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Author Topic: The real Ariel Sharon
josh
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posted 08 July 2003 08:02 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He hasn't changed. The "road map" is his map, and it won't lead to an independent and viable Palestinian state:

http://www.counterpunch.com/hallinan06232003.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 July 2003 08:12 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For some reason I can't copy from that site; but read the statement from General Moshe Ya'alon, which echoes another from Sharon, quoted earlier. These people are deeply unwell. There is no word but sadism for such intent, such reflectively understood and intentional purpose.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 08 July 2003 08:30 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
For some reason I can't copy from that site; but read the statement from General Moshe Ya'alon, which echoes another from Sharon, quoted earlier. These people are deeply unwell. There is no word but sadism for such intent, such reflectively understood and intentional purpose.

Ya'alon is scum. He's the guy who compared the Palestinians to a 'cancerous manifestation' - a threat to the Israeli national body - and IDF action as a kind of chemotherapy. This kind of 'embodiment' of the nation and the need to expunge the diseased 'Other' is vintage European racism of the Gobineau-esque, Hitlerian type.

This is their Chief of Staff. Not some fringe player or deranged settler.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 08 July 2003 08:35 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That article only confirms for me what I already believe: Israel is a racist state and the leadership is as extremist and cruel as Hamas or any other Palestinian extremist group.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 08 July 2003 08:42 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl:

This may be the quote you're trying to copy:

quote:
The Prime Minister has also surrounded himself with similar-minded people. His Israeli Defense Forces Chief of Staff, General Moshe Ya'alon says his job vis-a-vis the Palestinians is to get them to accept that "in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people."

It's statements like this from the men on the 'business end' of the operation that make me really wonder how some people cannot see the clear, consistent intention of the Israeli state to commit 'politicide' on the Palestinians. How one could read these words and not immediately think of Jabotinsky's 'Iron Wall' is beyond me (assuming, that is, that you have ever bothered to read Jabotinsky). There is no deep dark antisemitic conspiracy theory here, just the plain simple statements of the men (and they are almost always men) in charge of carrying out this aim.

[ 08 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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skdadl
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posted 08 July 2003 08:48 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"in the deepest recesses of their consciousness" ... that's it. And Sharon says something similar earlier.

Textbook case. Never spend any time at all anywhere near anyone who talks like that. If you have the choice, of course. Sadly, the Palestinians don't.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 08 July 2003 09:00 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What these bastards fail to comprhend is that it is those who are most desperate and with nothing tro lose who are also most dangerous.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 08 July 2003 09:06 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This kind of 'embodiment' of the nation and the need to expunge the diseased 'Other' is vintage European racism of the Gobineau-esque, Hitlerian type.

I wondered how long it would be before Nazi comparisions to Israelis would resurface here.

Such comparisions are sick. They make a mockery of Hitler's vast crimes and they belittle the deaths of his victims. Keep talking amongst yourseleves. You people on this thread are the only ones who are listening to each other especially when one of you goes so far off the deep end with nazi imagery. SHAME ON YOU.


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'lance
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posted 08 July 2003 09:09 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So how, Mishei, would you characterize Ya'alon's "cancerous manifestation" rhetoric?
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 July 2003 09:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, Mishei, not this time.

As someone says above, if the Israeli Chief of Staff thinks and talks like that, then the world has got a problem.

The world, Mishei. The whole world.


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Mycroft_
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posted 08 July 2003 09:21 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So how, Mishei, would you characterize Ya'alon's "cancerous manifestation" rhetoric?

Frankly, Mishei, one of the things that "distinguished" the Nazis from garden variety anti-Semites was their elevation of anti-Semitism to biological levels. Unlike with traditional anti-Semitism the problem with the Jews was not their beliefs or behaviour (problems which could be "solved" through conversion) rather it was of a "scientific" nature, the Jews were biologically inferior and the language the Nazis adopted to promote their anti-Semitism talked about the Jews in biological terms as a "bascillius" which needs to be eradicated.

Despite your refusal to admit it, the use of terms like "cancerous manifestation" shows a far deeper form of racism something much closer to Nazi beliefs regarding other races than what you find in garden variety bigotry. (What do you do to a cancer, Mishei?)

