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Author Topic: Discrimination in the Israeli school system?
clockwork
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posted 30 June 2003 05:30 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Nearly one in four of Israel's 1.6 million schoolchildren are educated in a public school system wholly separate from the majority. The children in this parallel school system are Israeli citizens of Palestinian Arab origin. Their schools are a world apart in quality from the public schools serving Israel's majority Jewish population. Often overcrowded and understaffed, poorly built, badly maintained, or simply unavailable, schools for Palestinian Arab children offer fewer facilities and educational opportunities than are offered other Israeli children. This report is about Israel's discrimination against its Palestinian Arab children in guaranteeing the right to education.

SECOND CLASS - Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/ISRAEL0901-01.htm#TopOfPage]


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 05:41 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Breeding hatred in Palestinian classrooms

Two can play this sad game.

quote:
Since Oslo, Israeli schools have implemented a comprehensive "peace education" program that utilizes books encouraging students to accept and respect Arabs. Through stories and anecdotes, these books deplore prejudice. They present Arab traditions as admirable, and Arab people as good human beings whose hopes and dreams are very similar to those of their Jewish counterparts.

By contrast, Palestinian schools teach a form of anti-Jewish hatred and intolerance not unlike what was taught to German children during the Nazi era. For instance, ninth-grade Palestinian students study from official textbooks that assert, "Treachery and disloyalty are character traits of the Jews, and therefore one should beware of them." These books depict Jews as satanic, violent, "thieving conquerors" who have stolen Arab land and must be slaughtered.


[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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Black Dog
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posted 30 June 2003 05:43 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who's more credible: HRW or Horowitz?
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 30 June 2003 05:49 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why would Israel allow their schools to teach anti-Semitism?

I'm well aware that PA schools aren't very kosher. I'm just surprised Israel would allow it into their schools as well.


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Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 05:52 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by black_dog:
Who's more credible: HRW or Horowitz?

Its not a matter of credibility. Both these stories do not auger well and I pray that with some trust on both sides these issues will be resolved.

The question is why flog this here? While Israel is clearly not perfect on educational matters in the light of eternal verities this matter is one that decent folks will resolve.

Surely this wasnt an attempt to just paint Israel in the most negative light possible? No, no way not here on Babble...


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 30 June 2003 05:57 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, I'm sorry. It's okay for you to post every problem faced by a Jewish person the world over but I'm the one playing a game here.

Takes two to tango, to use the cliche.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 30 June 2003 05:59 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Its not a matter of credibility. Both these stories do not auger well and I pray that with some trust on both sides these issues will be resolved.

Ah, but it is a matter of credibility. Really, Mishei, considering the stank you raised over someone quoting Lyndon Larouche a while back, I'm surprised you would think no one would question the credibility of a racist whack-job like Horowitz, who lays the blame for the entire conflict in the region wholly on "Arab racism".

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: black_dog ]


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Stockholm
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posted 30 June 2003 06:51 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I tend to believe both stories. The solution here is simple:

1. Israel should be obliged to fund all schools on an equal basis based on per capita grants for each student. That way the Arab schools within Israel get identical amounts of money as Jewish schools.

2. A team of international educational experts should vet and approve all textbooks and curriculum in Palestinian schools. This would ensure that nothing is taught that crosses the line from supporting the Palestinian position on the overall conflict to rank anti-semitism. All books that spread pure Nazi inspired anti-Jewish tripe to Arab children should be confiscated and burned in public. If there are any schools in Israel that teach any anti-Arab tripe those should also be burned in public.

Here in Canada we have anti-hate laws that prevent this. In any comprehensive peace settlement in the Middle East, the education system of both countries needs to be put under the trusteeship of people from civilized countries like Canada, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries to remove all the hate propaganda.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 07:03 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by black_dog:

Ah, but it is a matter of credibility. Really, Mishei, considering the stank you raised over someone quoting Lyndon Larouche a while back, I'm surprised you would think no one would question the credibility of a racist whack-job like Horowitz, who lays the blame for the entire conflict in the region wholly on "Arab racism".

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: black_dog ]


Sorry but Horowitz is no Lyndon Larouche number one. Number two the problems with the PA education system has been well documented to reflect Horowitz's thesis.

Like this:

Antisemitism in PA schools

Or this which I posted a short while back:

The Guardian


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 07:06 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is probably not the best but should be accurate enough for now source

For the year 1999

Arabs in Israel
Male Literacy 95%
Female Literacy 88%

Egypt
Male Literacy 66%
Female Literacy 43%

Jordan
Male Literacy 95%
Female Literacy 83%

Lebanon
Male Literacy 92%
Female Literacy 80%

Libya
Male Literacy 90%
Female Literacy 67%

Saudi Arabia
Male Literacy 84%
Female Literacy 66%

Syria
Male Literacy 88%
Female Literacy 59%

The system is unfair in Israel a needs to be fixed I have no complaints to HRW for there report or scrutinizing. Still I think there are certain priorities people need to get strait and if this is what going to be used to show how evil and unjust Israel is then I wish all countries were as bad as Israel.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 30 June 2003 07:06 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Horowitz is a right wing propagandist.

quote:
Its not a matter of credibility. Both these stories do not auger well and I pray that with some trust on both sides these issues will be resolved.

