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Author Topic: Accountability??? IDF officer jailed for refusing order during outpost removal
Justice
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posted 27 June 2003 09:47 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now I must admit Sharon is not serious enough about removing outpost but at least the IDF is serious about some of the tasks it has to do.

So when smith asks:

quote:
When was the last time the IDF admitted to any wrongdoing at all?

Here is just a little fresh accountability.

IDF officer jailed for refusing order during outpost removal


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 27 June 2003 10:45 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
Now I must admit Sharon is not serious enough about removing outpost but at least the IDF is serious about some of the tasks it has to do.

So when smith asks:

Here is just a little fresh accountability.

IDF officer jailed for refusing order during outpost removal


What does that have to do with real 'accountability' for the various crimes of the IDF? This officer disobeyed a direct order - this kind of 'accountability' is pedestrian military policy.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 June 2003 02:33 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And it could be compound Public Relations, as settlement construction hasn't slowed, and many of these "outposts" are to dwellings what decoys are to live ducks.
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Mishei
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posted 28 June 2003 09:37 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Blah blah balh..this is just so typical of those who will never give Israel a chance. It becomes all to clear to me that posters like Al and Courage have no interest in Israel as a Jewish state in this region.Any comments they make must be seen and understood through that prism.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 June 2003 10:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where's the newsflash there? There are a few posters on here who believe that Israel should be a binational, single, secular state rather than the two-state solution, or a state based on Judaism. So what?

All of your comments are made through the prism of your ideology about Israel too, right Mishei?

[ 28 June 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
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posted 28 June 2003 11:49 AM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Blah blah balh..this is just so typical of those who will never give Israel a chance. It becomes all to clear to me that posters like Al and Courage have no interest in Israel as a Jewish state in this region.Any comments they make must be seen and understood through that prism.

I agree with Mishei here. I'm just trying to figure out why there is such hostility directed towards Israel and Mishei


From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 June 2003 11:53 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nobody directed any hostility toward Mishei in this thread. Could you give me an example of something you see here that could be considered hostile to Mishei?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
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posted 28 June 2003 12:45 PM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not talking about this thread in particular, just in general.
From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 28 June 2003 01:02 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Where's the newsflash there? There are a few posters on here who believe that Israel should be a binational, single, secular state rather than the two-state solution, or a state based on Judaism. So what?

You want a good solution Michelle check the links at the top to the following thread:

How to make peace

Anybody who is calling for a binational state is or motivated to really destroy the Jews who live there or is ignorant especially in history. I would like us all to be free and get along. However that is unrealistic what needs to be done is what is needed insure peoples basic rights what is ideal sadly is just fantasy and won't happen. I'm a very optimistic person I believe there will be peace one day and I do think is a chance that the ideals you talk about will be realized how ever it needs to be a gradual process. First the law needs to be laid down the lines in the sand to be drawn and basic human rights restored and most importantly both sides have to stop the violence immediately and unconditionally(Yes the Palestinians needed a security force to protect them but they needed to dismantle terrorist group same as some Israeli soldiers needed to be disciplined of punished for their actions and radical settlers dealt with you can't have five different terrorist groups running like it's the wild west). then gradually after you give the 2 communities time to get used to each other perhaps one day the middle east will become like EU and people can travel and live freely where they chose to do so.

Here is an example of someone who is very logical

Sari Nusseibeh(president of Al Quds University in Jerusalem, who has also held key positions in Palestinian politics.)in the Israeli version of the site said :

quote:
The Israeli's will have to give up the dream on Schem and Hebron and the Palistinians will have to give the dream of Haifa and Accre

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 28 June 2003 05:00 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Blah blah balh..this is just so typical of those who will never give Israel a chance.

Huh? An officer disobeys a direct order and is punished, and we are supposed to be celebrating some grand volte face on the part of the Israeli government and state? Whatever, Mishei - when the settlements start coming down - and that means ALL of them - and that racist prison wall comes down, and Israeli society points to themselves individually, and turns to the Palestinians and says, mea culpa for what I have allowed you to go through, then we will be getting somewhere.

quote:
It becomes all to clear to me that posters like Al and Courage have no interest in Israel as a Jewish state in this region.

That really all depends on what you mean by a 'Jewish State', Mishei. If you mean the current ethnocracy which actively discriminates against a large proportion of its population - an indigenous group no less - on the basis of ethnicity, than you are absolutely right. If you mean a state that clings to anachronistic conceptions of ethno-national states being the 'natural' state of human politics, again, you would be right.

If you mean that I don't support the colonial settler attitude of Israeli society and the disdainful abuse and mistreatment of Palestinians in the process of creation and maintainance of the 'Jewish State', then you would be correct.

I don't like racism, and - as you say - "(a)ny
comments (I) make must be seen and understood through that prism."

[ 28 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 28 June 2003 05:12 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ray Peterson:

I agree with Mishei here. I'm just trying to figure out why there is such hostility directed towards Israel...


