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Author Topic: The Security fence for Security
Mishei
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posted 16 June 2003 11:16 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From Ha'aretz:

quote:
The separation fence is a necessary security
measure and that's how it should be regarded -
and not as an instrument to annex parts of the
West Bank to Israel. Therefore, the fence
should follow the Green Line as closely as
possible

Ha'aretz

No question that Ha'aretz has hit the right note IMHO.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
RookieActivist
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posted 16 June 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for RookieActivist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What's the point of this thread?
From: me to you | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 16 June 2003 12:14 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
and certainly not extend deep into the
West Bank so it can include a city like Ariel.
If it does that, then it won't be a security
fence but a fence meant to express the
annexation ambitions of the settlers.
Both from
the security and economic aspects, such a fence
would be very expensive and ineffective because
it will be difficult to monitor its full
length.

(finishing the quote Mishei started above, my emphasis)

The fence does follow a route significantly off the Green Line, annexing valuable land. What else can be read into it's design and construction, then, but that it meant to annex more Palestinian land?

This link contains the route of the wall. Scroll to the bottom of the page for a large map which differentiates the Green Line, the wall route where construction is already underway, and the proposed (according to Gush-Shalom) route for the rest of the wall. The amount of land being annexed by the wall, when compared to the Green Line, is shocking.

I do hold Ha'aretz in high regard. They are the only mainstream Israeli paper that even touches stories like this.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 June 2003 04:14 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A good neighbour would build a fence on his own side of the property line.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 16 June 2003 04:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
A good neighbour would build a fence on his own side of the property line.
Yes but at times even good neighbors negotiate property lines and when offered a reasonable settlement come to terms.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 June 2003 04:22 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fascinating maps, Sarcasmo. Deeply depressing, of course. Why is it taken for granted that Israel gets that corridor to the east, along the Jordan?

So true, al-Q. Or at least phone to talk it over. I just did that with our neighbour, who has a great gate-post (his territoire) that I wanted to use for hanging an identical gate on our side -- it seemed to me that we would look better that way. He agreed, no problem. We got to know each other better. It has all become quite warm and fuzzy, actually.

Oh, for a UN standing army.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 16 June 2003 04:35 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes but at times even good neighbors negotiate property lines and when offered a reasonable settlement come to terms.

I think I'd have a problem if my neighbour started knocking down some of the walls of my house during the construction of his fence. Especially if his fence ended up confiscating my kitchen sink and my computer desk.

[ 16 June 2003: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 16 June 2003 08:00 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah but Scars his former neighborss already encroached on his kitchen sink. His present neighbors have been trying to give it back but it seems his children prefer to throw stones at the neighbors family. Its frustrating to say the least and is affecting the entire neighborhood.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 16 June 2003 08:34 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm. Let's see if I understand this logic:

If Mishei and I are living next door to each other, and Mishei's children throw stones at me, then I am entitled to annex part of Mishei's garden and bulldoze part of of Mishei's house, and to be congratulated for doing so because I did not take the whole house.

Now, I am sure Mishei's children are very well behaved, so this is a hypothetical situation only. Even so, I find this notion of entitlement baffling. Truly baffling.

[ 16 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


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Mishei
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posted 16 June 2003 10:09 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:
Hmm. Let's see if I understand this logic:

If Mishei and I are living next door to each other, and Mishei's children throw stones at me, then I am entitled to annex part of Mishei's garden and bulldoze part of of Mishei's house, and to be congratulated for doing so because I did not take the whole house.

[ 16 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


No, but if the children put on suicide belts and murder my family...well you get the picture.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 16 June 2003 10:09 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Yes but at times even good neighbors negotiate property lines and when offered a reasonable settlement come to terms.

Mmmmmpf.... *snicker*

TeeheeheehahahaHA HA HA HA HA HA HO HO HO HO HO HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE...

*catches breath*

*Roars with laughter again so hard the walls shake and the Vancouver cops come out to see if it's an earthquake or not*

Mishei, you have received my award for the most comically stupid statement of the month award. I can't believe you seriously believe that is a valid justification in this context for building a fence the way the Israeli government has done.

PLEASE, Mishei, save me from laughing even more and show me ONE link SOMEWHERE where the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority ever sat down to negotiate this farce of a security fence.

quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
No question that Ha'aretz has hit the right note IMHO.

I guess you're not too concerned with the fact that the "security fence" doesn't even try to even approximate the Green Line?

Israel might as well just wall itself in and bury itself under if the siege mentality is that strong.

Paradoxically, of course, such an action would also mean that Israelis would be, in effect, admitting that they are now so afraid that they only would feel safe behind thick walls and underground bunkers.

Somehow I doubt that Israelis would feel comfortable with that logical extension of the chain of reasoning that brought the current government and the populace it governs to supporting the "Security Wall" in the first place.

[ 16 June 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 16 June 2003 10:14 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei, you have received my award for the most comically stupid statement of the month award.

Now, now.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 16 June 2003 10:27 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Security fence? Maybe they should build a conrete wall instead...
From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 16 June 2003 10:39 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is an idea. No one gets in and no one gets out. Peace in our time.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 16 June 2003 10:56 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
People still managed to get over the Berlin Wall...
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 June 2003 11:02 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes but at times even good neighbors negotiate property lines and when offered a reasonable settlement come to terms.

