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Author Topic: Israel Acknowledges Running 'Secret Jail'
April Follies
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posted 30 June 2003 10:36 AM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
AP news article

quote:
Israel's Shin Bet security agency has held Palestinian prisoners incommunicado for weeks at a time at a secret detention center, The Associated Press has learned. Prisoners say they are blindfolded and kept in black, windowless cells. When they ask where they are, they are told: "On the moon."

Israel refuses to say where the center is located or who is being kept there, but hints foreigners are among the prisoners. Human rights groups say a secret detention center would be in violation of international law.



From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 June 2003 11:19 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah yes. Another checkmark in favor of the Banana Republic of Israel. My, secret jails! So Western! So democratic!

Puh-leeeeeeeeeeze!


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 30 June 2003 11:21 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
DrConway, why are you so obsessed with banana republics? I think you need to go to a psychiatrist. Despite its peculiarities, like operating secret jails, Israel is no different from the UK or Canada. Shame on you and your anti-Israel hater ways.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 11:34 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Ah yes. Another checkmark in favor of the Banana Republic of Israel. My, secret jails! So Western! So democratic!

Puh-leeeeeeeeeeze!


And your banana fetish continues unabated.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 11:36 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
DrConway, why are you so obsessed with banana republics? I think you need to go to a psychiatrist. Despite its peculiarities, like operating secret jails, Israel is no different from the UK or Canada. Shame on you and your anti-Israel hater ways.
Good for you Smith...such clarity and passion. Im very proud of you for taking this minority albeit morally and ethically correct position

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 30 June 2003 11:43 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, what's a secret jail, a little torture, some disappearances, a few random slaughters...among friends?

Right?


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 11:51 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder if anyone understands or knows why the supreme court of Israel legalized some forms of torture.

Hint it has nothing to do with Israel's security.


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Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 11:53 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
Hey, what's a secret jail, a little torture, some disappearances, a few random slaughters...among friends?

Right?


I am proud of you more for questioning the legitimacy of everything you read and understanding the fear and unease that all people iin the area feel.

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Smith
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posted 30 June 2003 12:24 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What, you think people in banana republics don't feel the same fear and unease?
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 June 2003 12:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, fear and unease are legitimate reasons for jailing and torturing. Fear and unease is not limited to the judicial and penal systems. Fear and unease may lead to whole territories and their populations being held in humiliating bondage, by a frightened, anxious military power.

Why, thousands of Afghanis had to die because the people of the USA were stressed out by 9-11, so one shouldn't limit one's comments about aberrant psychology to Israelis.

Please, in the future, try to consider all points equally.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 30 June 2003 01:17 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Many countries in the world have such policies, including most of those in the Middle East. They are all empahtically in the wrong. All such institutions defend these measures as "necessary", usually for some variation on the theme of "national security".

The international community, largely reflecting the preponderance of world opinion, has deemed that "national security" is never sufficient excuse for such measures. Everybody claims that their case is "special" in such matters, but the bottom line is that human beings have by and large set up a standard for national behavior, and this violates that standard. Guatanamo has been much in the news, very similarly, for violating this standard, and deservedly so.

The reason for pointing out this specific case in this specific forum is to illustrate that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not, as sometimes portrayed, the struggle of a righteous nation victimized by unprovoked attacks. Rather, it is a much murkier matter of an occupying power which uses highly questionable methods in response to violent resistance.

That said resistance uses equally questionable methods is taken as read here; but one side's usage thereof does not excuse the other. Further, none-state crimes are held to account by the state in whose jurisdiction they're committed; it takes the world community to hold the state to account when the crimes are state-sponsored.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 03:13 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
What, you think people in banana republics don't feel the same fear and unease?

And now you are poking fun at Doc Conway's fetish. Smith you are really turning the corner.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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skdadl
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posted 30 June 2003 03:35 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
I wonder if anyone understands or knows why the supreme court of Israel legalized some forms of torture.