Call me crazy, but I fell a little hostility when hundreds of thousands of people are cleaned off of their land to make way for foreign colonists. I get a little hostile when I see an illegal military occupation reducing these same people to virtual non-human entities through inhumane violence, denigration, and ritualised abuse. I get a little hostile when I see folks justify the imprisonment of an entire people and the denial of their social, political, and economic agency, out of self-centred Eurocentrist supremacist concern for themselves. I get a little hostile when an entire people are called 'cockraoches', 'two-legged beasts', 'a cancer' and more by a long succession of leaders of a state which has it's boot on their neck. I get a little hostile when these same leaders - however absurdly and paradoxically - in the same breathe claim that the people who's neck they are standing on don't actually exist...

The question for me is not 'whither Israel'. I have no problem with the idea of a state where Jews can live in the Middle East. The question is 'what Israel' are we talking about.


quote:
and Mishei

For openly and tacitly justifying much of what is described above through his unwavering support of ethnocentric ethics. For cynically using the Holocaust as a political tool to justify the hegemony of the Jewish claim to the land in Palestine and all the crimes that were committed to ensure it. For making facile and contradictory arguments smacking of unadulterated submissiveness to an ideology that has produced nothing but untold suffering for thousands and thousands of people, both Jewish and Arab.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 June 2003 06:15 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Call me crazy, but I fell a little hostility when hundreds of thousands of people are cleaned off of their land to make way for foreign colonists.
For the record let us recall that the UN partition plan of 1947 created 2 states one of Israel one of Palestine.

Israel accepted Partition. The Arab states and what was to be Palestine did not. If they had we would, today not even be discussing this issue.

What occurred as a result of the Arab states rejection of Partition was a war. And yes during war terrible things happen. Israel displaced many Palestinians and many left of their own accord at the behest of Arab leaders who thought they would secure a quick and decisive victory over Israel. This was not to be.

The Palestinians THAT LEFT AND WERE FORCED OUT AS A RESULT OF WAR LANGUISHED IN REFUGEE CAMPS.

These camps estsablished by Jordan then became a tool, a propagandistic tool . Indeed the Jordanians and other Arab states had the resources (MONEY) to ensure a decent life for the refugees but did nothing.

The 6 day war resulted in the refugee problem basically changing hands from Jordan to Israel again as a result of war.

Clearly the Palestinians faired better under Israeli occupation than they did under the rule of Arab regimes but their lives were still horrendous and as the years went on and the Palestinians foound their voice and in some cases using terrorism and murder we "progressed" to where we found ourselves in the 1990s and Oslo.

Now there remains mixed feelings about Oslo on all sides but it was a beginning. It led to possibilities that have been argued here back and forth as to the possibility of a Palestinian state with concessions offered by Barak and Clinton at Camp David and Taba.

For reasons that have been debated here and everywhere else the consessions were rejected. They were not replaced with any other ideas by Arafat other than violence. The Israelis feeling hemmed in, dejected (after all even die hard PA leaders admitted that peace was so close)reversed themselves and elected Ariel Sharon a hard nosed rightist leader and tough as nails former general as PM. They thought he could create a wall of defence to shelter Israel from the murderous homicide/suicide bombers.

Not to be...and today we are one baby step closer to a potential ceasing of hostilities.

Problem is if the PA leadership take their cues from people with the same mindset as Courage and Al, the chances of peace are dim indeed.Israelis and Palestinians prepare to take steps to peace

[ 28 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 28 June 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Anybody who is calling for a binational state is or motivated to really destroy the Jews who live there or is ignorant especially in history.

Oh, that's nice. Anybody who is calling for a binational state is either ignorant or wants the Jews to die.

I repeat:

quote:
In 1947 the UN General Assembly resolved by a two-thirds vote to endorse the partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state (Resolution No. 181). The Palestinians did not accept that resolution, yet the partition went forward even though the General Assembly had no legal authority to divide a country especially through the process of endorsing a Resolution. The proposed partition called for 55% of the Palestinian area to be given to the Israelis, yet they comprised slightly more than 30% of the population and owned only 6% of the land. The Jewish population was composed mostly of foreign-born immigrants, only one-third of whom had acquired Palestinian citizenship.

Edited to add a link.

[ 28 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 June 2003 06:22 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 1947 the UN General Assembly resolved by a two-thirds vote to endorse the partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state (Resolution No. 181). The Palestinians did not accept that resolution, yet the partition went forward even though the General Assembly had no legal authority to divide a country especially through the process of endorsing a Resolution. The proposed partition called for 55% of the Palestinian area to be given to the Israelis, yet they comprised slightly more than 30% of the population and owned only 6% of the land. The Jewish population was composed mostly of foreign-born immigrants, only one-third of whom had acquired Palestinian citizenship.
No one has explained to me why after a UN vote on partition of land held historically at that time by Britain, why the UN did not have that legal right.

Just because someone writes it in a book or newspaper does not make it so. What are the authorities behind this statement?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 June 2003 06:30 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The partition resulted in extreme violence and one of the largest migrations in history. Partition deaths throughout ------- and -------- numbered between 500,000 and one million, while some ten to twelve million migrants moved across the new borders in ----and ------In addition, tens of thousands of girls and women were raped and/or abducted.39 Violence was the most dramatic repercussion of partition, but the boundary award contributed to other disruptions: long-term border tensions, infrastructure problems, and the lasting conflict over------

Seems as though partition causes probelems wiorl wide.