Because you've claimed several times that there is no discrimination against minorities in Israel, that everyone is treated the same.

From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 June 2003 07:32 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, some of the arguments about mitigating criticism of discriminatory practices read an awful lot like the way South Africa's government used to justify its treatment of blacks.

The basic argument went like this: "Sure, we're bad, but LOOK! LOOK OVER HERE! We treat our blacks better, really!" South Africa's government even trotted out the same crap about the differential black literacy rates in SA versus the "frontline states" and it boiled down to "sure, our whites get the best education possible, but since the kaffirs call us baas we pat their little heads and make sure they still get a 90% literacy rate so they can read the cooking instructions for when the baas wants a fine dinner."

Since when is it the hallmark of success to compare yourself with nations that come in dead last in most quality of life statistics?

This would be like the United States comparing its black male unemployment rate to, say, Uganda's, and crowing about it.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 07:40 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't have statistics of Arab literacy in the US or other western countries however if you compare over all Literacy you'll see that Israel is at the top there too.

95% of Arabs in Israel, 95%!!! That's better then if you compared it to the literacy rate of the general population in Canada the US or Brittan.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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DrConway
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posted 30 June 2003 09:06 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There you go again!
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 09:08 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's not a matter of mitigating it's a matter of setting priorities straight!

If you can't set priorities straight you have a real problem with ethics.


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skdadl
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posted 30 June 2003 09:18 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I repeat Mycroft's point: This thread is happening because Mishei has repeatedly claimed that there is no discrimination against minorities in Israel.

Now, given evidence that there is, Mishei is performing his usual manoeuvre when cornered: try to throw the searchlight on someone else.

To all now engaged in the debate in Ontario about public funding for private schools: look at this example, and weep.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 June 2003 09:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I'm surprised that you would post an article that compares Palestinian schools to Nazi Germany without denouncing such a vile comparison.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 09:25 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl

Hey I never said there is no discrimination against minorities but overall......

Need I say more?

Like I already said its matter of setting priorities straight.

And anyways I don't think anyone will deny that there is discrimination in Israel against minorities. It's just that the way most people present things on this board as if Israel is the only place in the world where injustices are done! or in slightly less biased cases Israel is 10,000 times worse then any other place in the world


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Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 09:29 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei, I'm surprised that you would post an article that compares Palestinian schools to Nazi Germany without denouncing such a vile comparison.

Is it Michelle?

In the Nazi schools pupils were taught that Jews were a sub class that should be destroyed

In Palestinian schools are taught that Jews are a sub class that should be destroyed

In Nazi schools pupils were taught to hail Hitler

In Palestinian schools pupils are taught to hail Arafat.

Yup there are many differences I guess

Oh and if anyone wants to compare how Israel runs Palestinian refugee camps to Nazi ghettos go ahead it will be an interesting thing to see

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Michelle
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posted 30 June 2003 09:30 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have no problem with you using that comparison. Just don't complain about it being out of bounds and a sacred cow the next time someone else makes similar comparisons.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 June 2003 09:36 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
I don't have statistics of Arab literacy in the US or other western countries however if you compare over all Literacy you'll see that Israel is at the top there too.

95% of Arabs in Israel, 95%!!! That's better then if you compared it to the literacy rate of the general population in Canada the US or Brittan.


I don't think you understood me.

I was mocking the fact that the defenders of Israeli discrimination against Arabs use the specious "fact" that Arab literacy rates are higher in Israel than surrounding Arab nations, even though it's actually a really stupid comparison to make because what's being done is to compare nations that come in dead last in almost everything because there's no way you'd get away with doing comparisons to the industrial nations for Arab literacy.

But then it's all right as long as Arabs know who is the baas, right?

PS. Canada's overall literacy is 98%. Nice try.

quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
It's not a matter of mitigating it's a matter of setting priorities straight!

If you can't set priorities straight you have a real problem with ethics.


You have managed to astound me dead in my tracks again. I really want to have some of that acid you're taking, because it sounds like you're on a totally different planet.

So, Israeli discrimination in the area of education is "OK" because it's all about "Setting priorities"? Good grief.

All that matters is that they know when to say "Yes, baas", right?

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 10:13 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Originally posted by DrConway:
I was mocking the fact that the defenders of Israeli discrimination against Arabs use the specious "fact" that Arab literacy rates are higher in Israel than surrounding Arab nations, even though it's actually a really stupid comparison to make because what's being done is to compare nations that come in dead last in almost everything because there's no way you'd get away with doing comparisons to the industrial nations for Arab literacy.

see if there the problem is worse in those places then why don't we start by fixing them first?


quote:

Originally posted by DrConway:
So, Israeli discrimination in the area of education is "OK" because it's all about "Setting priorities"? Good grief.