It's unfortunate that you've chosen to condemn Courage's rhetoric and ignore that of the Israeli Chief of Staff which is much more troubling.

[ 08 July 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


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DrConway
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posted 08 July 2003 09:40 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel's leaders appear to be moving into dangerous territory by resorting to biological-organic rationales even as they claim their nation is "Western" and thus, by implication, "civilized", even as they open their mouths and make claims which clearly indicate the true basis of their thinking. "Cancerous tumor" characterizations are only the thin edge of the wedge of a line of thinking that inevitably leads to the use of immunological rhetoric about "cleansing" a nation.

The plan appears to ultimately use the IDF to boot out Palestinian-Arabs, wholesale, via the slow pressure of the "Security wall" as well as social and economic disruption.

Is calling Arabs a "cancer" any different from this statement by Adolf Hitler?

quote:
The Jew's life as a parasite in the body of other nations and states explains a characteristic which once caused Schopenhauer, as has already been mentioned, to call him the 'great master in lying.'

It's just as racist, just as disgusting, and just as stupidly idiotic with the most dangerous implications thereof for members of the ethnic population who are being targetted by such statements.

So, Mishei, am I "sick" because I can no longer ignore the clear blurring of lines that are starting to occur? Racist rhetoric often leads to actions that a person later regrets.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 July 2003 09:40 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No. We're not getting into a debate about whether Nazi comparisons are okay. That's how every thread gets derailed. Enough of the "shame" stuff - that only takes the thread off course. Back to the topic, please.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 08 July 2003 09:42 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would hope that this column by a well-known Palestinian sympathizer puts to rest the more blatant of the Nazi comparisons:

http://tinyurl.com/gdjp


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 08 July 2003 09:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No Mycroft, I condemn Ya'alon's rhetoric but anyone here who supports any comparision of an Israeli no matter how racist to the mass murderer, the architect of the annihalation of 6 million Jews is a sick puppy.


Ya'alon's words were stupid, yes racist...but they are words and beliefs. He is not a nazi, he has not engaged in a plan to commit genocide, he has not given approval to establish gas chambers...what the fuck am I doing ??? ...It is you, Jews, non-Jews, anyone here who cannot see that comparing Yaalon to Hitler is (if not a sick attempt at trolling) then just plain sick. You need your collective heads examined.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 08 July 2003 09:45 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
No. We're not getting into a debate about whether Nazi comparisons are okay. That's how every thread gets derailed. Enough of the "shame" stuff - that only takes the thread off course. Back to the topic, please.

No No No, I will not cannot just forget these insidious comparisions. They should be ashamed of themselves..all of you who support such crap.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 08 July 2003 09:49 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Ya'alon's words were stupid, yes racist...but they are words and beliefs. He is not a nazi, he has not engaged in a plan to commit genocide, he has not given approval to establish gas chambers

It's the thin edge of the wedge, Mishei.

It didn't take the KKK long in the South of the US to go from just being a bunch of white guys who talked about "keeping blacks in their place" to going around terrorizing blacks.

Does Israel have to actually be kicking Palestinian-Arabs out by the millions before you will accept that dangerous ideas can reside in the minds of those who are nominally supposed to be governing the Jewish homeland?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 July 2003 09:49 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did they say that the fellow was like Hitler, or did they say that comparing Palestinians to vermin or disease is reminiscent of the way Jews were compared to vermin and disease?

You can draw parallels without claiming that the situations are the same. I would also say that it is not accurate to compare the overall situation to the Holocaust. That was a good article, btw.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 July 2003 09:53 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is silly. People are talking here as though sadism was invented in the C20, and as though only one historical manifestation of it ever mattered, has ever merited or ever merits condemnation.

Horsefeathers.

I have read the literature of European sadism, stretching far back before Freud, back to the C17. It's not all German, either.

We don't need the Nazi metaphors. They are probably the most superficial.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 08 July 2003 09:57 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Did they say that the fellow was like Hitler, or did they say that comparing Palestinians to vermin or disease is reminiscent of the way Jews were compared to vermin and disease?