What countries and what part of the wrold is being referred to here. Tha naswer may surprise you.

Check the URL below for the full story.

The 1947 Partition


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 28 June 2003 06:33 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And...the point? Partition causes problems? I think we knew that.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 28 June 2003 06:50 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
And...the point? Partition causes problems? I think we knew that.
The point isSmith that while there are immense problems with the Palestinian/Israeli issue and over 3000 needless deaths have ocurred...look at the numbers of deaths in the India/Pakistan partition....over one MILLION. This still rages today and has the potential to become a nuclear conflagration. Yet the world has turned a blind eye. Israel/Palestine draws us all like moths to the flame yet the real flame the real possibility of nuclear war that will engage us all is almost ignored. Sad really.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 28 June 2003 06:51 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, then, why do you post so much on Israel and so little on India/Pakistan?
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 28 June 2003 06:53 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
For the record let us recall that the UN partition plan of 1947 created 2 states one of Israel one of Palestine.

Actually, it didn't 'create' anything. It set out a series of suggestions for how the crisis might be resolved. There was nothing 'binding' about it, it was only good if both sides accepted it.

quote:
Israel accepted Partition. The Arab states and what was to be Palestine did not. If they had we would, today not even be discussing this issue...What occurred as a result of the Arab states rejection of Partition was a war.

Nice lapse. In between what you got was Haganah and Jewish fascist terrorists like LEHI and Irgun running to grab every hill they could, in EXCESS of what was granted to them in the Partition Plan and removing many of the Arab inhabitants considered 'hostile' as they went. All this BEFORE a single Arab troop set foot into any territory allotted to Israel by the Partition. So you are trying to have it both ways - you say that Israel 'accepted' Partition and fault the Arabs for not doing so, however, in deed, the Israelis did not 'accept partition' and sought to create a territorial fait accomplit.

quote:
And yes during war terrible things happen.

You are so full of shit, Mishei. Would that I said this about the treatment of Jews during WWII: "Well, terrible things happen in war...."; you'd be calling for the Hate Crimes Police to come to my door and proclaiming my affinity for neo-nazi antisemitism from the hilltops...See why your ethics can't be taken seriously?


quote:
Israel displaced many Palestinians

This is a crime. The 'Original Sin', if you will.

quote:
and many left of their own accord at the behest of Arab leaders who thought they would secure a quick and decisive victory over Israel. This was not to be.

This canard has been destroyed by any number of historians. Erskine Childers has taken this 'radio broadcast' myth to task. But either way, it doesn't matter because international law recognises the right of all displaced people to return to their homes after hostilities cease. No one can 'give up' this right by following (phantom) orders from anyone to leave....

quote:
These camps estsablished by Jordan then became a tool, a propagandistic tool . Indeed the Jordanians and other Arab states had the resources (MONEY) to ensure a decent life for the refugees but did nothing.

So Israel can ethnically cleanse it's territory, defy international law and not allow DPs back in, and Jordan is supposed to be kind enough to clean up after them - in effect accepting and legitimating the first crime? What kind of ridiculous logic is that?

You aren't worth the time today...

[ 28 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 28 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 28 June 2003 07:16 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Nice lapse. In between what you got was Haganah and Jewish fascist terrorists like LEHI and Irgun running to grab every hill they could, in EXCESS of what was granted to them in the Partition Plan and removing many of the Arab inhabitants considered 'hostile' as they went. So you are trying to have it both ways - you say that Israel 'accepted' Partition and fault the Arabs for not doing so, however, in deed, the Israelis did not 'accept partition' and sought to create a territorial [I}fait accomplit[/i].

Yes some crimes were committed but it is nothing compared to what the palistinian terrorist are doing to day most of the Jewish attacks were against military forces including British as well they were many attack even back then by palistian terrorist against unarmed jewish women and children.

The majority of the land was brought fairly and squarely.

quote:
Israel displaced many Palestinians
This is a crime.
and many left of their own accord at the behest of Arab leaders who thought they would secure a quick and decisive victory over Israel. This was not to be.

I believe the latter part of your quote is what displaced more Palestinians then the Jews. Meaning the other Arab nations in the region are just as responsible for the suffering if not more then the Jews.

quote:
This canard has been destroyed by any number of historians. Erskine Childers has taken this 'radio broadcast' myth to task. In fact, in some cases, Israeli trucks drove through Arab neighbourhoods, impersonating representatives of the Arab states, and warned Arabs to leave as quickly as they could because the Arab armies were coming But either way, it doesn't matter - international law recognises the right of all displaced people to return to their homes after hostilities cease. No one can 'give up' this right by following (phantom) orders from anyone to leave....

Possibly sounds a little like a conspiracy theory to me however like I said the other Arab countries are just as responsible if not more. People shold never leave a place under intimidation the question is who was really behind the intimidation. The people responsible should be the ones fixing this mess.

quote:
These camps estsablished by Jordan then became a tool, a propagandistic tool . Indeed the Jordanians and other Arab states had the resources (MONEY) to ensure a decent life for the refugees but did nothing.
So Israel can ethnically cleanse it's territory, defy international law and not allow DPs back in, and Jordan is supposed to be kind enough to clean up after them - in effect accepting the first crime? What kind of ridiculous logic is that?