I never said that

Here or you misunderstood me or you deliberately took my words and change them around to make me look like a racist nice try.

Your focusing only on Israel I'm looking at the Global picture. Israel has things it needs to fix once again I'm not denying it but if you are concerned about the literacy and education of people if you like you can focus only the Arabs. There are many countries where the situation is in much more dire need of care therefore you would start with them. Set your priorities straight get your ethics straight.

quote:

Originally posted by Justice:
And anyways I don't think anyone will deny that there is discrimination in Israel against minorities. It's just that the way most people present things on this board as if Israel is the only place in the world where injustices are done! or in slightly less biased cases Israel is 10,000 times worse then any other place in the world

This is your goal isn't it???

[ 01 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 30 June 2003 11:58 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So what do the settler schools teach about the Arabs? Or the religious schools in Israel proper?

I see a lot about anti-Semitic caricatures in the Arab press but nothing about anti-Arab caricatures in the Israeli press (and there are many - the Jewish Tribune cartoon that the Bnai Brith had to apologise for was drawn by a mainstream Israeli cartoonist.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 01 July 2003 12:08 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So what do the settler schools teach about the Arabs? Or the religious schools in Israel proper?

I see a lot about anti-Semitic caricatures in the Arab press but nothing about anti-Arab caricatures in the Israeli press (and there are many - the Jewish Tribune cartoon that the Bnai Brith had to apologise for was drawn by a mainstream Israeli cartoonist.


Not the Jewish the tribune nor the settlers represent the Israeli main stream.

Note also there is many more right wing Jews percentage wise outside of Israel then in Israel. Anti-Semitism and the way Israel is depicted in world main stream media is probably partially responsible for this.

[ 01 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Mishei
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posted 01 July 2003 12:33 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Mishei, I'm surprised that you would post an article that compares Palestinian schools to Nazi Germany without denouncing such a vile comparison.
True the comparision was inappropriate. But it is not ghettos and the manner in which human beings were being treated that was compared. It was school curriculae.

That said , the comparision was totally uneecessary in the light of the evil of nazi imagery as a whole.

quote:
This thread is happening because Mishei has repeatedly claimed that there is no discrimination against minorities in Israel.
Really? That's the reason huh? Can you actually say that is why this thread was started. I see nothing here to suggest this. Nothing whatsoever.

[ 01 July 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 July 2003 06:38 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Mishei, I'm surprised that you would post an article that compares Palestinian schools to Nazi Germany without denouncing such a vile comparison."

Is it Michelle?

In the Nazi schools pupils were taught that Jews were a sub class that should be destroyed

In Palestinian schools are taught that Jews are a sub class that should be destroyed

In Nazi schools pupils were taught to hail Hitler

In Palestinian schools pupils are taught to hail Arafat.

Yup there are many differences I guess

Oh and if anyone wants to compare how Israel runs Palestinian refugee camps to Nazi ghettos go ahead it will be an interesting thing to see


For one thing, I'll join Dr. Conway and also do what I haven't yet done, and *plonk* "Justice" (irony is alive, irony never died!).

Second, Mish, I'm surprised that you have no more to say about this than that it is "inappropriate." Given your former concerns about babblers throwing around nazi comparisons, or even using terms such as "grammar-nazi" I find your mild comment about anyone comparing Palestinians to Nazis rather strange.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 01 July 2003 08:34 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's all about what's convenient, I suppose.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 01 July 2003 09:34 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
It's all about what's convenient, I suppose.

And

quote:
find your mild comment about anyone comparing Palestinians to Nazis rather strange.

Nothing would ever be good enough for either of you. I made my comment. It was critical and to the point. But it really wouldnt matter what I said because both of you would never be satisfied.

It is part of your obsession with monitoring me and my responses.


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WingNut
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posted 01 July 2003 09:38 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Not the Jewish the tribune nor the settlers represent the Israeli main stream.

That may be true but then the tail is wagging the dog as settler society determines the direction of Israeli society and the relationship with Palestninians.
quote:

Note also there is many more right wing Jews percentage wise outside of Israel then in Israel. Anti-Semitism and the way Israel is depicted in world main stream media is probably partially responsible for this.

That is just silly.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 01 July 2003 09:58 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Note also there is many more right wing Jews percentage wise outside of Israel then in Israel. Anti-Semitism and the way Israel is depicted in world main stream media is probably partially responsible for this.

I don't even fully get what you're saying here. Historically, anti-Semitism has not always caused Jews to turn to the right - otherwise why would so many have been active in the feminist and civil-rights movements? So why would it necessarily cause them to turn to the right now? There are multiple ways to react to this situation.

As for Israel, I don't doubt that it's an issue, and certainly there have been offensive and unfair representations of Israel, especially outside of North America, but in my personal experience, being Jewish does not automatically lead to support of Israel, or even to significant interest in it. And admittedly, I'm only one person, but I sincerely doubt that my friends and acquaintances represent that much of an aberration.

