide cheap labour for Israeli markets, to use the territories as way to break the Arab boycott, and above all to keep any effective Palestinian national political movement from arising. Now, in the past couple of years we see that the prime targets of the IDF and Sharon's bulldozers have been exactly these pieces of infrastructure which would give 'flesh and bones' so-to-speak to the Palestinian national claim. The question can only be, "what's the pattern?" It's simple - destroy any vestiges of real sovereign statehood that might appear in the illegally occupied territories, continue to expand settlements ceaselessly, then periodically offer a 'peace' based on the fait accomplit you have deliberately created. In the words of the Israeli Chief of Staff, Moshe Ya'alon, to ensure that the Palestinians realise in the "recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people."

And finally, the important thing to remember is how truly pessimistic and nihilist - not to mention racist - is your conception of what constitutes a humane existence. Your argument is underpinned by the idea that a certain modicum of education, of relief from absolute material lack, and clean water ought to be enough for people. What this misses is the fact that the desire for Justice, Freedom, and the right to be treated as equals with others are also deeply human characteristics. So perhaps a kid in the West Bank has a new pair of Levis - so what? If he can't wear them out of the house because there is a curfew, and he can't visit his friends because of a checkpoint, and he can't wear them in the place that his grandfather called 'home', what are they good to him? Moreover, he is supposed to be satisfied with this according to you, though it is doubtlessly okay for a an Israeli to want Justice, Freedom, and to live in the land that his distant relatives MAY have lived on a few thousand years ago. And you are willing to justify the ethnic cleansing of 1948, the settlements, the occupation and so much more in light of this 'desire for security and Justice'.


Good try Mishei, but you come up short, as usual. And, as usual, I'm glad to be the fella who calls your bluff.

[ 10 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


Hmmm I said/thought/implied/suggested/logically extended my argument/all that huh? You are certainly one prolific poster Courage. And your imagination when it comes to what you think people say/imply/suggest/logically extend an argument is breathtaking.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 10 July 2003 10:24 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Not at all bad considering it ranks ahead of Egypt, Syria, Iran etc.

There you go again. Comparing Israel with countries that would come in dead last in almost any quality of life index.

Comparing a country with others that come in dead last is like having a weightlifting contest with a child. Sure, you'll win, but anybody with half a brain would stop and ask if you could win a contest against someone your own size.

quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Hmmm I said/thought/implied/suggested/logically extended my argument/all that huh? You are certainly one prolific poster Courage. And your imagination when it comes to what you think people say/imply/suggest/logically extend an argument is breathtaking.

You manage to do a lot of your own unwarranted interpretation and extension of what other people say. "Look inside yourselves", indeed.

[ 10 July 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 10 July 2003 10:28 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Hmmm I said/thought/implied/suggested/logically extended my argument/all that huh? You are certainly one prolific poster Courage. And your imagination when it comes to what you think people say/imply/suggest/logically extend an argument is breathtaking.

Having read a lot of posts by you over the last few months one thing stands out: it is very rarely what you say that is problematic, it's what you don't say. It's the stuff lurking in the corners of your illicit implications, obfuscations, and absurd equivocations that is of the utmost importance.

Let's look at the current case, shall we? What is the implication of a statement like,"According to many the Intifada began out of sheer desperation. Suicide/homicide bombers arose out of the squalor and hell that Israel perpetrated in the PA. Yet if this study is to be believed the PA while not ranking in the top 10 , given all that has been alluded to regarding their living conditions, did not fare all that badly."

So why did they do it? Are they crazy? Perhaps. But without political and economic motivation, we are left with what? I rule this out because anyone who reads your posts knows your are hardly going to admit that Israel had responsibility in the matter. So what are we left with? Homicidal maniacs? OR, what you won't say: they just hate Jews. Please, give us another theory if you have one.

Interestingly though, you spelled it out even more clearly - though not totally - in this piece that I didn't see before now: "Im saying that the conditions did not warrant Islamic terrorists goading young kids into strapping bombs to theior bodies and murdering other innocent young kids. That is what I am saying."

