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Author Topic: MPs compare Gaza to Warsaw ghetto
WingNut
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posted 19 June 2003 12:41 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"What makes it similar is what happened to the Jewish people in that time which was the seizing of land, being forced from property, torture and bureaucracy - control used in a demeaning way over the smallest task.

"On top of that building a wall around them - and that is precisely what the Israeli government is doing. In doing so it is building a political ghetto. I don't think it can escape that conclusion."

Ms King also said: "As a Jewish person, I hoped I would never live to see the day I was ashamed of the actions of the Jewish state."


http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foreignaffairs/story/0,11538,980743,00.html


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 19 June 2003 01:01 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Glad to see some Jewish politicians speaking out about this. Not too many in the U.S. because they are under the thumb of AIPAC.

The actions of successive Israeli governments for some thirty years have been antithetical to the ethics of Judaism. These actions have tainted the moral precepts of the religion itself.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Maggot
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posted 19 June 2003 01:08 PM      Profile for Maggot   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
"Tainted the religion"?
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Whazzup?
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posted 19 June 2003 01:31 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WingNut is presumably directing this story at me, so I’ll bite.

The comparison is fundamentally an ignorant one, as Oona King reveals in this part:

quote:
"It is the same in nature but not extent."
She stressed the "very, very big difference" between Gaza and the infamous ghetto established by the Nazis in Poland's capital.
"Palestinians are not being rounded up and put in gas chambers," she said.

In other words, it is the same neither in nature nor extent.

Maybe it boils down to a matter of taste.

Saddam Hussein was personally responsible for the deaths of millions of Muslims. As the Kurds can attest, he too employed “the seizing of land, being forced from property, torture and bureaucracy - control used in a demeaning way over the smallest task.” And yet the notion that Saddam could be compared to Hitler has been greeted on this site with overwhelming scorn. In fact, several babblers have deliberately joked about the notion, downplayed Saddam’s crimes, misrepresented the numbers, denied his responsibility. (Please don't make me list them.)

Slobodan Milosevic was personally responsible for the deaths of over a hundred thousand Muslims, and the forcible expulsion of over a million more. And yet, once again, the comparison with Hitler is laughed at. There have been several babblers who, once again, engage in genocide denial. One has even claimed that the Bosnian concentration camps were a hoax. And yet he continues to post.

So why, if mass murderers like Saddam and Milosevic must not be compared with Hitler, -- why is it so damned compelling to compare Israel with Hitler?

I have never compared Hitler with Saddam or Milosevic. It’s ignorant and lazy to do so. But if it’s ignorant and lazy in that case, then it’s even more ignorant and lazy to extend the comparison to Israel’s behaviour in the occupied territories.


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 19 June 2003 01:44 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Laziness, or irony? You decide. Jewish people were the victims of the Warsaw Ghetto. The Israeli government (which claims to represent the hopes of the Jewish people) is directly responsible for the conditions in Gaza and the West Bank. People like irony. People like to point out irony. It's natural that people will compare horrendous events in the national psyche of the Jewish people when looking at Israeli government excesses today.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 19 June 2003 02:04 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
WingNut is presumably directing this story at me, so I’ll bite.


You have an undeserved high opnion of yourself. I was posting a news story that came out within the last couple of hours that I thought would generate a discussion. I hadn't thought of you at all. Why would I?

I will admit I did think of Mishei and debated with myself whether to link the story. In the end, the story is already being covered by all major news services and is spreading around the globe so the comparison, which I appreciate is hurtful to some, will already be soon reaching everyone's living rooms even without me.

As a side note, I think it is unlikely that Saddam killed a million of his own people (unless you include those who died in war as being killed by Saddam) but certainly the British and Americans have killed that many through illegally applied sanctions, depleted uranium and war. So certainly, then, you must hold the British and American leadership with the same contempt as Saddam Hussein. I will assume you do.


Further, arguing similarities between Gaza and the Warsaw ghetto is quite different than arguing Sharon, or anyone else, is Hitler or that Israelis are nazis. It is no more valid than arguing that because the trains run on time in Britain, Blair is Mussolini and the British fascists. The suggestion that the one comparison equals the other is intellectually lazy.


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skdadl
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posted 19 June 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In fact, several babblers have deliberately joked about the notion, downplayed Saddam’s crimes, misrepresented the numbers, denied his responsibility. (Please don't make me list them.)

Sorry, Whazzup? -- much as I love you, I have to challenge this slander to the board.

I do not believe that anyone has ever downplayed Saddam Hussein's crimes on babble. Ever. If anyone has, then I missed that post.

To accuse people who stayed focused on Washington's perfidy of "downplaying" Saddam's crime is either stupid or crooked. I do not believe you are stupid, dearest Whazzup?. Please stop reminding me of Margaret Wente, or worse, John Ibbitson, or absolutely worst of all, Marcus Gee.

The threads on Milosevic have been murkier, I admit, although made so by only a very few.


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Whazzup?
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posted 19 June 2003 02:09 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
Laziness, or irony? You decide.

Ok. It's laziness.

Actually, I appreciate the fact that irony could be at play here. But I think it's of a slightly different nature. What's ironic is that a people condemned to extinction by the Nazis should -- because of that fact -- be perpetually called Nazis themselves, whenever guilty of what Sarcasmo calls "excesses."

But comparing actual living, breathing dictators who deliberately and calculatingly murder millions of Muslims -- well, that's absurd to call them Nazis.

