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Author Topic: HaMifkad HaLeumi (This is how to make peace)
Justice
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posted 27 June 2003 04:15 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Statement of principles

Sari Nusseibeh(president of Al Quds University in Jerusalem, who has also held key positions in Palestinian politics.)in the Israeli version of the site said :

quote:
The Israeli's will have to give up the dream on Schem and Hebron and the Palistinians will have to give the dream of Hiafa and Accre


Additional info

I support this 110% but if other Babblers can't accept this initiative we're in a sorry state.


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paxamillion
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posted 27 June 2003 04:20 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I fail to see what difference it makes if babblers agree. What matters is if the people of Palestine and Isreal agree.
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Justice
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posted 27 June 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're mostly right but many rabblers are representative of the respective populations..
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paxamillion
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posted 27 June 2003 04:48 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When were they elected?
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Justice
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posted 27 June 2003 07:21 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I mean they are a nice sample
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Mishei
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posted 27 June 2003 09:16 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sari Nusseibah is a visionary who has been shunted aside by the mainstream it seems within the PA. This is sad because Nusseibah's dream is pretty well acceptable, I believe by many Israelis. I certainly support it.

How about you Al, Smith, Skdadl, Michelle et al...do you support it?

[ 27 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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WingNut
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posted 27 June 2003 11:30 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wasn't Sari Nusseibah jailed by Israel?

I see three problems with his statement of principles. It leaves a demilitarized Palestine (a good idea) at the mercy of a militarized Israel. It fails to address the primary issue of water resources and Israel will never leave the West Bank voluntarily.


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Justice
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posted 28 June 2003 06:49 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I asked anyone who real wants peace and has an Israeli or Palestinian ID number to please sign the above petition
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Mishei
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posted 30 June 2003 04:39 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess these terrorists had to get just one more murder in there before signing.

Just one more murder


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skdadl
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posted 30 June 2003 04:46 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peace to Christo.

But as the article makes clear, and as even Sharon (!) accepts, the killing seems to be the work of some loose cannons -- which, sadly, we are going to have to accept will be lurching about the main decks of all ships for some time to come.

Time for some stiff spines, eh? Especially among those with the greatest power.


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josh
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posted 30 June 2003 04:46 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Meanwhile, "road map" or no "road map," the Israeli land grab continues unabated. As does Sharon's plan for a "bantustan" state:

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/7/gorenberg-g.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 04:49 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Instead of complaining go out get anyone who has authority to sign the petition that means all people who have Israel ID's or ID's from the west bank or Gaza. It is people who make the difference not governments or radicals.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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skdadl
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posted 30 June 2003 04:53 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
Instead of complaining go out get anyone who has authority to sign the petition that means all people who have Israel ID's or ID's from the west bank or Gaza. It is people who make the difference not governments or radicals.

[ 30 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]



Well, um, no. It does not appear to be "people" who make the difference. It is "people who have Israel ID's or ID's from the west bank or Gaza."


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Justice
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posted 30 June 2003 05:00 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They are the people who the situation really affects. Maybe you misunderstood me and thought I was being racist. The ID's includes all Jews and Arabs of that region of legal voting age. It asks for ID's in order to prevent people from signing it multiple times. To allow that would be unfair and undemocratic.

If you'd like a little more detail I don't know if you are aware. The ID cards are blue if you are from Israel orange if you are from the west bank and green if your from Gaza it's a matter of organizing things not segregating or being racist.


I'm just not clear what your point or what exactly is your concern


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satana
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posted 02 July 2003 04:11 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
MEMORANDUM CONCERNING PUBLIC OPINION ABOUT THE NUSSEIBEH-AYALON POSITION (excerpts)

“We Palestinians, the undersigned, reaffirm our right to return to our homes from which we were displaced in 1948, just as we have reaffirmed this right throughout the past 54 years of exile. We reaffirm that the right of return is a basic human right as set forth in international law and UN General Assembly Resolution 194. Inherent in the right of return is the right to housing and property restitution. State succession or occupation does not extinguish these rights.

We reaffirm that the right of return is an individual and collective right. The right of return is non-negotiable. Governments or other second parties cannot waive or extinguish the right of return.

We therefore condemn efforts by Sari Nusseibeh, […] to cede the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes of origin. We also condemn his latest public statement, prepared in concert with Ami Ayalon, the former head of the Israeli intelligence service, which unequivocally calls upon Palestinian refugees to waive their right to return to their homes, while recognizing the historical right of the ‘Jewish people’ in Palestine. […]

The Nusseibeh-Ayalon position is dangerous because it grants Israel impunity for war crimes, including mass expulsion and population transfer, as set forth in the Fourth Geneva Convention, and violates basic principles set forth in international law, UN resolutions and decisions adopted by the Palestinian National Council.