You can draw parallels without claiming that the situations are the same. I would also say that it is not accurate to compare the overall situation to the Holocaust. That was a good article, btw.


He went much further Michelle. Do not try to rationalize . He said:

quote:
This kind of 'embodiment' of the nation and the need to expunge the diseased 'Other' is vintage European racism of the Gobineau-esque, Hitlerian type.

This is their Chief of Staff. Not some fringe player or deranged settler.


He makes the "Hitlerian"comparision and then points directly at "their chief of staff". Clear as a sick bell!!!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 July 2003 10:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excuse moi, Mishie, but he said only that such metaphors are "vintage European racism," which they are.

Mishei, I think there's one thing you're gonna have to accept. There is a difference between fighting anti-semitism, which every babbler is committed to doing (and the few who appear who aren't get booted very quickly), and the kinds of exceptionalist claims that you make.

I'm never quite sure what it is that you are claiming, actually. I would have thought that anyone whose heart had been rent by the hateful attitudes of the Nazis would recognize those attitudes in every later manifestation precisely because he could draw the links, could see that they must be pre-empted before anyone could ever go that far again.

That's all the rest of us are saying, Mishei. That is all.

Or as Pogo would say: We have met the enemy, and they is us.

(Pogo: Could you correct that? I know I've got it slightly wrong.)

[ 08 July 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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Mishei
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posted 08 July 2003 10:06 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Does Israel have to actually be kicking Palestinian-Arabs out by the millions before you will accept that dangerous ideas can reside in the minds of those who are nominally supposed to be governing the Jewish homeland?


One can engage this discussion without invoking Israel/Hitler comparisions. Those who use this imagery over and over and over again do so for a very specific reason. We all know what it is ...Im one of the few who confronts it while many here either remain silent, some are responsibly critical and many others either rationalize its use or defend the indefenceable.

It is for precisely these reasons that many in the world outside Babble look at some on the left with derision when it comes to their rhetoric on the middle east. Nazis dont go over big with almost everyone it seems and for good reason. Most people understand the inherant evil of the 20th century. False attempts to paint something nazi just turn people off.

Israel and its leaders are not nazis, never will be. israel remains, despite its problems, a democratic state with a free press, independent judiciary...Again shame on those who invoke nazism. Its trolling and its malevolent.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 July 2003 10:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
('scuse me: bricklefritz buttons, which is which, mutter mutter ...)

[ 08 July 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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Michelle
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posted 08 July 2003 10:09 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, okay, we might as well go down this road. Why not? It's an important discussion, obviously.

I can see where you would read it that way. Here's how I read it. First of all, for the most part, Mishei, after a year or more of hearing your point of view on this topic, you have convinced me that the situation in Israel is NOT parallel to the situation in Nazi Germany. So I'm on your side there.

I guess I read it quickly. I thought that what was being said was this: the chief of staff, by calling Palestinians a "cancer" and advocating the elimination of that cancern by calling the IDF the "chemotherapy", was engaging in the same form of racism that Hitler engaged in by calling Jews "vermin" or a "disease" that needs to be eradicated. I saw it as an incident-specific parallel drawn between one person and their one racist action and another person and one of his racist actions. I honestly didn't see it as an attempt to say that Israel is the second Nazi Germany, because if I had thought that, I would have disagreed most strenuously.

I am not out to demonize Israel or to excuse those who do. I just didn't interpret what he wrote the same way you did.

As for his remark about this fellow (forget his name, sorry) being the chief of staff and therefore not some settler who made an isolated remark, well, I felt that was a fair comment. Because when someone central to the power structure starts making remarks like that, it is more worrying than when some fringe lunatic makes them. But at the same time, just because he's central to the power structure does not mean that I think his comment should be attributed to everyone in the government. And I didn't interpret the comment on this thread to be saying that it IS government policy.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 08 July 2003 10:10 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The first step in genocide is to deny a people their humanity and compare them to a disease. This makes killing much more acceptable since you're not killing a human, you're eradicating a virus, a bascillus, a cancer.

This sort of language started to become common in Germany in the 1880s or so and intensified as time went on. Perhaps refering to an ethnic group in virological type language is not in itself Nazi but history has shown us that it's certainly proto-Nazi.