Hint it has nothing to do with Israel's security.



I'll bite, Justice: Why?

I must say, I have no idea m'self. I see two problems with torture: (1) It is wrong; and (2) It does not work -- the stats are endless.

Anyone who tries to justify torture is either a sadist or an idiot.

So maybe you could tell us which of those categories the Israeli courts decided to fit themselves into?


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Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 03:49 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Philosophically I'm Rule Utilitarian that should explain my personal feelings towards torture.

The Israeli court has made an attempt to regulate it because it's going to happen anyways. Instead of hiding the truth they prefered to be accountable. They didn't simply say torture is allowed they set up guide lines and rules not everything is permissible.

Basic rules.

*You are not allowed to kill anyone during the process of torture.

*You are not allowed to cause any physically harm that is irreversible or that will cripple the person in anyway for life.

If any of this happened any place else in the world the wrong doings would be covered up and no one would be held accountable.

I think this method is much more preferable to targeted assassinations if it can be proven that by doing so we have saved the lives of others.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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skdadl
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posted 30 June 2003 03:56 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
if it can be proven that by doing so we have saved the lives of others.

Justice, you go out and prove that.

As I have told you, there are endless stats demonstrating that torture yields nothing in the way of useful intelligence that saves lives. You do the research, sweetheart. You're living in a pulp novel at the moment.

NOTHING JUSTIFIES TORTURE.


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Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 04:01 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We could get into a philosophical ethical debate with out any end about whether its justified or not.

However my point is assuming it isn't justified. It could be bad or worse. Sort of like decriminalization of certain types of drugs in order to avoid people using harder drugs both are bad but you want to avoid people doing the worse of the two.


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Smith
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posted 30 June 2003 04:02 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If any of this happened any place else in the world the wrong doings would be covered up and no one would be held accountable.

Excuse me, but how long have they been running this jail? And how many people do we know are being held there? And do we know who they are? What part of "secret" don't you understand?

"Other people do worse" is an even worse justification for torture than "security." I suppose if I broke your arm you'd thank me for not breaking your neck.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 04:20 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Other people do worse" is an even worse justification for torture than "security." I suppose if I broke your arm you'd thank me for not breaking your neck.

That’s the point there not even allowed to break arms. If you break somebody's bones there is high probably it will affect his quality of life for the rest of his life.

quote:
Excuse me, but how long have they been running this jail? And how many people do we know are being held there? And do we know who they are? What part of "secret" don't you understand?

Yes the secrecy is a violation of human rights laws and even Israeli laws as it said in the article. Why is this such a shock? I'm not justifying it but I pretty sure Israel isn't the only country where this happens I'm sure it happens not just in third world countries but many westernized nations like Britain, the US and Canada.

Thank god they are external groups that monitor this would you rather have never known it existed? Sadly things like this are going to happen whether we like it or not at least in with in Israeli society and even in the government and army the are forces that well do their best to hold people as accountable as possible for wrong doings. However because of the conflict this is pretty hard. See really how many times Israel has made attempts to be accountable. It's not good but it could be way worse.

This may sound like a bad excuse but it's not original doesn't the PA say the same thing with regards to the way it deals with terrorists?


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skdadl
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posted 30 June 2003 04:24 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice, explain to me: What is keeping you from standing up on your hind legs and denouncing all torture???

What?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 04:28 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Justice, explain to me: What is keeping you from standing up on your hind legs and denouncing all torture???

Because it's not going to help first step is to control the damage second step is to fix it. Right now the damage is so great that fixing it to the point that would be best is going to be very gradual and take a long time.

But that's just it we can make the world a bit better but we're never going to make it perfect.


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April Follies
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posted 30 June 2003 04:42 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One way we make the world better is to take the worst aspects of human behavior, draw a line, and by mutual agreement determine: we shall not do this to one another. Torture, along with slavery and genocide, are high up on that list. We then make sustained efforts to prevent anyone from breaking this agreement for whatever benefit they think they can gain thereby.