We reaffirm our right of return. Those who call upon us to cede our basic rights do not express the legitimate national interests of the Palestinian people; moreover, we do not consider them as belonging to the Palestinian people.”
Signatories

1. Palestinian Prisoner’s Society, head office, Bethlehem.
2. Al-Awda Charitable Society for Refugees in the Bethlehem Governorate.
3. Popular Service Committees in the West Bank Refugee Camps.
4. The National Charitable Society-Deheisheh Refugee Camp.
5. Palestinian National and Islamic Emergency Committee-Bethlehem.
6. Palestinian Teachers Movement, Hebron office
7. High Committee of Palestinian Students, Hebron
8. Popular Service Committee, Samm’o, Hebron
9. The Samm’o Municipality, Hebron.
10. Ibn Sina Cultural Center, Samm’o, Hebron.
11. General Union of Palestinian Students
12. Fatah Movement, Southern West Bank
13. Popular Service Committee, Doura, Hebron
14. Samm’o Cultural Center, Hebron
15. Fatah Movement, Samm’o, Hebron
16. Samm’o Youth Center, Hebron
17. Samm’o Agricultural Cooperation Society, Hebron.
18. Shabiba Movement, Hebron University.
19. The Committee for the Twinship of French Cities with Palestinian Refugee Camps
20. Al-'Arroub Youth Activity Center, Hebron.
21. Fatah Movement, al-'Arroub Refugee Camp, Hebron.
22. Popular Service Committee, al-'Arroub Refugee Camp, Hebron
23. Charitable Committee, al-'Arroub Refugee Camp, Hebron.
24. The Committee for the Protection of the Environment and the Landscape, al-‘Arroub Refugee Camp, Hebron.
25. Fatah Movement, Deir Samet, Nablus.
26. Committee for the Defense of the Palestinian Refugee Rights, Nablus
27. Yaffa Cultural Center, Balata Refugee Camp, Nablus.
28. Fatah Movement, Deheisheh Refugee Camp, Bethlehem.
29. IBDA’A Center, Deheisha Refugee Camp, Bethlehem.
30. Lajee Cultural Center, 'Aida Refugee Camp, Bethlehem.
31. Al-Rowwad Theater Group, 'Aida Refugee Camp, Bethlehem.
32. Popular Service Committee, 'Aida Refugee Camp, Bethlehem.
33. BADIL Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights, Bethlehem.
34. Popular Service Committee, al-'Azza Refugee Camp, Bethlehem.
35. Follow-up Committee for Southern West Bank Camp Affairs
36. Popular Committee in Support of Prisoners of Freedom, Bethlehem.
37. Society for the Defense of the Internally Displaced in Israel (Soliman Fahmawi).
38. Executive Office of the Popular Service Committees (Abdullah Alwaleed), Gaza.
39. Union of the Youth Activity Centers-Palestine Refugee Camps, (Jamal Abu Habal), Gaza.
40. Union of the Youth Activity Centers-Palestine Refugee Camps (Wajih Atallah), West Bank.
41. Union of the Women Activity Centers (Rifa’a Abu Rish), West Bank.
42. Fatah Movement-Dora, Hebron.
43. Fatah Movement-Sa’eer, Hebron.
44. Palestinian Farmers’ Union –Toubass, Nablus
45. Al-Sourief Municipality, Hebron.
46. Sa’eer Sport’s Club, Hebron.

Jordan

47. Head of al-Rowad Club - Hassan Hassanain. Jordan.
48. Members of the High Committee for the Defense of the Palestinian Refugee Right of Return.Jordan
49. Head and members of al-Mahatta Youth club. Jordan.
50. General Assembly members of Baqa’a R.C Youth Club. Jordan.
51. Popular Service Committee- Baqa’a R.C. Jordan.
52. Former Head and members of Baqa’a Youth Club. Jordan.
53. Head of Karmel Youth Club-Martyr Azmi R.C. Jordan.
54. Head of al-Watan Youth Club-Russeifa. Jordan.
55. Head and members of Popular Committee to Resist Normalization with the Enemy/Zarqa. Jordan.
56. Club of Iraqi Universities Graduates. Jordan
57. Head of Al-Awda R.C Youth Club-Zarqa. Jordan.
58. Union Collation Committee/Irbid-Jordan.
59. Union of Women/Irbid-Jordan.
60. Committee for the Defense of the Right of return/Jarash-Jordan.
61. Al-Aqsa Youth Club/Sof R.C-Jordan.
62. Jarash Cultural Forum-jordan.
63. Union of Women/Zarqa-Jordan.
64. Union of Jordanian Writers/Zarqa-Jordan.
65. Gaza Youth Club/Jarash R.C-Jordan.


