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Author Topic: Targeted killings
clockwork
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posted 30 June 2003 10:21 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
JERUSALEM -- Nazih Abu Sibaa, 35, died seconds after he opened the trunk of his booby-trapped car. Abdel Rahman Hamad, 33, was shot dead by a sniper as he sat on his roof reading the Koran. Mohammad Abayat, 27, was killed when he picked up the receiver of a pay phone that blew up outside a hospital where he was visiting his sick mother.

Israel's Lethal Weapon of Choice

From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
redshift
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posted 05 July 2003 01:41 PM      Profile for redshift     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
the next chapter is coming soon. and the yanks will elect the terminator.
i saw one of these remote control weapon platforms demonstrated on CNN before the invasion , only once. I think they tested badly for public support, then.
http://library.ncsu.edu/marion/AJV-4366

From: cranbrook,bc | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 05 July 2003 01:45 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by clockwork:

Israel's Lethal Weapon of Choice


Murder and terrorism by any other name...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 July 2003 02:14 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
...and it's been going on for decades.

quote:
Kanafani was assassinated on July 8, 1972, by a car bomb planted by Israeli agents. Kanafani was posthumously awarded the Lotus Prize for Literature by the Conference of Afro-Asian Writers.

LitWeb

quote:
Kanafani's first novel, Men in the Sun, appeared in 1963. The book was adapted by the Egyptian director Tawfiq Salin into a film, called al-Makhduun. Men in the Sun is the story of three Palestinians representing three different generations who attempt to escape to Kuwait in the tank of a water truck. In the gloomy ending, the refugees perish in their journey across the desert, a reference to the end of the Palestinian people. While they are dying under the heat of the sun, they knock continuously on the wall of the tank, crying, "We are here, we are dying, let us out, let us free."

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stormbringer
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posted 07 July 2003 11:25 AM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Naturally it would be far far better if Israel were to conduct random bombings of pizza shops and buses in Palestinian areas....


To actually try and take out one target is just too much effort.


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 07 July 2003 11:30 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stormbringer:
Naturally it would be far far better if Israel were to conduct random bombings of pizza shops and buses in Palestinian areas....


To actually try and take out one target is just too much effort.


Yeah, cos' you know, two wrongs make a right...

Feh.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stormbringer
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posted 07 July 2003 11:46 AM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes random attacks ARE WRONG...


That is why the IDF take considerable effort to reduce the number of "innocent" bystanders effected by their attacks on the terrorist ringleaders.


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 July 2003 11:53 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Really. So you believe there are fewer innocent Palestinians killed than Israelis? Is that what you believe?

So, then you would have no problem with Palestinians detonating themselves on busses or in restaurants if they had a specific target? Is that it?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stormbringer
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posted 07 July 2003 12:14 PM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That depends if you are separating the "targeted" killings with those that occur because of general street clashes.

In the street fights the PLO types are at a disadvantage because they CHOOSE to try to take on a Merkeva Mk V with rocks.


Would it be fine it the IDF started to carpet bomb terrorist areas after the homicide bombers have struck?


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 July 2003 12:22 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What the hell are you talking about? Do you even read the news? Palestinians fight tanks with stones and are asnwered with real rounds.

Missiles are fired into busy streets with complete disregard for whoever else happens to be on that street.

It kills me that the right winger all afraid of a democratic government keeping track of his guns will turn and support a government that practices racism, imprisons an entire population based on race, and carries out extrajudicial killings without benefit of even an official accusation. The word of beaten "detainees" is good enough.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 07 July 2003 12:24 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stormbringer:
That depends if you are separating the "targeted" killings with those that occur because of general street clashes.

In the street fights the PLO types are at a disadvantage because they CHOOSE to try to take on a Merkeva Mk V with rocks.

Would it be fine it the IDF started to carpet bomb terrorist areas after the homicide bombers have struck?



If you were Palestinian, how would you take on a tank?

Let's be truthful in your statement:

"Would it be fine if the IDF terrorists started to carpet bomb Palestinian terrorist areas after the bombers have struck?"


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stormbringer
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posted 07 July 2003 12:36 PM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lets see....

The palestinians seem to have plenty of high order explosives for use in Homicide bombers vests.


They have RPGs by the truck load...

HOWEVER..

They still CHOOSE to send youngsters out with rocks to attack tanks. It is obvious that they are playing to the western press to prey upon the minds of those who might sympathize with their plight...

From the looks of this place they seem to be having some success...


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stormbringer
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posted 07 July 2003 12:37 PM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh BTW the IDF does not fit the definition of terrorist....look it up you will see a picture of Arafat.