This justifies my argument that you glossed over the relativity of conditions and what importance that might play - not to mention that the 'relativity' question opens up the political issue of ethnic cleansing, occupation, settlements, etc. Again, what you didn't say is important. The above also justifies my questioning your view of humanity. So what if their 'material conditions' weren't 'all that bad', what about the other issues - Justice, Freedom, the right to walk land you call home whenever you want? It's what you didn't say that was important. On the other hand, your statement leads us to ask, "Are there conditions under which it WOULD be acceptable to goad kids into suicide bombing?" But if it were only your intent to say that suicide bombing is wrong, why the need for the context of this report? One is surely left trying to clarify the usual muddy mess you leave behind.

And, this brings us to the issue of motivation; what's left as a motivation? They are crazy and homicidal? Granted. But why? Again, unless you have opened up a new door in yourself and are willing to admit Israel has some guilt in this situation, we have to look elsewhere. So, do they do it just because? Or because they just hate (are trained to hate) Jews? I suspect you are going for the latter. If you have an alternate theory, please tell us about it.

And, one last thing - I will note, as I always do, that you have made no effort to 'unpack' anything that I have said while 'unpacking' your argument. As usual your response is utterly underwhelming. You've headed right into the personal rhetoric.

Are you slow?

[ 10 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 July 2003 10:31 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Hmmm I said/thought/implied/suggested/logically extended my argument/all that huh?

So what are you implying, then? Because of the typical lack of clarity in your, "...did not fare that badly" you invite an analysis such as that made by Courage.


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Mishei
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posted 11 July 2003 12:30 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are you slow?


Your sophistry never ceases to amaze me. Your telepathic powers take my breath away. Gee you are such a smart guy. Where did you learn to write like that? You must have gone to school.

All this said if you think you are impressing me with your patronizing bullshit...forget it.


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Smith
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posted 11 July 2003 12:38 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, you really have headed right into the personal rhetoric.

Okay, so the "are you slow" question was offensive to you. What about the rest of Courage's post?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 11 July 2003 12:54 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
Wow, you really have headed right into the personal rhetoric.

Okay, so the "are you slow" question was offensive to you. What about the rest of Courage's post?


I guess he's just too smart for me. Frankly, I just will not indulge his sophistry. I have answered his direct questions on many occassions and you know it.

I have never claimed ever that Israel does not share in some responsibility regarding the crisis. I have critisized the settler movement and praised Palestinian moderates like Sarei Nuseibah who are genuinely interested in peace.

I will not defend my record and frankly refuse to accept Courage's attempts at reading my mind and interpreting my words. My words and posts are there for all to see. If Courage or anyone else wishes to see something else they are welcome to it. But I tell you here and now that it is fabrication and bullshit. I will not engage him further so that he can continue to get his jollies.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 11 July 2003 12:56 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Your sophistry never ceases to amaze me. Your telepathic powers take my breath away. Gee you are such a smart guy. Where did you learn to write like that? You must have gone to school.

All this said if you think you are impressing me with your patronizing bullshit...forget it.


Do you even know what 'sophistry' means? I suspect you do not.

Are you going to get around to refuting anything I said, or are you going to go through the usual humiliating ritual where you just toss out ineffectual insults like a child? Let's see, we have:

1) Hypocritically making personal remarks when you don't like them made at you.

2) The logical fallacy of arguing style over substance.

3) The usual thing where you claim that I 'got it all wrong' but you are incapable of showing anyone exactly what it is I got wrong.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 11 July 2003 01:06 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
I guess he's just too smart for me. Frankly, I just will not indulge his sophistry. I have answered his direct questions on many occassions and you know it.

Barely.

quote:
I have never claimed ever that Israel does not share in some responsibility regarding the crisis.