Now, consider the argument of the form, "X is going to happen anyway. Therefore it makes sense to legalize and regulate X." If we said this was true for all activities X, nothing would be illegal, including rape and murder. Try substituting "genocide" for X and see how far that gets ya.

The trick is that the argument above is only operable when paired with other arguments. "Drug use hurts nobody but the user, and it's going to happen anyway, so..." In this case, the argument is that there's no compelling public interest in stopping someone from frying their own brains if they wanna. There is, however, a serious, compelling, and long term public interest in maintaining, to the highest possible degree, the societal agreement: we will not do such things as torture to one another.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 04:54 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rape, murder, genocide are things that are much, much more extreme obliviously none of these crimes can be tolerated these things are irreversible. Once again the point is to prevent real bad things from happening and make sure we don't cross the point of no return.
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skdadl
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posted 30 June 2003 04:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rationalizing torture IS a point of no return.
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Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 05:02 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trying to contain is not rationalizing.
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Smith
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posted 30 June 2003 05:04 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By making it legal and part of the official government system, we "contain" it?

Oooooookay.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 30 June 2003 05:06 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Rape, murder, genocide are things that are much, much more extreme obliviously none of these crimes can be tolerated these things are irreversible. Once again the point is to prevent real bad things from happening and make sure we don't cross the point of no return.

Sanctioning torture is on the same level as sanctioning rape, murder and genocide.
If you think torture is not a "real bad thing" that does not cause irreversable harm, well, you:
(A) Have never been tortured
(B) have never known anyone who's been tortured
(C) Are possibly a sociopath.

TORTURE CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED. DEFENSE OF TORTURE CANNOT BE RATIONALIZED. IT...IS...WRONG!


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 05:07 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No but by being accountable and not pretending it doesn't happen or Painting things over with pretty colors or sweeping problems under the carpet we do.
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Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 05:08 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well thankfully there is no torture by any of Israel's neighboring states. Hey there's an idea perhaps Israel can learn from Syria or Egypt or Yemen. There's an idea.


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Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 05:13 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sanctioning torture is on the same level as sanctioning rape, murder and genocide.

Is not if guidelines are set. Once again murder, rape, genocide have irreversible affects. Some kinds of torture have irreversible affects too but others do not.

That’s why I'm for detaining criminals but not capital punishment.

Torture is bad and should prevented as much as possible but it is impossible to stop completely at least we can insure some rights are upheld. As well I like to point out people don't only have rights they also have responsibilities.


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Black Dog
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posted 30 June 2003 05:13 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
No but by being accountable and not pretending it doesn't happen or Painting things over with pretty colors or sweeping problems under the carpet we do.

The point is: THIS SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING. Any country that uses and sanctions torture cannot call itself a democracy.

quote:
Well thankfully there is no torture by any of Israel's neighboring states. Hey there's an idea perhaps Israel can learn from Syria or Egypt or Yemen. There's an idea.

And if Syria, Egypt and Yemen jumped off a bridge, would Israel jump too?
Last I checked, none of those countries claimed to be the beacons of freedom and justice you're always saying Israel is.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 June 2003 05:16 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I do not see why you are being so difficult, skdadl. Regulation improves torture by making it more effective, and hence less will be needed. Thus less torture units will have to be expended to achieve the same results. This is a very good example of a rational, utilitarian process.

The criminals (it really is but a coincidence that they are Palestinians - and besides, they don't feel pain the same as we do) are actually better off under the new rules.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 30 June 2003 06:08 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No but by being accountable and not pretending it doesn't happen or Painting things over with pretty colors or sweeping problems under the carpet we do.

Oh. So in other words, if we say torture is wrong and every time we uncover it we punish those who have perpetuated it, we are "sweeping it under the rug." Whereas if we say torture is OK in some circumstances and DON'T punish everyone we catch doing it, we're "being accountable."