Lebanon

66. ‘Aidon Group.
67. Association Najdeh.
68. Arab Resource Center for Popular Arts.
69. Beit Atfal al-Sumoud.
70. Children and Youth Center-Shatilla R.C
71. Forum of NGOs in Lebanon.
72. Ghassan Kanafni Cultural Foundation.
73. Inaash-Association for the Development of Palestinian Camps.
74. KG resource and Training Center.
75. Norwegian peoples’ Aid-Lebanon.
76. Popular Aid for Relief and Development.


Syria

77. ‘Aiduon Group.


Europe

78. Al-'Awda-Palestine Right to Return Coalition Europe.
79. Al-'Awda-UK


North America

80. Palestinian Right to Return Coalition (Al-Awda)

[ 02 July 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 02 July 2003 04:24 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More on Nusseibeh-Ayalon: “The So-called People's Campaign”
By Adli Sadeq, Al-Hayat al-Jadida, 8 June 2003

quote:
I have received several emails from some of those whose names were mentioned on the list of signatories to the so-called 'Destination Map' launched by a circle of people who has remained anonymous. In a full-page advertisement published in Al-Hayat Al-Jadida [and the two other major local Palestinian papers, al-Quds and Al-Ayyam] on Thursday, 5 June 2003, these people define themselves as 'the People's Campaign for Democracy and Peace.’ The people who wrote to me said they were surprised to find their signatures on a matter they had not been consulted on. One of them said that his signature might have been obtained via a third party providing charity, assistance or another service. Another Palestinian said that he was trapped, because he cannot afford the cost of the press announcement [approximately US $100] that would allow him to retract his name falsely published!

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Justice
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posted 02 July 2003 04:13 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Satana

I see where this is going already and I'm very eager to start this discussion all over again one never knows what he may learn the second or third time around. Maybe you still have something to teach maybe you could learn something from me. I hope this is mutual and all in good intentions

But before we start could please answer the following:

Assuming the Israeli's are 1000% responsible for the suffering of the Palestinian refugees is O.K. that Jordan, Lebanon and the rest of the world stand back and do nothing well the Palestinians suffer indefinitely in places like Jordan Lebanon just because Israel should pay up first?

Note we don't know how long this will take.


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Smith
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posted 02 July 2003 09:17 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't you mean 100%?

I wouldn't make such an absolute statement in any case. However, I'd say there's a limit on what Jordan, Lebanon, etc. can do - if Israel has blocked off the roads and cut the West Bank into pieces, more money's ultimately not going to help much. And allowing Palestinians to immigrate, well, that's fine, but what if they don't want to leave their homes?


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Justice
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posted 02 July 2003 09:52 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
smith just wanted to tell you to check your private mail. I didn't want to give a public response until I get a response from Santna. I wanted to see first what he/she thinks
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satana
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posted 03 July 2003 08:52 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice, I think our differences are too fundamental to discuss Israel/Palestine constructively.

But just to make my position clear to others in the forum:
All refugees need protection until its safe for them to return to their original homes.
Palestinian refugee rights have nothing to do any political deals in the region. Europe and the US allow their Arab clients to abuse the Palestinian refugees situation to prop up their legitimacy and recieve financial compensation. This includes the PA who use refugee rights as bargaining chips to gain power and funding. The right of refugees to return to their original homes is inalienable - they belong to each individual refugee. No organization or government can take it away, and no agreement trading away this basic human right is valid to begin with.

So long as Israel has a Zionist government Palestinians will never be safe in their homeland. When an authority that can protect the equal rights of Israelis and Palestinian refugees is in place, then, and only then, can a real peace process begin. Until then, Israel, Britain, the US and UN all have a responsibility to protect the Palestinian's rights and help them get on with their lives wherever they may be.

Creating another corrupt, authoritarian regime specifically for the oppression of Palestinians in the Middle-east may bring some short-term stability to the region - it may be better than Zionist occupation, but its no way to protect refugees nor would it move towards ending the conflict. It would only be another distraction from the roots of the Middle-east's problems.