As already said they are equally responsible and therefore should equally pay the burden. As well this is almost the only place in the world where refugees aren't accommodated at all. Canada accommodates all the refuges that come into it regardless of the reasons and so do most other countries including Israel surprisingly. The real crime against humanity now is that Israel's neighbors use these refugees' tools. If they wanted to destroy Israel then they should go ahead and use any means they feel like and expect full responsibility for any outcome but using women and children as pawn is unjustifiable under any circumstance.

As well the international law states in these matters that displaced people can return to their homes or depending on the situation can be compensated.

[ 28 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 28 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 28 June 2003 10:06 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
[QB] posted 28 June 2003 07:16

[quote]Yes some crimes were committed but it is nothing compared to what the palistinian terrorist are doing to day


When did Palestinian terrorists manage to remove hundreds of thousands of people from their homes? Moreover, there were plenty of massacres and smaller incidents of Arabs being killed by Haganah and Jewish irregular forces. Notably at Deir Yassin, where approx. 200 people were killed in one day.

quote:
most of the Jewish attacks were against military forces including British

You need a history lesson, the British were already out. Second, the Palestinians didn't HAVE a military. And what irregular forces they could muster were not formidable. Still further, none of this excuses the attacks that were carried out against civilians.


quote:
I believe the latter part of your quote is what displaced more Palestinians then the Jews.

I don't have time to give you a history lesson tonight. Suffice it to say that Israeli Army intelligence documents suggest that at least 75% of those Arabs that left did so due to Israeli forces. These same documents estimate that around 5% left because of any impetus from Arab armies or officials. Please have a look into sources such as the History of the Haganah, various publications by Benny Morris, Avi Shlaim, and others.


quote:
Possibly sounds a little like a conspiracy theory

Possibly (probably) because you are under-read on the subject.

quote:
People shold never leave a place under intimidation the question is who was really behind the intimidation. The people responsible should be the ones fixing this mess.

Please note the above. Please also research something called Plan Dalet.


quote:
As already said they are equally responsible and therefore should equally pay the burden.

They are not equally responsible. The majority of the Palestinians in question were inhabitants of areas where Arab armies never set foot during the 1948 war. Please, go read up.

quote:
The real crime against humanity now is that Israel's neighbors use these refugees' tools.

Right. Not the daily bombings and murders of civilians. Not the daily curfews, checkpoints, random harrassment; not the daily destruction of homes and businesses; not the ever-expanding settlements; not that damned wall.


quote:
As well the international law states in these matters that displaced people can return to their homes or depending on the situation can be compensated.

Israel has made no effort to do either.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 29 June 2003 01:08 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And yes during war terrible things happen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are so full of shit, Mishei. Would that I said this about the treatment of Jews during WWII: "Well, terrible things happen in war...."; you'd be calling for the Hate Crimes Police to come to my door and proclaiming my affinity for neo-nazi antisemitism from the hilltops...See why your ethics can't be taken seriously?


No you are the one that is not only full of shit but you are trying to wrongfully smear me. I said ..during war terrible things happen. You would claim Would that I said this about the treatment of Jews during WWII: "Well, terrible things happen in war...."; . I didnt mention any one group as a matter of fact i was speaking in that post of all victims of war. You of course target JEWS. You just don't get it that's the sad thing.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 June 2003 02:07 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No Mish, you said "terrible things happen in war" as a means to excuse the crimes of your righteous IOF.

Courage is right, you aren't worth the effort.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 29 June 2003 03:04 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Courage

1. You assume things about me you know nothing yes I admit that I have what to learn but know enough to know that some of your points are untrue even though you have proven yourself hardly worth the breath yet I'm still a believer in true peace so I will make an effort point out the biggest mistakes.

2. and most disturbing of all the way you put things you don't care about human rights your not learning from history you just want to turn the wheel back and you couldn't care less about the lives of the Jews if you cared you'd care about both. I don't see why not why not we can't be both pro Palestine and Israel. If I could you an anti-smite that would prove I'm ignorant since Arabs are smites too but your claims are on the verge of anti-Jewish


Lets start I'm not going to go into all the points so I'll just stick to the ones that are most clear. I could also look up radical claims from the Israeli side but I'm a little more open minded then that I know that the responsibility for many of the atrocities is equally shared.

quote:

As well the international law states in these matters that displaced people can return to their homes or depending on the situation can be compensated.

[quote]Israel has made no effort to do either
[/quote]

I can find you many sources that Barak was willing to compensate Palestinian refugees.

The Gaurdian this should be a reliable enough source for you.


quote:
You need a history lesson, the British were already out. Second, the Palestinians didn't HAVE a military. And what irregular forces they could muster were not formidable. Still further, none of this excuses the attacks that were carried out against civilians.