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: Stormbringer ]


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 07 July 2003 12:42 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The palestinians seem to have plenty of high order explosives for use in Homicide bombers vests.
Firt of all, you cannot call them homocide bombers without calling the IDF homicide killers too !!! I don't agree with the Palestinian high tech bomb delivery system, because it costs one Palestinian life everytime they strap one on. The Israeli ancient barbaric low tech system is more effective using laser guided missles to deliver the bombs, and there is no IDF life wasted.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 07 July 2003 12:43 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh BTW the IDF does not fit the definition of terrorist....look it up you will see a picture of Arafat.
The IDF was founded on terrorism.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 07 July 2003 12:44 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sure those upstarts at the Boston Harbour were "terrorists" to the British.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 07 July 2003 12:55 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But in fairness, they didn't blow up British men, women and children; they threw tea in the water.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 07 July 2003 01:00 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The point I am making is that the word "terrorist" gets used by people opposed to point of view of the participants -- just like the word "traitor" is. Michael Collins was a "traitor" to the British, but a "patriot" to Irish republicans.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 07 July 2003 01:02 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stormbringer:
Yes random attacks ARE WRONG...


That is why the IDF take considerable effort to reduce the number of "innocent" bystanders effected by their attacks on the terrorist ringleaders.


Must be tough to be one of the 'irreducible remainder', huh...

I don't buy this 'considerable effort' B.S.. Look, if I toss a grenade into the front room of a house with the intention of killing someone in that room, and the resulting fire spreads to the whole house and kills 4 more people who I didn't know were there (of course this is not the case with targetted killings, they do some math and decide how many casualties are 'managable' i.e. spin-able) I am still responsible for killing those 4 other people, regardless of what we might think of the first guy.

In domestic law we have something called 'negligence causing death', and many states in the U.S. have gone further to add something called 'felony homicide', which means that if I go into rob you, and end up killing you and your wife, it is no unforseeable accident, it is murder.

So take your 'considerable efforts' to spin IDF terrorism somewhere where people are stupid enough to by it..

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Blind_Patriot
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posted 07 July 2003 01:05 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
But in fairness, they didn't blow up British men, women and children; they threw tea in the water.

Yes... Fairness !!

Israel has thousands of tanks, gun ships, fighter jets and have now aquired subs. Oh ya we cannot forget there WMD arsenal also, which includes nukes.

Just to let you know since we're talking about fairness.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 07 July 2003 01:15 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stormbringer:
Oh BTW the IDF does not fit the definition of terrorist....look it up you will see a picture of Arafat.

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: Stormbringer ]


Whose definition? Personally, I'm not about to let politically motivated agents (the State Department, the IDF, and others) decide how to define terrorism on my behalf. Language in the service of power is propaganda.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 07 July 2003 02:14 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just to let you know since we're talking about fairness.

But "all's fair in love and war", right? I mean, it's not like opposing countries give each other a few battleships and troops so that everyone starts with the same arsenal.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stormbringer
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posted 07 July 2003 02:21 PM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The IDF does NOT just go out and fire a hellfire missle at just ANY old palestinian....

They directly target those vehicles that contain leaders of the Palestinian Forces....

They only do that in direct response to Homicide bomber attacks on civilians.

THEY ARE THE GOOD GUYS!!

If the Palestinians stopped the attacks and actually accepted the peace proposals....the IDF would not have to conduct any more tarteted killings.

As it is they continue to try and take the head off the vipers and I fully support them in this worthwhile effort.


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 July 2003 02:36 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The IDF does NOT just go out and fire a hellfire missle at just ANY old palestinian....


No, they fire missiles into crowded streets.
quote:

They directly target those vehicles that contain leaders of the Palestinian Forces....


Wrong. In the most recent "targeted killing" which is a euphimism for murder. something you are missing here, they missed the "target" and murdered several innocent people including an 8 year-old girl.
quote:

They only do that in direct response to Homicide bomber attacks on civilians.


Bullshit. In the attack against a spokesman, that is a person who speaks and does not carry out any military acts, they admitted the attack was planned and not in retaliation for anything else.
quote:

THEY ARE THE GOOD GUYS!!


I am sure you believed white South Africans and slave owners were the good guys.

quote:

If the Palestinians stopped the attacks and actually accepted the peace proposals....the IDF would not have to conduct any more tarteted killings.


Again you are wrong. The Israelis have stolen Palestinian land and continue to steal it. Why are settlements expanding? They are stealing land and water. It is clear all your high minded talks about property rights is either sheer hypocrisy or only applies to nice, white people.
quote:

As it is they continue to try and take the head off the vipers and I fully support them in this worthwhile effort.

Uh, I see. Vipers. Not humans fighting for freedomn and dignity. I see now it is the white thing that has you.

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 07 July 2003 02:47 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
it's not like opposing countries give each other a few battleships and troops so that everyone starts with the same arsenal.
So where does the U.S. military and financial support for Israel fit in?

BTW Stormbringer I support the PA resistance to military occupation and settlement expansionism. For the record... Israel was founded on terrorism. Building settlements is terrorism in a very unique way. Your thirst for for the increase in the plight of the unworthy palesinians is shown in your support for the IDF.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 07 July 2003 02:48 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They still CHOOSE to send youngsters out with rocks to attack tanks. It is obvious that they are playing to the western press to prey upon the minds of those who might sympathize with their plight...