Oooookay then.

quote:

Well thankfully there is no torture by any of Israel's neighboring states. Hey there's an idea perhaps Israel can learn from Syria or Egypt or Yemen. There's an idea.

"Mommy, mommy, Johnny tortures his friends! I wanna torture my friends too! Why can't I torture my friends? Obviously, if Johnny is doing it, it must be okay, so why won't you let me do it too?"

quote:

Is not if guidelines are set. Once again murder, rape, genocide have irreversible affects. Some kinds of torture have irreversible affects too but others do not.

Oh?

Rape doesn't necessarily have irreversible physical effects. We say the damage is irreversible because the psychological damage is so great.

You don't think being tortured causes irreversible psychological damage, just as much as being raped?

quote:

Torture is bad and should prevented as much as possible but it is impossible to stop completely at least we can insure some rights are upheld.

Okay then! Let's legalize rape too! I say as long as the perp doesn't use a weapon on his victim, it's A-OK to force sex on people. After all, it's going to happen whether we sanction it or not, right? Hey, I'll tell you what, let's set up a Ministry of Rape! At least that way it'll happen in sanitary conditions!

quote:

As well I like to point out people don't only have rights they also have responsibilities.

Such as the responsibility not to torture each other?

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 07:23 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You take things too far.

There a many different kinds of torture none of which are good some bad and worse. The worse is as bad as rape, murder, genocide.

The bad kind is not good but it's better to contain it then let it become the worse kind. Change happens gradually.


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DrConway
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posted 30 June 2003 07:35 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
( chop )

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 June 2003 07:41 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
The Israeli court has made an attempt to regulate it because it's going to happen anyways. Instead of hiding the truth they prefered to be accountable. They didn't simply say torture is allowed they set up guide lines and rules not everything is permissible.

*snicker* *snort* Teeheeehee...

*deep breaths* *DEEEP breaths*

*unsuccessfully restraining laughter*

HEEHEE HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAA...
*gasping, turning red*
HO HO HO HO HYUK HYUK HYUK HAR HAR HAR...

I've never been so astounded into such helpless laughter as I have by this post of yours, Justice. Really, absolutely completely.

I roared with laughter so hard the walls shook, the windows rattled, and everybody on the block ducked because they thought an earthquake was coming.

I seriously refuse to believe that you actually believe it is acceptable for a country's government officials and law courts to justify torture in any way, shape or form, and especially not when said nation's officials and defenders continue to lay excessive emphasis on how "Western" and "democratic" the country is.

Read what you've written, for pity's sake! Read it! Why in heaven's name would you ever accept this absolutely appallingly lame attempt to paper over a lack of commitment to decency and civil rights?

"It's going to happen anyways."

I have two words for you, Justice.

NOT. ACCEPTABLE.

Period. End of story. You have no right to justify torture. For that way lies the Soviet Gulag, and all the imitations set up by banana republics the world over.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 08:23 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Take your pick what you can have it bad or worse but you are not going to have it good today it's a fact life wake up and smell the coffee. Things take time to change.

Your judgment and criticism isn't going to make things better You are better off telling jokes, laughing and enjoying your bananas you'd do less harm

I also suppose the next the next thing your going to tell me is that we should accept suicide bombings.

Riiiiiight!!!

Anyways they are excusable and legitimate to use against occupying forces and the poor Palestinians are suffering more then anyone else in the world.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 June 2003 08:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just wrote a big long message and erased it all because it was furious and then I'd have to ban myself.

Go meet torture survivors. Any kind of torture. Get to know them well, become really close. You'll see what kind of lasting damage it does even if there are no marks on their skin.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 08:41 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For the last time I'm not for torture it is bad but there are things that worse.And I must state once again change is going to take time

When the last time you met someone lost a limb from a suicide bombing?

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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DrConway
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posted 30 June 2003 09:04 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, and torture's any better than suicide bombing, right?

