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Author Topic: Israel's loss of humanity
josh
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posted 14 June 2003 10:30 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not only detentions without trial, but prisoners are not even allowed to see pictures of their newborn children:

http://tinyurl.com/ec5h


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 June 2003 10:41 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This incident may seem trivial in view of the mutual bloodbath of the past few days, but it
is precisely these minor events that show the
level of cruelty that the Israeli occupation
has reached. The story of our moral deterioration is to be found here, no less than
in the acts of killing.

It's funny how this seems like something minor. But to anyone who has either been in prison or has had someone close to them be in prison, it's really an incredibly huge issue. People who spend time in prison need outside contact, particularly with family members. It's not just one of those little perks - it's essential to keep yourself from going nuts while inside.

It seems to me that the way to stop people from plotting violence and terrorism isn't to drive them crazy in prison. It's little things like this, small injustices, that people remember, and form their opinions and prejudices for life.

This article really struck me, having been close to a prisoner in the past. This prisoner still remembers every injustice ever committed against him behind bars, and it informs his opinions about the most widespread things in his daily life. I cringe to think what kind of mindset this is creating in people like the man in this article.


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Mishei
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posted 15 June 2003 12:53 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is sad. I am grateful to Ha'aretz for exposing this issue.

I believe in Israeli society and I believe that as long as there remains a free press to expose injustices, Israel remains a tolerant and democratic society.


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Michelle
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posted 15 June 2003 07:27 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, except if you're a prisoner. All the exposure in the world won't help if people aren't willing to do something about it.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 15 June 2003 12:13 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There are human rights groups in Israel dedicated to fighting torture and the physical and psychological abuse of Palestinian prisoners. Alternatives sponsored a visit by an Israeli human rights lawyer to Montreal several years ago, but unfortunately I don't remember her name - she is well known in Israel/Palestine.

Edited to add: Did anyone see this link on the same Ha'aretz page? Dedicated to "bringing the settlers home" - to Israel, from the occupied territories: http://www.bringthemhome.btvshalom.org/

[ 15 June 2003: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 June 2003 03:40 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Walling off the covenant : Jewish identity in the 21st century

quote:
Some time ago I suggested that we replace the Torah in the Ark of the Covenant with helicopter gunships. Since military power defines Jewish life, we should be honest about what we worship. If we worship power and might and remain silent about injustice then we should be acknowledge that choice. At the most meaningful moment of worship we should bow before that which secures us. Does the covenant secure us or do the helicopter gunships that hover over Palestinian cities and refugee camps? Torah or helicopter gunships?

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Smith
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posted 24 June 2003 07:17 AM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I, again with other Jews, have been disappointed by the reaction of those who would call themselves Jewish leaders. Their voices have only called for unity against an “uncivilized” foe and for loving rather than criticizing the state of Israel.

Well, gee, I've never come up against that. I mean, Israel lets gay people have a pride parade, right? And Hamas is anti-Semitic, and I wouldn't want to be seen as loving Hamas. And everyone KNOWS that you either defend Likud or you love Hamas. There is no third way.

I mean, I know it's hard for people like me to accept, but Israel is so kind to people within its own borders - well, the ones who aren't barbaric anti-Semites, that is - and so, what I guess I'm saying is, you know, what Israel does outside its legal borders is just necessary for its defense against the barbaric anti-Semites, and I shouldn't think about it too much unless I plan to think up new military strategy for Israel to protect its children against the barbaric anti-Semites, or unless I'm martyring myself dealing with many on the left who are just anti-Semites as well, albeit unconsciously so, and not quite as barbaric because they aren't open about it, but you know, one day they'll look deep within their hearts, as will the barbaric anti-Semites, and realise that they have no right to object to anything Likud does. Anyway. Unless I'm actively trying to lighten the darkness of the left, I have no right to think about Israel. So I won't. What am I doing - I shouldn't even be on this thread, should I? Oh, drat.

[ 24 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 June 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought that Ellis' comments were interesting in light of some of the threads that are current around here.

The walls that the Israelis are building, while intended to keep "terrorism" out, are also sealing Israelis within a segregated area among hostile neighbours.

The are building a ghetto.

(And references to wartime Lodz or Warsaw are not necessary - ghettos existed in Europe for hundreds of years before WWII)

There is no way this situation can last. Israel has to integrate with its neighbours or it is doomed. Krak des Chevaliers was once considered impregnable.