Yes, that's exatcly it. Not only do they deliberately send their children out to get machine-gunned, they also have been known to rent apartments in the same buildings as terrorist leaders. Some Palestinians even share the streets with these vipers during rush hour, just to get in the way of the IDF's totally accurate, well-planned and safe-for-everyone-but-the-target extra-judicial assasinations. But hang on! It gets worse! Thousands of Palestinians have been languishing in sub-poverty level conditions in so-called "refugee" camps for two generations just to make Israel look bad! I sthere no end to their duplicity?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 07 July 2003 03:01 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So where does the U.S. military and financial support for Israel fit in?

Well, again, "all's fair in love and war"...


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 July 2003 03:06 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you really believe "all is fair" magoo?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 July 2003 03:14 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
THEY ARE THE GOOD GUYS!!

Thank you, stormbringer, for your candour, and for finally addressing the ideology behind support for the Israeli military occupation of someone else's country.

Israelis are the white hats. Arabs are the black hats. In this Hollywood-grounded mirage, Israel will win just victory and Arabs will die deserved deaths. These are their acknowledged roles in this scenario. Just as the Rin-tin-tin Bluecoats can easily kill the savages whose land they were stealing, so does the IOF kill the subhuman Arab.

Imagine the thrill experienced by the nice boy from Brooklyn, with no frontier of his own, who is able to fulfill his gunslinger fantasies in the gulches and draws of the West (Bank). Get them wagons in a circle, build an Iron Wall.

The only good Injun is a dead Palestinian.

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 07 July 2003 03:17 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe that "fair" and "war" don't belong in the same sentence, and that to talk as though Israel "isn't being fair" is kind of silly.

Please note, however, that I'm not suggesting that torture, rape, intentional killing of civilians, bombing hospitals, etc., is "ok", just that one side in a conflict having more troops, more guns, more money, or all of the above, doesn't constitute a "mis-war" and entitle the underdog to a do-over.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 July 2003 03:31 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree.
I find it incredibly stupid when arguments focus not on the results of the weapons used but on the weapons themselves.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 07 July 2003 03:33 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ends and means.
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Stormbringer
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posted 07 July 2003 03:51 PM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingnut...that is because weapons do not kill....


The actions of PEOPLE KILL!!


Hmmm

an 8 year old girl was killed when an IDF rocket MISSED!

Do you get it??

They did not directly target the girl in question.

Now....if we could please get the leaders of Hamas to put on nice red jackets and stand out in the middle of a field I am certain that there would be no further accidental killings...


Blackdog....in a nutshell YES. If the Palestinans and their supporters put any effort into aiding their plight as they did to try and kill all the jews....things would be better.


Wingnut......playing the race card so early are we? A sure sign of a loosing debate.

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: Stormbringer ]


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 July 2003 03:58 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are an idiot.
So, then, the suicide-bomber didn't kill all those bus passengers because he didn't directly target any of them. Holy shit! Where do you people come from? What sort of warped twisting and turning does it take for that sort of cold-blooded rationalization?

And yes, the race card. It seems to me if you choose to dehumanize a people who you don't know and for whose suffering you so easily overlook in favour of those who inflict suffering, and in particular a racist state, then, yes, I think the word "racist" fits.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 07 July 2003 03:58 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please note, however, that I'm not suggesting that torture, rape, intentional killing of civilians, bombing hospitals, etc., is "ok", just that one side in a conflict having more troops, more guns, more money, or all of the above, doesn't constitute a "mis-war" and entitle the underdog to a do-over.
I somewhat agree, however it can be considered a mis-war since the U.S. invlovment is clearly one sided support for Israel, when for very minimal reasons, they walk into Iraq against the world communities interest. The world community asks the U.S. to do more about Israels atrocities and the Americans respond by increasing the amount of aid to Israel. Somewhat unfair? Well, when the self declared referee is in bed with the coach, many things will happen.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 07 July 2003 04:02 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stormbringer:
Wingnut...that is because weapons do not kill....


The actions of PEOPLE KILL!!

an 8 year old girl was killed when an IDF rocket MISSED!

Do you get it??

They did not directly target the girl in question.


I'm sure that makes ALL the difference to her family. I'm sure they realise that she was just an unfortunate victim of good intentions.....

Look, if I take a swing at you and miss and hit your girlfriend, am I responsible for her bloody nose?...


quote:
Blackdog....in a nutshell YES. If the Palestinans and their supporters put any effort into aiding their plight as they did to try and kill all the jews....things would be better.

Quite the opposite, my friend. If the millions of Palestinians in the West Bank were all to be working diligently to kill as many Israelis as possible, this thing would be much, much, worse than it is...


quote:
Wingnut......playing the race card so early are we? A sure sign of a loosing debate.