Bugger off, Justice.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 09:15 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes it is more possible to reverse the consequences of torture then suicide

and more importantly one act is generally perpetrated against innocent people which other is usually committed against not so innocent

And most importantly for the last time if you want to change anything it's going to take time and you're going to do things step by step.


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Michelle
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posted 30 June 2003 09:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I had a choice, I think I would choose losing a limb in a suicide bombing over being tortured over a period of time, frankly. I wouldn't think there would be anywhere near the kind of psychological trauma caused by being injured in a blast as there would be by slow, excruciating torture and interrogation being carried out by some sadist.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 June 2003 09:21 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
and more importantly one act is generally perpetrated against innocent people which other is usually committed against not so innocent

I don't give a good goddamn what you think the justification is for torture.

There. is. no. justification. possible. in. my. mind. period.

You cannot convince me that it is morally right to abuse and debase someone else, a human being, for any reason, let alone a fuzzy concept like "national security."

quote:
And most importantly for the last time if you want to change anything it's going to take time and you're going to do things step by step.

I got news for you:

I don't care if you tell me it's gonna take a long time to abandon torture.

Torture. is. not. acceptable.

If I have to explain this to you with a kindergarten primer with pretty pictures I'm going to have to uncork some of that plonk.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 30 June 2003 09:22 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Taking pleasure in the suffering of another living creature is absolutely the worst thing a human being is capable of. And note: only humans are so capable.

We must cease to create people who can do this; and those we have among us must immediately be locked up for good.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 30 June 2003 10:07 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The US military now makes a practice of the sort of "torture lite" the ill-named Justice cites as being sanctioned by Israel. Two Afghani men are now dead as a result of these gentle interrogations. Investigations into that matter continue. I'm sure, however, that their families will be reassured to know that they got the officially regulated version of death in pain.

I actually have met both torture and bombing victims, and both are suffering the physical and psychological effects a decade later. You can't rank suffering on some sort of hierarchy scale; you can only say that such things as rape, torture, and violent trauma have horrific effects on the victim long after the physical signs have (mostly) faded.

There's one point that hasn't yet been made here, though, that I think bears attention. Consider that torture affects the torturer as well. It's impossible to cause another human being suffering without either (a) desensitizing oneself to human pain, or (b) dehumanizing the victim. Think about that for a moment. The sanction of torture creates a necessity for the kind of thinking that either doesn't care about pain, or doesn't care about people. Now, think for awhile of the long-term effects of that sort of mindset on a society - and on its citizens.

Unless Justice wishes to become Exhibit A in support of that thesis, I strongly recommend he rethink the matter, perhaps after having read some survivor stories. Try Amnesty International.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 10:22 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Taking pleasure in the suffering of another living creature is absolutely the worst thing a human being is capable of. And note: only humans are so capable.

These interrogations aren't fun

Taking to reserve soldiers who got lost lynching them tarring their bodies apart in the street and burning them now that has a real purpose it sounds like great fun to me. Right???!!!


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 June 2003 10:29 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No shit they're not fun. But that doesn't excuse the most appalling kind of behavior that torture brings out in the torturer.

And you trying to hand-wave it away is the really lame part in this whole debate instead of confronting the reality: The deliberate use of pain to debase and abuse another human being is not an acceptable action under any circumstances whatsoever.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 30 June 2003 10:31 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:

These interrogations aren't fun

Taking to reserve soldiers who got lost lynching them tarring their bodies apart in the street and burning them now that has a real purpose it sounds like great fun to me. Right???!!!



Justice, you are incorrigible.

If you are feeling sorry for people who have tortured others -- well, that saves me ever posting to you again, and I hope it will save many others.

This is disgusting.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 10:32 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
April you make a very good point once again I'm not justifying torture and yes the affect it would have on torturer is an important point I must admit I missed and should be of grave concerned.

Torture is bad however once again the act is committed against some one who is generally not innocent verses an act which is towards usually those who are completely innocent. And once again I must point there are priorities. I'm against things like capital punishment but I still hold the life of an innocent person more valuable then the life of criminal.