[ 03 July 2003: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 03 July 2003 11:45 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[quote ]All refugees need protection until its safe for them to return to their original homes. Palestinian refugee rights have nothing to do any political deals in the region. Europe and the US allow their Arab clients to abuse the Palestinian refugees situation to prop up their legitimacy and recieve financial compensation. This includes the PA who use refugee rights as bargaining chips to gain power and funding.[/quote]

this is the answer I was looking for. I must say this answer has given me a little more positive feelings. This was my problem a lot of people ignore this; anyone who ignores this fact really isn't for human rights at all.

quote:
Creating another corrupt, authoritarian regime specifically for the oppression of Palestinians in the Middle-east may bring some short-term stability to the region - it may be better than Zionist occupation, but its no way to protect refugees nor would it move towards ending the conflict. It would only be another distraction from the roots of the Middle-east's problems.[/

I agree with you. This is actually one of the things that upset me the most about all the conflicts in the middle-east. The US supported the Taliban and Saddam. The Israeli's supported the Hamas at one time. Why because of a stupid Philosophy that says the enemy of your enemy is your friend. I believe you got a problem you got to fix it yourself. but what do you think the root is what other alternatives are there?

quote:
So long as Israel has a Zionist government Palestinians will never be safe in their homeland. When an authority that can protect the equal rights of Israelis and Palestinian refugees is in place, then, and only then, can a real peace process begin. Until then, Israel, Britain, the US and UN all have a responsibility to protect the Palestinian's rights and help them get on with their lives wherever they may be.

1) what about Israeli rights? Do you think it possible for there to be a regime that would really protect both?

2) Please don't talk about Zionism in such a derogatory way, there are many different philosophies and streams of Zionism you can pick which ever ones you want to choose and be critical of them but you can't put them all in the same boat. If you'd like I could forward you info about the different kinds.

quote:
The right of refugees to return to their original homes is inalienable - they belong to each individual refugee. No organization or government can take it away, and no agreement trading away this basic human right is valid to begin with.

quote:
Article 13. Universal Declaration of Human Rights
(a) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(b) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

When have the Jews ever moved freely? they came to Israel or North America because they were running away from prosecution in Europe and the mid-east. Even today people flee from Russia because the situation isn't good they many none Jewish Russians use Israel as a spring board. A lot of Jews have been running from Israel today because of the conflict. How are you going to compensate for 1000's of years of this shouldn't the Jews have same rights as the Palestinians? I think financial compensation, the right of return to Palestinians state, and to Israel on an individual basis depending on individual needs, is the logical way to do it because your never going to be able to shift things back. You need modern solution to fix today's problems. The right of the Jews to have a state of their own free from prosecution is not less important then the right of return.
It may not be valid but no agreement can be valid if it neglects the rights of others.

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satana
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posted 03 July 2003 03:46 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Do you think it possible for there to be a regime that would really protect both?
Well, if you can't even imagine that, then there's no point talking with you about it.

As for Zionism, I was only referring to those streams and philosophies that are commited to maintaining Israel as a Jewish state. I would appreciate any information about other existing kinds.


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Smith
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posted 03 July 2003 04:00 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How are you going to compensate for 1000's of years of this shouldn't the Jews have same rights as the Palestinians?

Yes. But that's exactly what they should have - the same rights.

As I've said elsewhere, I think Jewish families who had to flee Arab states when Israel was created deserve compensation for their losses. I'm not sure you can ever make up for thousands of years of persecution, and it's certainly not fair to do so on the backs of people who are not responsible for that persecution, but yes, the effort should be made.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 04 July 2003 09:19 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, if you can't even imagine that, then there's no point talking with you about it.
As for Zionism, I was only referring to those streams and philosophies that are commited to maintaining Israel as a Jewish state. I would appreciate any information about other existing kinds.

If 3.5 million Palestinians are added to the already 4.5million in Israel Gaza and the west bank there will be a Palestinian Majority meaning Israel will become a Palestinian state. Palestinians may be unique and therefore I do believe they deserve there own country and their own identity how ever they are still Arabs.
When in the history of any Arab countries have the Jews ever been treated like equals? There were times when the situation was better and time when the situation was worse. Even with the current discrimination against Israeli Arabs which is wrong, their situation is better then Jews ever had in an Arab country.
It's not fair that the Palestinians pay for the wrong doings of others therefore they need to be compensated. They also need a state of their own to avoid prosecution but after the 1000's of years of Jewish prosecution not only in Arab but a through a vast majority of the rest of the world it's about time the Jews have a state of their own.
Both Jews and Palestinians should have every right to a country of their own like any other sovereign nation. I'm not talking about segregation, I don't think the Palestinians should not have to live in encampments surrounded by Jewish settlements; the land needs to be divided fairly for the sake of both peoples.
Until you can comprehend that you can't prove to me that you really care about all people.


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satana
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posted 04 July 2003 06:32 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If indigenous non-Jewish people's rights are recognized in Israel they would all would become Israeli, and Israel would most likely become a pluralistic democracy.