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: Stormbringer ]


Actually, I would say that a diversion like yours is a better sign...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stormbringer
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posted 07 July 2003 05:17 PM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingnut.....how exactly is Israel Racist?

Trying to stay alive when you are surrounded by blood thristy enemies does not qualify.


There are I believe White people who are jewish, black people who are jewish etc.

I do not know of any chinese people who are jewish?

However I do not believe that citizenship is based upon race.

If so please point it out to me....


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 July 2003 05:17 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If the Palestinans and their supporters put any effort into aiding their plight as they did to try and kill all the jews....things would be better.


Wingnut......playing the race card so early are we? A sure sign of a loosing debate.


"The Palestinians" are trying to kill "all the jews"? And you accuse others of playing the race card?


And the timing of your comment,

quote:
To actually try and take out one target is just too much effort.
which followed the post about the murder of Khanafani and his niece is strange.

Does this mean that Israelis are more efficient, in that they target and burn writers rather than books?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 07 July 2003 05:38 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not to side track here Stormbringer, but your embrace all races if your Jewish brings me to this question. Are black Jews also considered semites? Semite is a race association rather than religious. Jewish people like to consider themselves as the only legitimate semites, when most Arabs are in fact semites too.
From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 07 July 2003 05:43 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Trying to stay alive when you are surrounded by blood thristy enemies does not qualify.
Seek help Stormbringer, before your committed to a mental institution for the rest of your worthless life. You can start by turning the channel away from CNN.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stormbringer
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posted 07 July 2003 05:47 PM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh I am not jewish.....

I am a devout athiest...


CNN??

I would love to watch Fox news....alas. Our collective masters in Ottawa have made that illegal in Canada and I cannot stomach CBC>


Is Israel NOT surrounded on all sides by people who have declared their desire to push them into the sea?

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: Stormbringer ]


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 07 July 2003 06:05 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stormbringer:
Oh I am not jewish.....

I am a devout athiest...


CNN??

I would love to watch Fox news....alas. Our collective masters in Ottawa have made that illegal in Canada and I cannot stomach CBC>


Is Israel NOT surrounded on all sides by people who have declared their desire to push them into the sea?

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: Stormbringer ]


Ladies, and gentlemen, we have ourselves a troll.
Please do not feed the troll, I have already wasted at least 5 minutes of time on him today. I wish I could have it back. What a poor investment.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Whazzup?
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posted 07 July 2003 06:08 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
Jewish people like to consider themselves as the only legitimate semites

Source, please.

Are you referring to all Jews? Most Jews? A plurality of Jews?

Or maybe just the Jews you consider to be "some of your best friends."

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: Whazzup? ]


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
4t2
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posted 07 July 2003 06:10 PM      Profile for 4t2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stormbringer:

I would love to watch Fox news....alas. Our collective masters in Ottawa have made that illegal in Canada and I cannot stomach CBC

Oh, quit whinging. You say it like there's been a case of horrid censorship by those evil socialists. No doubt you know damn well that no-one has made Fox News illegal. Instead, the sale or use of U.S. satellite systems is prohibited, which I presume is the illegality to which you refer.

But do you not recognise that this applies to all sorts of broadcasters, news and otherwise? And are you also aware that Fox News can seek carriage on Canadian cable and satellite services, by applying to be entered on the CRTC master list of services, and thus be in the same position as CNN (and other news broadcasters?) Even that the CCTA has recently sought this for Fox News as well as ESPN and Nickelodeon and other channels? You may object to broadcast regulatory policy, and that's cool, but why pretend this has got anything to do with stopping you from watching Fox News in particular?

Or did one of your buddies just tell you that Fox News was illegal, and you're just repeating without thinking?


From: Beyond the familiar... | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 07 July 2003 06:13 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
FOX News: We distort, you decide.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 07 July 2003 06:24 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is Israel NOT surrounded on all sides by people who have declared their desire to push them into the sea?

No. No it's not.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 July 2003 06:43 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thundermug:
quote:
Trying to stay alive when you are surrounded by blood thristy enemies does not qualify.

I say, the savage natives are restless. What do you think, shall we let loose with the Maxim Gun?

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 07 July 2003 07:08 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Thundermug:

I say, the savage natives are restless. What do you think, shall we let loose with the Maxim Gun?

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


Rather. Best give these heathens a good hiding before they get too uppity, wot? Fancy some tea, old top?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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Babbler # 4220

posted 07 July 2003 07:13 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is Israel NOT surrounded on all sides by people who have declared their desire to push them into the sea?

No, that's simplifying the issue too much. But they sure aren't surrounded by regimes who only wish to live in peace and harmony with their Israeli neighbors!

I think Israel's realtions with it's neighbors are neither here nor there, because the Arab regime's problems with Israel have very, very little to do with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. And, even if the surrounding Arab countries want nothing more than to push Israel into the sea, that still would not justify Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stormbringer
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posted 07 July 2003 07:17 PM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by black_dog:

Fancy some tea, old top?