The issue is, what degree of responsibility? The issue is that in your argument above - regardless of what you may have said in the past - you glossed right over the issue of Israeli responsibility for the position the Palestinians are in. Instead of seeing the massive disparity in the HDI for Israel and Occupied Palestine as a sign of a deep problem - an effect of Israeli policy, you tried to slough off the issue and suggest, and I quote, that conditions in the Palestinian territories, which are largely the results of Israeli occupation, etc. aren't, "all that (bad)." No interpretation needed, Mishei, it's there in black and white.

In short, Mishei, you argued that the results of Israeli occupation, etc., weren't "all that (bad)." And how did you do it? By fudging around with meaningless rankings without any attention to what the rankings really signify. By glossing over the political relations that have lead to the great disparity, and in so doing, attempted to minimise Palestinian suffering: they haven't "faired all that badly". Your words, not my 'imagination', or my 'sophistry' or my 'ESP'. Just the text on the page.


Either by sloppiness or deliberate tactic, that is one fine apologetic.


That's the black and the white of it.

[ 11 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 11 July 2003 01:08 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Do you even know what 'sophistry' means? I suspect you do not.

Are you going to get around to refuting anything I said, or are you going to go through the usual humiliating ritual where you just toss out ineffectual insults like a child? Let's see, we have:

1) Hypocritically making personal remarks when you don't like them made at you.

2) The logical fallacy of arguing style over substance.

3) The usual thing where you claim that I 'got it all wrong' but you are incapable of showing anyone exactly what it is I got wrong.



You are a patronizing bully of the worst kind. You are the child my friend who in the school yard berates his school chums who don't want to play with him .

You are the one who must be slow. (and you talk about me insulting you..give me a break..) Your attitude and behaviour is so outrageous that I will not respond to your incessant demands. Take that as you will but I recall that one time when I inappropriately suggested that a poster on Babble was "Immature" I was berated by many including the moderator for being so condescending. I was asked not to behave in such a denigrating manner. Hopefully you will be told the same but Im not holding my breath. Now as some here would say..."go away"


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 11 July 2003 01:17 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
[QB]
You are a patronizing bully of the worst kind. You are the child my friend who in the school yard berates his school chums who don't want to play with him .

I don't care if you play or not. There is an interesting pattern though: you slip in an offensive argument, I call you on it, and you call me names and say I don't play nice, but you never actually back up your position. It's always the same, and as you say, your posts are all there for people to read.


quote:
I recall that one time when I inappropriately suggested that a poster on Babble was "Immature" I was berated by many including the moderator for being so condescending. I was asked not to behave in such a denigrating manner. Hopefully you will be told the same but Im not holding my breath. Now as some here would say..."go away"

Do you want a list of the things you've accused me of?

Bare your teeth some more, Mishei, it's quite becoming.

Anyway, the long and short is this: you can't defend your attempt to minimise the role of Israel in Palestinian suffering, so you are going to berate me for not playing nice, and take your ball and go home.

For posterity: "According to many the Intifada began out of sheer desperation. Suicide/homicide bombers arose out of the squalor and hell that Israel perpetrated in the PA. Yet if this study is to be believed the PA while not ranking in the top 10 , given all that has been alluded to regarding their living conditions, did not fare all that badly."

Translation: things are just rosey for the Palestinians. Either sloppy, or just an apologist, maybe both...

Happy trails.

[ 11 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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Babbler # 3192

posted 11 July 2003 01:59 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have answered his direct questions on many occassions and you know it.

Okay, then why don't you continue to do so?

quote:

You are a patronizing bully of the worst kind. You are the child my friend who in the school yard berates his school chums who don't want to play with him .

You really like that analogy, don't you? You've used it on me repeatedly...

quote:

Your attitude and behaviour is so outrageous that I will not respond to your incessant demands.

If you don't like being personally attacked, perhaps you shouldn't deal out personal attacks. Calling other people "children," "bullies," "fetishists," "sophists," etc., etc., etc...well, you know, it doesn't do much for your argument.

quote:

Take that as you will but I recall that one time when I inappropriately suggested that a poster on Babble was "Immature" I was berated by many including the moderator for being so condescending. I was asked not to behave in such a denigrating manner.

