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Author Topic: Why the road map isn't doomed
Mishei
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posted 02 July 2003 11:02 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It seems as though both the PA and Israel are working honestly towards creating a peace. I prefer to see the glass as half full as opposed to half empty.

Israelis to pull out of Bethlehem


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 02 July 2003 11:32 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hope you are right, Mishei, but there are still issues to be considered:

The fence, for one

In a more abstract vein, the difference in power still remains the same

quote:
As for the Palestinian cause, with all its historical, political and religious complications, it is now confronting a ‘third wave’ of attempts to reach an agreement. The first was at the end of the 1970s; it was linked to the October War and finally led to the Egyptian-Israeli treaty, while the Palestinian track remained in suspense.

The second came at the beginning of the 1990s; it was linked to the second Gulf war and took shape in the Madrid conference of 1991, the Oslo accord and the Jordanian-Israeli treaty. In its turn it collided with the problems of a final settlement and brought the Palestinian situation back to what it was before Oslo and the Jordanian-Israeli treaty. In regard to the present stage, that of the ‘road map’, there is no reason to think that it has any chance of ending the infernal cycle.
What distinguishes the three waves is the unbalance of forces in Israel’s favor. To the point where an Arab diplomat summed up the distinctive signs by saying: “The weakness of the solution lies in the strength of Israel”. He added that the most dangerous aspect was the fact that aggression achieved victories and harvested recompenses, while injustice must be condemned and punished.

Some believe that President Bush has decided to push the ‘map’ after his ‘achievement’ in Iraq. He will use these two issues in order to convince American voters of his capacity to manage crises. But the Jewish lobbies are ready to act if they perceive that Israel’s interests and security are threatened. And as Thomas Friedman has said, he must take this fact into consideration. He has before him three months before the ‘election coma’ sets in. This being the case, he is stepping up his initiatives through the ‘waltz’ of emissaries, without hiding his disquiet about the difficulties of his Iraqi adventure following the emergence of an organized resistance which intends to fight a war of attrition with US forces. He has before him only two courses: either the failure of the ‘map’ in Palestine and Iraq if he adopts traditional and sterile policies; or success by virtue of new and decisive formulas such as the deployment of forces in Palestine and the internationalization of the conflict. His envoy, John Wolf, has achieved nothing so far apart from a course of training Palestinian security forces at a barracks in Jericho. He must however confront the forces of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the radical wing of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade, which would signify limiting the conflict to the security track at the expense of historic rights on which there can be no compromise.


But, for all of that, I hope that the Road Map succeeds. Now that Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a ceasefire, I am more convinced that it is a good start. It does not really address the right of return issue, nor does it significantly address the continued expansion of settlements. Only Sharon (or a successor) can truly address those issues, and I will await the next few months to see if Sharon does something to curb settlement expansion. Dismantling the settlement outposts is nothing more than political expediency; the real evidence will come if Sharon begins to halt emigration to the settlements proper. The right of return will never be addressed by Sharon, but hopefully future governments will correct past mistakes in this regard.

Once again, the road map is a good start. These initiatives tend to evolve slowly, and take on a will of their own. One can only hope, and watch carefully.

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 July 2003 11:40 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes there are many issues to be considered. All Im saying is that this step is encouraging. To see both Abbas and Sharon smiling at each other was great.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 02 July 2003 02:48 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Yes there are many issues to be considered. All Im saying is that this step is encouraging. To see both Abbas and Sharon smiling at each other was great.

Crocodiles often look like they are smiling.


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Mishei
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posted 02 July 2003 02:58 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Crocodiles often look like they are smiling.



Ah yes the person who goes by the handle
Courage, has not got the courage to be positive and think positively.

No, all one agenda people actually lack the courage necessary to see hope.


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Courage
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posted 02 July 2003 03:08 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Ah yes the person who goes by the handle
Courage, has not got the courage to be positive and think positively.

You apparently have enough courage for misplaced credulity, however...As the timely Max Roach put it, "Deeds Not Words"- followed by chang-a-lang-chang-a-lang - baddap-baboom-ba-boom


quote:
No, all one agenda people actually lack the courage necessary to see hope.


As a wise man once said:

Faith of consciousness is freedom
Faith of feeling is weakness
Faith of body is stupidity.

Love of consciousness evokes the same in response
Love of feeling evokes the opposite
Love of body depends only on type and polarity.

Hope of consciousness is strength
Hope of feeling is slavery
Hope of body is disease.