Palestinians are not "unique". They are human beings like all others and deserve the same rights as everyone else no more, no less.
"...how ever they are still Arabs", What's that supposed to mean?

No one deserves their own country. People deserve to live in peace and security wherever they may be. Believing that the world should divided into ethnic groups living in their own seperate states is a basic racist concept. But you deny being racist. Make up your mind.

Palestinians don't suffer from persecution nor do they fear persecution any more than any other people, except maybe in Israel. Eliminating the source of that persecution is far more effective in the long-term than running away. Just because you want to live in a ghetto doesn't mean everyone wants to as well.

You're not talking about segregation, you're talking about ethnuic cleansing. No one has any right to steal other people's lands and forbid them from living there for any reason what so ever.


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 05 July 2003 12:40 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If indigenous non-Jewish people's rights are recognized in Israel they would all would become Israeli, and Israel would most likely become a pluralistic democracy.

That’s a very big it how many times in history has this transformation been successful how many countries in the world or in the middle east do you know where this exist. I'm not saying it's not possible but if it as at all to be considered it needs to be gradual won't have over night.

quote:
Palestinians are not "unique". They are human beings like all others and deserve the same rights as everyone else no more, no less.
"...how ever they are still Arabs",

It means that they are human beings and deserve to be treated as such, each human being is unique and deserves to be a free and independent individual.

quote:
"...how ever they are still Arabs

This is a mistake I should of said it more pluralistically. There would be a clash of cultures this isn't necessarily a negative thing it's not easy though it exist everywhere. There are clashes between Americans and Canadians between north Americans and Europeans, between south Americans and north Americans…etc.
Even among Jews and Jews

quote:
No one deserves their own country. People deserve to live in peace and security wherever they may be. Believing that the world should divided into ethnic groups living in their own separate states is a basic racist concept. But you deny being racist. Make up your mind.

Your being a hypocrite People deserve to roam freely but know one can offered global freedom as much as it's an Ideal. The Jews never moved around the adapted most of the time played by the rules and then by the time they got comfortable they were kicked out or persecuted.

quote:
Palestinians don't suffer from persecution nor do they fear persecution any more than any other people, except maybe in Israel. Eliminating the source of that persecution is far more effective in the long-term than running away. Just because you want to live in a ghetto doesn't mean everyone wants to as well.

That’s bullshit and you know it. Sure the Israeli's have a lot of responsibility on their hands and can be held accountable for many miss doings. But you the Palestinians live like kings in Jordan and Lebanon right???!!!

quote:
You're not talking about segregation, you're talking about ethnic cleansing. No one has any right to steal other people's lands and forbid them from living there for any reason what so ever.

I'm not the one who is trying to overwhelm anyone and trying to may make them disappear or really change much aside from the well being of others.
If there is going to be a Palestinian majority in Israel it's going to be a Palestinian state not a pluralistic one period. Once again Or you're lying to yourself or you really don't care about the rights of others.

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 05 July 2003 05:05 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
People deserve to roam freely but know one can offered global freedom as much as it's an Ideal.
Roaming? I'm talking about people already settled where they want to be.

quote:
The Jews never moved around the adapted most of the time played by the rules and then by the time they got comfortable they were kicked out or persecuted.
So what are you saying? Jews shouldn't "play by the rules"? Or Jews shouldn't be kicked out of their homes? Or both? And does the same apply to non-Jews?

quote:
But you the Palestinians live like kings in Jordan and Lebanon right???!!!
Actually, many Palestinians do live like kings in Arab autocracies. Its only those that refuse to support the ruling elite that are persecuted. Also, I'm not the Palestinians.

quote:
If there is going to be a Palestinian majority in Israel it's going to be a Palestinian state not a pluralistic one period.
You've made up your mind then? So what was all that talk about gradual change?

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Courage
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posted 05 July 2003 10:03 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:

That’s a very big it how many times in history has this transformation been successful how many countries in the world or in the middle east do you know where this exist.

Dozens. Have a look around Europe. The rise of nationalism in the late 18th and early 19th century was just such a transformation. 'Frenchmen' were of various dialects, of various regional identities, and they came to agree that they must be 'French'. Same thing in Germany, Britain, Canada, Switzerland, Australia, the United States, Italy, etc. etc. etc. There have been differing degrees of success, but the pattern is unmistakable.