Irony indeed.


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Whazzup?
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posted 19 June 2003 02:14 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I do not believe that anyone has ever downplayed Saddam Hussein's crimes on babble. Ever. If anyone has, then I missed that post.


That is bullshit, skdadl. And you have seen the threads. Lagatta claimed that the Turks were far worse than Saddam. Bullshit. Blind Patriot claimed that one-twentieth of the actual number of Kurds died under Saddam. Bullshit. Time and time again people have claimed that "there are far worse dictators" than Saddam in the Middle East. Bullshit. (Check out Amnesty International and HRW id you don't believe me.) Many have claimed that Saddam didn't gas the Kurds. Bullshit.


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Briguy
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posted 19 June 2003 02:22 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your opinion is noted, Whazzup?. However, when most people are talking about the oppression and humiliation of the Palestinian people, they can do it without bringing the rest of the world's baggage into play. So, I can think that Milosovic is guilty of mind-boggling war-crimes, and is comparable to Hitler. At the same time, I can choose to agree with analogies drawn to point out suffering in the Palestinian enclaves. My brain allows for simultaneous opinions on unrelated (or even related) current events. I personally think the Palestinian situation is more like Apartheid South Africa than Warsaw circa WWII, but that's just me.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 June 2003 02:43 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whazzup, I willingly stood corrected when shown that Saddam killed more Kurds (through chemical warfare) than the Turkish government. My mistake was temporal - there was indeed a far greater massacre of the Kurds by the Turks, of genocidal proportions - many estimates put it at over a million - but it was perpetrated at the beginning of the last century. I never deliberately downplayed the brutal nature of the Ba'athist dictatorship - I was pointing out that Saddam was certainly not the only enemy of the Kurdish people and that oppressors who happened to be on the side of the US were accorded impunity. That is true.

I have never downplayed the brutality of Saddam's dictatorship. What I have insisted on is the necessity never to use such "humanist" pretexts to support the imperialism that shores up Third-World dictatorships in the first place.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 19 June 2003 03:36 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Saddam Hussein was personally responsible for the deaths of millions of Muslims.

Source?

I read someone who quoted Amnesty International as saying something like 250,000 - 300,000 were killed during Sadaam's rule. Sorry, no link.

Amnesty International's 2003 Report on Iraq mentions:

quote:
Scores of people, including possible prisoners of conscience, were executed. A general amnesty for prisoners was announced, but the fate of tens of thousands of people who "disappeared" in previous years remained unknown

"Scores," and "tens of thousands."

Bad enough in itself, but hardly the hyperbolic assertion of "millions of Muslims."


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skdadl
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posted 19 June 2003 03:53 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Many have claimed that Saddam didn't gas the Kurds.

On babble???

WHERE???


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WingNut
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posted 19 June 2003 03:58 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To be fair, GGiNT did cite a CIA report, repeated in the New York Times, which cast doubt on the gassing of the Kurds. The report suggested the Iranians could have been responsible and the gassing occurred in the fog of war. There was also the suggestion that if the Iraqis did gas the town it was because at the time it was occupied by Iranians.

Interestingly, this report was allegedly created to help dtract criticism from a regime the US was actively supporting with aid and trade including weapons.

However, GGiNT does not constitute many.


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lagatta
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posted 19 June 2003 04:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is a very sad story about life in Gaza: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3001692.stm

I know that personally I wouldn't make the Gaza - Warsaw ghetto comparison because the Warsaw ghetto was not only an antechamber but itself a place of systematic, scientific genocide. However two friends of mine (one here, one in Argentina) who are sons of Warsaw ghetto survivors, though they don't make that comparison, do talk about how horrible it is to see Jews acting like their oppressors.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 19 June 2003 05:18 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why must this always be posted here on babble. You people aren't stupid. I venture to guess that you are sensitive to others and to the truth of history. There is no comparision between the Warsaw ghetto and the Palestinian problems.

I personally dont give a sweet shit if an MP or the devil himself makes this comparision it is not true. It demeans the deaths of over 350,000 people who were murdered within th Ghetto, it tarnishes the tragedy of the jewish heroes who were fighting for their lives in the ghetto. And on a personal level it is a direct insult to my family.

here is a brief description of the warsaw ghetto from the Encyclopedia Judaica, followed by a post I put here months ago for those who have never been able to understand the ugliness and the outright evil of comparing any Nazi action to Israel.


quote:
From Encyclopedia Judaica

Originally some 400,000 Jews were crowded into the area of the ghetto. The reductions in its size necessitated internal shifting and further overcrowding, so that thousands of families were often left without shelter. The situation was further aggravated when some 72,000 Jews from the Warsaw district (see Poland) were transferred to the ghetto, bringing the total number of refugees to 150,000 (April 1941). The average number of persons per room was 13, while thousands remained homeless. The ghetto population during various periods prior to July 1942 is estimated to have been between 400,000 and 500,000. The confiscation and plunder of Jewish property was conducted by the “Transferstelle.” In January 1942, Jewish goods valued at 3,736,000 zlotys ($747,200); in February - 4,738,000 zlotys ($947,600); in March – 6,045,000 zlotys ($1,209.000); and in April – 6,893,000 zlotys ($1,378,000). The ghetto population received a food allocation amounting to 184 calories per capita a day, while the Poles received 634, and the Germans 2,310. The price per large calory was 5.9 zlotys (about $1) for Jews, 2.6 zlotys (50 cents) for Poles, and 0.3 zlotys ($.06) for Germans. The average allocation per person in the ghetto was four pounds of bread and a half pound of sugar a month. The dough was mixed with sawdust and potato peels.