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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josh
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posted 02 July 2003 03:27 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh please! Give me a break! The "road map" is total bullshit. As long as Sharon and the Likud are in power they will never agree to a viable Palestinian state. The most they will agree to are bantustans. In the meantime the Israeli land grab goes on unabated. The Palestinians are supposed to stop violence but the Israelis not only are not required to end the occupation, they are not even to required to freeze all settlement activity.

As I've said before, the road map is little more than a cul-de-sac, and a fig leaf to cover Sharon's fat ass.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 July 2003 05:04 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
Oh please! Give me a break! The "road map" is total bullshit. As long as Sharon and the Likud are in power they will never agree to a viable Palestinian state. The most they will agree to are bantustans. In the meantime the Israeli land grab goes on unabated. The Palestinians are supposed to stop violence but the Israelis not only are not required to end the occupation, they are not even to required to freeze all settlement activity.

As I've said before, the road map is little more than a cul-de-sac, and a fig leaf to cover Sharon's fat ass.


Another positive voice from Babble heard. I suppose if you were around at the time you never would have believed that Menachim Begin could have made peace with Egypt either.

Thankfully Josh peacemakers will never have to deal with you.


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josh
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posted 02 July 2003 05:18 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Keep living in la-la land, Mishei.

And as you well know, the Sinai was never considered part of the "land of Israel." Therefore, Begin was able to give it back with a minimum of intra-party controversy.

More on the land grab:

http://tinyurl.com/fvgx

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: josh ]


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satana
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posted 02 July 2003 05:41 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
To see both Abbas and Sharon smiling at each other was great.
Yeah. Reminds me of mass-murderer Rabin and that thug Arafat.

From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 03 July 2003 12:52 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My letter to the Canadian Jewish News was just published.

quote:
Inconsistent to deny right of return

I am quite surprised by the argument in your editorial against the Palestinian right of return (“What right of return actually means,” CJN, June 26). You state: “There is no such right under international law; nor was such a right conferred under any of the legal instruments that have accompanied the conflict. Nor is there any precedent for the existence of such a right in any of the displacements of human beings that were the sad outcome of any of the wars of the last two centuries.”

As a youth, I was involved in Zionist organizations where I was told, repeatedly, that we Jews have a right to return to Israel because it was our land 2,000 years ago. This was the argument we made to Turkish and then British authorities during the various aliyot. Indeed, the element of the Basic Law of Israel that gives all Jews the right to move there is called “the Law of Return.” It strikes me as hypocritical that you would, presumably, defend our “right to return” after 2,000 years while at the same time stating that the Palestinians who left 50 years ago have no such right.

Despite wishful thinking, Israel was never a “land without a people for a people without a land,” and until we come to terms with that and either recognize a right to return for Palestinians or the need for compensation in exchange for that right, there will never be peace. To argue that there is no right to return when we ourselves claim such a right is simply intellectually dishonest.



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DrConway
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posted 03 July 2003 01:17 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, but don't you know? The Palestinian-Arabs don't have a 2,000-year-old book of doubtful accuracy to buttress their claim.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 03 July 2003 02:41 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Another positive voice from Babble heard. I suppose if you were around at the time you never would have believed that Menachim Begin could have made peace with Egypt either.

Thankfully Josh peacemakers will never have to deal with you.


Actually, the 'peace' with Egypt is entirely consistent with Israel's policy of politicide against the Palestinians. One of the few things keeping the Palestinians 'in the ring' during the 1970's was international support, specifically from Egypt (and Jordan) who had a lot of money, and strategic influence with the U.S. (a lot of oil has to go through the Suez). Part of the impetus for Begin's 'conversion' was the need to isolate the Palestinians politically, culturally, and economically from as many Arab states as possible. Without the threat Egypt coming to the defense of the Palestinians on Israel's flank, Israel could have her way with the Palestinians.

And F*cked they are...

Moreover, there was a huge bribe on the table from the U.S. to both countries.


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Mycroft_
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posted 03 July 2003 03:47 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Didn't Begin renege on the Camp David articles which dealt with the West Bank and Gaza?
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Mishei
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posted 03 July 2003 08:32 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft:
My letter to the Canadian Jewish News was just published.



I dont understand your need to post the URL then the entire article??

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Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 03 July 2003 10:00 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Settlement expansion continues unabated

quote:
Since Day 1 of the delicate truce that continues to creep into the battered psyches of Israelis and Palestinians, armoured Israeli jeeps have been surreptitiously escorting government surveyors through the rocky Judean hills surrounding theWest Bank villages of Beit Eksa and Beit Souriq. The surveyors have been planting signs and posting notices among the terraced olive and almond groves overlooking the Holy City.