Exactly.

Ellis' thesis is that Israelis are giving up the one thing that has sustained them for thousands of years as a people, allowed them to survive when their historical contemporaries have one by one disappeared - something that has maintained the "Jewish character" more than any fortress: The Torah - in exchange for a faith in arms. In other words, they are becoming like any other people, and are leaving themselves open to the fate that befalls all countries eventually - oblivion.

This brings us back to the binational solution, I believe.


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Courage
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posted 24 June 2003 01:48 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
This is sad. I am grateful to Ha'aretz for exposing this issue.

I believe in Israeli society and I believe that as long as there remains a free press to expose injustices, Israel remains a tolerant and democratic society.


Heheheheheheheeeeeee.....

All the free press in the world (highly debatable) doesn't seem to be stopping daily extrajudicial killings, bulldozing of houses, humiliating checkpoints, curfews and general discrimination toward Palestinian Arabs.....


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Courage
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posted 24 June 2003 01:50 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Smith:

Well, gee, I've never come up against that. I mean, Israel lets gay people have a pride parade, right? And Hamas is anti-Semitic, and I wouldn't want to be seen as loving Hamas. And everyone KNOWS that you either defend Likud or you love Hamas. There is no third way.

I mean, I know it's hard for people like me to accept, but Israel is so kind to people within its own borders - well, the ones who aren't barbaric anti-Semites, that is - and so, what I guess I'm saying is, you know, what Israel does outside its legal borders is just necessary for its defense against the barbaric anti-Semites, and I shouldn't think about it too much unless I plan to think up new military strategy for Israel to protect its children against the barbaric anti-Semites, or unless I'm martyring myself dealing with many on the left who are just anti-Semites as well, albeit unconsciously so, and not quite as barbaric because they aren't open about it, but you know, one day they'll look deep within their hearts, as will the barbaric anti-Semites, and realise that they have no right to object to anything Likud does. Anyway. Unless I'm actively trying to lighten the darkness of the left, I have no right to think about Israel. So I won't. What am I doing - I shouldn't even be on this thread, should I? Oh, drat.

[ 24 June 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]



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evenflow
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posted 10 July 2003 05:09 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
All the free press in the world (highly debatable) doesn't seem to be stopping daily extrajudicial killings, bulldozing of houses, humiliating checkpoints, curfews and general discrimination toward Palestinian Arabs.....

Sadly, this is true enough...


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 10 July 2003 05:13 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
as long as there remains a free press to expose injustices, Israel remains a tolerant and democratic society.
Do you think that the National Post is Free Press ??? Mishei?

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Mishei
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posted 10 July 2003 05:19 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
Do you think that the National Post is Free Press ??? Mishei?
You have a wierd concept of a Free press my friend. Is the Star a "free press" or the Globe? They all have points of view but the idea of a free press is that it is not governemnt controlled. So yes the National Post is by any definition part of Canada's free press as Ha'aretz and Ma'ariv and the jerusalem Post are past of Israel's free press.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 10 July 2003 05:28 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You have a wierd concept of a Free press
So, what does free press mean ? Telling it like it is... or like it Izzy? If I have a weird concept of free press, well my friend, you have a weird concept of democracy.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
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posted 11 July 2003 05:33 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
The "free press" is more free in name than in practice. These newspapers are in the business of selling papers so the bottom line is money, and not necessarily reporter integrity or accuracy.

I don't think any of the papers mentioned are any better or worse than each other even though they all seem to slant harder one way or another, but its perhaps more accurate to think of these readables as the entertainment wing of industry rather than a fact-only-based conscience and voice of the people, in my humble opinion.


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Smith
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posted 11 July 2003 05:42 PM      Profile for Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As I recall, Israel's poor rating on the index of journalistic freedoms had a fair bit to do with the treatment of journalists, especially in the occupied territories - or maybe that was the USA's. I know the issue with the USA was not so much what people were allowed to publish as what happened to journalists who refused to reveal their sources.

The Asper empire keeps a very tight rein on its writers and the opinions and stories they put forward. I would consider it part of the free press if we define "free" to be "free of government censorship," but that's about it.