The number of victims, including those murdered in the ghetto and those deported to Treblinka, totalled approximately 300,000 out of the 370,000 inhabitants of the ghetto prior to July 1942.


quote:
That said, do you really need that history lesson? Have you never heard of Auschwitz or Treblinka. Have you never heard of the Einsatzgruppen, the Nazi killing units whose job it was to forcibly round up innocent Jews where they were then brought to a field outside of their town.. Mothers were then asked to strip their children , blindfold them, dig their own graves following which the mothers were shot first to make it more horrendous for the children? Have you never heard of Babi Yar where in the space of 24 hours tens of thousands of Jews were shot and buried in a mass grave? Have you never heard of the Mobile gas vans where Jews and Soviet prisoners of war were forced into a van 50 at a time, the exhaust pipe turned inward and the van taken on a journey of death until all the victims were gassed ? Have you never heard of Adoph Eichmann the coldly efficient Nazi civil servant who ensured that the Jews wwere properly packed into boxcars (2000 per car) no food, water and those that survived the train , well Mr. Eichman delivered them to Daeth camps. Yes I mentioned the death camps earlier. Perhaps you never heard what occured at theses camps. How women, the elderly and children under 12 were sent to the "left". That line was marched to a huge room with hooks on the wall. They were told they would be deloused. The women helped the children off with their clothes. The young ones were frightened they were wailing, crying...2500 at a time were forced into the "shower" stalls where instead of water came Zyklon B a deadly gas used to kill termites and Jews. The stronger ones climbed over the weaker ones too get to the top of the room near the ceiling for that last precious breath of air. But it really didnt matter because all were eventually gassed to death. In all in the gas chambers abour 2.5 million.
Jon there are many books detailing the unspeakable crimes of Nazism. I have but scratched the surface. I honestly did not mean to go on like this. But your challenge Jon...can you begin to get even an inkling of understanding as to why people like me and 007 and others rail at those who make these Nazi comparisions to Israel and the IDF?
I have said it before and I will say it again, such comparisions are not only shameful they humiliate the survivors of Nazism by belittling their experience. And saddest of all it trivializes the most brutal and murderous regime in the annals of history. Indeed it trivializes the murders of the poor Jewish souls, all 6 million of them that were murdered by Nazism.



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skdadl
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posted 19 June 2003 05:25 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's the problem, Mishei. We do all know those stories.
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Mishei
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posted 19 June 2003 05:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
That's the problem, Mishei. We do all know those stories.
And you still believe that there can be any comparision.?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 June 2003 05:49 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, what is your point? That nothing is evil until it equals the evil of the Nazis?
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Mishei
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posted 19 June 2003 05:54 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Mishei, what is your point? That nothing is evil until it equals the evil of the Nazis?
No, my point is pretty simple.

There can be no comparision between the Warsaw Ghetto and the manner in wich the Jews were murderd to the plight of the Palestinians. None whatsoever.


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Mycroft_
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posted 19 June 2003 05:56 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can there be a comparison between Gaza and apartheid South Africa's Bantustans?
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Mishei
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posted 19 June 2003 06:10 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft:
Can there be a comparison between Gaza and apartheid South Africa's Bantustans?
If you want to discuss this calmny why dont you create another sick thread instead of trying to troll?

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Ray Peterson
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posted 19 June 2003 06:10 PM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the politicians who made these comments are ignorant asses. I don't know what they're trying to prove with such disgusting comparisons.
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skdadl
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posted 19 June 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I do not understand how people expect to advance debate simply by claiming things.

Mind you, I understand the sheer claim in rhetorical/poetic terms. It is the language of epic-heroic or romantic poetry. It runs a lot on self-evidence.

But it is not the language of debate.


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Mishei
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posted 19 June 2003 06:25 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I do not understand how people expect to advance debate simply by claiming things.

Mind you, I understand the sheer claim in rhetorical/poetic terms. It is the language of epic-heroic or romantic poetry. It runs a lot on self-evidence.

But it is not the language of debate.


Really? Ok then here is more proof of how insensitive and downright evil it is to make such stupid aand ignorant comparisions:


quote:
From Remebering The Voices That Were Silenced

Hunger subjucated the ghetto. German policy was to starve the Jews, and starvation stalked the great ghettos of the Generalgouvernement….

Bread and potatoes were basic subsistence. The bread was, at best, rough and coarse, often stale, sometimes moldy or compounded of foreign bodies, like sand….

Its price rose and fell, according to supply and demand. In prewar days it cost just groszy. In 1940 the price of a kilogram of bread hovered around 4 zlotys. Potatoes, Chaim Kaplan noted, are “our whole life. When I am alone in my room for a few moments of quiet, the echo of that word continues in my ears. Even in my dreams it visits me.” Before the war, 100 kilograms of potatoes had cost 30 zlotys. On November 27, 1940, it had risen to 100 zlotys; in bad times, potato peelings substituted….

Hunger obsessed everyone. “A dybbuk has entered my belly. My belly talks, shouts, even has complaints and drives me mad,” wrote Yehuda Elberg in his Warsaw ghetto diary….