Even three days after the first yellow metal sign was spotted, Palestinian villagers still cannot believe the words now sitting on ground they claim as their own: "State land — Entrance forbidden" reads the bilingual message, in Arabic and Hebrew.

Contrary to the cautious hope found elsewhere, these shocked residents are confronting their worst fears.

They fear that the villages may soon be stripped of their surrounding farmland by encroaching Israeli settlements that may ultimately cut them off from a future Palestinian state. A state, ironically, that seems closer now than ever.

"This is the real road map," said Beit Eksa village councillor Fathi Hababa, waving a faxed notice announcing the Israel government's intention to confiscate nearly 170 hectares of land in the area.


There is reason to doubt the veracity of Sharon's pledge.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 03 July 2003 10:30 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whoever didn't doubt it?
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josh
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posted 03 July 2003 11:03 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can think of at least one person on this board who would.

And he, like so many others in the Israel "right or wrong" camp, as well as the American media, constantly overlook the continuing land grab, and Israel's refusal to stop. The Palestinians are expected to stop all violence, but Israel can continue to take land. There does appear to be a lack of symmetry in that arrangement.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 03 July 2003 11:08 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Which is why teh road map is doomed.
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josh
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posted 03 July 2003 11:15 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Which was the title of my thread.

Another article on the continuing land grab:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,989903,00.html


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Mishei
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posted 03 July 2003 11:29 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree that the issue of land and what belongs to whom must be settled fairly. However, I repeat, please Babblers do not offer your help to those trying to make peace. You just are not in the same ball park.
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Briguy
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posted 03 July 2003 11:42 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wrong metaphor. Most babblers are not on the same page with the Road Map authors. Some of us believe that Israel should be making concessions along with the Palestinians. As noted on many earlier threads, and as evidenced by this latest land grab, the Road Map is extremely one-sided. While I welcome the current ceasefire, I have to wonder if any long-term solutions will come out of the Road Map. Without concessions from the Israeli side (cosmetically removing the offensive settler outposts and temporarily removing checkpoints, only to re-occupy them the next day, are not meaningful concessions), the Road Map is more accurately the One Way Street. Sharon has to show that he actually wants peace by halting this activity.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 03 July 2003 11:52 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If the issue of land was settled fairly the Jewish state would probably shrink to a narrow strip of land from Tel Aviv to Haifa.

quote:
Mishei: However, I repeat, please Babblers do not offer your help to those trying to make peace. You just are not in the same ball park.

From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 03 July 2003 03:26 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks satana..for nothing. Very helpful.

The linked article, IMHO, is why I believe the cup is half full. Hirsh Goodmaqn is known as a left wing journalist in Israel with no real love for Sharon. His analysis here is superb.

Some people wonder if Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will be able to outflank those in the Likud who oppose the idea of even a provisional Palestinian state and who want to bring him down. The answer is an unqualified "yes" and some advice to those who are trying: Sharon is not a desirable enemy. He is smart, cunning, ruthless, charming and totally unspontaneous. Every move, every word, every gesture is pre-planned, always with a clear goal in mind.

Sharon the Unspontaneous


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 July 2003 03:46 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, your attitude towards Sharon reminds me of the old saying that marriage is the triumph of hope over experience. There is nothing in Sharon's history, nor to you every point to any, that supports the conclusion that he is willing to recognize a truly viable Palestinian state, with a capital in Arab East Jerusalem. His idea of a state is a series of bantustans separated by Israeli settlements, roads and checkpoints. Those are his "painful concessions." The concessions may be painful to the Palestinans, but certainly not to Sharon.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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Babbler # 2785

posted 03 July 2003 04:06 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
Mishei, your attitude towards Sharon reminds me of the old saying that marriage is the triumph of hope over experience. There is nothing in Sharon's history, nor to you every point to any, that supports the conclusion that he is willing to recognize a truly viable Palestinian state, with a capital in Arab East Jerusalem. His idea of a state is a series of bantustans separated by Israeli settlements, roads and checkpoints. Those are his "painful concessions." The concessions may be painful to the Palestinans, but certainly not to Sharon.

So only your opinion menas anything and Hirsh Goodman who has pilloried Sharon in the past, lives in Israel and is a leftist political commentator in Israel is wrong? Ok... I suppose ..

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 03 July 2003 04:17 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the article you cite: "Sharon will not do a final deal with the Palestinians, only an interim one." I think that supports my position. And the article deals primarily with intra-party strategy, not the substance of any deal.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged

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