As I recall, you went on at greater length than that and you did it repeatedly. I don't think you are in a position to berate others in this way.

Not to mention that if you actually had an argument against the points Courage is bringing up, one might think you would bring it up instead of bringing up schoolyard metaphors...


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 July 2003 02:42 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Same old, same old.

Rather than debate with "reason and passion," our hero resorts to playground name-calling: "I know you are, but what am I?" "I'm not playing with you, you're not nice."

I suppose it's an improvement, though, over insinuating that someone's an antisemite.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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Babbler # 3192

posted 11 July 2003 02:48 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Come now. I don't think anyone would seriously argue that Mishei is lacking in passion...
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 11 July 2003 03:18 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei is right about one thing - there is no need to resort to asking people if they're "slow".

But as for the claim that Courage is being a "bully" - I think that's ridiculous. If you don't want your arguments held up to scrutiny, then you're probably not posting them in the best location. That's what babble is all about.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 11 July 2003 03:39 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Mishei is right about one thing - there is no need to resort to asking people if they're "slow".

But as for the claim that Courage is being a "bully" - I think that's ridiculous. If you don't want your arguments held up to scrutiny, then you're probably not posting them in the best location. That's what babble is all about.


Sorry about the 'slow' thing. However, let me give it some context. Yesterday, on another post, after having the same question asked (and answered) twice by Mishei, I impatiently retorted, "Are you slow". He asked me if I meant it sincerely, and if so, that he was hurt. I apologised on the grounds that it was simply rhetoric and that I meant no harm to him for any particular disability he, or anyone else might have. I assumed our exchange to include the implicit tenet that he didn't think personal attacks were a good idea. So, tonight, after Mishei went straight for the personal garbage, I asked 'Are you slow' as a reference to that earlier conversation, and to the hypocrisy of his personal attacks.

That doesn't excuse the first infraction, nor the second, but that's the context, if it helps me at all.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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Babbler # 3830

posted 11 July 2003 04:34 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

I just read most of these posts, and one thing that you said mish is this
quote:
Islamic terrorists
Now... Had I said "Jewish Terrorist", you would have slandered me for being anti-semetic. I really think that that was unappropriate and racist.

You claim you are a person of peace? democracy? an advocate of human rights? A critisizer of violations of those rights? Someone who is so convinced that their right about everything they know? You my friend are the deepest of the deepest scum on earth.

What Mishei failed to say is that these people whom he refers to as "Islamic Terrorist" are infact Palestinian People. When I come on here and talk about the 2 nations, I refer to Israel... Not Jews, not Christians and not Muslims. Palestinians Mishei. You have truly unveiled in recent while that you are infact a racist and selfish prick.

You reference only inforces that you do not regognize the Palestinians as the "terrorists", how ever you have regognize a religion as the terrorists.

Take a deep breath, relax, play with yourself and then come back when you feel like an intelligent adult.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 11 July 2003 08:07 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No. He was clearly referring to the Palestinians who engage in suicide bombings and violence. I think we're reaching for straws here.

BTW, Mishei, I just noticed that you posted the entire article at the beginning of this thread. It doesn't matter if it's difficult to access the Jerusalem Post, it still violates copyright to post the whole thing. Would you mind editing it down to a relevant paragraph or two since you have the link?

[ 11 July 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 11 July 2003 09:11 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
No. He was clearly referring to the Palestinians who engage in suicide bombings and violence. I think we're reaching for straws here.

BTW, Mishei, I just noticed that you posted the entire article at the beginning of this thread. It doesn't matter if it's difficult to access the Jerusalem Post, it still violates copyright to post the whole thing. Would you mind editing it down to a relevant paragraph or two since you have the link?

[ 11 July 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]



I would but when I go in to "edit" the artiicle does not show up!!

And a request for a ruling on policy Michelle. Blind-Patriot refers to me as follows:

quote:
You my friend are the deepest of the deepest scum on earth.