When all these so called Jewish terrorist groups were around the British were still there. You should know as well a I that the British only left in 1948 hence the Jews declared independence. I don't deny that these terrorist groups committed some acts which were criminal however after 1948 most of the groups were eradiated by the IDF (remember Altelna for example). Before 1948 the Jews were about as well equipped as the Arabs so don't give me any of that bullshit that the Arabs were innocent and didn't have a chance if ever anyone wanted a fair fight that was the time maybe the Jews were a little bit luckier or perhaps smarter (This has nothing to do with race I do believe all human beings are equal). Before 1948 there was chaos and many different groups Arab and Jewish some justified some not just like they are in Palestine today if these Arab groups would amalgamate into one maybe there be less of problem today but this suited Arafat just fine he could blind eye and find excuses not to make peace and kill Jews his hope for conquering Israel hasn't quite died yet.

quote:
Right. Not the daily bombings and murders of civilians. Not the daily curfews, checkpoints, random harrassment; not the daily destruction of homes and businesses; not the ever-expanding settlements; not that damned wall.

I don't support the current Israeli actions nor Sharon's wall I would support a temporary wall along the 67 or even 48 lines. I do admit sadly that Arabs that live in Israel aren't quite equal to Jews, this wrong and has to be fixed. However compared to Palestinians in Lebanese refugee camps or many that live in Jordan or other places they live like kings. In the west bank suffer a lot too and this has to be fixed and this also has to be fixed yet it is still not as bad as in other places. There is an effort to get them medicine and build educational institutions and Many people in the west bank and Gaza even go to work in Israel. That the PA decides to get themselves fancy cars and mansions, that they invest it in institutions that incite hatred or to give it to terrorist groups instead of investing the majority in bulding a stainable infrastructure is Israel's fault right??? Now maybe they aren't even equipped because Israel hasn't given them enough or is stopping them for doing so maybe also true but I'm sure they could mange there funds better then giving it to terrorist groups.

Now back to places like Lebanon Palestinian refugees are not allowed to work in most jobs, go to school, own land or have access to healthcare. Even if Israel responsible, to do nothing about this and excuse it by saying Israel should pay for it, just shows how sick and inhumane you are and that really couldn't care less about the suffering of the Palestinian refugees it proves that all you care about is destroying Israel and you will go to any length to prove that yourself justified and the Israeli Jews as evil.

So until you can comprehend the points and stop excusing the injustices of either side the other points you pointed are irrelevant doesn't matter how accurate they are. It's not a matter of who has the right or who isn't, it's a matter of insuring the well being of people individuals we are talking about here but you couldn't care could you? All you want to do is prove the point that Israel is bad.

I can say both are bad but you can't comprehend that the responsibility is equal that it takes 2 to make peace or war.

Before you try and teach me history open your mind a little and take a good look at the bigger picture.

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 29 June 2003 09:56 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
No Mish, you said "terrible things happen in war" as a means to excuse the crimes of your righteous IOF.

Courage is right, you aren't worth the effort.


Im not worth the effort??? BWAHAHAHAHA....I love people who think their shit don't stink


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 29 June 2003 10:46 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Smith:

quote:
the General Assembly had no legal authority to divide a country especially through the process of endorsing a Resolution

Now you stuck your foot your mouth. What you going to support only the UN resolutions you like? Now that is hypocritical biased and double standard. Had it been passed by the security or the by the permanent members I could maybe accept that those resolutions aren't legal but one that the General assembly puts forth???

Either the UN has legitimacy or not. I've been arguing for a longtime that the UN is failing and it has nothing to do with American bullying. Either you're going to listen to resolution put forth or not but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 29 June 2003 11:32 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Smith I would also like to point this out from the article you sent.

This is also inaccurate

quote:
In addition, the territory allocated to the Jews comprised the coastal plain from Akka to Ashdod and other fertile lands. The Palestinians were left with mainly mountainous areas and arid regions.

According to the 1947 partition

The Jews got:

*In the north Hula valley which was mainly swaps the Jews dried up the swaps in order to make it fertile this has caused some ecological problems not exactly a smart move I must admit.

*Some of the Carmel (Rugged Mountains).

*Tele-Aviv mainly just sand.

*And the majority of what the Jews got was the Negev desert I thin "desert explains everything.

So the Jews didn't really get a great deal.

The Palestinians got:

*The Gaza strip is quite fertile that, that some source sadly both Israeli and Palestinian don't keep it fertile is a problem.

*The west bank north of the Judean desert is pretty good land. (a fairly large amount is north of Judea (the is Samaria))

*And they also got according to the 1948 partition the Galilee probably which is probably some of the best land in Israel.

so the only real decent piece of land the Jews got was the Sharon valley between Haifa and Tele-aviv

Here is a map for you:

UN plan map

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 29 June 2003 12:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So Smith who do you believe, Justice or AlQuBong...???
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 June 2003 01:28 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

*psst Mish.....rehab*


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 29 June 2003 01:49 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So Smith who do you believe, Justice or AlQuBong...???

I don't see why you should care.