What an incredible statement.

I've talked to ISM volunteers who witnessed the bulldozers tearing apart Palestinian homes and orchards to make room for this fence. I may have the figure wrong, but I believe they said a swath of land 2-300 metres wide was used.

Oh, and the Uzi-toting private militia members guarding the bulldozer crews weren't negotiating anything.


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Mishei
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posted 16 June 2003 11:11 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mishei, you have received my award for the most comically stupid statement of the month award.
Doc you can take your award and stick it up your a**

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 16 June 2003 11:19 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mishei, I'm a tolerant man about many things, but I don't believe I've ever used swear words at you no matter what the provocation.

Do me the same courtesy.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 16 June 2003 11:25 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh come on, Doc, you had it coming. You don't have to swear in order to sting someone. Fair and square, you guys are even now, so let's not have this thread degenerate into an argument about manners.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 16 June 2003 11:26 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You ought always say please, Michelle. Thank you.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 16 June 2003 11:39 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're most welcome.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 17 June 2003 08:44 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No, but if the children put on suicide belts and murder my family...well you get the picture.

Ya, ya, and if the wall builder fires a few RPGs into my garden and drives a tank over my cat...

Haven't we been here before? This whole cycle of violence thing requiring two willing (and murderous) participants?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 June 2003 09:50 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, yes and no.

When one of the neighbours finally chops off the hands of the other neighbour, the Toronto police, anyway, will finally decide that someone was more guilty than the other.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 17 June 2003 02:15 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fence building and carving up the land is nothing new on the part of the Israelis, as this piece, whose last paragraph I do not subscribe to, attests:

http://www.counterpunch.com/loewenstein06142003.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 17 June 2003 02:16 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think a fence is good. It could stop further border and settlement expansion into the occupied territories.
From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 17 June 2003 02:51 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No, but if the children put on suicide belts and murder my family...well you get the picture.

Ok, Mishei moves in to town to let's say Montreal from Vancouver because he wanted to settle in the place his great grandparents originally came from. So Mishei show's up knocking on my door in Montreal one day and quickly pulls out a gun and say's "My Great Grand Parents used to live here, this should have been my house and now it is, so go to your room". I don't ask any questions because that guy has a gun, so my family and I go to the room. I spend lots of time in my room contemplating what am I suppose to do.

I bang on the walls, I shout for help to deaf ears. I even break out and attack Mishei and his friends who have now move into the rest of my house. I get so angry I try to make weapons to fight for what is mine. However My resources are minimal and they have confiscated everything from me. Mishei and his friends give us there leftovers once in a while.

One day Mishei says "If you start behaving, I will make you a door to your room and you may come and go as you please. I try to negotiate my right to room in my house with no success, I try to have Mishei pay me for what he took from me and my family with no success. He then tears down a wall to my little room for his brand new computer desk. At this point I have lost it, I can't live like this, I manage to kill one of his friends. He retaliates by killing my child. I finally come to terms that I will never get my house so I try to negotiate my room back as the day I was first confined to it. Mishei tries to give me only half back of his expansion for his computer desk and build a steel wall with no windows. He then tells me that I will be independant to a certain extent, I will will just be subject to his rules and I have to use "his" front door. Meanwhile my other son has become violently militant and thinks of no negotiation with Mishei is worth while, and I think of just living a peaceful life, even with these monster on both sides of my wall.Can anyone help this poor man? Help live a live if dignity? What would the solution be in this exact scenerio?

[ 17 June 2003: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Smith
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posted 17 June 2003 06:38 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Smith:
Hmm. Let's see if I understand this logic:
If Mishei and I are living next door to each other, and Mishei's children throw stones at me, then I am entitled to annex part of Mishei's garden and bulldoze part of of Mishei's house, and to be congratulated for doing so because I did not take the whole house.

[ 16 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, but if the children put on suicide belts and murder my family...well you get the picture.


Then you are entitled to shoot my children and take over a chunk of my house and expect me to thank you for not taking the whole house and slaughtering my entire family. Gotcha.

[ 17 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 17 June 2003 10:54 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"My Great Grand Parents used to live here, this should have been my house and now it is, so go to your room".

Sounds like the same logic that some First Nations extremists use to try and make land claims bigger than British Columbia...


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 17 June 2003 11:18 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are you saying that native people in this country don't have legitimate land and resource claims? By the way, down 'round here we call that kind of logic a false dichotomy.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
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posted 18 June 2003 02:16 AM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Blind_Patriot, I find your "Vancouver to Montreal" analogy quite good. So much so that I am convinced that, should you present Coles, the book people, with it and propose to expand on the topic along the same vein, they would advance you a tidy sum for their incipient best-seller: "The Israelo-Palestinian Conflict, for DUMMIES".

History not being the strong suit of the local culture and thus not easily assimilated -- well, come to think of it, not a weak suit either; better described as floppy footware for the beach -- your work might even be adopted as
integral part of the pedagogics of higher learning, for the easy digestability of its low nutrient and fibre content.

(And, do not forget my 10% of the take!...)

Cheers!


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 18 June 2003 12:24 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
(And, do not forget my 10% of the take!...)
Do you take PayPal ?

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
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posted 18 June 2003 01:37 PM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Blind_Patriot,

If it is "money", I take it -- This is a mercenary world...


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged

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