[ 01 July 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 July 2003 10:32 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Nothing would ever be good enough for either of you. I made my comment. It was critical and to the point. But it really wouldnt matter what I said because both of you would never be satisfied.

It is part of your obsession with monitoring me and my responses.



I don't want to sound obsessive, but come on.

You'd be leaping up and down ranting that such direct comparisons are evil PERIOD etc. etc. etc. if anyone made similar comments about Israelis.

That said,I'll be monitoring your posts quite carefully from now on.....


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 01 July 2003 10:46 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The bullies are watching you, Mishei.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 02 July 2003 01:36 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
I did not read all the posts on this subject, so this could be a repeat, but a few weeks ago I came across this Arab human rights site that had statistics on this.

http://www.arabhra.org/article26/statistics.htm


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 02 July 2003 02:17 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think this table is encouraging:

Major positive things to note:

Unemployment rate among Arabs 1995 is less then Jews.

The Median years of schooling has been reduced by nearly 2.5 Years there was a difference of 4.3 in 1970 to only 2 in 1995. Not quite equal but this shows improvement and a trend that will hopefully continue until things are equal

Major negative things to note:

average gross urban income is of serious concern hopefully the peace process will improve the situation here for both. Out of 6.5 million there is about 1million bellow the poverty line and I'd say its about 500,000 each but it's still not fair since the Arabs are only about 1/6 of the population no one should live in poverty

Number of students per class room the increase is bad on either side it is worse on the Arab side sadly but look as the difference in population growth it's not only a matter of government spending. The table notes conveniently how many persons per household and growth rate per population to show how unfair things but not how many children per couple this would also raise some issues of concern there is a big difference in the number of children per Arab couple verses Jewish especially if you do not include the Jewish orthodox minority.

There are some other Issues of concern I admit. I do need to analyze them more carefully to make sure I don't make any mistakes but this should be enough for now.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 02 July 2003 02:25 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For one thing, I'll join Dr. Conway and also do what I haven't yet done, and *plonk* "Justice" (irony is alive, irony never died!).

why don't you try and see if you are able to prove me wrong then. Yes it is Ironic thank G-d most of the world has changed but sadly not the PA or you I geuss.

quote:
Oh and if anyone wants to compare how Israel runs Palestinian refugee camps to Nazi ghettos go ahead it will be an interesting thing to see

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 02 July 2003 02:28 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That may be true but then the tail is wagging the dog as settler society determines the direction of Israeli society and the relationship with Palestninians.

And Maybe it's the Hamas and other orginizations like it that have everyone by the Balls.

quote:
That is just silly.

so what is your explenation?

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 02 July 2003 02:42 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for Israel, I don't doubt that it's an issue, and certainly there have been offensive and unfair representations of Israel, especially outside of North America, but in my personal experience, being Jewish does not automatically lead to support of Israel, or even to significant interest in it. And admittedly, I'm only one person, but I sincerely doubt that my friends and acquaintances represent that much of an aberration.

Your absouletly right thank G-d for freedom

quote:
I don't even fully get what you're saying here. Historically, anti-Semitism has not always caused Jews to turn to the right - otherwise why would so many have been active in the feminist and civil-rights movements? So why would it necessarily cause them to turn to the right now? There are multiple ways to react to this situation.

1) The world is different today. History May have had an impact.

2) Being a feminist Jew or of any other Ideology doesn't mean you can't support Sharon. And Heck someone who supports Israel can also support Palestine.

3) Its a theory they are probably many other more complex matters involved. That is why I used the words "Probably" and "Partially"

P.S. I don't support Sharon I would like to believe that the supporters of Israel and Palestine would support people like Barak, Mitzna, Rabin, Peres and my 2 favorite Beilin and Ramon (Haim not Ilan of course)

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 02 July 2003 07:38 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
2) Being a feminist Jew or of any other Ideology doesn't mean you can't support Sharon. And Heck someone who supports Israel can also support Palestine.

On your first point, I'd say it's pretty hard for someone with a commitment to civil rights, human rights or internationalism to support the Butcher of Beirut.

On your second...I'm trying to think of a nice way to say "well, duh," but since you've repeatedly suggested that I and those who think like me are Hamas supporters, "don't care about" the people involved, want to see the Jews die, etc., etc., etc., perhaps I shouldn't bother.

So...yes. That's obvious. I think that's obvious to everyone but you.

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 July 2003 10:33 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
The bullies are watching you, Mishei.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.



Smith, you are in serious need of help. Are you off your meds?

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 02 July 2003 10:34 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why, are you off yours?
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 July 2003 10:36 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
Why, are you off yours?

Ohhhh isn't that clever. And you went to school and everything. I am impressed with your ability at comeback...

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 02 July 2003 10:41 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You didn't go to school?