And for the last time the most important some thing you must all realize if you want to change a bad situation it is going to have to be done gradually step by step

quote:
The US military now makes a practice of the sort of "torture lite" the ill-named Justice cites as being sanctioned by Israel. Two Afghani men are now dead as a result of these gentle interrogations. Investigations into that matter continue. I'm sure, however, that their families will be reassured to know that they got the officially regulated version of death in pain.

I don't what to say that, that Americans went too far is very bad and the circumstances of there death should be investigated if any injustice was done which is quite clears someone did something wrong then the perpetrators should be punished.

Even so irrelevant of whether they were killed or not did not stop to think that the information the American troops got from this sadly extreme measure could have been vital perhaps to save the lives of thousands of others (try not to think of Americans try to think of people in general) Is the temporary discomfort of one person important then the lives of even just 2 other people let alone 10 or 100 or 1000.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 30 June 2003 10:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I do feel bad for torturers. People who torture or mete out horrendous punishments like amputations are people too, and they compromise their humanity so deeply that I can't imagine what kind of psychological scarring it must cause.

I feel the same way about soldiers who come back scarred from front line battles after having killed and seen people killed.

I talked to a guy who for some reason had some kind of dealings with a trained former interrogator who used techniques that we would consider torture back in his home country until he escaped the country. I don't remember any details about the circumstances or even the country the guy came from or anything. I don't know whether he was forced to serve from a young age and was forced to become desensitized to what he had to do, or whether he was just a brute. I don't even remember whether the guy talked to him here or in another country. The only thing that stuck in my mind is the effect on the torturer because it had never occurred to me before to even think about that. I wish I could remember more - I'll have to ask the guy more about it the next time I talk to him which probably won't be any time soon.

Anyhow, this guy was telling me that this former interrogator is incredibly scarred from his experience, has nightmares all the time, is haunted. Now maybe we could say, serves him right, the bastard. But the fact is, the torture victim was not the only victim. Torture not only tortures the victim, but it stays with the torturer too. You've not only ruined the lives of the tortured, but also of the torturers. Which makes it, in my opinion, twice as horrible.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
April Follies
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posted 30 June 2003 10:53 PM      Profile for April Follies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So how does one know that it's "the bad people" being tortured? I mean, there generally isn't a trial involved. Can you tell them by their physical features? Their accent, perhaps? Membership in disapproved-of political groups? What's the criteria for saying, "This guy's a bad guy, the rules don't apply to him"? And how much proof is required that said guy is, actually, bad?

Things need to be done step by step, but stopping the use of torture is a step that most civilized nations took years ago. A European court in 1982 found that such practices - then used by the British in Northern Ireland - violated human rights law. The Israeli supreme court said the same, in fact, in 1999. So in fact it would seem that we're not talking a very big step at all.


From: Help, I'm stuck in the USA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 June 2003 11:09 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice, in one breath you claim you're not justifying torture, and in the next you're applying a utilitarian calculus which "weighs" x lives against y lives and attempts to mitigate the fact that harming a human being in order to accomplish some "grander result" is considered acceptable.

For this I am afraid I shall have to do what I once said I never had to do on babble:

*Plonk*.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
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posted 30 June 2003 11:16 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So how does one know that it's "the bad people" being tortured? I mean, there generally isn't a trial involved. Can you tell them by their physical features? Their accent, perhaps? Membership in disapproved-of political groups? What's the criteria for saying, "This guy's a bad guy, the rules don't apply to him"? And how much proof is required that said guy is, actually, bad?

Generally there is a lot surveillance and intelligence work done and trust me that is very not fun too and it is monotonous and strenuous work.

quote:
Things need to be done step by step, but stopping the use of torture is a step that most civilized nations took years ago. A European court in 1982 found that such practices - then used by the British in Northern Ireland - violated human rights law. The Israeli supreme court said the same, in fact, in 1999. So in fact it would seem that we're not talking a very big step at all.