How did you know I liked tea?


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 July 2003 07:26 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Most racists like tea.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
4t2
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posted 07 July 2003 07:39 PM      Profile for 4t2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While I'm waiting for the sadly misguided stormbringer to respond to my point re: Fox News (any time soon, no doubt), I want to clarify a wee point of logic. Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea from WingNut...

Most racists (like) tea
does equal
tea (is liked by) most racists
or in another formation
most racists (equal) tea drinkers
however
most tea drinkers (do not equal) racists !

Dispute me on this, and I'll send the avenging angel of Lady Grey upon your head ;-)


From: Beyond the familiar... | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 July 2003 08:40 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I promise not to dispute you. Although I do have mounted machine gun nests with DU tipped ammo for my personal defence.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 07 July 2003 08:43 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I still have Jerome.

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: clersal ]


From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 07 July 2003 09:24 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The IDF was founded on terrorism.

the IDF was created to stop the terrorism on the Israeli side. It's not easy to control are large army but it is easier then letting a bunch of random groups run lose. The cooperation is much more effective and more responsible then having random groups claimed to be for the sake of security the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and then every attack actually becomes a shot in the foot. If there was one armed group run by the government in Palestine attacking only soldiers then and killing a couple by standers then you can say the bystanders were a mistake and you could justify there tactics but now they have just anarchy which they are much to blame for.

The question is of could or would.

The Israelis could carpet bomb if they wanted. They could take randomly a hundred Palestinians and shoot them in the street in the back of the head to scare the population from further aggression but they don't if the Palestinians had the same fire power there is no reason to believe they wouldn't. Israel's regard for human life may not by way up there but it's a little higher then theirs.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 July 2003 09:42 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
if the Palestinians had the same fire power there is no reason to believe they wouldn't. Israel's regard for human life may not by way up there but it's a little higher then theirs.

First youy just spouted nonsense, Justice. Not it is becoming racist nonsense. Isn't that what the settlers teach their children before sending them out to kill Palestinians only trying to protect their land, water and resources?

I disagree with the Israeli government but few people here have attempted to ascribe to Israeli's the sort of racist characteristics as you would now ascribe to Palestinians such as placing a lower value on life.

Do Jews have a monopoly on suffering? Shame on you. I know he is not here (edited to add, yes, he is here) but I would hope Mishei would distance himself from such statements.

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stormbringer
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posted 07 July 2003 10:00 PM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
I promise not to dispute you. Although I do have mounted machine gun nests with DU tipped ammo for my personal defence.


Du tipped?

Do you mean Democratic Underground?? Or Depleted Uranium...

In which case the rounds are not TIPPED they instead have a DU core penetrator..


With Regard to FOX....Yes I was refering to the CRTCs policy that keeps me from freely deciding WHICH sat sytem I choose to use. I guess its a pirates life for me....


Although I understood that Fox had applied and was denied coverage in Canada......but I cannot back this up.


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
4t2
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posted 07 July 2003 10:07 PM      Profile for 4t2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Neither. He means Darjeeling, Unsweetened.
From: Beyond the familiar... | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stormbringer
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posted 07 July 2003 10:15 PM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Darjeeling??

Now that is against the Geneva Convention..

Terrible stuff.....


Earl Grey and old standby Orange P.


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 07 July 2003 10:28 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whazzup?:

Source, please.

Are you referring to all Jews? Most Jews? A plurality of Jews?

Or maybe just the Jews you consider to be "some of your best friends."



By Eliahu Salpeter (Haaretz)

The term "anti-Semitism" was invented by a German journalist to express his own attitudes and to define the hatred of Jews on a racial basis, as distinct from hostility toward Judaism. The fact that the Arabs are also Semites has created several paradoxes.Hitler was on good terms with Jerusalem's mufti, Haj Amin El-Husseini, one of the Arab world's most rabid anti-Semites. Yet today's Arab anti-Semites disingenuously claim that Arabs can never be anti-Semites, because that would amount to self-hatred. Nonetheless, modern-day Arab anti-Semites have distanced themselves from the anti-Semitic roots in Islam and have adopted the symbols, expressions and messages of Western racist anti-Semitism.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 07 July 2003 10:38 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Israelis could carpet bomb if they wanted. They could take randomly a hundred Palestinians and shoot them in the street in the back of the head to scare the population from further aggression but they don't if the Palestinians had the same fire power there is no reason to believe they wouldn't. Israel's regard for human life may not by way up there but it's a little higher then theirs.

You have absolutely no evidence for this statement. None. It is pure generalized and racist speculation.

If the Palestinians had the same firepower as the Israelis, the entire situation would be different. Early Zionists resorted to much the same tactics as Palestinians now use; they no longer have to do so because, as you pointed out, they have an army and plenty of money to finance it. But we've seen what the hard-core fringe Zionists do when they have weapons, and it's not much different from what the terrorist wing of Hamas does. It's a little late to be playing the "respect for human life" card. More than a little late.