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Courage
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posted 05 July 2003 10:11 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:

There would be a clash of cultures this isn't necessarily a negative thing it's not easy though it exist everywhere.[QUOTE]Originally posted by Justice:
[QB]QB]
[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding? I've walked both sides of the Green Line, and walked from the ports of Haifa to the top of Mount Carmel, and there is no massive 'cultural difference'. Hell, downtown Tel Aviv looks and feels a lot like downtown Beirut did before Israeli bombers destroyed most of it. Moreover, huge proportions of Israel's Jewish population are as 'Arab' as 'Arabs'. Hundreds of thousands of Sephardic Jews lived in Bagdhad, Morrocco, and elsewhere for hundreds, even a thousand years. They are 'Arab' in everything but name and religion. And the differences are not that big. Have a listen to Israeli pop music; the rhythms, the percussion, even the harmonic arrangements are of the Middle East - specifically, much of it is 'Arab'. Furthermore, step into a mall, say the one at the Central Bus Station in Tel Aviv or in Haifa, have a look around. Tell me if you can tell the Arab kids from the Jewish ones. You know, all the kids in their sloppy trousers, plaid shirts, all munching on Falafel from one of the dozens of Falafel kiosks....The only way you can tell a Jewish kid from the rest most of the time is if he is wearing some form of traditional garb, a Yalmulka, or in combat fatigues. In fact, going a step further, compare those kids to the one's in, say, Toronto, or Istanbul, or Amsterdam. Sure, they may have different faces, but the girls are all in tight pants and halter tops, hoop earrings, the boys in sneakers, plaid shirts, short hair with a little goatee maybe. The globalisation of culture is a fact, and this is what makes the segregationist argument in Israel seem even more absurd and anachronistic.

You are exaggerating the differences. Frankly, it's a subtly segregationist (racist?) argument that goes like this, "Oh we can NEVER live together, we are too different. And people can never get over their differences..."

Interesting that Israelis also like to point (when it is convenient) to how their society is pluralistic and has managed to assimilate people from all over the world. Why is it that the 'Arab' - is unassimilatable?

[ 05 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 05 July 2003 10:27 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oooops.

[ 05 July 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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Babbler # 3877

posted 06 July 2003 11:28 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So what are you saying? Jews shouldn't "play by the rules"? Or Jews shouldn't be kicked out of their homes? Or both? And does the same apply to non-Jews?

I'm saying it seems that what ever the Jews do no one wants them nothing will make this world satisfied so give them a place of there own and leave them be, that’s it that would be the humane thing to do

quote:
Actually, many Palestinians do live like kings in Arab autocracies. Its only those that refuse to support the ruling elite that are persecuted. Also, I'm not the Palestinians.

and what about the others?

quote:
Dozens. Have a look around Europe. The rise of nationalism in the late 18th and early 19th century was just such a transformation. 'Frenchmen' were of various dialects, of various regional identities, and they came to agree that they must be 'French'. Same thing in Germany, Britain, Canada, Switzerland, Australia, the United States, Italy, etc. etc. etc. There have been differing degrees of success, but the pattern is unmistakable.


How many have a middle eastern culture.

quote:
Are you kidding? I've walked both sides of the Green Line, and walked from the ports of Haifa to the top of Mount Carmel, and there is no massive 'cultural difference'. Hell, downtown Tel Aviv looks and feels a lot like downtown Beirut did before Israeli bombers destroyed most of it. Moreover, huge proportions of Israel's Jewish population are as 'Arab' as 'Arabs'. Hundreds of thousands of Sephardic Jews lived in Bagdhad, Morrocco, and elsewhere for hundreds, even a thousand years. They are 'Arab' in everything but name and religion. And the differences are not that big. Have a listen to Israeli pop music; the rhythms, the percussion, even the harmonic arrangements are of the Middle East - specifically, much of it is 'Arab'. Furthermore, step into a mall, say the one at the Central Bus Station in Tel Aviv or in Haifa, have a look around. Tell me if you can tell the Arab kids from the Jewish ones. You know, all the kids in their sloppy trousers, plaid shirts, all munching on Falafel from one of the dozens of Falafel kiosks....The only way you can tell a Jewish kid from the rest most of the time is if he is wearing some form of traditional garb, a Yalmulka, or in combat fatigues.

You are only looking on the outside I've lived there many years and in North America. I can tell you transferring from one culture to the other is difficult not just for me for most people it's not Jewish vs Arab. It's middle eastern vs American vs European. In Israel there has been a lot immigration from Ethiopia and Russia. The first for years it is very difficult.

And yes they all look and act the same. The Jews in Germany look like the Germans most of them weren't religious and they were still persecuted in Baghdad and Morocco and Spain the Jews also look like the natives and they were still persecuted.

quote:
You are exaggerating the differences. Frankly, it's a subtly segregationist (racist?) argument that goes like this, "Oh we can NEVER live together, we are too different. And people can never get over their differences..."