Anyway, what Justice was refuting was from Tikkun, and it was from a link I posted. al-Qa'bong doesn't enter into it.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 29 June 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
[QB]Courage

1. You assume things about me you know nothing


Quite the contrary, my arguments were based on what you said. No assumption was made.

quote:
2. and most disturbing of all the way you put things you don't care about human rights

How so? Interestingly, you are partially right, but in a way that you don't realise. I think that a lot of our talk about 'human rights' etc. is a load of Eurocentrist B.S. used to justify ever-expanding imperialism. Moreover, I find many of the catagories of human rights thinking to be utterly cynical and based on no true conception of human Good. They are largely based in a conception of what is negative. For a primer on how I look at the human rights crowd, I recommend Alain Badiou's 'Ethics: An Essay on the Understanding of Evil'. I have some qualms with his matrix, but, his dismantling of our common 'human rights' ideology is stunning and poignant. The main point on which Badiou and I agree is that our conception of humanity is too narrowly and negatively defined. As such we get into a kind of 'heirarchizing' of suffering which tends to end in ridiculous moral 'mathematics' that serves neither 'humans' nor 'right'....

quote:
your not learning from history you just want to turn the wheel back

Wrong. I know enough about history to know that full reconciliations are what is necessary for a true growth in a society. Until Israeli society fully accepts the gravity of their crimes against the Palestinians, and the reality of their colonial enterprise, no true peace and understanding will arise and Jews will remain beleagured by their neighbours.

quote:
and you couldn't care less about the lives of the Jews if you cared you'd care about both.

Again, you miss the point. I care very much for Jews. 'Tough love' is hard to take sometimes. Along with great Jewish thinkers like Arendt, HaAm, Buber, Einstein, Magnes and others, I believe that the best thing for Jews is not to continue driving for the creation of a segregationist ethnocracy built on ethnic cleansing and military brutality. That a different and more accomodating approach is necessary. So far, no Israeli leader, nor the society that supports them has shown the courage to go in that direction. They have talked 'peace' while continually expanding their control of the bargaining chips (food, water, land, etc.) and so everyone except them can see the disingenuity of the enterprise. They have the upper hand, so the ball is in their court.

quote:
I don't see why not why not we can't be both pro Palestine and Israel.

I am, in a certain way. I think that a binational state - or better yet, a secular republic based on citizenship, not ethnicity - is the only long-term solution. A two-state solution is only a paper mache quick-fix.

quote:
If I could you an anti-smite that would prove I'm ignorant since Arabs are smites too but your claims are on the verge of anti-Jewish

Please quote me saying anything 'anti-Jewish'. Your aspersions are not unlike Mishei's - veiled attempts to appeal to some moral high ground based on a misplaced and misformed notion of 'antisemitism'. A notion created by the deliberate conflation of 'Jewishness' with the Israeli state. A notion that I reject outright both in form and content.


The rest of your piece is largely just prattle based on your idea that I am 'inhumane' for thinking that Israel should be responsible for cleaning up her mess...

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 29 June 2003 02:37 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"I can say both are bad but you can't comprehend that the responsibility is equal that it takes 2 to make peace or war."

Sorry, I don't buy into this 'conflict management' nonsense that no one is ever more responsible than anyone else for a fight. I think this kind of approach, while well-intentioned, actually leads to greater resentment.

Basic facts:

The Palestinians have not ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Jews from their homes.

The Palestinians did not get in bed with various European empires to conspire to create a European colony where an indigenous population already existed based on paliogenetic ideology of entitlement.

The Palestinians have not illegaly occupied territory and kept Jews in subhuman conditions. Palestinians have not daily destroyed the homes and businesses of Jews to make room for expanding colonial settlements based on a racist ideology.

The Palestinians do not have control over a state, a military, their own water supply, their roads, their electricity, their imports and exports, their basic movements.

The Palestinians do not have billions of dollars in military and financial support from the world's lone superpower.

For everything they have done to Jews - and there have been horrible atrocities - there is no even playing field.

Israel is in the power position, and as such has a greater ability to transform and change the current situation. There is not a power or moral equivalence at this point. You are right, I don't 'see' what you see, because what you see is a smokescreen for Israeli power. To call the two sides 'equal' in light of these basic facts is to give succour to a brutal colonial project that has sought the utter destruction of the Palestinians as cultural, social, political, and economic subjects. In short, it legitimizes the continuing 'politicide' carried out by the Israeli state and society against the Palestinians.

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 29 June 2003 02:56 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
No you are the one that is not only full of shit but you are trying to wrongfully smear me. I said ..during war terrible things happen. You would claim Would that I said this about the treatment of Jews during WWII: "Well, terrible things happen in war...."; . I didnt mention any one group as a matter of fact i was speaking in that post of all victims of war. You of course target JEWS. You just don't get it that's the sad thing.

Nice tap-dancing, did you take lessons as a child?

Second, please take some reading comprehension courses. I did not target Jews in any fashion. I wouldn't say the kind of thing you said....

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 29 June 2003 04:29 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:

I don't see why you should care.

Anyway, what Justice was refuting was from Tikkun, and it was from a link I posted. al-Qa'bong doesn't enter into it.


Which version of history do you accept???

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 29 June 2003 04:29 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

*psst Mish.....rehab*


psst Al...you first


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 29 June 2003 05:03 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Which version of history do you accept???