But it's another colonialist supposition ("they're just savages, they'd do worse than we do if we let them"), which we are getting used to from you. You know, I think you and I are on the same page about this issue, basically, so it really, really sucks that you have to keep saying these appalling, unnecessary things about torture and about the Palestinians as a people. It does unbelievable damage to your argument.

[ 07 July 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 07 July 2003 10:43 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course he has no evidence, a racist doesn't need to back up their statements with facts.

quote:
...but they don't if the Palestinians had the same fire power there is no reason to believe they wouldn't. Israel's regard for human life may not by way up there but it's a little higher then theirs.

And this statement is hugely racist and way beyond the pale.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 07 July 2003 11:06 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You have absolutely no evidence for this statement. None. It is pure generalized and racist speculation.
If the Palestinians had the same firepower as the Israelis, the entire situation would be different. Early Zionists resorted to much the same tactics as Palestinians now use; they no longer have to do so because, as you pointed out, they have an army and plenty of money to finance it. But we've seen what the hard-core fringe Zionists do when they have weapons, and it's not much different from what the terrorist wing of Hamas does. It's a little late to be playing the "respect for human life" card. More than a little late.
But it's another colonialist supposition ("they're just savages, they'd do worse than we do if we let them"), which we are getting used to from you. You know, I think you and I are on the same page about this issue, basically, so it really, really sucks that you have to keep saying these appalling, unnecessary things about torture and about the Palestinians as a people. It does unbelievable damage to your argument.

I didn't call anyone a savage. However that’s how most of the post here depicting Israel as careless and disrespectful. 55 year of war should prove my point. There could have been peace long ago but what ever Israel did wasn't enough. Not only the Palestinians but Israel's other neighbors were always looking for a dent in the while it has nothing to do with race it is fact it is these nations that wanted to destroy Israel the terrorist attacks are just another attempt at crippling Israel so it will be easier to take them over. You think that the Palestinians will have better lives when Israel is gone well every body knows that once Israel is gone each of it's neighbors will take a piece and treat the Palestinians even worse. You can't have your cake and it to and when some is offering you a bone trying first to keep you alive it's really smart to bite off his hand is it not it???
My claims are fact that’s how Israeli's were tortured not just by Germans or Russian's but Arabs to. Israel pales in comparison to this but this is exactly what everyone hear has been claiming.

Maybe I'm wrong for my comment but did you stop to think what if your wrong? Do you really think every will be o.k. if we're just nice? I believe in making an effort to be nice but I'm not going to jump off bridge forget it.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stormbringer
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Babbler # 3619

posted 07 July 2003 11:22 PM      Profile for Stormbringer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
Of course he has no evidence, a racist doesn't need to back up their statements with facts.

And this statement is hugely racist and way beyond the pale.


Is your whole debate tactic to put your tail between your legs, close your eyes and spin around in circles hands over ears shouting RACIST RACIST RACIST??

[ 08 July 2003: Message edited by: Stormbringer ]


From: Ont | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 07 July 2003 11:38 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know what they say about calling 'em as you see 'em.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
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posted 08 July 2003 11:06 AM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I don't understand is the obsession with this conflict. There are many more conflicts in the world, some that have killed millions based on race or religion but this is the one that everyone fights about. Now the question is why ?
From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 08 July 2003 11:21 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Because we're all anti-Semites.

This question has been asked a million times, by you and others. We've even had whole threads devoted to the topic. So how about taking your question to one of them and leave this thread to the topic. Or! Why don't you start a new thread with one of those many other conflicts that you want to discuss? Or maybe join one of the other threads that many other babblers have started about other world events and problems that barely ever sees the usual people who ask why we always focus on the Israel question.

Also, it would be nice, everyone else, if we could avoid the flurry of indignant replies to Ray's question in THIS thread so that he doesn't succeed in derailing ir.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
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posted 08 July 2003 11:23 AM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow. Sorry.
From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 July 2003 11:23 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Also - Justice, I agree that your comment about Palestinians not regarding human life as highly as Israelis do is racist. Please watch it from now on.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 July 2003 11:37 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No problem, Ray. Glad it's cleared up. Another thing. It would be nice if we didn't label people trolls or racists or whatever. I realize that we all do it sometimes, and the Israel-Palestine conflict gets contentious. But it really polarizes the debate and gets things off track when we start with the name-calling. If someone makes a racist comment, tell them that their comment was racist and why instead of these one-line shots calling the person themselves a racist. We all say stupid things sometimes, and our thoughts aren't always expressed very well. And we all have unconscious prejudices - the idea is to recognize them or be open to others calling us on them. Nobody is open to being called on racist assumptions or statements if everyone gangs up on them and calls them "a racist".