I don't think "you are in serious need of help" is much of a comeback either, but what do I know, right? I'm young and my grandma can't speak Yiddish.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 July 2003 10:43 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
You didn't go to school?

I don't think "you are in serious need of help" is much of a comeback either, but what do I know, right? I'm young and my grandma can't speak Yiddish.


Forgive my confusion but what in hell are you babbling about? If I didnt know better I would take this as a bit of an ethnic slur. What does my grandmother speaking Yiddish have to do with anything we chat about here?? Smith as much as we dislike each other, this I truly find surprising and sad.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 02 July 2003 10:46 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You don't remember Zisel's posts in the other thread?

Well, so be it. Enough thread drift for now.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 July 2003 10:49 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think she was referring to your defence of Zisel the other day when you were claiming that Smith doesn't have respect for her elders because of her reaction to Zisel's Yiddish grandmother's sayings. I doubt Smith has any problem with Yiddish-speaking people.

In any case, this really is turning into a swipefest, so let's move along, shall we?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 July 2003 10:54 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I think she was referring to your defence of Zisel the other day when you were claiming that Smith doesn't have respect for her elders because of her reaction to Zisel's Yiddish grandmother's sayings. I doubt Smith has any problem with Yiddish-speaking people.

In any case, this really is turning into a swipefest, so let's move along, shall we?



Ah yes, well OK but it was really unecessary to use that form of attack.

Smith, as always if you really want to engage me personally I would be pleased to have you PM me on this or any other matter so as to avoid thread drift. As always an open invitation which you have never taken me up on only because you seem to enjoy taking these public swipes. Please in future use the PMs for these private attacks.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 July 2003 11:04 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

It's just sooo cute. Look, they're doing the tango.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 02 July 2003 11:49 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please in future use the PMs for these private attacks.

After you.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 July 2003 11:55 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:

After you.



Ahh my pleasure. Thing is I do not attack you. I but defend myself.
That said, I will PM my defence from now on only in order to stop your thread drifting.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 02 July 2003 12:15 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That doesn't merit a response.

Back to the thread, although it has been getting rather meta itself. al-Qa'bong and others have repeatedly started threads on the subject of the Middle East apart from Israel/Palestine, and most of those threads have received very few posts. You can infer from that that we think Israel is "10,000 times worse" than anywhere else - just a little hyperbole there, eh what - or you can decide that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is the one most of us know about and draw your conclusions from there. I don't see our resident Israeli apologists, the ones who complain that Israel gets too much attention while starting Israel-related threads aplenty on this very board, rushing out to study the politics of Egypt or Qatar or the Maghreb, for example - or if they have, they certainly have not shared that knowledge with us.

I don't think it matters that Arabs in Israel are better off than Arabs in the poorest countries in the region (although just judging by literacy rates, citizens of some Arab countries like Jordan and Lebanon appear to be doing just fine). As DrConway and others have said, blacks here and in the States are better off than the average black person in Uganda or the Congo, but should we take that as a sign that we don't have problems with anti-black racism here, or that dealing with such problems is not a "priority"? I don't think so.

The issues with Israeli and Palestinian schools are important, but they're not the same issue. The problem in Israel is the disproportionately small amount of funding given to Arab schools and, consequently, the lower quality of those schools. Yes, Arabs tend to have more babies, but I find it hard to believe that Israel was unable to recognize or adjust for demographic trends among the Arab population.

The problem in Palestinian Arab schools is the nature of the material being taught. This is unacceptable and should be remedied, but doing that would require the presence of a certain amount of government infrastructure which I don't know if the Palestinians necessarily have at their disposal. And you can say that's because their government officials are corrupt; that's true, and certainly Israel has no direct responsibility for what's being taught in the schools, but Israel does have a fair bit to do with the Palestinian government's function or lack thereof.

So on the one hand we have unstated, institutionalized racism; on the other we have racism of a much cruder and more outwardly vicious nature. I don't think anyone in his or her right mind would try to excuse the actions of one government by the failures of the other, as far as education goes.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 July 2003 12:56 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"The bullies are watching you, Mishei.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA."

Smith, you are in serious need of help. Are you off your meds?


Fer cryin' out loud. Humour Mish, Humour. Why not consider going to your local library and reading a book on jokes or how to recognise them? Better yet, maybe you can find recordings of old radio plays like "The Shadow".

And yes, I've tried to get threads started on aspects of the Middle East other than Palestine, but they haven't attratcted much attention at all.

Curious as well is that in threads on Israel where I've stated reasons to support a binational state, those posts have been ignored. Could this be because I argued that a binational state is much healthier and would in the long-term protect Jews in the region?

Hardcore Zionists probably don't like to hear arguments like that because they can't pull the antisemitism card...or they just have no argument against it.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 02 July 2003 01:18 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Breeding hatred in Palestinian classrooms

Two can play this sad game.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


What you don't mention is that the few cosmetic changes in the Israeli school system are a RADICAL DEPARTURE from the curriculum of the past - which - like what is supposed to be the Palestinian curriculum, is filled with all kinds of racist vitriol.