If someone referred to the Jews as "a cancer" what would you compare that analogy to, Mishei? Think seriously about it.

If this is the sort of warning sign or trigger that you ignore then at what point would your alarm bells go off warning you that there are some Israeli extermists in positions of power who are heading down a road to the unthinkable?

[ 08 July 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 July 2003 10:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Those who use this imagery over and over and over again do so for a very specific reason. We all know what it is ...

First of all, I don't think that was "imagery" in Courage's post: I think it was a legitimate intellectual parallel.

Second: Mishei, I don't know what you mean by "what it is." So for once: could you please tell me? What is it that we all know???


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 08 July 2003 10:28 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, let's consider the hate radio broadcast in Rwanda in the period leading up to the genocide of Tutsis. One of the things they did was constantly refer to Tutsis as Inkotanyi which means cockroach. The repition of dehumanising language, particularly comparisons with vermin, cockroaches, disease, things which must be exterminated, is a necessary precursor to genocidal action. The use of such language should set off alarms, not denial. Denial only makes it easier for things to escalate.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 08 July 2003 10:45 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From a column on anti-Semitism:

quote:

Resurrecting an ancient face of evil

THE Holocaust had begun to feel like ancient history, but the urgent new focus on the Middle East reminds us all how virulent anti-Semitism lives as a force in the world.

Just as the Nazis forged a militant fanatical hatred of Jews, Islamic fanatics have forged a modern theory of hatred, illustrated by similar Nazi-like depictions of Jews.

In Peace: The Arabian Caricature: A Study of Anti-Semitic Imagery ,'' Arieh Stav, director of the Ariel Center for Policy Research in Tel Aviv, documents the vicious anti-Semitic cartoons that proliferate in the Arab world with public and official endorsement. Historically, these caricatures are not unique to the Arab world, but what this book makes clear is that in the Middle East today they are commonplace, generating stereotypes of evil, fusing anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism.

In the present crisis, the portrait of the Jew in the Middle East emerges as an ugly and perverse mix of theological, moral, racial, social and political negatives.
(...)
Jews were forced to wear a yellow patch with a six-pointed star in ``sophisticated'' Europe, identifying them as vermin that had to be exterminated. In the Middle East, the Jews of Israel are caricatured as snakes and cockroaches, to be similarly annihilated.

Eastern European Jews were frequently described in metaphors of disease, to be eliminated lest they infect the larger society. Jews in the Middle East are described as a cancer in the body of the Arab world, a malignant tumor that must be surgically removed.


If, as Suzanne Fields rightly points out referring to Jews as a "malignant tumor" is the use of "Nazi like depictions of the Jews" why is it not also true that when Israelis employ such depictions of Arabs these too are "Nazi like"?

And this language is not isolated. If it is not vigrously opposed it escalates:

quote:

Eric , 8/7/2002
Lion or Lamb?
Soon Israel will show itself either the lion of Judah, or the lamb of sacrifice. There can be no peace in Israel as long as there are those within who want to kill you. Only by strong, direct, efficient action can you regain your peace, your land, and your respect. This requires one of two options:
1). Ousting the cancer within your body or,
2). Killing it outright.
Shocking to read it, isn't it.
Yet, mark my words, one of these two will be what happens if you are to survive. There is nothing more your enemy loves than to kill you in your own G-d given land. It mocks your race and your G-d.
If you assume G-d helped you gain your nation, then you should assume he will help you preserve it. What is required is the desire on your own part to do so. If you do not have it, you will lose it.
Fight. Fight to win. And do not believe the lie that states you can have peace for land. You have no peace as long as the non-peaceful live among you. Fight. Roar like a lion, or die like a lamb

[ 08 July 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 08 July 2003 10:54 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hitler and the Nazi's were not always symbols of pure evil . . . they had to start somewhere!!

Ya'alon may not be a Hitler, and Israel may not be another Nazi Germany, but then again neither were Hitler and Germany at one point.

Why bother even remembering Hitler and Nazi Germany if we are not allowed to learn any lessons from that part of history??