Now my feelings are not at all hurt since such "deep scum" could not possibly have feelings...however I have seen many rightly chastized for far less personal scurillous attacks. Are we now permitted on Babble to engage such insidiously extreme personal ad hominem attacks? If so I believe there will be many lining up here to see if they can best Blind-Patriots colourful description. Who knows where this can end up. I realize I have not always been an angel when it comes to expressing my anger but surely when you engage in the rhetoric that Blind Patriot has one must say enough. However if that is not the case please let us know . Im sure many are sharpening their swords as they await your ruling.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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Babbler # 3192

posted 11 July 2003 09:25 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yup. The world revolves around Mishei.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 11 July 2003 09:26 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
Yup. The world revolves around Mishei.
Thanks Michelle


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 11 July 2003 09:55 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sorry - I actually didn't notice that part of his post - honestly, I skimmed over it and didn't see it because I was concentrating on the "Islamic terrorists" accusation he leveled at you.

Blind_Patriot, Mishei is right. You know that's not appropriate.

And it has nothing to do with the world revolving around Mishei. Most babblers don't consider it self-centred to point out such insults.

Enough of the hostility, please.

BTW, what were you thanking me for, Mishei? I don't understand. First you quoted Smith and then thanked me. What's that all about?

[ 11 July 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 11 July 2003 10:13 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
With respect to Mishei's initial post, is the ranking supposed to make the Palestinians feel better about being occupied? I'm sure that France, Holland and Denmark had a very high ranking while being occupied by the Germans in WWII. Was that supposed to offset the fact that they were under occupation?

It really is a silly argument.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 11 July 2003 10:30 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BTW, what were you thanking me for, Mishei? I don't understand. First you quoted Smith and then thanked me. What's that all about?


Well I asked you for a ruling and then Smith piped in. Get it Smith answering for Michelle...?? Clearly a rather poor attempt at sarcasm.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 11 July 2003 10:36 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh. Whoops. I thought maybe you were upset with me for not writing right away or something.

Anyhow, thanks josh, for getting the discussion back on track. I agree with your sentiments. I'd be willing to bet that the occupied and occupiers were likely closer in "ranking" in Europe (if there had been ranking then) than Israel and the Occupied Territories. So not only do the Palestinians have their occupied status pissing them off, but a huge disparity in living standards between themselves and the people who have taken over their land. Doesn't matter if Iran has a lower ranking than the Palestinians. Iranians are not under occupation and watching their occupiers living off the fat of their land.

[ 11 July 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 July 2003 01:08 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If it's "not so bad" in the PA now, imagine what it could be like without an invading army shooting at the population and bulldozing their homes, stealing their water, ripping up their orchards and olive groves, building walls around them, imposing curfews, allowing settlers to steal the best land...

Canadians would be emigrating to Palestine!


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 11 July 2003 02:00 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
With respect to Mishei's initial post, is the ranking supposed to make the Palestinians feel better about being occupied? I'm sure that France, Holland and Denmark had a very high ranking while being occupied by the Germans in WWII. Was that supposed to offset the fact that they were under occupation?

It really is a silly argument.


Now you are just trying to 'Nazify' Israel...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 11 July 2003 02:50 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Im sure many are sharpening their swords as they await your ruling.

Tell me, do you ever feel like the guardian at the gate, Mish?

"...we learned from Hitler in Munich that success only feeds the appetite of aggression."

. Lyndon Johnson


I don't know about the state of others' swords, but I have a sink full of water balloons with your name on them, just waiting for a favourable ruling.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 11 July 2003 03:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Point of information:

I have never been to Palestine. Could someone who has please tell me what is good there, or nice there?

I don't just mean the people -- I assume that most are, like most people most places. Obviously, though, there are good things about their lives and the place.

It is hard for me to imagine much more than the piles of rubble I've seen photographed. I'm sure that olive groves are beautiful, but so many are being ripped up or confiscated.