Second, what you further fail to mention is that many of the textbooks that are being used in the PA are left over from Jordanian and Egyptian occupations of the West Bank and Gaza. These books are thirty or more years old, and are, in the spirit of their times, filled with anti-Jewish sentiment. They are largely the product of war: it's hard to try and kill someone unless you hate them. More importantly, they are still in use because A) The Israelis never put a lick of money into the education system during their occupation. And B) Because the continuing occupation has the economy in such a state that to ask for the education system to be reformed is cynical and self-serving.

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 02 July 2003 01:25 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
This is probably not the best but should be accurate enough for now source

For the year 1999

Arabs in Israel
Male Literacy 95%
Female Literacy 88%

Egypt
Male Literacy 66%
Female Literacy 43%

Jordan
Male Literacy 95%
Female Literacy 83%

Lebanon
Male Literacy 92%
Female Literacy 80%

Libya
Male Literacy 90%
Female Literacy 67%

Saudi Arabia
Male Literacy 84%
Female Literacy 66%

Syria
Male Literacy 88%
Female Literacy 59%

The system is unfair in Israel a needs to be fixed I have no complaints to HRW for there report or scrutinizing. Still I think there are certain priorities people need to get strait and if this is what going to be used to show how evil and unjust Israel is then I wish all countries were as bad as Israel.


RED HERRING ALERT! RED HERRING ALERT! BATON DOWN THE HATCHES, JUSTICE IS HERE TO POINT US BACK IN THE DIRECTION OF THE HOLY COLONIAL MISSION: ONE OF ISRAELI GOODNESS VS. ARAB BACKWARDNESS....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 02 July 2003 01:49 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have no problem with you using that comparison. Just don't complain about it being out of bounds and a sacred cow the next time someone else makes similar comparisons.

Good call. Thank you Michelle for your sense of fair play.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 02 July 2003 02:14 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Fer cryin' out loud. Humour Mish, Humour. Why not consider going to your local library and reading a book on jokes or how to recognise them?
If you would have read my response you would have noted the humour...that is if you have a sense of one.

Number two, the issue of the nazi comparision with the PA curriculum. Let's be clear, I critisized the use of nazi imagery and will continue to critisize anyone who misuses such imagery especially whem it applies to the manner in which people treat others directly .


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 July 2003 02:28 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you would have read my response you would have noted the humour...

Your "meds" crack? Besides having been done to death on babble, it ain't very funny.

quote:
Let's be clear, I critisized the use of nazi imagery and will continue to critisize anyone who misuses such imagery especially whem it applies to the manner in which people treat others directly .

This sentence contains many many twists and dodges. Is the reader supposed to accept whatever glimpses it reveals at face value? The fact is that you haven't meted out equal criticism to everyone who "misuses such imagery."

Why not? That's the pertinent question.

Is it because an education system is not a manifestation of people treating others "directly"?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 02 July 2003 02:47 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
If you would have read my response you would have noted the humour...that is if you have a sense of one.

Number two, the issue of the nazi comparision with the PA curriculum. Let's be clear, I critisized the use of nazi imagery and will continue to critisize anyone who misuses such imagery especially whem it applies to the manner in which people treat others directly .


I remain on record criticising the criticism...

History should be secular. Nazism is history. No comparison is taboo. No subject is ineffable.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 02 July 2003 03:01 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As DrConway and others have said, blacks here and in the States are better off than the average black person in Uganda or the Congo, but should we take that as a sign that we don't have problems with anti-black racism here, or that dealing with such problems is not a "priority"? I don't think so.

I've read this analogy and I don't think it is valid because the United States and Uganda are not next door neighbors. They are on different continents and are worlds apart economically, culturally and geographically.

I think comparisons to the way human rights issues are handled in Israel versus their neighbors are very valid, just as it would be valid to compare living conditions in say, Ethiopia and Eritrea, and be able to ask some hard questions if you see a huge disparity between them.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 02 July 2003 03:28 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by leftylicious:

I've read this analogy and I don't think it is valid because the United States and Uganda are not next door neighbors. They are on different continents and are worlds apart economically, culturally and geographically.


I think comparisons to the way human rights issues are handled in Israel versus their neighbors are very valid, just as it would be valid to compare living conditions in say, Ethiopia and Eritrea, and be able to ask some hard questions if you see a huge disparity between them.


This argument is false for a number of reasons. First, why is it not, then, relevent to compare Israel to Belgium, simply because of geography? Moreover, why should we not strive for a standard which can be universally applicable? I realise this is academically out of fashion. Do we have a standard, or do we just make it up as we go along?

Second, Israeli legitimises much of its behaviour by advertising itself (literally) as a modern secular democracy which is part of 'the West.' This is an important issue when it comes to Western political and economic support for their actions. Are we supporting an actual 'secular democracy' that respects the same standards we hold ourselves and others to, or are we supporting a fiction? This is a concrete political problem.