I never said never, I said it takes time it needs to happen gradually it won't happen by forcing Israel to accommodate them. Making demands to help and accommodate on a limited basis not even Canada which has many more resources and much more land could absorb that much all at once and still stand on its own to feet.
.

quote:
In fact, going a step further, compare those kids to the one's in, say, Toronto, or Istanbul, or Amsterdam. Sure, they may have different faces, but the girls are all in tight pants and halter tops, hoop earrings, the boys in sneakers, plaid shirts, short hair with a little goatee maybe. The globalisation of culture is a fact, and this is what makes the segregationist argument in Israel seem even more absurd and anachronistic

Yes we are all the same we all get along here that is very nice and is the way it should be. there is a lot of mixing but not quite complete.

We still have Italian neighborhoods, Chinese, Korean, Jewish, Russian, Arab etc…
They are all in there own little neighborhoods still.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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Babbler # 3192

posted 06 July 2003 12:51 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm saying it seems that what ever the Jews do no one wants them nothing will make this world satisfied so give them a place of there own and leave them be, that’s it that would be the humane thing to do

I think it's very sad that you feel that way.

And as a WASP who grew up sharing classrooms, lessons, birthday parties, and summer vacations with Jewish children, it's hard for me not to be offended by such generalizations as "no one wants the Jews."

quote:

How many have a middle eastern culture.

What about Middle Eastern culture is so different from European culture that pluralism should be impossible?

quote:

I never said never, I said it takes time it needs to happen gradually it won't happen by forcing Israel to accommodate them. Making demands to help and accommodate on a limited basis not even Canada which has many more resources and much more land could absorb that much all at once and still stand on its own to feet.

I agree with you on this. I certainly would not expect Israel to grant an unconditional right of return to all 3 million Palestinians. However, I think integration and pluralism should be the eventual goal, even if it takes decades, and I think it probably will.

A two-state solution is a stepping stone.

quote:

Yes we are all the same we all get along here that is very nice and is the way it should be. there is a lot of mixing but not quite complete.

We still have Italian neighborhoods, Chinese, Korean, Jewish, Russian, Arab etc…
They are all in there own little neighborhoods still.


Yes, but we all go to the downtown; we all ride the subways and the buses; we all vote in the same elections; we all have the same citizenship rights. If I want to buy a house in Little Italy or Little Vietnam tomorrow, legally, I can do that, even though I'm not Italian or Vietnamese.

I'm fine with the cultural mosaic; however, what you're talking about is separate states for separate ethnic groups. It's not the same thing as neighbourhoods.

[ 06 July 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 06 July 2003 07:05 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I agree with you on this. I certainly would not expect Israel to grant an unconditional right of return to all 3 million Palestinians. However, I think integration and pluralism should be the eventual goal, even if it takes decades, and I think it probably will.
A two-state solution is a stepping stone.

Since we can we agree on this the rest irrelevant it will all change in good time. The other issues are temporary and I stress temporary life and death issues.
I don't only hope but I truly believe one day things will change to what you describe but things don't over night miracles take time to happen.
This is what I am always trying to stress but other people are so hyped up about there own personal side that they forget the rest it is really scary sometimes. I'm talking as someone who is seen it from many sides.
quote:
Yes, but we all go to the downtown; we all ride the subways and the buses; we all vote in the same elections; we all have the same citizenship rights. If I want to buy a house in Little Italy or Little Vietnam tomorrow, legally, I can do that, even though I'm not Italian or Vietnamese.

It is almost the same in Israel. My sister is taking a nursing degree in university in Israel many of her classmates are Arab many of the patients she tends are (she has already started to work part-time as a nurse). And she is even inviting a couple them to her wedding in September.

[ 06 July 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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Babbler # 3192

posted 06 July 2003 08:43 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe that. However, the fact is that Jews enjoy rights in Israel (nationality rights) that members of other religious groups do not. I'm not just talking about the right of return - it goes farther than that. Canada does not have such a policy for ordinary citizens.

quote:
This is what I am always trying to stress but other people are so hyped up about there own personal side that they forget the rest it is really scary sometimes.

I think sometimes your message isn't entirely clear; I also think that many people (including me) are very skeptical about Israel's commitment to change. And at this point, the ball really is in Israel's court and no one else's. Once the Palestinians have their own state (if they ever do), it will be a different story. But self-determination is pretty much impossible for people in the Palestinians' current situation.

quote:
President George W. Bush's summit meeting Wednesday with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel and the Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, is unexpected and extraordinary.The hope it generates for progress in the implementation of the American-backed peace plan known as the road map could not have been imagined just days ago. Nevertheless, it is difficult not to view Sharon's and Abbas's acceptance of the road map without a large dose of skepticism.