I know the food is great. Weather? Help?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 11 July 2003 03:30 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Jews only roads are very well paved and maintained. The checkpoints are scenic in their own way. There are some nice views of well irrigated land in the settlements if you can get close enough to the fences without the IDF shooting at you...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 11 July 2003 05:09 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have been to Palestine prior to the intifada. The towns and cities are very much like any other town in the Middle-east.
But what made life there better than other Middle-eastern countries is the high income. Families there saved money, they travelled to and from Jordan often, they spent a lot on education, food, and electronics. They had personal computers and mobile phones long before they were introduced in the rest of the middle-east. They also have high-speed Internet access in their homes, which is still a luxury on the other side of the river.

From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3851

posted 12 July 2003 03:02 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Now you are just trying to 'Nazify' Israel...


I have once again been following this and other threads and must admit that it almost seems predictable that Courage especially will find a way to taunt with nazi allusions pertaining to Israel.

You really have to question why he would do this . I cannot help but think that it is an attempt at what is referred to as a "troll".


From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
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posted 12 July 2003 03:25 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe Courage is part of a general trend?

I was looking through a copy of the Alternative Press Review this week and found they had an article on "The Nazification of Israel" among other articles about Israel's racist character.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 12 July 2003 03:51 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You haven't heard of irony or satire, have you, Zisel?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 July 2003 03:55 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please stop this. Zisel, Courage was making a joke based on a big discussion we had on another thread about using Nazi comparisons. I don't want to get into the whole debate here, so please don't throw the thread off track.

And Courage - I hope if this thread does go off track that your little dig was worth it. Thanks bunches!

[ 12 July 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 July 2003 06:08 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Please stop this. Zisel, Courage was making a joke based on a big discussion we had on another thread about using Nazi comparisons. I don't want to get into the whole debate here, so please don't throw the thread off track.

And Courage - I hope if this thread does go off track that your little dig was worth it. Thanks bunches!

[ 12 July 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


What an occaision, though: Zisel is back.

Sorry if I create and headaches for you. I've got a cantankerousness problem... It runs in my family, and I'm upset that you would single me out this way for something that has afflicted me, and that I just can't help. I'm hurt Michelle.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 July 2003 06:10 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hardy har.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 14 July 2003 12:25 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
You haven't heard of irony or satire, have you, Zisel?

It is sometimes difficult to deal with sarcasm when it comes to "nazis".

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830

posted 14 July 2003 09:53 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
No. He was clearly referring to the Palestinians who engage in suicide bombings and violence. I think we're reaching for straws here.

BTW, Mishei, I just noticed that you posted the entire article at the beginning of this thread. It doesn't matter if it's difficult to access the Jerusalem Post, it still violates copyright to post the whole thing. Would you mind editing it down to a relevant paragraph or two since you have the link?

[ 11 July 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


Sorry Michelle, I think you are totally wrong about this. He was not reffering to Palestinians, he was reffering to a religion. Mishei is a closet racist.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 July 2003 12:48 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

It is sometimes difficult to deal with sarcasm when it comes to "nazis".

Looks more like you have difficulty dealing with sarcasm about your lame arguments...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peter2003
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4264

posted 15 July 2003 05:28 PM      Profile for Peter2003     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei points about UN rankings are not valid in my opinion. First of all the whole validity of the rankings are in question, Canada has dropped to number eight from three, does that mean that we are worst off than we were a year ago, not likely!
Regarding Israel, these rankings only included the state of Israel and not the occupied territories, if West Bank and Gaza would have been evaluated in terms of standard of living, health, education, etc they would have been ranked at the very bottom of the list, thanks to the illegal occupiers!

From: Calgary | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 15 July 2003 05:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
Sorry Michelle, I think you are totally wrong about this. He was not reffering to Palestinians, he was reffering to a religion. Mishei is a closet racist.

Was I now? Either prove it or aplogize. Right an apology from Blind for misrepresenting me yet again This is becoming a habit Blind.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 15 July 2003 06:22 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Islamic Terroists"?? Wouldn't the more "proper" terms be Palestinain Suicide bombers, or Hammas (or other terrorist group) terrorists??

Islamic terrorist seems a pretty broad brush to be using.