Third - taking Israel out of the context of 'the West' of which Israeli society desires to be - and always has been quite consciously - a part, is to delink the creation and maintainance of Israel from the colonial and imperial undertakings of Western states in the Third World. Compared to your po-mo criticism of undue 'decontextualisation' of Israel, when we take into account the real power relations in the world, this decontextualising move is more dangerous if we are opponents of imperialism - which I assume you are.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 02 July 2003 03:46 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Courage,

I would call myself an opponent of imperialism, yes. But I also believe that the problems in the middle east are a lot more complex than they are sometimes presented here. I don't believe that because things are better for Israeli arabs than Syrian Arabs makes any discrimination Israel practices more "okay", but I also believe focussing solely on Israeli human rights abuses without examining the state of human rights in the region as a whole presents a distorted and untrue picture of the situation. Any discussion on discrimination in middle eastern school systems should start with the problems in Palestinian schools, since that is where the discrimination is worst. Just as any discussion on occupation in the middle east should start with Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories. Starting a discussion on occupation in middle east using Jordan's occupation of Palestinian territories as a starting point would be intellectually dishonest, in my opinion.

Sorry if I am not making much sense

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: leftylicious ]


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 02 July 2003 04:01 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
On your first point, I'd say it's pretty hard for someone with a commitment to civil rights, human rights or internationalism to support the Butcher of Beirut.
On your second...I'm trying to think of a nice way to say "well, duh," but since you've repeatedly suggested that I and those who think like me are Hamas supporters, "don't care about" the people involved, want to see the Jews die, etc., etc., etc., perhaps I shouldn't bother.
So...yes. That's obvious. I think that's obvious to everyone but you.

If you didn't notice my remark about the Hamas wasn't directed at you and it was a suggestion you can take it or leave it but if you leave it you can't call yourself an open minded person. Generally I appreciate and think you have good comments smith don't lose it please.

I didn't say anything about supporting Sharon (I assume the your reference to the butcher of Beirut). I even said specifically I didn't support Sharon and referred to supporting Israel.

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 02 July 2003 04:04 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
History should be secular. Nazism is history. No comparison is taboo. No subject is ineffable.

Your right nothing should be taboo we must support freedom of speech.

However some arguments are true some aren't

You can compare apples to apples or apples to oranges.

And we must be careful to avoid defamation of character or dehumanization by laying untrue claims.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 02 July 2003 04:08 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
RED HERRING ALERT! RED HERRING ALERT! BATON DOWN THE HATCHES, JUSTICE IS HERE TO POINT US BACK IN THE DIRECTION OF THE HOLY COLONIAL MISSION: ONE OF ISRAELI GOODNESS VS. ARAB BACKWARDNESS....

are you making fun because you don't have anything intelligent to say or did you actually have a point?


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 02 July 2003 07:25 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Courage's point is that you are making a standard colonialist argument - that it's okay if "we," the Westerners (and as noted, Israel tends to present itself as a Western state), treat "their" children worse than we treat our own, because even if "we" are racist and unfair to "them," "we" treat "them" better than their own leaders - in other words, we deserve to rule them because we're better, more compassionate, more humane than they are.

As noted above, white South Africans used to make the same argument about black South Africans - that because black South Africans were better off materially than Africans in some neighbouring countries, apartheid was somehow justifiable.

As for Sharon, I know you don't claim to be a Sharon supporter. I was responding to what you said here:

quote:
2) Being a feminist Jew or of any other Ideology doesn't mean you can't support Sharon. And Heck someone who supports Israel can also support Palestine.

In my opinion, while being a feminist Jew might be compatible with supporting Sharon, being a socialist, or an internationalist, or a Jew (or any person) concerned with civil rights, would pretty much make it impossible to support Sharon.

quote:
If you didn't notice my remark about the Hamas wasn't directed at you and it was a suggestion you can take it or leave it but if you leave it you can't call yourself an open minded person.

I'm sorry, but calling someone a terrorist supporter is just not on. I don't really care whom you directed that remark at; in my opinion, no one on this board deserves it.

As for taking Israel out of the context of the Middle East - well, I can see the point, but on the other hand, Israel is in many ways a Western colonial enterprise; its government also receives an immense amount of funding, both grants and forgiven loans, from Western governments (specifically the States) and from Western charities. So that's part of the context here as well - Israel has been propped up economically more than any of its neighbours. And I think it'd be dishonest not to take that into account when considering Israel's prosperity relative to the rest of the Middle East, or the quality of its social services (like its educational system).

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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Babbler # 4220

posted 02 July 2003 08:29 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for taking Israel out of the context of the Middle East - well, I can see the point, but on the other hand, Israel is in many ways a Western colonial enterprise; its government also receives an immense amount of funding, both grants and forgiven loans, from Western governments (specifically the States) and from Western charities.