[ 08 July 2003: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 08 July 2003 10:56 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
opps, double post

[ 08 July 2003: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 08 July 2003 10:56 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fight and rail against injustice in israel. It need not be done with nazi imgery. Dont stretch looking for how to compare nazim to israel...instead engage in debate...jus stop the nazi shit..it is malevolent and has no basis for comparision. Israel as Rwanda...give me a break..you know it is stupid beyond words..Israel is a deocracy in a sea of totataltarian dictatorships. Grow up!!
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 08 July 2003 10:58 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't believe this. The true colors of Sharon are shown. The true colors of his chief of staff are shown. They are racists. Israel is led by racists. Israel is a racist state. And what concerns Mishei is an apt reference to European racism?

People, Mishie is pulling an old trick out of his hat. He is debating the red herring and we are falling for it. Not this time, please. The issue is the truth and the future of the entire middle east.

In Israel they always say it is important for Palestinians to stop preaching hate while Israel practices it. The Palestinians have been stripped of all but thier hate. When does Israel stop practising hate? When do Israelis say "enough" to Sharon and his goons? When does Israel's benefactor demand regime change?

These are the pertinent questions. Comparing to people to a cancer to be eradicated is a form of racism we are all too familiar with. We don't need to debate that. Don't be sidetracked.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 08 July 2003 11:05 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I repeat my question, if it had been Arafat or the leader of Hamas comparing Jews to a cancer, what would you say, what would you compare it to? I cited an example above where one writer stated that Arabs using such language is the use of "Nazi imagery" so why is it not Nazi imagery when its used to depict Palestinians?
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 08 July 2003 11:13 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
People, Mishie is pulling an old trick out of his hat. He is debating the red herring and we are falling for it.
You guys are a piece of work. I admit without hesitation that Yaalon's words were racist but it is YOU who cannot let go of the nazi imagery. You know my position on it and you know I will react to it. That is how I feel. It is no trick believe me or not I couldnt give a shit. But as long as you keep with this sick and malevolent comparision I will fight it.

As for your view of All Israelis Wingnut, Sharon is their elected PM as was Barak before him and Peres before him and Rabin and Netanyahu etc..its called a democracy. People respond to events..Israel and The Middle east are engaged in a struggle that hopefully will lead to peace. Sharon and Abbas are trying it seems to me but you and many many others here will not (do not want to) see it because it does not fit into your neat and one-sided view of what should happen.

So continue to whine away here . I for one will continue to watch and hope for peace. Small steps are happeneing and there are good people on both sides that are trying to change the course of history. Thank God neither you or Courage or some others here are not in either camp..it would lead to desolation and a continuance of the status quo.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 08 July 2003 11:15 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel is a deocracy in a sea of totataltarian dictatorships.

You're right, democracies never become dictatorships and the fact that a large minority of Israelis would like to see democracy replaced by theocracy isn' t anything to be concerned about. Spain was a democracy before Franco, Italy was one prior to Mussolini as was Poland before Pildulski, Chile before Pinochet, and Romania before Antonescu. Israel is completely immune to the "strong man" syndrome where a demogogue offers an alternative to democracy as a way of solving the nation's problems. There are absolutely no tendencies within Israeli society that could possibly support such a development so we have nothing to worry about, particularly when demoagues start referring to minorities in terms of diseases.

[ 08 July 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 08 July 2003 11:21 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It didn't take the KKK long in the South of the US to go from just being a bunch of white guys who talked about "keeping blacks in their place" to going around terrorizing blacks.

< off-topic pendantry >

But Doc, the KKK began as a bunch of guys who went around terrorizing blacks. That was their origin and rationale, ca. 1865. Just talking about "keeping blacks in their place" was much more civilized by comparison.

