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Author Topic: Middle East Quiz
evenflow
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Babbler # 3493

posted 17 June 2003 06:03 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
Middle East Quiz

This Quiz was put together just before the US attack on Iraq but the facts still hold true.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Steve N
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2934

posted 17 June 2003 06:23 PM      Profile for Steve N     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I liked the music.

I don't disagree with anything that was stated, but I could probably come up with an equally biased "quiz" on, say, Canada's treatment of aboriginal peoples. Heck, we could put any country under a microscope and come up with enough human rights violations of one sort or another and come up with a nice quiz.

So the point is?


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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Babbler # 3493

posted 18 June 2003 12:06 AM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
True enough. Point well taken.

I think the point of this particular quiz however is obvious to even the most casual viewer. It simply illustrates through the pointing out of a series of historical truths that there exists in US politics today a blatant double standard with regard to middle-eastern foreign policy.

Leading up to the attack in Iraq, the mention of Iraq's failure to comply with UN resolutions was mentioned almost daily by the White House and its representatives. At a time when no substantial evidence of WMDs have been found in Iraq (the supposed reason they were attacked in the first place), surely pointing out that there are far worse offenders of UN resolutions in that part of the world has relevance.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 18 June 2003 01:08 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree . . . if one were to listen to only mainstream media, one would assume that the only countries in the world that were guilty of international crimes, and broken UN resolutions are Iraq, North Korea, and Iran.

Now, not to put words, thoughts, or deeds unfairly on to Steve, but why is it that when pointing out US, Israeli, or most western nations crimes and abuses, a common right wing reaction is the one Steve has just given . . . namely, "no big deal, anyone can take a few "violations", rattle them off quickly, and make people believe that they actually mean something important" . . . but then that same "logic" seems to be forgotten when the same types of accusations are leveled at "evil doer" nations!!

If we applied the same standard of "forgivness of crimes" to Iraq as Steve just did to Israel, would there have been a war??

The other failure in logic that I see, is that Steve seems to be implying because Canada screwed over the Aboriginals, that makes Israel screwing over the Palestinians is ok . . . I would assume that both cases are wrong, and neither one justifies the other!!

Can't we take each nations transgressions and judge them on their individual merits, and stop playing this game of "my transgressions are more moral than yours"??

After all, that IS what right wing Israeli apologists would have us do . . . stop trying to apply "moral equivilancy" to the middle east situation . . . so let's just say that the crimes and abuses of Israel and Palestine are no "morally equivilant" . . . instead, let's just judge them for the crimes they commit . . . that way, we can actually get down to holding people (Israeli or Palestinian) responsible for their crimes!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 18 June 2003 01:43 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or, how about this?
As of today, all national crimes are forgiven.
Nobody has to to be punished... BUT... nobody gets a ticket to hurt somebody else because they've been hurt in the past... AND... anything we do tomorrow will be judged case by case, on the evidence, not on past record.

From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Steve N
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posted 18 June 2003 09:47 AM      Profile for Steve N     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm torn here, and you do have a point.

But the "quiz" bugs me in that same way that that right wing attacks against Cuba or China or Iraq or whatever bug me. It's propaganda.

Human rights violations are too important to me to enjoy seeing used as political attacks against a particular regime. If people are being abused, they are being abused in the same way against countries all over the world, and all abuses are equally important. I see individual countries being singled out by groups with own agenda, an agenda that doesn't seem to include attacking rights violations anywhere and everwhere they occur.

That being said, yes there is strong faction in the media and in some governments that won't criticize Isreal. If that's the real point of the quiz, I guess I can see it, but it still stinks of political propaganda, not advococy of human rights.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 18 June 2003 09:51 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I felt the same way, Steve N. As I was reading it, I found myself getting annoyed. I kept thinking about other countries in the Middle East that, to many of the questions, could have been the answer as well as Israel.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 18 June 2003 09:52 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BTW, this isn't "news". And it's a Middle East issue. So I'm moving it to the Middle East forum.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 18 June 2003 10:48 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I certainly can't argue against both sides being "guilty", but as the situation stands at this time, I will not be putting any effort into defending Israeli actions!! Nor do I think Palestanian actions are justified, so I won't be putting a lot of effort into justify their actions either.