That's a ridiculous question.

That said, I'm more inclined to accept the arguments of people who don't try to blackmail me by suggesting that disagreeing with them means I want their people to die.

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 29 June 2003 05:14 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:

That's a ridiculous question.

That said, I'm more inclined to accept the arguments of people who don't try to blackmail me by suggesting that disagreeing with them means I want their people to die.

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


...or that you deny the Holocaust, or at least its gravity...or that you are an antisemite...or that you support terrorism...or that you, oh well, you know....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
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posted 29 June 2003 07:53 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:

That's a ridiculous question.

That said, I'm more inclined to accept the arguments of people who don't try to blackmail me by suggesting that disagreeing with them means I want their people to die.

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


That is a serious charge for you to lodge against Mischei.

I know he can be overly persistant but at least he has a passion and sensitivity to both sides.

And yes he/she is very insistant on the proper use of Nazi imagery and I am surprised of all things you would take him to task for it.

No I see your response as highly provocative, totally unecessary and terribly improper to suggest Mischei would "blackmail you. What has he threatened you with? I can find absoluitely nothing in posts here or archived.

It seems as though there is something else going on.

And also, the question was fair.


From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 29 June 2003 07:59 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I know he can be overly persistant but at least he has a passion and sensitivity to both sides.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zisel
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posted 29 June 2003 08:05 PM      Profile for Zisel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:


I do not know who you are but your post is mean and unecessary. My grandmother of blessed memory use to say (in Yiddish of course) "if you can't say something nice about somebody, don't say anything at all". I always try to think about this.

From: Florida | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 29 June 2003 10:55 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Smith:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not know who you are but your post is mean and unecessary. My grandmother of blessed memory use to say (in Yiddish of course) "if you can't say something nice about somebody, don't say anything at all". I always try to think about this.


Those are wise words your grandmother spoke. How you manage to infer "mean and unnecessary" from an icon seems to have more to do with you than with Smith.

Peace.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 29 June 2003 11:49 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My grandmother of blessed memory use to say (in Yiddish of course) "if you can't say something nice about somebody, don't say anything at all".

My grandmother, WASP though she is, has a wise saying of her own: "Quit whining."

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 12:05 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:

My grandmother, WASP though she is, has a wise saying of her own: "Quit whining."

[ 29 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]



Zisel I appreciate your intervention but one thing I have learned about Smith, neither age or experience, nor anything else means much to her.

I know she disagrees with you and has every right to voice her opinion. Yes she could have found a more respectful way of expressing herself but clearly your original intuition about her seems to be correct.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 30 June 2003 12:24 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
one thing I have learned about Smith, neither age or experience, nor anything else means much to her.

In this advanced society, stupid people often manage to stay alive for decades. Sometimes they even live long enough to fancy themselves political mavens just by virtue of not having died yet.

Present company excepted. I'm sure you've all learned from your genuinely wise grandmothers. Or Bambi. Whatever. What was that about "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all"? Surely you could have PMed Zisel with that speculative tidbit about me.

Now can we get back on topic? I'm afraid you're talking to yourself.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 June 2003 12:30 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe this is about where Mish starts calling Smith "childish."

quote:
Smith:

I don't see why you should care.

Anyway, what Justice was refuting was from Tikkun, and it was from a link I posted. al-Qa'bong doesn't enter into it.
Which version of history do you accept???


quote:
Mishei: psst Al...you first

As Smith hinted, Mish, you aren't making any sense. I had nothing to do with any "versions of history."

Have you seen any pink elephants today?

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 12:33 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Have you seen any pink elephants today?


LOL in fact I did outside the beer tent off Church st last night...honestly!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 01:22 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your mixing things up courage Israel was no superpower before 1948 and nobody was helping Israel before 1948. after 1948 the majority of radical Jewish organizations were dismantled. Did you pay attention to what I said or did you only read what you wanted?

And once again let me rephrase myself even if the Jews are 110% responsible for the suffering of all Palestinian refugees to say that the Jordanians and Lebanese should do nothing to help the suffering if the refugees because Israel is responsible and should do so first, is selfish and inhumane can it be anymore clear??? We should wait and let people suffer until those accountable fix it??? Tough love??? How can you love the Jews when aren't even willing to take basic steps to insure the basic wellbeing of the Palestinians?


It's not a matter of Justice now it's matter of urgency what needs to be done. Maybe the Jews should do it but what if they don't are you going to let the refugees suffer until God performs a miracle? Its matter of dishing out responsibility this is really a matter of accountability of getting priorities straight and doing what needs to be done first.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 01:30 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am, in a certain way. I think that a binational state - or better yet, a secular republic based on citizenship, not ethnicity - is the only long-term solution. A two-state solution is only a paper mache quick-fix.

And the right of return binational sate isn’t a quick fix??? Right??? I never said anyways that it would 100% fix all problems how ever there is a reason they call it the peace process you know there is no such thing as a quick fix. Things need to be gradual.

Once again this proves all you really want to do is punish the Jews you don't really want them to learn a lesson do you??? You don't really want them to reconcile with their neighbors and fellow country men do you???