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skdadl
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posted 19 June 2003 06:27 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

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lagatta
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posted 19 June 2003 06:39 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My friend from Argentina is a gentle, sensitive soul who speaks in muted horror of the atrocities his parents lived through in Warsaw and those he managed to escape in his own country. I cried for hours after the first time I met him , thinking of his two rows of dead, family and friends, though he had never said anything maudlin.

But in his case, he is drawn to the oppressed, including the Palestinians. No, he wouldn't say it was like the Warsaw ghetto seeping with death and terror that his parents managed to flee, or the horror of the death flights over his city with his tortured friends as cargo. But he is deeply moved by a people being oppressed and horrified that the children of Holocaust survivors could do such a thing.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 19 June 2003 06:52 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But he is deeply moved by a people being oppressed and horrified that the children of Holocaust survivors could do such a thing.

Not to put words in her mouth, but this seems to be the point skdadl made when she said we have all heard the holocaust stories.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 19 June 2003 07:19 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
No, my point is pretty simple.

There can be no comparision between the Warsaw Ghetto and the manner in wich the Jews were murderd to the plight of the Palestinians. None whatsoever.


As usual, you show your hipocrisy and blindness to the ridiculous falsity of your argument. Your statement IS a comparison of just the kind you deny is possible.

Incomparable, yet perpetually compared. Invidious comparison is 'ok'. Comparison under different catagories which comes to a conclusion of consonance is denied to be true - in fact, not even possible. No attempt is made to address the catagories being used in the first comparison. Instead, an alternative series of catagories is imposed and based on the non-identicality of data in the imposed catagories the conclusion is drawn - by comparison - that there can be no comparison.

Laughable....

Ideology is a funny thing....

[ 19 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Courage
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posted 19 June 2003 07:36 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whazzup?:
WingNut is presumably directing this story at me, so I’ll bite.

The comparison is fundamentally an ignorant one, as Oona King reveals in this part:

In other words, it is the same neither in nature nor extent.

Maybe it boils down to a matter of taste.


Actually it boils down to a diversion on your part. First of all, like Mishei, you posit an alternative set of catagories to the one on which the original comparison is based. When the data don't satisfy criteria of identity based on YOUR imposed catagories, you claim that the events are radically and utterly dissimilar; that the first comparison is false, and even self-contradictory. At no point do you address the catagories used in the first comparison for their relevance or cogency.

This also leaves us with another problem - are the catagories that you apply the most relevent one's for comparison? Does their exclusion in the original comparison render the comparison false? Logically, no: if I'm comparing the colour of two objects and find them to be similar, and you simply counter-argue that the most relevent catagory is that of weight and show that the two are dissimilar, that doesn't falsify the first comparison. The objects are still the same colour. Moreover, we've implicitly raised the issue about the relative importance of different catagories of comparison, and this requires address.

Perhaps a look at the catagory you are using will shed some light. Essentially your argument is that the most distinguishing feature of the Warsaw Ghettos - and Nazism/facism generally - was that it resulted in the deaths of Jews. The question then becomes - is the 'killing of Jews' the prime defining characteristic of the Warsaw Ghetto - the 'transcendent' catagory that colours all other catagories? You can argue this way, but I think it ends up devaluing humanity in its own way. If we conceive that the 'death' of people is the human rights abuse which colours all the others (all others are simply lead-ups to it) we end up devaluing a great number of aspects of humanity which transcend the merely animal body which lives and dies. We devalue the uniquely 'human' possibilities which can make for a robust conception of 'humanity' - the pursuit of truth, subjectivity and agency, dignity, etc. From the point of view of this more robust figure of humanity - a 'subject' more than just a physical, animal body that lives and dies - the crimes of denegration, of literal 'dehumanisation', of denial of political, social, and economic agency - are as much a crime against "humanity" as killing someone. For the simple reason that these acts comprise the denial and/or destruction of everything that makes people 'human' as such, and not merely animal.

In other words, if we are to posit a more robust figure of 'humanity' than the argument that the defining and transcendent feature of the Warsaw Ghettos was the 'death' of Jews doesn't hold. Moreover, it provides the space for a quite rational comparison of this 'event' with others, including the denegration, dehumanisation, and denial of social, political, and economic agency of Palestinians by the Israeli state. We see that what Baruch Kimmerling has called 'politicide' is a real, salient catagory which allows us to sustain a deeper, fuller conception of humanity and what crimes may be committed against it.

But this is a matter of taste, perhaps...

[ 19 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 19 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 19 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 19 June 2003 07:51 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 19 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Whazzup?
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posted 19 June 2003 08:43 PM      Profile for Whazzup?     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Insofar as I understand your post, Courage, this seems to be its main point:
quote:
From the point of view of this more robust figure of humanity - a 'subject' more than just a physical, animal body that lives and dies - the crimes of denegration, of literal 'dehumanisation', of denial of political, social, and economic agency - are as much a crime against "humanity" as killing someone.

Denigrating someone is as much a crime as killing him? This might be true in certain academic circles. It's not true in mine.

[If you're interested, skdadl, I'll PM you the details. I'm not interested in dragging this thread off course. That wasn't my point anyway, as you know.]


From: Under the Rubble | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 19 June 2003 09:04 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 19 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 19 June 2003 09:05 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whazzup?:
Insofar as I understand your post, Courage, this seems to be its main point:

Denigrating someone is as much a crime as killing him? This might be true in certain academic circles. It's not true in mine.


Why not?