< /off-topic pendantry >


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 08 July 2003 11:25 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And don't forget, the US is a democracy.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 July 2003 11:26 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There seems to be a predeliction among IDF Chiefs of Staff to use language that dehumanizes the Palestinians. Former Chief of Staff Raphael Eitan once said they were like “drugged cockroaches.” He didn't mention in public anything about who their exterminator might be.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 08 July 2003 11:29 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, is Suzanne Fields wrong to say that comparisons of Jews with cancer and disease are "Nazi imagery"?
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 08 July 2003 11:34 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, yes, Mishei, attack me. I have never made any di8sparaging remarks about ALL Israelis but it is your style to attempt to slur and malign. I am used to that and I don't give a shit. But you Mishei, you pretend to care about human rights and be agianst racism. You would prevent antisemites from speaking out. You will march and protest and tell us here what we should think. You will infer that the left is full of antisemites fro criticizing Israeli policy. You will demand those you declare to be antisemites be silenced and removed from this board. But when racists are Jews running the government of Israel, you are willing to sit and watch and see how things turn out. Hypocrite.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 08 July 2003 11:38 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To hell with it.

Mishei, for over a decade I have refrained from calling a spade a spade as regards the Israeli situation precisely because people don't want to see the similarities and the horrible irony extant in the fact that Israeli soldiers are mistreating Palestinian-Arabs.

Why would a people, once mistreated and oppressed, become in their turn, mistreaters and oppressors?

And don't tell me the Arabs made them do it. Israel has easily proven that its armed forces can't be pushed around by Arabs.

And is not the hallmark of a "Western" country its ability to be "civilized", ie. not sending its soldiers around like thugs in a banana republic thumping anybody who gets in the way?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 09 July 2003 12:02 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Ah, yes, Mishei, attack me. I have never made any di8sparaging remarks about ALL Israelis but it is your style to attempt to slur and malign. I am used to that and I don't give a shit. But you Mishei, you pretend to care about human rights and be agianst racism. You would prevent antisemites from speaking out. You will march and protest and tell us here what we should think. You will infer that the left is full of antisemites fro criticizing Israeli policy. You will demand those you declare to be antisemites be silenced and removed from this board. But when racists are Jews running the government of Israel, you are willing to sit and watch and see how things turn out. Hypocrite.
No sir.You are the hypocrite. You lie and misrepresent me. However I am use to that . But dont for a moment think you are not a hypocrite.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 09 July 2003 12:03 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
To hell with it.

And is not the hallmark of a "Western" country its ability to be "civilized", ie. not sending its soldiers around like thugs in a banana republic thumping anybody who gets in the way?


Ah yes the banana fetish once again raising its ugly head. And I thought you had that treated.

[ 09 July 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 09 July 2003 12:26 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you don't want me to compare Israel to a Third World country then maybe Israel's soldiers should stop acting like they're in one.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 July 2003 12:33 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No sir.You are the hypocrite. You lie and misrepresent me. However I am use to that . But dont for a moment think you are not a hypocrite.

I'm afraid ol' Mish has got ya there, Doc.

He is rubber, you are glue...


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 09 July 2003 12:39 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Er, that was Wingnut he said that to
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 July 2003 12:41 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So I'm the monkey in the middle?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 09 July 2003 12:43 AM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know what happens in these Middle East threads?
We, across the sea have taken sides and we have started a verbal war. We don't even live there!!!
If we feel strongly about this, imagine them?
Peace doesn't strike me as being around the corner.

From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 09 July 2003 12:48 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, is Suzanne Fields wrong to say that comparisons of Jews with cancer and disease are "Nazi imagery"?

If it had been Arafat or the leader of Hamas comparing Jews to a cancer, what would you say, what would you compare it to? If Arabs using such language is the use of "Nazi imagery" so why is it not Nazi imagery when its used to depict Palestinians?

[ 09 July 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 09 July 2003 08:21 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft:
Mishei, is Suzanne Fields wrong to say that comparisons of Jews with cancer and disease are "Nazi imagery"?

If it had been Arafat or the leader of Hamas comparing Jews to a cancer, what would you say, what would you compare it to? If Arabs using such language is the use of "Nazi imagery" so why is it not Nazi imagery when its used to depict Palestinians?

[ 09 July 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


IMHO, nazism was the ultimate evil of modern history. No other nation or state has come close to the state sponsored, methodical, and government regulated attempt to firstly BY LAW disavow a people, strip them of all their humanity, begin murdering them in mass by mobile killing units, and then establishing actual camps whose soul and expressed purpose was to wipe one certain people off the face of this earth.