What I will be doing is trying to "even out the dialouge" and put my voice into the effort of pointing out Israeli crimes . . . until such time as I think the mainstream dialouge has shifted to be too "pro-Palestianian"!!

So whenever I hear someone put forward the theory of "Yes Israel committs international crimes and ignores UN resolutions, but so what?? So do other countries in the Middle East and around the world!" I will counter with the equally "effective" argument "Yes [place Arab/Muslim country here] committs international crimes and ignores UN resolutions, but so what?? So does Israel and the USA!"

And yes it is annoying to see an argument that points out only the Palestinian side of the argument, but compared to the sources that point out only the Israeli side of the argument we should be pretty much immune to such an annoyance!!

[ 18 June 2003: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Steve N
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posted 19 June 2003 08:57 AM      Profile for Steve N     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So whenever I hear someone put forward the theory of "Yes Israel committs international crimes and ignores UN resolutions, but so what??

Sigh. That isn't exactly what I was driving at.

I have no problem with articles that point out abuses by the Israili government. Now magazine in Toronto, for one example, puts out a critical article every few months. They are very good about pointing out that these are policies of the government in power, they name particular ministers and armed forces officials that support these policies, and they point out that many Isreali citizens, the opposition parties, and Jews in other countries around the world do not necessarily support these policies.

On the other hand, we never see Now criticizing the Palestinians. I can accept this, because Now is filling a void in the media, and coverage of suicide bombings is all over the mainstream press.

Where I have a problem is when I see media referring "Isreal" is doing this, or "Iraq" is doing that. This is using human rights as a weapon in a separate political agenda. It is lumping an entire people into a catagory and blaming them for the actions of a single faction that happens to be in control.

The quiz above is not attacking the policy or offering alternatives, it is overtly attacking the country (repeatedly using "Isreal" as the answer to the questions), and moreover, I have no sense that the author even cares that much about human rights in general. The author seems more interested in attacking the mainstream U.S. media than resolving this horrible conflict.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 19 June 2003 10:44 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Steve, I think I understand that you would prefer that the media do a better job all around of being fair and complete in their reporting and editorializing . . . so would I . . . but it is not that way, so while local (formally) "underground" papers like NOW Mag, may print from a Palestinian prospective, it hardly balances out the commentary from more mainstream rags, like say the National Post, or the Toronto Sun, with their exclusively pro-Israel slants.

I'm not saying that there SHOULD be sources out there that provide biased pro-Palestian spin, I'm saying that because of the way the majority of mainstream media covers the issue, there HAS to be such sources of biased pro-Palestian spin!!

When the NP, the SUN, CNN, FOX, etc. start providing unbiased and fair coverage of the issue, then I will join you in critizing NOW mag and activist web sites for their biased and unfair coverage.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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Babbler # 3493

posted 19 June 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
bravo no yards!
From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Steve N
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Babbler # 2934

posted 19 June 2003 06:18 PM      Profile for Steve N     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When the NP, the SUN, CNN, FOX, etc. start providing unbiased and fair coverage of the issue, then I will join you in critizing NOW mag and activist web sites for their biased and unfair coverage.

I'm not sure if the problem is with your eyesight, reading comprehension skills, or maybe all you do is skim over an article and fire off a retort without realizing the contents?

I'm not criticizing Now. I agree (generally) with what they write. If I've somehow given the impression that I'm "anti-Palastine/pro-Isreal", let me correct it now. I'm not. I'm against any form of human rights abuse anywhere. Period.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 20 June 2003 01:56 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not trying to say you are anti or pro anything . . . my point is that your statements are the same ones that I hear from those who try to use a demand for fairness as a way to stifle debate (usually from the pro-Israel side these days.)

I am pretty sure you are not that type (I've browsed some of your other posts here, and can see that you are obviously not in that catagory.)

You just happen to use a seamingly "fair-minded" rebuttal, that usually comes from right wing political correct hypocrites . . . which also just happens to push my buttons . . . no offense intended!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged

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