If you did you'd say like I that the Jews in Israel will have to make major compromises but all you really want with your suggestions of a by national state and right of return is make them suffer.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 01:53 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So Israel can ethnically cleanse it's territory, defy international law and not allow DPs back in, and Jordan is supposed to be kind enough to clean up after them - in effect accepting and legitimating the first crime? What kind of ridiculous logic is that?

Here is really what started everything point is (and I don't Mishi I don’t know what his point is) that neither crime is Justified period. Punishing Israel won't make things better and wait for Israel to fix the problem is bad too.

If we turn a blind eye or try and shift the burden around well people continue to suffer we are as guilty as the original sinner.

Sort of like the US and the Taliban both were equally bad.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 01:55 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't see why you should care.
Anyway, what Justice was refuting was from Tikkun, and it was from a link I posted. al-Qa'bong doesn't enter into it.

I absolutely agree with you one this particular point but I'm still curious of your comments on my previous points.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 02:01 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One last thing for the night after going back and forth.

With this point I agree specifically to this part of statement.

quote:
Israel is in the power position, and as such has a greater ability to transform and change the current situation.

However can't be done with out cooperation.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 30 June 2003 07:48 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Zisel I appreciate your intervention but one thing I have learned about Smith, neither age or experience, nor anything else means much to her.

I know she disagrees with you and has every right to voice her opinion. Yes she could have found a more respectful way of expressing herself but clearly your original intuition about her seems to be correct.


If you feel the need to talk to another babbler in the third person, please do it by private mail.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 08:01 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, I will be pleased to do so. I would also hope such admonitions will be routinely given to ALL those who engage in third person communication on Babble. Goodness knows I see it here all the time.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 June 2003 08:10 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I suppose that's true. But in this case it was particularly annoying to me following this whole "wisdom from age and experience and wise ancestors" baloney that is being trotted out to trump arguments in a debate. And you and Zisel have a habit of talking "down" to Smith, making her age an issue. She doesn't owe you extra respect on babble because you are older than she is. Here you debate as equals, not as the wise elder to the young and inexperienced. I guess it's the condescension that got me more than anything.

Besides, every parent knows that the old, "How come you didn't tell so-and-so to do it too?" thing doesn't work. You know the answer to that - as the "older and wiser" one, isn't it up to you to lead by example? (Yes, I'm teasing.)

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 08:13 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Yes, I suppose that's true. But in this case it was particularly annoying to me following this whole "wisdom from age and experience and wise ancestors" baloney that is being trotted out to trump arguments in a debate. And you and Zisel have a habit of talking "down" to Smith, making her age an issue. She doesn't owe you extra respect on babble because you are older than she is. Here you debate as equals, not as the wise elder to the young and inexperienced. I guess it's the condescension that got me more than anything.

I have tried mightily to treat all those here as equals. Even those with whom I have immense disagreements.However rudeness and unwarranted behaviour by anyone shouldnt be tolerated.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 June 2003 08:18 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She wasn't rude. She was debating. The original quote by Smith that Zisel objected to as "rude" was a fair comment by Smith in the midst of a debate. It seems to me that these little interludes over politeness and decorum always come up right when we get into the thick of debate. I would appreciate it if discussions were not sidetracked in that way, especially by condescending posts about how little Smith "respects her elders". She is not here to respect her elders, she is here to debate.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 08:28 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
She wasn't rude. She was debating. The original quote by Smith that Zisel objected to as "rude" was a fair comment by Smith in the midst of a debate. It seems to me that these little interludes over politeness and decorum always come up right when we get into the thick of debate. I would appreciate it if discussions were not sidetracked in that way, especially by condescending posts about how little Smith "respects her elders". She is not here to respect her elders, she is here to debate.
Since you insist in carrying this out here I respectfully disagree. Smith was being rude and it had nothing to do with debate. When she tells fellow Babblers to "quit whining" that is rude and unecessary.

Now I agree that Zisel probably didnt have to intervene in the way she did, however, she was responding to what she read and did so in a respectful manner. Smith's response was uncalled for.

There are a number of babblers here who habitually critisize fellow babblers for rude behaviour. Yet they are rarely confronted. Why so selective?

I am prepared to discuss this further in IMs if you wish.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 June 2003 08:34 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, I got your private mail after I responded in this thread. Yes, we can carry it on privately.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 30 June 2003 09:59 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

I have tried mightily to treat all those here as equals.


Best laugh of the day so far. And oh, Mishei, we do all so appreciate the effort. It must be soooo hard.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 30 June 2003 10:21 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:


Best laugh of the day so far. And oh, Mishei, we do all so appreciate the effort. It must be soooo hard.



Skdadl, as I urged Michelle so I urge you, if you have anything of a personal nature to address to me feel free to do so via PM.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 30 June 2003 10:51 AM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

I have tried mightily to treat all those here as equals. Even those with whom I have immense disagreements.However rudeness and unwarranted behaviour by anyone shouldnt be tolerated.

Mishei, my limited observation of your posting leads me to believe that you often are better then many when it comes to addressing adversaries. I am cautious about making public statements about behavioural standards, lest suddenly I find those standards applied to me with less-than-desired results.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged

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