Your right but under the circumstances as I explained it's going be a very difficult step.

A more serious problem is making a law that isn't enforced. If the Israelis make a law it should be enforced equally towards all peoples.

Once again though if you feel this issue is serious problem you do know that the problem is far worse in many other places in the world this doesn't excuse Israel from it's crimes but I think the more brutal the crimes the more attention it deserves and the more urgency there is to apprehend the perpetrators.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
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posted 30 June 2003 11:59 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sorry I see the problem now and the misunderstandings

Just check this out:


HRW letter to Beilin

quote:
Dear Minister Beilin,

Human Rights Watch warmly welcomes the September 6, 1999 ruling of the High Court of Justice in cases H.C. 5100/94, H.C. 4054/95, H.C. 6536/95, H.C. 51888/96, H.C. 7563/97, H.C. 7628/97, and H.C. 1043/99 on the legality of General Security Service's (GSS) use of "physical means" during interrogation. The court appropriately addressed both the general practice and specific interrogation methods that violate the absolute prohibition of torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), to which Israel has ratified.

The ruling is particularly noteworthy in its rejection of the state's claims that the government has the power to issue directives authorizing "the use of liberty infringing physical means during the interrogation of suspects suspected of hostile terrorist activities," and its finding that "the individual GSS investigator-like any police officer- does not possess the authority to employ physical means which infringe upon a suspect's liberty during the interrogation, unless these means are inherently accessory to the very essence of an interrogation and are both fair and reasonable."


If Israel not enforcing its own laws that is a problem. I also agree with HRW that the loop holes need to be fixed. My one concern is that security of Israeli civilian does not get compromised by new legislation.

Also please note that even HRW acknowledges that the process of fixing wrong doings has to be done gradually step by step and it is better to encourage positive actions then discouraging bad.

This site will also be of interest to many of you:
Public committee against torture in Israel

I support any internal group that scrutinize its own government policies

[ 01 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 02 July 2003 02:50 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Ah yes. Another checkmark in favor of the Banana Republic of Israel. My, secret jails! So Western! So democratic!

Puh-leeeeeeeeeeze!



Good for you DrConway...such clarity and passion. Im very proud of you for taking this minority albeit morally and ethically correct position.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 02 July 2003 02:55 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Justice, in one breath you claim you're not justifying torture, and in the next you're applying a utilitarian calculus which "weighs" x lives against y lives and attempts to mitigate the fact that harming a human being in order to accomplish some "grander result" is considered acceptable.

For this I am afraid I shall have to do what I once said I never had to do on babble:

*Plonk*.


UTILITARIANISM by John Stuart Mill (1863).

I'm amazed (amused?) that 'Marxists' and 'Totalitarians' always get blamed for this kind of argument. In fact, it is planted firmly in the WASP 'liberal-democratic' pantheon....

What's a few Iraqis in the cause of their Liberation, anyway?

What's a few Palestinian civilians in the cause of 'Israeli Security', after all?

So many edits, so few brains....
[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 08 July 2003 12:16 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So how does one know that it's "the bad people" being tortured? I mean, there generally isn't a trial involved. Can you tell them by their physical features? Their accent, perhaps? Membership in disapproved-of political groups? What's the criteria for saying, "This guy's a bad guy, the rules don't apply to him"? And how much proof is required that said guy is, actually, bad?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Generally there is a lot surveillance and intelligence work done and trust me that is very not fun too and it is monotonous and strenuous work.



It does seem unlikely (even under the best of circumstances) that those being held in these secret jails in Israel are being arrested and detained through legal means.

Thanks to Justice's fact-empty, off the cuff response, however, I am now completely convinced that all those held in secret jails are bad people and their jailers are good, saintly folks who deserve my sympathy for doing their monotonous and strenuous jobs and may actually feel something for their victims.

I was kinda thinking that the world was getting too complicated. All I needed was the heavy handed hammer of justice to make life simple again. I thank you.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged

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