Besides, perhaps I o'erstepped the mark a little. My point is that I believe that we cannot reduce the Warsaw Ghetto event to the simple matter of the deaths of Jews. It's horror did not consist merely in the animalesque physical death of homo sapiens sapiens. Otherwise - assuming that mere physical life is the sine qua non of humanity and furthermore that nothing need be protected outside of that - the deaths of people everyday should be just as horrific to us. But this isn't the case. Rather, it seems that our horror is due to 'how' the killing was done - AND - importantly, the grotesque steps that lead to this end. Namely, the efforts made to dehumanise, denigrate and destroy the subjective agency of Jews long before they were killed. This is why we treat 'normal' victims of war - soldiers for example - differently than Jews killed by Nazis. Something in the 'lack of choice' (the denial of subjective agency) and in the terrible conditons deliberately created; the ends gone to to humiliate Jews - to remove from the circle of full humanity - are what make it more horrific. I think you might agree. I think that knowingly or unknowingly, a certain kernal of my argument animates your own. We aren't that far apart on this issue.

Second, that wasn't my only point, and it is instructive that you simply passed over my criticism of your argumentative diversion. Strictly speaking, you haven't demonstrated in any convincing way why the MPs comparisons were self-contradictory or false without recourse to an imposition of your own catagories. This goes generally for your argument against comparisons of the Warsaw Ghetto and the West Bank - you simply show that the Ghetto was 'worse' (a matter of degree, not kind) in certain ways, while IGNORING (and isn't this your main charge against others) the catagories and evidence providing for a comparison.

[ 19 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 19 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 19 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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lagatta
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posted 19 June 2003 09:09 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder what Walter Benjamin would have said about that...
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 19 June 2003 09:20 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
I wonder what Walter Benjamin would have said about that...

About what?


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skdadl
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posted 19 June 2003 09:44 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I would suggest that knowingly or unknowingly, a certain kernal of my argument animates your own. We aren't that far apart on this.


I often think that this is so blindingly obvious of our debates with Whazzup? on this forum. Maybe not with Mishei, but with Whazzup?. It puzzles me.

Walter Benjamin, of course, did what he had to do -- and what was offered to him was most narrow.

How many more martyrs do we want?

[ 19 June 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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Mycroft_
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posted 19 June 2003 09:51 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I hardly think I was trolling. One can easily compare the Bantustans to Gaza in that , like South Africa, Israel wishes to keep a population concentrated in territories which have the most limited forms of self government and in which the great power can intervene at will. Of course there are differences. The death toll in Gaza and the West Bank is much higher than in the Bantustans and, as of yet, Israel is not trying to concentrate all Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza though there are those in government who would like to remove Israeli Arabs.

quote:
Referring to Warsaw, scene of the historic uprising by its Jewish inhabitants, Ms King said: "It is the same in nature but not extent."

She stressed the "very, very big difference" between Gaza and the infamous ghetto established by the Nazis in Poland's capital.

"Palestinians are not being rounded up and put in gas chambers," she said.

But the MP said: "What makes it similar is what happened to the Jewish people in that time which was the seizing of land, being forced from property, torture and bureaucracy - control used in a demeaning way over the smallest task.

"On top of that building a wall around them - and that is precisely what the Israeli government is doing. In doing so it is building a political ghetto. I don't think it can escape that conclusion."

Ms King also said: "As a Jewish person, I hoped I would never live to see the day I was ashamed of the actions of the Jewish state."

The situation had worsened considerably since she last visited with pressure group Labour Friends of Israel in 1998, she added.

Ms Tonge agreed: "You are almost getting a situation like the Warsaw ghetto - people can't get in or out. They can't work, they can't sell anything. There is this gradual squeeze."

However, the Richmond Park MP also offered a comparison of her own.

"I feel it was an apartheid system and it is certainly getting worse - the area where the Palestinians live is getting smaller."

Ms Tonge wants to see economic sanctions against Israel unless the situation improves and says EU or UN troops should be sent in to keep the peace.


What the MPs are saying is that there *is* a great difference in degree ie that Gaza is not as bad as the Warsaw Ghetto, but that there are similarities in the sense of being walled in, of being denied employment, of people being forced from their property, having their homesteads destroyed and in the use of torture and terror as means of control and that more and more people are being concentratd on less and less land.

Like it or not, Mishei, there is a continuum of racism and oppression and the Israelis are quite a ways down that road.

[ 19 June 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 19 June 2003 11:40 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have never denied the tragedy of the Palestinian people is real and that Israel has played a sad role in their plight as has the Palestinian leadership.

However those who would constantly use the Warsaw Ghetto analogy do more harm to the Palestinian cause especially amongst progressive Jews (with some exceptions) who know the true agenda of such malfesance.

To use the generalities of what the Palestinains suffer and then claim it is just like the Warsaw ghetto demeans the history of both tragedies. There just is no real comparision and many of us can only believe that those who insist on trying to shove this analogy down society's throat are only trying to, in reality, demonize Israel and the Jewish people by extention. It is a falasious and ignorant abuse of history and is tantamount to Holocaust minimilization.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 June 2003 11:53 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, I don't think so. It isn't a thing I would have said (I'd be more inclined to think of our own aboriginal people, or other colonial situations) but I understand why progressive Jewish people like these Labour MPs or the friends I spoke of recoil with horror at the thought of Jews, persecuted for centuries, treating other human beings in such a demeaning manner.