In the case of Abbas, that skepticism has less to do with his intentions than with his ability to implement the road map's requirements, particularly the demand that he put an end to terrorism. Abbas must contend with the likely obstructionism of Yasser Arafat and with the sorry state of Palestinian security forces, destroyed by Israel.

In Sharon's case, the skepticism has nothing to do with his ability to deliver on the road map's demands, which he unquestionably can, but with his intentions. Since becoming prime minister in February 2001, Sharon has accepted every peace initiative, including the Oslo accords, the Mitchell Commission proposals and the Tenet guidelines, and yet managed to torpedo each with "reservations" and "conditions." If anything, the reservations Sharon has attached to his acceptance of the road map are far more destructive than the conditions that enabled him to defeat previous peace initiatives while skillfully avoiding blame for doing so.

Skepticism about Sharon's acceptance of the road map is also warranted by reports in the Israeli press about "facts on the ground" being established every day that are wildly inconsistent with Sharon's new conviction that Israel cannot continue its occupation of 3.5 million Palestinians.

According to the Israeli journalist Amira Haas, writing in Ha'aretz, these facts on the ground include a new separation wall that is destroying thousands of acres of the most productive Palestinian orchards and farmlands critical to the economy of a new Palestinian state and enclosing Palestinian villages and the entire city of Qalqilya. Israel has also built security fences around settlements, security roads and bypassroads that continue to cut off the Palestinian villages from each other and the villages from their land, and has expanded settlements to half the total area of the West Bank.

These facts may already have determined that the "state" that Sharon is willing to accept, and that has so deeply scandalized rightist opinion in Israel, will be comprised of three enclaves within the West Bank (not counting the fourth enclave in Gaza) cut off from one another, with no direct outlet to neighboringArab countries, much less to the rest of the world. Another leading Israeli expert on Palestinian affairs, DannyRubinstein, concluded in Ha'aretz that the Israeli presence in the territories is becoming a permanent one. It is an assessment endorsed by Emunah Elon, a leading rightist opponent of Palestinian statehood, who wrote in Yediot Ahronot that "the road map is irrelevant, and all that matters is what the prime minister does." Elon confirms that what Sharon is doing is "dividing the territories of Judea and Samaria into tinyPalestinian cantons, cut off one from the other, fenced in and surrounded by a plethora of Jewish settlers." She assures agitated settlers that the excitement generated by Sharon's controversial statements about ending the occupation will be "a fleeting episode."


From here.

[ 06 July 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 07 July 2003 01:54 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First Sharon is 2 faced bastard and has to go with enough pressure for the rest of the US and the rest of the world he will go the Israelis won't put up with him crippling the country unless Israel becomes a member of the EU which in that case the maybe mass immigration out of Israel problem solved. On the other hand if Israelis elect someone like Barak and he seriously starts to move settlements they won't put up with people telling them it's not enough. They will never forcefully accept the right of return not the leftist of the left Israel aside from the Arab parties would accept that they have work too hard and sacrificed too much to give it up now. Aside for the money which they paid many of the Arab residents they paid much in blood, sweat and tears would to build a modern prosperous country in the middle of a place where everyone thought the barend arid and dry and nothing could florish. Would you give it up?

quote:
I think sometimes your message isn't entirely clear; I also think that many people (including me) are very skeptical about Israel's commitment to change. And at this point, the ball really is in Israel's court and no one else's. Once the Palestinians have their own state (if they ever do), it will be a different story. But self-determination is pretty much impossible for people in the Palestinians' current situation.

I know I'm not completely clear I've lived many years in non-English speaking country and to be totally honest I do have a little bit of an L.D.

What do you mean by self determination? How far should one go in the name of his/her cause isn't there any other alternatives in the case?

quote:
I believe that. However, the fact is that Jews enjoy rights in Israel (nationality rights) that members of other religious groups do not. I'm not just talking about the right of return - it goes farther than that. Canada does not have such a policy for ordinary citizens.

This is a very complex issue there are something's that are fair and some that are not. One example is with the exception of Bedouins and Druze is that Arabs do not serve in the IDF it's not just a matter of protecting intelligence it's a matter of not forcing someone into a position where he might have to harm his brother and then obviously someone who sacrificed 3 years of his life to serve his country should be compensated no?

But true many things are not fair in Israel. My father always used to say he supports 2 families his own and some orthodox Jew they are the other large unemployed population in Israel that live below the poverty line in their case it their own fault.

Anyways what specific policy's were you talking about I'm sure not all is what it seems.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged

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