Now this is not to say that there isn evil in the world today, of course there is. It is not to say that there isn't racism and bigotry and leaders who, at times act on their bigotry. Sadly that remains...in many places. But to suggest that it is in some way the same as nazism creates an image of nazi horror and it is just not so.

So Mycroft, while the situation described by Fields is viscious and racist I do not believe it was appropriate for her to invoke the spectre of nazism. There are many ways to describe evil without invoking Dante's 9th circle of hell every time you do.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 09 July 2003 09:57 AM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
Well, I'm not sure how some of the more recent posts relate to the actual thread topic, but I'd just like to say that the original article does a very good job of showing that Sharon is and has been for many years, just as extreme or even more so than the Palestinian militant groups we hear about daily.

I found it enlightening and more than a little disturbing.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 09 July 2003 10:27 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No sir.You are the hypocrite. You lie and misrepresent me. However I am use to that . But dont for a moment think you are not a hypocrite.

You are confusing me with yourself, sir. I have only ever sought one thing from you Mishei. Just one. It has always been that you be consistent in your denunciation of racists of all stripes. I can only wish that you would be as strong, passionate and angry towards Daniel Pipes, Sharon, Nethanyahu and the racists who form the government of Israel as you are against the likes of Zundel and Droeder. How I wish you found all racists as distasteful and they all made your blood boil to the same degree. But where you will rise and throw thunder towards antisemites, with Israeli racists you are condining and willing to wait and see. And only after you have first attempted to divert the discussion with the pursuit if a red herring. That is hypocrisy.

Show me the Mishei who would deport Zundel when it is the Sharon government describing a people as a cancer.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 09 July 2003 10:40 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have been more than consistant with racism and the use of nazi imagery. But you and others will stoop to any length to deligitamize the views of anyone like me who supports the Jewish state.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 09 July 2003 10:42 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, what whining bullshit. You attack the imagery not the racism. You clearly consider the imagery more terrible than the racist policies that ensure continued violence and the subjugation of an entire people.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 09 July 2003 10:47 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Oh, what whining bullshit. You attack the imagery not the racism. You clearly consider the imagery more terrible than the racist policies that ensure continued violence and the subjugation of an entire people.
No not at all. But imagery and words are important as you and many others have pointed out.

So if everything is "nazi-like" then IMHO evil becomes much easier to perpetrate. You however seem to refuse to see or understand this basic axiom.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 09 July 2003 11:08 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I glad to see evenflow tried to get the thread back on to topic. It seems that certain people would rather engage in a tiff over Nazi comparisons than debate the subject of the thread.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 09 July 2003 11:11 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's probably because there's nothing to really debate. Ariel Sharon has no intention of seriously dealing with settlement expansion, nor of halting construction on the apartheid wall. Who will argue that he wants a just peace for both Israelies and Palestinians?
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 09 July 2003 11:20 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I can think of a couple of people here who would. Diverting the discussion to Nazi comparisons deprives the rest of us of the benefit of their argument.

[ 09 July 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 July 2003 11:23 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then why don't we do just that - discuss the topic at hand. I'm tired of the bickering too.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 July 2003 11:37 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is the last post I will make that might come under the heading of what you are calling bickering, but I feel I must say it one more time (since it was ignored the first time).

The word "imagery" is being used very sloppily and manipulatively here.

We have all read and heard people who use the Nazi/facist comparisons sloppily and cheaply. When Mishei says:

quote:
imagery and words are important as you and many others have pointed out.

So if everything is "nazi-like" then IMHO evil becomes much easier to perpetrate. You however seem to refuse to see or understand this basic axiom.


he is quite right: anyone who says that "everything" is "nazi-like" might loosely be said to be dealing in cheapened imagery, and deserves to be admonished for sloppy rhetoric and thought (or maybe even worse).

However: To declare certain kinds of careful rhetorical or philosophical analysis to be taboo is dangerous and unwarranted, I believe. It would be one thing if we could simply agree to disagree on the philosophical or cultural underpinnings of certain kinds of speech or thought, but it is clear that we cannot, that some claim an essential privilege or exception that others cannot accept.