Obviously if we see a pattern of repeated racist postings by someone, then it's fair to recognize that pattern. In which case, generally the person gets warnings and finally gets banned.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 08 July 2003 11:51 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
There could have been peace long ago but what ever Israel did wasn't enough.

True. No matter how much land she occupied, settled, and stole from Palestinians, it never seems to be enough.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 08 July 2003 11:59 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
[QB]

[quote]There could have been peace long ago but what ever Israel did wasn't enough.


Because Zionists thought that the only way to success was to ally themselves first with Imperial authorities, then with the 'authority' of weapons. They thought that if they were just scary enough, the neighbours might like them. The key problem is this: Though Zionists prattled on and on and on and on about The Arab Question, they never thought to genuinely consult the Arabs in question.

And frankly the rest of your post are just characterisations of Arabs as irrational, hateful and bloodthirsty, with a little Israeli (European) supremacism thrown in for good measure.

"It's okay that we abuse them, because those people would abuse them worse..."

Great argument, Justice.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 08 July 2003 12:00 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is not fair there is a reason they call it Jihad that's not self defense. There is a reason Israel has been provoked and attacked almost constantly in it's 55 years of existence.

I'll ask you what if your wrong and my assumption is correct. Is sorry going to make it better if the world stops supporting Israel and sees the Israelis suffer. Or helps the Palestinians have an equal fighting power. Sure that would influence Israel to go back but how far do you think that will be before they feel they're against a wall. There isn't a whole lot of space between Jordan and the Mediterranean.

After 1000's of years and you think Jews learned nothing from their suffering now they want to get revenge right??? Well I got news most Arab countries I'm not talking about people I would like to believe that the majority of individuals are better then that. They see Israel as insult they see it as a disgrace they believe it should be destroyed at all costs. There is 55 years of constant attacks to prove it. If the coin were flipped and Israel wanted to do so you all know already that has the fire power it could nuke every single one of it's neighbors but no the Israeli's chose diplomacy. They didn't have too they could have had a cold war stand off and lasted a very long time assuming no sanctions by other countries were started forget American support all Israel needs is normal trade and it could stand off for years against the Arab countries but it chose diplomacy it gave land back. What ever happen to the spoils go to the victor especially when it wasn't him who started it even if Israel wasn't totally righteous the whole issue could have been settled back in 48 but nothing is ever enough.

The call for Jihad and you call me racist. I'm not talking about individuals so how can I be racist when I'm they I'm talking about the leadership the fanatic and radical leadership.

Sure in Israel has expanding settlements and I have denounced this many times. I admitted in there being Jewish terrorist groups. I even called the JDL a terrorist group but I'm a racist right. For supporting a country that has such high standards as high as it can possibly have in it's situation but no nothing is ever enough you think if they be nice and give them everything they want it will be enough. Well I'm not naive I know people don't learn by getting things on silver platter no Israel was not given to the Jews and silver platter and even though they got billions from the US they worked hard to build it into the modern descent country it is today the economy still makes it hard to live. Most north Americans or Europeans would never live in Israel let alone a place like Gaza or the west bank why because the want an easy life well the Israeli's want that to and have had enough of being pushed around on the other hand the Palestinians still get lots of money and what do the use it for inciting violence and buying more weapons to kill with rather then starting to build something that looks like a country. The Egyptians too a good help the billions of dollars the country gets to helping it's people.

And I'm still racist for thinking that some group of people is intolerable of another group. I'm all for tolerance of every person. But to think you can ignore or tolerate those who are intolerable of you well to me that is naive.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 08 July 2003 12:06 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:

You think that the Palestinians will have better lives when Israel is gone well every body knows that once Israel is gone each of it's neighbors will take a piece and treat the Palestinians even worse.


Well that's on the assumption that Israel will be gone. And we know that's not likely, however what I do know is that Palestinians were much better off before Israel arrived on their doorstep. The people of Palestine were full of culture and wealth and lived peaceful lives.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 08 July 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
The call for Jihad and you call me racist. I'm not talking about individuals so how can I be racist when I'm they I'm talking about the leadership the fanatic and radical leadership.

Do you know what Jihad means ??? I sense a strong amount of ignorance when you use the term.

You also mention that there is not much room between Jordan and the Medaterrainian Sea. Well you know... there is far less room between Jordan and Israel.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 08 July 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
This is not fair there is a reason they call it Jihad that's not self defense.

Actually, the rules for armed Jihad in the Koran are explicit in that it must ALWAYS be in self-defense, or to relieve the suffering of Muslims being persecuted in another kingdom.

quote:
There is a reason Israel has been provoked and attacked almost constantly in it's 55 years of existence.

And it couldn't have anything to do with them siding with imperial powers, ignoring the natives, and figuring they could scare everybody in the neighbourhood into accepting a largely European colonisation in their midst?

quote:
I'll ask you what if your wrong and my assumption is correct. Is sorry going to make it better if the world stops supporting Israel and sees the Israelis suffer. Or helps the Palestinians have an equal fighting power. Sure that would influence Israel to go back but how far do you think that will be before they feel they're against a wall. There isn't a whole lot of space between Jordan and the Mediterranean.