Can you explain why you think using "Islamic" is the more appropiate term to use in the case you were making??

Not that I want to get too picky, but seems that some people get pretty upset around here if you don't use the proper "qulaifier" with the "demonization" of other people!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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Babbler # 3830

posted 16 July 2003 11:24 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Was I now? Either prove it or aplogize. Right an apology from Blind for misrepresenting me yet again This is becoming a habit Blind.

It was not neccessary to slip the word "Islamic" to your so called terrorists. That in itself is trying to demonize a religion and it it's people in hopes of producing negative views of that religion. Perhaps had you said Islamic extremists, I might have not been so quick to respond to your racist comments.

I have no misrepresentations of you and no apologies to make. You continue to bullshit people about how peace loving and politically correct you are. I'm just exposing you for the racist scum you really are. The amount of accusations by you of people being anti-semetic on this board is outrageous and unsubstantiated, even more so... insulting. Apologies? Never Mishei. I'll wait for yours!


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 16 July 2003 11:52 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
It was not neccessary to slip the word "Islamic" to your so called terrorists. That in itself is trying to demonize a religion and it it's people in hopes of producing negative views of that religion. Perhaps had you said Islamic extremists, I might have not been so quick to respond to your racist comments.

I have no misrepresentations of you and no apologies to make. You continue to bullshit people about how peace loving and politically correct you are. I'm just exposing you for the racist scum you really are. The amount of accusations by you of people being anti-semetic on this board is outrageous and unsubstantiated, even more so... insulting. Apologies? Never Mishei. I'll wait for yours!


People here have freely used terms such as "Jewish terrorist" when referring to people like Baruch Goldberg. I dont like it but it is not racist. Islamic terrorist fits into that category. To call me "racist scum" as a result of using that phrase is a direct contravention of babble policy.

I will not stand for it. As such I will bring this to the attention of the moderator for her assessment.

[ 16 July 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830

posted 16 July 2003 12:28 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How Predictable. I quite amazed how long you have lasted on this board with your racist posts, and the amount of people you manage to get booted.
From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 16 July 2003 12:54 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
How Predictable. I quite amazed how long you have lasted on this board with your racist posts, and the amount of people you manage to get booted.
I have reported your ongoing attempt at breaking babble policy. You are shameless in your attacks and it discredits you as a person never mind any arguments you make here

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 16 July 2003 01:04 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
People here have freely used terms such as "Jewish terrorist"

When???

I don't think I would call that expression racist, exactly, but I would certainly call it bigoted, and I would have reacted to it if I'd ever seen it.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 16 July 2003 01:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
PS: Since Islam is not a race, I would similarly call the expression "Islamic terrorists" bigoted rather than racist.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 16 July 2003 01:06 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I will not stand for it.

Do stamp your feet while you are at it.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830

posted 16 July 2003 01:37 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
PS: Since Islam is not a race, I would similarly call the expression "Islamic terrorists" bigoted rather than racist.
Your right!

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830

posted 16 July 2003 01:44 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
I have reported your ongoing attempt at breaking babble policy. You are shameless in your attacks and it discredits you as a person never mind any arguments you make here

This is your way of debating my FACTS !!! I only learned how to attack from you Mishei. When I first came on babble, I certainly noticed right away your hypocritical accusations of other babblers and your constant lashing out in anger. Take a pill or seek counselling.

Do you know the song Jeremy from Pearl Jam?

At home, drawing pictures
Of mountain tops
With him on top
Lemon yellow sun
Arms raised in a V
The dead lay in pools of maroon below

Daddy didn't give attention
To the fact that Mommy didn't care
King Jeremy the Wicked, ruled his world...


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peter2003
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4264

posted 16 July 2003 02:41 PM      Profile for Peter2003     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Quote:

"How Predictable. I quite amazed how long you have lasted on this board with your racist posts, and the amount of people you manage to get booted."