Sorry, but I am duty-bound to take taboos apart. There I stand; I can do no other.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 July 2003 11:43 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
[QB]IMHO, nazism was the ultimate evil of modern history. No other nation or state has come close to the state sponsored, methodical, and government regulated attempt to firstly BY LAW disavow a people, strip them of all their humanity,

Uh, you mean, to convince them in the deepest recesses of their consciousnesses that they are a defeated people? You mean stripping them of their humanity by comparing them to a bacteria which had infected the national body an needed to be expunged.

Of course, the differene is OBVIOUS....

quote:
So Mycroft, while the situation described by Fields is viscious and racist I do not believe it was appropriate for her to invoke the spectre of nazism. There are many ways to describe evil without invoking Dante's 9th circle of hell every time you do.

However, Mishei, we would be remiss NOT to describe things that are similar in similar ways. The catagory of comparison was, specifically, the use of organic metaphors to designate the nation as body, and the 'Other' as disease. It is a very specific comparison, and a very specific - historically speaking - form of thought which grew out of 19th Century science (no one knew what bacteria were before.) The comparison is not reckless, it is in fact quite narrow and based on an easily sustainable theory as pointed out by several in this discussion. It was not based on the building of gas chambers, it was not based on the conditions in the Warsaw Ghetto, which we can all admit were atrocious things. It was, however, based on a very distinct kind of thinking that can be traced and followed back to a particular period in European history just preceding the turn of the 19/20th centuries.

I note you did't take offense to me comparing Ya'alon's comments to Gobineu (probably because you are ignorant of his existence). The comparison is no less flattering.

I guess in short, the problem is simple: you can't tell the difference between ideas and actions. I wasn't comparing actions, I was comparing ideas. Now go look those up in the dictionary. Run along now....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 09 July 2003 11:46 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The article doesn't surprise me. This has been consistent views of Sharon throughout his military and political career. This must be stopped! This is the man that president Bush called "A man Of Peace". With that kind of endorsment for the evil Sharon, from the referee of world peace, the "roadmap" is doomed. It also paves the way for more oppression, expansion and cleansing.
From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 09 July 2003 11:55 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I guess in short, the problem is simple: you can't tell the difference between ideas and actions. I wasn't comparing actions, I was comparing ideas. Now go look those up in the dictionary. Run along now....


It never surprises me that you stoop to this form of belligerance and patronization. It does your argument little good but more so it paints you as the ass hole you are.

[ 09 July 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 09 July 2003 12:05 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei was is assholish is editing out your "FUCK OFF" comment. It was way out of line and I will still being send a comment about it and the dishonesty in removing it as you knew it was too much and would garner you a time out.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 July 2003 12:06 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
It never surprises me that you stoop to this form of belligerance and patronization. It does your argument little good but more so it paints you as the ass hole you are.

[ 09 July 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


I've been called 'asshole' by far better. Look, you just got done calling me sick and intimating that I might be antisemitic over the course of quite a few posts - without ever actually taking up the specific content of what I said. If that isn't a smear job, I don't know what is, Mishei me ol' foil. I have just called you on the premise of your argument (the mixing up of action and idea), and if you don't like the style it was done in: tough sh*t. (pardon my French Dr. Conway).

If you want a back-alley fight, you'll get one. If you want to argue concisely, cogently and on the matter at hand, that's good too. As usual, I'll beat you at both...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 July 2003 12:07 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
May I direct people's attention to this thread?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 July 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And it would be nice if this fight was either taken to private mail or stopped immediately. Enough name-calling, enough hostility.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 09 July 2003 12:33 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
Mishei was is assholish is editing out your "FUCK OFF" comment. It was way out of line and I will still being send a comment about it and the dishonesty in removing it as you knew it was too much and would garner you a time out.

There you go again making assumptions. How do you know that I simply didnt just think it over and decide it was to extreme? No you have to think the worst while refusing to give credit that people can think things over.

That said, Courage's admonition was ugly, patronizing and deserved to be rebuked. Clearly you couldnt care less.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 July 2003 12:40 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah Mishei, babble's li'l bulldozer.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 July 2003 12:41 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm closing this. Obviously it's not getting back on topic any time soon.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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