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Author Topic: No justice for Rachel
xrcrguy
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posted 26 June 2003 08:30 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Article
quote:
ISRAEL'S military prosecutor has exonerated Israeli soldiers in the March death of an American peace activist, the army said today, refuting eyewitness claims that the woman was in the line of sight of the bulldozer driver who buried her alive in the Gaza Strip.

From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 26 June 2003 09:03 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are. We. Surprised.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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posted 26 June 2003 09:04 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nope.
From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 26 June 2003 09:11 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, it looks like Israel's much-vaunted "The IDF investigates and pursues its own" is a joke.

Over here, we have a little historical context.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 June 2003 09:20 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or just possibly the IDF investigators may be correct. You do not have a vice hold on truth. And as far as many on this Board are concerned the IDF can never be right. You are as blind as you say they are.
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xrcrguy
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posted 26 June 2003 09:30 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If your a gamblin' man, how's about a friendly wager on the outcome of the Thomas Hurndall investigation?

The IDF investigating it's own is like the fox guarding the henhouse.

I have little faith in any military investigating it's own wrong doings. One only has to look as far as the Somalia inquiry and those poor PPCLI lads in Afghanistan to realize that.

And we supposedly pride ourselves on our righteousness. [insert retching smilie here]


From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 26 June 2003 09:32 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, maybe you could actually, y'know, read the article and note the part where the investigator chose to disregard on-the-scene, eyewitness testimony about what happened.

Banana republics usually do half-assed jobs at "investigating offences" by military or police, too, you know.

[ 26 June 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


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lagatta
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posted 26 June 2003 09:40 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Banana republic or not, I don't think ANY military or police force can be counted on to inspect its own misdeeds,
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 26 June 2003 09:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Mishei, maybe you could actually, y'know, read the article and note the part where the investigator chose to disregard on-the-scene, eyewitness testimony about what happened.

Banana republics usually do half-assed jobs at "investigating offences" by military or police, too, you know.

[ 26 June 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


I

I read the article. All I am saying is that an article is an article. Could it be that the IDF got it right?? Is it possible?? Not with many here who will dismiss out of hand any such possibility.

For the record it would have been better by far for there to have been an independent investigation. I would have had a great deal more comfort that way. However unlike you naysayers I will not automatically dismiss the investigation on the word of a journalist. And certainly not on your word Doc who seems to have a banana fetish...Id get that looked into if I were you.

[ 26 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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Mishei
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posted 26 June 2003 09:51 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 26 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


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xrcrguy
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posted 26 June 2003 10:01 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
[qb]

I read the article. All I am saying is that an article is an article. Could it be that the IDF got it right?? Is it possible?? Not with many here who will dismiss out of hand any such possibility.


Mishei, we're doubters, we question everything, from ourselves to our goverments to the actions of foriegn militaries, we doubt.

If you ever expected otherwise, well, I don't really know what to say.


From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 26 June 2003 10:05 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The IOF verdict is as predictable as the reaction of its apologists.

Did anyone expect this "investigation" to turn out otherwise?


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Mishei
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posted 26 June 2003 10:47 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did anyone expect Al et al to think differently?
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Smith
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posted 26 June 2003 11:06 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I read at the time was that many eyewitnesses had seen the bulldozer drive slowly over her, back up, and drive over her again.

There are pictures of it on the web. I chose not to look at them because I don't think I could handle it. From the one picture I did see - from just before she was killed - I find it hard to believe the driver couldn't see her. She was wearing a fluorescent orange vest and standing on top of a mound of dirt - even if she fell off, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that when someone falls off a mound of dirt, they're still there.

When was the last time the IDF admitted to any wrongdoing at all?


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Justice
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posted 27 June 2003 12:09 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When was the last time the IDF admitted to any wrongdoing at all?

I've seen in many Israeli News papers the IDF admitting to mistakes. It is strange that its hard to find it in English? Probably just another tactic of dehumanization, it's still easier for an organized military to be accountable if it tries then a bunch of terrorist organizations running wild.

If the IDF is the fox guarding the hen house, Then Arafat is the zoo keeper that let the lions run wild and got mauled in the process.

I do admit it would have been more just had there been an external investegation. Still we can not judge from what we hear or see in the news and under the circumstances I don't think there is a place in the world where any Israeli could get a fair hearing.

[ 27 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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Michelle
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posted 27 June 2003 12:25 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gosh, I'm shocked at the outcome.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 June 2003 12:57 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
under the circumstances I don't think there is a place in the world where any Israeli could get a fair hearing.

Bad nasty world.

Maybe the IOF should think about how bad and nasty the world is before their operatives deliberately crush nice American girls to death under caterpillar tracks again.