I really don't think one can put the Palestinian leadership, corrupt though it is, on the same level. Once again that is like the problems with aboriginal leaderships here - it does not take away with the fundamental fact that their land was stolen. Their land was stolen by great powers - first the Brits, later the Americans. Jewish DP survivors from death camps didn't have a hell of a lot of choices.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 19 June 2003 11:58 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Sorry, I don't think so. It isn't a thing I would have said (I'd be more inclined to think of our own aboriginal people, or other colonial situations) but I understand why progressive Jewish people like these Labour MPs or the friends I spoke of recoil with horror at the thought of Jews, persecuted for centuries, treating other human beings in such a demeaning manner.

I really don't think one can put the Palestinian leadership, corrupt though it is, on the same level. Once again that is like the problems with aboriginal leaderships here - it does not take away with the fundamental fact that their land was stolen. Their land was stolen by great powers - first the Brits, later the Americans. Jewish DP survivors from death camps didn't have a hell of a lot of choices.


Lagatta, my only argument here is the single focus of those insisting on utilizing Nazi imagery ..that's all. I repeat it is an abomination of history.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 20 June 2003 12:27 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

However those who would constantly use the Warsaw Ghetto analogy do more harm to the Palestinian cause especially amongst progressive Jews (with some exceptions) who know the true agenda of such malfesance.


My experience has been the opposite - a great many Jews who are against the occupation and the open talk of 'transfer', and the house bulldozing, and the water theft, and the discriminatory laws, and so on, are uncomfortable with the comparison, but largely because it's a little too close for comfort...

I recommend - if you are in Toronto or nearby - attending some of the events which are part of Negotiations: From a Piece of Land to A Land of Peace. (June 19-29) I suspect you will find some 'progressive' Jews that will blow your conceptions out of the water.

quote:
To use the generalities of what the Palestinains suffer and then claim it is just like the Warsaw ghetto demeans the history of both tragedies.

First, we are being VERY specific as to the catagories of comparison. Second, I think you are being disingenious on the second count. You have demonstrated time and again that your real concern is with not 'demeaning the history' of the Holocaust - in other words, you don't like to have it demythologised; brought down out of the heady clouds and spoken about in normal political terms. You would like to leave it beyond 'normal' discourse - an object different - and greater -than all other objects. Moreover, paradoxically, you don't want to lose the Holocaust as your prime measuring stick of political 'Evil'. Do as you say (don't compare), not as you do (compare)...

And frankly, a comparison of the two events based on the robust sense of 'humanity' that I (and many others) propose allows both histories to be read in a different light - vivified by a spirit of compassion and reciprocity (do unto others) rather than getting stuck in the quagmire of historical and ethnic one-up-man's-ship as concerns suffering...

quote:
It is a falasious and ignorant abuse of history and is tantamount to Holocaust minimilization.

...Comparisons just like that. You know, the kind of comparison you claim is impossible. Can't you see how elementarily flawed your argument is? This also demonstrates your true 'historiographical' concern, I might add. A shallow veil for an intent to defend your particular object of ideology.

[ 20 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Mishei
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posted 20 June 2003 12:37 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If anything is an 'abuse of history' it is the use of Jews' suffering during the Holocaust as a cover for the crimes of the Israeli state against Palestinians.

By the way - what is fallacious about this?

Palestinians are daily removed from their homes and their homes destroyed, their goods confiscated and left to rot...

Jews were daily removed from their homes and their homes destroyed, their goods confiscated and left to rot...

Please be, as you say, 'specific'...


Thank you Norman Finkelstein Jr. Such crap and so sad. The Holocaust as an excuse for Israeli abuses is the prime attack used bt many in the white supremacist movement. I am not suggesting you are of that ilk but surely you understand that these bigots love it when Finkelsteinites like you join their cause with such gusto.

And your attempt to paint the history of how Jews suffered in the Getto to the plight of the Plaestinians is tiring and ignorant.

The Warsaw Ghetto was part of the overall plan to murder an entire people. By extrapolating small pieces of the nazi plan and extending it to the plight of the Palestinians is an overall attempt (as I have said over and over) to "nazify" Israel. It is deplorable, offensive and ugly in the extreme. It borders on the worst kind of historical falsehoods. But then again you probably know that.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 20 June 2003 01:04 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Thank you Norman Finkelstein Jr. Such crap and so sad.

Norman who? I don't need anyone else to back up my arguments. You should be quite aware of that by now.

quote:
The Holocaust as an excuse for Israeli abuses is the prime attack used bt many in the white supremacist movement. I am not suggesting you are of that ilk but surely you understand that these bigots love it when Finkelsteinites like you join their cause with such gusto.

This argument is such crap. Rather than address the 'truth' of the assertion, you simply suggest that because some 'bad' people (and we agree they are bad) hold an opinion, it must be false. This is textbook ad hominem fallacy, Mishei. Again, address the truth of the comparison. What you have done is like saying - "see that murderer over there? He believes the sky is blue. But if a murderer says that..."

quote:
And your attempt to paint the history of how Jews suffered in the Getto to the plight of the Plaestinians is tiring and ignorant.

Your repeated rhetorical flourishes, logical fallacies, and lack of consistent argumentation are tiring and ignorant. Be specific, what am I - again specifically - ignoring?

quote:
The Warsaw Ghetto was part of the overall plan to murder an entire people.