You mean like the Iron Wall that the Palestinians are up against today as a result of a century old policy designed to destroy their political, economic, and cultural claim to the land in Palestine? Actually, there is one other solution that you fail to mention - and that is that Israel decides to become a secular citizenship based democracy which provides equal settlement and other legal rights to everyone, regardless of ethnic heritage. Jews would be protected, Arabs would be protected, heck, anyone who met the immigration criteria could be protected.


quote:
They see Israel as insult they see it as a disgrace they believe it should be destroyed at all costs.

If the people in these countries are to be trusted, as you say, then perhaps there is some truth to their claim that it is an insult? Or are we to believe that they are just savages?

quote:
What ever happen to the spoils go to the victor especially when it wasn't him who started it even if Israel wasn't totally righteous the whole issue could have been settled back in 48 but nothing is ever enough.

Israel didn't start it? Who did then? Who had already occupied land in excess of the Partition agreement, before the Mandate period was officially up? Who's soldiers and terror organisations were already clearing Arab villages and grabbing every hilltop they could BEFORE the Mandate period was over? Who executed Plan Dalet, a deliberate operation aimed at 'tranferring' as many Arabs as possible from their homes into surrounding lands immediately after declaring statehood?

quote:
For supporting a country that has such high standards as high as it can possibly have in it's situation but no nothing is ever enough you think if they be nice and give them everything they want it will be enough.

Ethnic cleansing is high standards? Covering it up for 50 years is high standards? Illegal occupation and colonial settlements are high standards? Discriminatory ethnocratic politics are high standards? The use of every provocation, and even some made up ones, for the continued expansion of Israeli territory is high standards? Unprovoked attacks on targets in other countries (Tunisia, Iraq) are high standards? The consistent policy of destroying Palestinian civil and economic life with an eye to destroying their nationhood is high standards? A constant barrage of racist and colonial attitudes among powerful Israeli leaders is high standards?

quote:
on the other hand the Palestinians still get lots of money and what do the use it for inciting violence and buying more weapons to kill withrather then starting to build something that looks like a country.

They don't get anything near the amount of money that Israel does. Second, during the Oslo period, the PA actually built an impressive amount of police, medical, and educational infrastructure. They began, in earnest, to create a social support structure for their people: i.e. all the hallmarks of a state. Is there any coincidence that the primary target of IDF violence over the past coupld of years have been exactly these institutions? In fact, Justice, your leaders have destroyed deliberately each and every attempt by the Palestinians to create the foundation of a state. Moreover, they have continually denied to the PA and Palestinians generally, the basic necessities of state-building - i.e. control over movement (economic), control over the power generation and water supplies, control over contigious territory, control over imports and exports. Sorry, Justice, your gambit is a failed one.


quote:
And I'm still racist for thinking that some group of people is intolerable of another group.

No you are a racist for generally depicting all Arabs as anti-semitic, violent, irrational beasts who for all of Israel's superiority, just can't seem to get enough of abusing her....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 08 July 2003 05:14 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was depicting their governance not them. There is not one Arab nation which is self governed democratically by a majority. It wouldn't if they were half as democratic as Israel maybe then you could justify it.

But the point is neither you nor I know what the people want. I believe that the people would like to live in peace to bad because a couple militants (not freedom fighter not people committing acts of self defense) they have ruined it for the own people my heart goes out to the suffering of the Palestinian people but nothing can be done till this evil is up rooted I don't blame them I don't doubt for a moment they are suffering horribly but they have to find the strength to stop the terrorism same as Israel must move the settlers.

If you think all Israeli's are settlers then you are racist.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
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posted 08 July 2003 05:29 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You probably all think I'm too narrow minded and selfrighteous for you so you'll probably kick me off this board soon but that will just prove my point how one sided and simple things are to you.

There is only israel too blame and it will never change in your mind that both sides need some accountablity. Go ahead kill and die for the name of your cause I'd rather not kill for mine but in some cases it's better then dying


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3192

posted 08 July 2003 06:13 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
they have ruined it for the own people my heart goes out to the suffering of the Palestinian people but nothing can be done till this evil is up rooted

What evil are you talking about here?

quote:

You probably all think I'm too narrow minded and selfrighteous for you so you'll probably kick me off this board soon but that will just prove my point how one sided and simple things are to you.

I think if you were going to get kicked off the board for your point of view it would have happened by now.

quote:

Go ahead kill and die for the name of your cause I'd rather not kill for mine but in some cases it's better then dying

Who said anything about killing or dying for our cause? I tend to think of most people's positions on here as distinctly anti-death.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 09 July 2003 10:31 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
they have ruined it for the own people my heart goes out to the suffering of the Palestinian people but nothing can be done till this evil is up rooted
Dubbya! Is that you?

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged

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