But by all means, please continue shooting old Arab ladies and their grandchildren to death.


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Mishei
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posted 27 June 2003 08:03 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice has presented the facts cogently as to at least the need to understand that from our easy and lofty vantage point it is too easy to critisize.
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Smith
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posted 27 June 2003 09:01 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But you have no trouble criticizing Palestinians.

quote:
I've seen in many Israeli News papers the IDF admitting to mistakes. It is strange that its hard to find it in English? Probably just another tactic of dehumanization

Interesting, but dehumanization of whom? I think you mean dehumanization of the IDF; personally, I would be just as likely to read it as dehumanization of the Palestinian victims. The North American English-language press figures we won't care, so beyond noting that X people died, they don't give it space.

[ 27 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


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Ray Peterson
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posted 27 June 2003 10:07 AM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I found a link that supports the IDF version :

Rachel Corrie

(warning, some graphic photos)

I'll look for one that supports the ISM version.

[ 27 June 2003: Message edited by: Ray Peterson ]


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No Yards
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posted 27 June 2003 10:08 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Justice has presented the facts cogently as to at least the need to understand that from our easy and lofty vantage point it is too easy to critisize.

Wouldn't that apply to both sides of this "dispute"??

Why should it be wrong to make "rash" judgements about the IDF clearing itself in what video evidence seems to show to be a clear case of murder, yet there is no issue shooting or blowing up old women and children if they are Palestinian and might be shopping or playing in the area of a "terrorist"??

Israel cuts off Palestinian leaders from all contact with the outside world and expects them to be able to control some radical, independent, and uncontrollable terrorist groups . . . but Israel, with no outside interference, cannot control its own military!!

Israel, IMO, is not a democracy, nor will it ever be a democracy, until it stops abusing "justice"!

Democracy is a lot more than simply voting in your leaders!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 27 June 2003 10:09 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I criticize everybody I don't see any point in any Israeli going beyond the green line it certinaly isn't bening helpful to Israels security or anythings else. However same goes to the Terorrist groups.

Even if Israel would go back however for many of you rabbler's that wouldn't be enough would it???

It's not really a matter of what is Just it's more a matter of what is smart.

Oh and about dehuminization most canadian papers I see often have a heading IDF shoot and kills 15 year old Palistinian boy" but do the bother to mention he was holding a firebomb Noooooooooooo.

[ 27 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


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No Yards
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posted 27 June 2003 10:52 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some first person eye Witness accounts!

Including an account from one of the people that was in Ray's link . . . of the confused "eye witnesses" in the Cohen article, I could find confirmation of only one of them that were actually there at the site of the "accident"!! Yet Cohen seems to try and trick us into believing that a bunch of "eye witnesses" couldn't get their stories together.

The only real "confused" "eyewitness" in the Cohen story came from someone that was only identified by their first name . . . of the others, one was actually an eye witness, the others consisted on one person relaying the story, and one person identified as "an activist" . . . the three of which had consistant stories and did not contradict each other at all.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 27 June 2003 11:07 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:

Even if Israel would go back however for many of you rabbler's that wouldn't be enough would it???


What makes you say that?? Has Israel moved back to the green line lately to test that theory??

Pretty insulting to claim that those against an illegal occupation by Israel actually want to elliminate Israel altogether!!

quote:


Oh and about dehuminization most canadian papers I see often have a heading IDF shoot and kills 15 year old Palistinian boy" but do the bother to mention he was holding a firebomb Noooooooooooo.

[ 27 June 2003: Message edited by: Justice ]


Yes, and when the headlines read how a suicide bomber kills innocent restaurant diners, there is never any mention that those innocent diners hold Palestinian land, imprison palestinians in ghettoes, prevent ambulances from getting seriously sick Palestinians to hospitals . . . Noooooooo.

You may not like to draw a "moral equivilance" between what Palestinians and Israelis do in order to save their respective countries, but the facts remain that many many many people do!!

Rubber bullets, fire bombs, attack helicopter missiles, belt bombs . . . these weapons all seems equally "moral" to me!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 27 June 2003 11:10 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is the actual testimony that was disregarded in this ruling (I'd guess that there's a 1/5 weighting ratio in IDF cases):

quote:
"They began demolishing one house," said an ISM
activist, who said his name was Richard. "We
gathered around and called out to them and went
into the house, so they backed out. During the
entire time they knew who we were and what we
were doing, because they didn't shoot at us. We
stood in their way and shouted. There were
about eight of us in an area about 70 square
meters. Suddenly, we saw they turned to a house
they had started to demolish before, and I saw
Rachel standing in the way of the front
bulldozer."

According to the activist, Corrie was wearing a
bright jacket and climbed onto the bulldozer
shovel-plow and began shouting at the driver.