That is true, but Isreal is not the only country in the middle east to get foreign aid from the US. Egypt, for example, is one of largest reciepients of US aid. Actually, for a long time the top three recipients of US foreign aid were Isreal, Pakistan, and Egypt in that order. (Ironic huh? One jewish country and two muslim ones). Plus most of the Gulf States (SA and Iraq in particular) are wealthy with oil money, and Israel is not.

I think you could accurately call most of the regimes in the Middle East western colonial enterprises actually. Certainly Iraq and Kuwait are.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 02 July 2003 08:48 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Courage's point is that you are making a standard colonialist argument - that it's okay if "we," the Westerners (and as noted, Israel tends to present itself as a Western state), treat "their" children worse than we treat our own, because even if "we" are racist and unfair to "them," "we" treat "them" better than their own leaders - in other words, we deserve to rule them because we're better, more compassionate, more humane than they are.

You can compare Israel to what ever you like you'll find that its standards aren't so bad. Once I state carefully this doesn't make it right.

More importantly I didn't justify Israel's wrong doings I said they needed to be fixed however I did say there needs to be prioritization you can start with those who are hurting but have a good chance survival or you can start with those whose lives are really at risk.

Further more this is not about colonialism this is about peoples needs. They way courage argues it seems as if he is more concerned about taking away Israeli rights then protecting Palestinians.

Courage seems to think that since Israel is a 1000% responsible for the Palestinian suffering then it's O.K. for the world to sit back and watch the Palestinians suffering Lebanon and Jordan because it's Israel's responsibility. No body knows when Israel will finally take responsibility so it doesn't matter how long the Palestinians suffer. No one should take responsibility until Israel does. This proves he doesn't care about the Palestinians at all.

I see most people saying it should be the Palestinians that "allow" the Israeli's to live in their land talk about treating someone like a second class. Once again the classes aren't equal Israel but the discrimination is far from systematic and that you can compare to any country you want.

quote:
I'm sorry, but calling someone a terrorist supporter is just not on. I don't really care whom you directed that remark at; in my opinion, no one on this board deserves it.

I didn't call anyone a terrorist I said that terrorism may have influenced some peoples opinion. It goes both ways the harder one pulls the harder the other pulls.


quote:
I think it'd be dishonest not to take that into account when considering Israel's prosperity relative to the rest of the Middle East, or the quality of its social services (like its educational system).

once again no different then another place every place in the world has these problem it's not fair and it doesn't make it right but just like almost every place in the world steps have been and are being taken to improve. In order to really make it improve the most important thing really is cooperation.

quote:
In my opinion, while being a feminist Jew might be compatible with supporting Sharon, being a socialist, or an internationalist, or a Jew (or any person) concerned with civil rights, would pretty much make it impossible to support Sharon.

I'm not for it. It might not be logical or make sense and you're probably right but in free world anything is possible go figure? So believe it or not these crazy things happen.

P.S. The rolly eyes aren't directed to you smith they are towards the crazy people I described


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 July 2003 11:36 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by leftylicious:
I've read this analogy and I don't think it is valid because the United States and Uganda are not next door neighbors. They are on different continents and are worlds apart economically, culturally and geographically.

I think comparisons to the way human rights issues are handled in Israel versus their neighbors are very valid, just as it would be valid to compare living conditions in say, Ethiopia and Eritrea, and be able to ask some hard questions if you see a huge disparity between them.


I was trying to make the analogy in a way that would be understandable, rather than in a strict one-to-one type of comparison.

However, If I used Mexico's quality of life statistics to make the USA look good, you could justifiably accuse me of playing games with numbers, and the argument against using Mexico and in favor of using Canada as the basis for comparison is defensible on the same grounds as argument against comparing the US to Uganda for the purposes of making the US look good.

Comparing one's nation with nations that come in way behind when their societies and economies are not the same is just self-puffery.

Israel is comparing itself with nations that come in almost dead last in most quality of life stats and, well gosh, no wonder it looks so good.

Besides, I was also remarking on the amusing undue emphasis placed on Israel's "Westernness", and then, in the same breath, Israel's defenders and government compare its stats with countries that aren't Western in order to make Israel look good.

A comparison, to be valid, needs to be, on its face, reasonably un-absurd.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 03 July 2003 02:51 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
Courage seems to think that since Israel is a 1000% responsible for the Palestinian suffering then it's O.K. for the world to sit back and watch the Palestinians suffering Lebanon and Jordan because it's Israel's responsibility. No body knows when Israel will finally take responsibility so it doesn't matter how long the Palestinians suffer. No one should take responsibility until Israel does. This proves he doesn't care about the Palestinians at all.



Gosh darn it pa! I purnt nevah seen a scarcrow as big as that'un.....

Not tonight, but one day....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 03 July 2003 11:53 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Gosh darn it pa! I purnt nevah seen a scarcrow as big as that'un.....
Not tonight, but one day....

If you have anything intelligent left to say I'm waiting, I like surprises.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged

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