Whether or not the intent was to 'murder an entire people' is highly arguable, but irrelevent anyway. Is it somehow 'better' when terrible abuses are carried out not as a lead-up to extermination? That's B.S.. Like Whazzup, you simply skip over all the stuff that happened in between - you know, the humiliation, denigration; the physical, psychological and economic abuse. In short all the 'historical details' that lay on the road to the gas chambers, figuratively speaking.
You are simply elevating the actual extermination of Jews to the only relevent characteristic of the sequence of events that was the 'Warsaw Ghetto'. There were other characteristics, and it is on the basis of these that comparisons are drawn.


quote:
By extrapolating small pieces of the nazi plan and extending it to the plight of the Palestinians is an overall attempt (as I have said over and over) to "nazify" Israel.

Small pieces? How are expulsions, concentration camps (not extermination camps), confiscation of property, starvation, general abuse and dehumanisation 'small pieces', exactly? In fact, they constitute a great proportion of the overall crime of the Holocaust. It is these 'small pieces': the removal of Jews from the sphere of 'humanity' which were direct and necessary antecedents for what followed. It was the act of denying Jews their subjectivity as political, economic and social beings (politicide) which was the prime move of the Nazi ideology - the exterminations were simply a logical extension of this mindset. I don't know how, for all your concern for Jewish suffering, that you could consider these horrors 'small' - unless of course, you are trying to legitimise a certain other political sequence involving the denegration, abuse and 'politicide' of another people.

quote:
It borders on the worst kind of historical falsehoods.

How so? Again, I ask you to respond specifically - not with some rhetorical reference to Norman FInklestein - to the question I put to you. What is not 'true' about the comparison I made above? Are you denying that either sequence described is factual? If so, on what basis?

Can he answer the questions directly?

Only The Shadow knows...

[ 20 June 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 June 2003 01:58 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
If you want to discuss this calmny why dont you create another sick thread instead of trying to troll?

I thought Mycroft made a valid point. Mishie's reaction is rather startling though.

I read an article in The Economist(yes, that Economist) in the early 1990s that noted a group of Rabbis who were against the occupation. They made the point that Zionists refuse to quit the occupation because if they were to acknowledge the illegitimacy of the occupation, they would be forced to acknowledge the illegitimacy of Israel itself.

Whenever I see the Misheis of this world holding their hands over their ears and screaming as loud as they can, in defiance of all argument, I think of this article.

I believe that the Misheis yell so loud, and the IDF shoots so fast, because if they were ever to stop and reflect on what is happening in Palestine they would scream in horror that they are becoming exactly what they fear the most.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
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posted 20 June 2003 02:36 AM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I sympathize with Mishei's view. Unfortunately, he wants it both ways. He wants on one hand for us to understand that horrors of the Hitler were the epitome of human evil, but on the other hand he does'nt want them used as a reference point for other actions. Historical events don't enjoy that luxury. If someone says that a land was destroyed like Carthage, they don't have to be literally refering to all the actions that were taken by the Romans (destroying every structure, tilling the soil with salt, removing the possibility of a re-emergence of a community). Of course people will make analogies that stretch credibility. The aim is not to establish a direct relationship but to show that even the ability to make the connection whatsoever illustrates something.
From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 20 June 2003 04:49 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the website linked above:

quote:
The colonial nature of this violence hides behind the excuse of suicide bombings, which the media/states turn into spectacles to deflect public attention away from soldiers, missiles, guns and bulldozers let loose on civilian grounds, away from checkpoints, curfews, creeping illegal settlements on occupied land, and the systematic eradication of a people's economic, educational, cultural, administrative, and medical infra-structure.

Don't banana republics do some or all of the above?

Soldiers on civilian grounds? Well, there's the inevitable mass arrests, harassment of civilians, suppression of political dissent, and so on. Check.

Checkpoints and curfews? Happens sometimes. Check.

Illegal settlements on occupied land? Most banana republics don't seize land from some other country and call it theirs, but I know that some South American dictatorships would internally displace aboriginal populations, although usually not for ideological reasons, but instead to boot them out from an area some big corporation wanted, or so farmers and ranchers could clear land for export crops and/or luxury meats. So can't check this, as the motivations aren't the same nor is the scale comparable.

Systematic eradication of a people's economic, educational, cultural, administrative, and medical infra-structure? Banana republics don't usually shoot themselves in the foot this much, although they can be definitely accused of neglecting their obligations to their citizens as their leaders pursue personal enrichment and power. Thus, the tendency of such governments to ruin economic, educational and cultural infrastructure can as much be attributed to sheer incompetence and stupidity on the part of the administrative apparatus as it can to malice.

So Israel has gone a bit further than banana republics, but it must be said that courts of law do exist in Israel, but how readily the Israeli government would accept the courts striking down laws like the proposed denial of citizenship act, I would suspect with a good deal of ill grace and some subtle warnings to the judges behind the scenes.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 June 2003 08:50 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So now the Israelis have established "concentration camps" . The writer adds parenthetically "not death camps".

And you wonder why most Jews who read this tripe begin to believe that some who post on boards associated with the left are trying to demonize Israel.

The malevolence against Israel and by extention Israelis continues here unabated. MP and human rights activist Irwin Cotler was tragically correct when he claimed recently that Israel has become the "Jew amongst the nations".