"There's no way he didn't see her, since she was
practically looking into the cabin. At one
stage, he turned around toward the building.
The bulldozer kept moving, and she slipped and
fell off the plow. But the bulldozer kept
moving, the shovel above her. I guess it was
about 10 or 15 meters that it dragged her and
for some reason didn't stop. We shouted like
crazy to the driver through loudspeakers that
he should stop, but he just kept going and
didn't lift the shovel. Then it stopped and
backed up. We ran to Rachel. She was still
breathing."

Activists said the tank arrived on the scene and
was only 20 meters away, but the soldiers did
not offer any assistance. A little while later,
the heavy equipment pulled away, and a Red
Crescent ambulance took the badly injured woman
to Abu Yusef Najar Hospital in Rafah, where she
was declared dead on arrival.

Army sources said the demolitions were meant to
prevent sabotage along the Philadelphi road
parallel to the Egyptian border. The sources
said the bulldozer driver deviated from the
track and apparently was moving a block of
concrete that hit the woman.


From Indymedia Israel


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 June 2003 11:38 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However same goes to the Terorrist groups.

We're talking about an unarmed girl engaged in peaceful resistance.

Get it?


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 June 2003 11:39 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Seems to me that anyone who was actually there and actually saw anything is going to be too heavily biased to one side or the other to be an impartial witness.

If someone were there who had absolutely no stake in the conflict and were to speak up, that'd be different, but otherwise it's he said/she said, and of course the IDF is going to win that one, what with getting to make all the rules and such.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 27 June 2003 12:19 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Even if Israel would go back however for many of you rabbler's that wouldn't be enough would it???

Yes, because we want to destroy Israel, and by extension all Jews, because we're evil like that.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 27 June 2003 01:05 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If someone were there who had absolutely no stake in the conflict and were to speak up, that'd be different, but otherwise it's he said/she said, and of course the IDF is going to win that one, what with getting to make all the rules and such.


Unfortunately, you have to rely on someone who was actually there to provide eyewitness testimony. The only people present were IDF personnel, Palestinians watching their homes be destroyed, and ISM volunteers. Makes it hard to find an unbiased witness. I can actually see where reasonable doubt enters into the picture here. The prosecutor should've set up a demonstration to prove (or lend credence to) the theory that the driver had Rachel in full view prior to crushing every bone in her body. There is no disputing the cause of her death, after all, the dispute is whether the driver could be reasonably aware that Rachel was in the path of the bulldozer. A prosecutor interested in presenting a strong case would have tried to corroborate the ISM testimony with physical evidence.

Edited to add: I'm putting this case in my "wrist slap or off scot-free" box of IDF offenders. An underzealous prosecution does nothing for the credibility of IDF "justice".

[ 27 June 2003: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 June 2003 02:02 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If this cat operator were this careless on a Canadian construction site he'd be charged.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 27 June 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But you have no trouble criticizing Palestinians
I have critisized PA politicians and terrorists. Please show me where I have critisized "Palestinians".

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Smith
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posted 27 June 2003 04:39 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But that's what we're doing. We're criticizing Israeli government and military.
From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 June 2003 04:51 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes, and when the headlines read how a suicide bomber kills innocent restaurant diners, there is never any mention that those innocent diners hold Palestinian land, imprison palestinians in ghettoes, prevent ambulances from getting seriously sick Palestinians to hospitals . . . Noooooooo.

Actually, their government does, not the diners. They may very well oppose the occupation as strongly as any Palestinian.

Do you agree with everything our government does?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 27 June 2003 05:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A prosecutor interested in presenting a strong case would have tried to corroborate the ISM testimony with physical evidence.

I think Sarcasmo's point above (argued more fully in his post above) is what matters. In any serious inquiry, there would have been a careful attempt to reconstruct the sequence of events, on site.

I mean, do these people never read forensic mystery novels? I ask you. By now, I would know how to conduct the reconstruction. There are people who are expert at this, and there are enough photos around to direct them.

Remember the case of the little boy who was shot as he crouched behind his father? There's a thread below on a similar sort of investigative failure in that case. An Israeli adjudicator ruled that the boy had been killed by Palestinian fire -- even though the attempt to reconstruct the scene was NOT done on site.

Of course, doing any reconstruction on site after IDF bulldozers have been through presents some basic problems. But to good forensic investigators, these should not be insurmountable.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 27 June 2003 09:10 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
But that's what we're doing. We're criticizing Israeli government and military.

And you are free to do so as I am free to question your critisism.

[ 27 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 27 June 2003 09:18 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ooh. A group hug.

I just love it when everybody all agrees on the ME Forum. I mean, far out, eh?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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