You are absolutely right Blind_Patriot. Mishei is a well known Zionist with total hatred toward certain race and certain religion and he/she makes no excuses about it. When is Audra gonna do the right thing and kick her out of this message board.
Let's start a petition to can her sorry misreable ass!


From: Calgary | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 16 July 2003 02:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:

Do stamp your feet while you are at it.


Did you ever get that gig on the gong show?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 16 July 2003 02:48 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peter2003:
Quote:

"How Predictable. I quite amazed how long you have lasted on this board with your racist posts, and the amount of people you manage to get booted."

You are absolutely right Blind_Patriot. Mishei is a well known Zionist with total hatred toward certain race and certain religion and he/she makes no excuses about it. When is Audra gonna do the right thing and kick her out of this message board.
Let's start a petition to can her sorry misreable ass!



Yes Peter. BTW you are a progressive are you? And you can back up your accusations here can you?

I await your petition and suspect it will have the same effect a petition has in Parliament.

BTW, out of curiosity, how many here believe it is proper to use petitions on this progessive chat board to get rid of people you dont like?

[ 16 July 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2798

posted 16 July 2003 06:34 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As much as I despise Zionists and other bigots I would never want anyone banned from babble for expressing their opinions.
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 16 July 2003 07:27 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peter2003 - that last post of yours was uncalled for. How be you let the moderators decide who can and cannot post on babble? We don't decide on people's membership here by "petition". You might want to think about the policy YOU agreed to when you signed up.

I have meant to get back to this thread for a day or two now and I haven't, sorry, been busy for the last few days. As I said in the thread I just closed, I DO think "Islamic Terrorists" is problematic, although I honestly think Mishei just didn't think it through enough before he wrote it, which is why I downplayed it at first. I don't think we should accept "Islamic terrorists" any more than we should accept a term like "Jewish terrorists".

However, it sure would be nice if people could refrain from raising the thread to a fever pitch by calling others loaded names like "racist scum" when trying to point out each other's errors.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830

posted 16 July 2003 07:27 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BTW, out of curiosity, how many here believe it is proper to use petitions on this progessive chat board to get rid of people you dont like?
Maybe we should just complain to the moderator as you always do.
quote:
As much as I despise Zionists and other bigots I would never want anyone banned from babble for expressing their opinions.
Even when babblers have defended themselves against racist accusations, I've seen them get kicked.
quote:
From another thread:
but I don't think Mishei meant it in the way it was taken, even if his choice of words was unfortunate
Sorry Michelle, I don't buy it.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 16 July 2003 07:41 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fine. Then say so. But don't call him "racist scum", please.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 16 July 2003 07:50 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First we have this:
quote:
I have reported your ongoing attempt at breaking babble policy. You are shameless in your attacks and it discredits you as a person never mind any arguments you make here

And then this:
quote:
BTW, out of curiosity, how many here believe it is proper to use petitions on this progessive chat board to get rid of people you dont like?

Absolutely shameless.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 16 July 2003 08:14 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BTW, out of curiosity, how many here believe it is proper to use petitions on this progessive chat board to get rid of people you dont like?

Not moi, for sure.

What is this, grade ten? We're running babble as a popularity contest? Stuff that.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 16 July 2003 08:18 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Drat.

As soon as I write that, I remember that we have several distinguished babblers of long standing who are in grade ten, or thereabouts.

Shame on me and my age-ism.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 16 July 2003 08:59 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peter2003, what makes you think the WB and Gaza would be at the very bottom of the list?

I agree they're not well off, but IIRC we had another poster named Peter who was pretty openly anti-Semitic and insisted that the plight of the Palestinians was significantly worse than the Holocaust, so please forgive me for being cautious.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 17 July 2003 12:07 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You also gotta admit that comparing yourself with the guys that come in dead last is just a way of making yourself look like a chump by lording it over the ones that didn't make it, instead of comparing yourself with the guys that finished first and asking what you could do to improve things.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 17 July 2003 12:22 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK for the record I menat no disrespect when I used the term "Islamic terrorist". I won't get into this again other than to say that it clearly offends and I intend not to use the term again.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged

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