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 June 2003 09:17 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Really? So that would make Palestinians the N_______ of the world, to paraphrase John Lennon.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 June 2003 09:20 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Really? So that would make Palestinians the N_______ of the world, to paraphrase John Lennon.
Sad

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 June 2003 09:23 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure is. Doesn't have to be. But people have this need to oppress others in the interests of such abstract notions as tradition, power and greed. But, hey, what can be done about it but deny, shift blame, and continue, eh?
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Briguy
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posted 20 June 2003 09:42 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is it ok to compare to the South Africa apartheid system, Mishei? Or does that make one an antisemite, too? To colonial North America? Perhaps I should create fictional analogies featuring People A and People B just to be sure I don't step over the line.

quote:
However those who would constantly use the Warsaw Ghetto analogy do more harm to the Palestinian cause especially amongst progressive Jews (with some exceptions) who know the true agenda of such malfesance.

To use the generalities of what the Palestinains suffer and then claim it is just like the Warsaw ghetto demeans the history of both tragedies. There just is no real comparision and many of us can only believe that those who insist on trying to shove this analogy down society's throat are only trying to, in reality, demonize Israel and the Jewish people by extention. It is a falasious and ignorant abuse of history and is tantamount to Holocaust minimilization.



From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 20 June 2003 09:58 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei is certainly right about the sadness of the situation, or of the analogy. Analogies are always hazardous, but remember that in the Lennon-Oko song "Woman is the nigger of the world", that this is in the old Marxist (or more properly Engelsian) sense of "woman is the slave of the slave". Indeed the fact that the Palestinians are currently being oppressed by a people that was subject to such cruel oppression is the root of a lot of the world's inability to deal with this problem.

Rembemer that Nazis pretty much stand as the benchmark or "gold standard" of systematic, scientific racist violence, so people everywhere will always use Nazis as a catchword for brutal regimes and extreme state violence. In South America people oppressed by the dictatorships called the torturers "Nazis", and "Gestapo" was a very popular expression in Solidarnosc circles in Poland to refer to the troops putting down the workers' revolt.

It isn't an analogy I would have used because I don't think this situation of colonial oppression, brutal though it is, is the same thing as a systematic programme of scientific genocide. But I don't think all of the folks making it are anti-semites, and in this case don't think these MPS are "Self-Hating Jews".


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 June 2003 10:37 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It isn't an analogy I would have used because I don't think this situation of colonial oppression, brutal though it is, is the same thing as a systematic programme of scientific genocide. But I don't think all of the folks making it are anti-semites, and in this case don't think these MPS are "Self-Hating Jews".


Lagatta I appreciate your wisdom on the analogies and would have hoped others here could have shared the same wisodm but alas...

BTW, who exactly on this board said they were antisemites?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 20 June 2003 11:37 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BTW, who exactly on this board said they were antisemites?


quote:
who know the true agenda of such malfesance

Yes, yes, not in so many words, perhaps, but your meaning here is clear. I don't know why you take such enjoyment in this little game.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 June 2003 11:46 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:

Yes, yes, not in so many words, perhaps, but your meaning here is clear. I don't know why you take such enjoyment in this little game.


This is NO GAME. It is very serious especially when you LIE about a fellow Babbler.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 20 June 2003 11:50 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought that was my point...
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 20 June 2003 12:11 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
I thought that was my point...
Is that an apology for lying about me in your insinuation that being anti-Israel is being antisemitic? I have NEVER made such a claim in fact in other threads (as I do here) I have rejected this outright.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 20 June 2003 01:30 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What do you mean then when, in your dismissal of the British MPs complaints you say
quote:
who know the true agenda of such malfesance

And you haven't actually responded to the details of their arguments re the concentration of more and more Palestinians in less and less land, the denial of jobs and services, the turning of the screws?

Nor have you replied to comparisons between the occupied territories and South Africa's Bantustans save to accuse me of "trolling"

[ 20 June 2003: Message edited by: Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 June 2003 01:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You lied about me, no you lied about me, no you said, no you said.

But it's all OFF TOPIC. If we want to have a discussion about whether this person or that person said or implied this or that about another person then let's take it to rabble reactions, okay? You can link to this thread from there if you want people to know what you're talking about.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 June 2003 03:56 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is this equally racist and evil:
quote:
He (Isi Leibler) claimed yesterday that the Palestinian Authority had created "a society of evil" in the same way the Nazis had created a culture of evil. He pointed to Palestinian mothers who said their suicide bomber sons had gone to Allah and hoped that others would follow.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/06/20/1055828496529.html



From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 20 June 2003 04:08 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Lagatta I appreciate your wisdom on the analogies and would have hoped others here could have shared the same wisodm but alas...

BTW, who exactly on this board said they were antisemites?


Again, you just divert, divert and divert. I (among others) am not talking in loose analogies, I am talking quite specifically about particularly brutal practices.

Second on the issue of 'concentration camps v. death camps' you need to learn to read a little closer...Nuff said...

On the same issue - when was the last time you vistited Ramallah, or Jaffa? Be honest.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 20 June 2003 04:16 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Is this equally racist and evil:
He (Isi Leibler) claimed yesterday that the Palestinian Authority had created "a society of evil" in the same way the Nazis had created a culture of evil. He pointed to Palestinian mothers who said their suicide bomber sons had gone to Allah and hoped that others would follow.

I reject the nazi comparision outright and without reservation. The mothers who praise their son's for murdering innocent people are to be pitied.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 20 June 2003 04:24 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I reject the nazi comparision outright and without reservation.
I appreciate consistency, mishei.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 20 June 2003 07:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
I appreciate consistency, mishei.

Im nothing if not consistant.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged

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