From: Muddy York | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 July 2003 07:48 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If a press is "free of government censorship" yet through self-censorship and journalism-by-press-release acts as a conduit for the government line (and I'm not even thinking about the Israeli press here), can it still be considered "free"?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 14 July 2003 08:50 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
If a press is "free of government censorship" yet through self-censorship and journalism-by-press-release acts as a conduit for the government line (and I'm not even thinking about the Israeli press here), can it still be considered "free"?
Yes. If the publisher choose this form of journalism (without coersion from government) it is their choice in a free market place. People choose either to buy the paper or not.

Some credit must be given to the buying public. Newspapers have folded for lack of credibility.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 14 July 2003 10:09 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Yes. If the publisher choose this form of journalism (without coersion from government) it is their choice in a free market place. People choose either to buy the paper or not.

Some credit must be given to the buying public. Newspapers have folded for lack of credibility.


Then what is the difference between a newspaper owner expressing his/her political views in a free press society, as opposed to a state censored press? Censorship is censorship whether it be in coersion from the government or a publisher's choice. The public still get mislead and uninformed, but I guess as long as it's sensational... eh Mishei?

Freedom of the press? Freedom to lie and deceive!


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 July 2003 10:40 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When killing becomes routine
quote:
And let's face it: what does it matter whether
the soldiers reported the incident or not? Why
should they take the trouble to report when
they know that, in any case, no one will do
anything with the report? A situation in which
IDF soldiers kill an innocent civilian and feel
that nothing happened that merits a report is
nothing short of appalling, and the
responsibility for it devolves on the Judge
Advocate General's Office, which decided from
the very outset of the intifada that it would
no longer investigate most of the acts of
killing in the territories.

Of the 2,235 Palestinians that have been killed
by the IDF, indictments against soldiers have
been handed down in only eight cases. No one
has yet been convicted.



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Mishei
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posted 14 July 2003 11:01 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
Then what is the difference between a newspaper owner expressing his/her political views in a free press society, as opposed to a state censored press? Censorship is censorship whether it be in coersion from the government or a publisher's choice. The public still get mislead and uninformed, but I guess as long as it's sensational... eh Mishei?

Freedom of the press? Freedom to lie and deceive!


Now Blind, please do not go putting words in my mouth. You sre confusing corporate media ownership with government censorship.

Only a governement can enforce censorship through law. Izzy Asper has a pov that you disagree with. He chooses to support Israel's position on the Middle East if you dont like it BUY ANOTHER PAPER, go on the net, watch TV news, your options are endless. There is NO censorship of news in North America. You have options exercise them dont go off into tangents about how news is controlled by private enterprise.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 14 July 2003 11:12 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Now Blind, please do not go putting words in my mouth. You sre confusing corporate media ownership with government censorship.

Only a governement can enforce censorship through law. Izzy Asper has a pov that you disagree with. He chooses to support Israel's position on the Middle East if you dont like it BUY ANOTHER PAPER, go on the net, watch TV news, your options are endless. There is NO censorship of news in North America. You have options exercise them dont go off into tangents about how news is controlled by private enterprise.


You missed the point Mishei. Censorship is censorship. I don't buy the national post, however it's those poor souls that do buy it are reading a pro-Israel point of view. For god's sake... it's not even a neutral point of view. It not a simple case of buy it or not. Clearly Izzy is abusing his responsibility to deliver the news as it should be delivered. It is clear that you support this type of jounalism and the discharging of those who want to tell it like it is. Izzy of course states that he is not a racist (Just like you). Spare me the bullshit.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 14 July 2003 11:40 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
You missed the point Mishei. Censorship is censorship. I don't buy the national post, however it's those poor souls that do buy it are reading a pro-Israel point of view. For god's sake... it's not even a neutral point of view. It not a simple case of buy it or not. Clearly Izzy is abusing his responsibility to deliver the news as it should be delivered. It is clear that you support this type of jounalism and the discharging of those who want to tell it like it is. Izzy of course states that he is not a racist (Just like you). Spare me the bullshit.

I am missing no point. It is you that is blind to the facts. Canada is a free and democratic society. Izzy is doing nothing that is against the law. Indeed The Toronto Star, The G&M, even NOW Magazine all have POVs. They are not practicing censorship. For that I urge you to go to places like Egypt, Iran Sierra Leone, or any other dictatorship where there is governemnt controlled media.

If you think Canada practices censorship well you have no clue what censorship is really all about.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 14 July 2003 12:04 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

I am missing no point. It is you that is blind to the facts. Canada is a free and democratic society. Izzy is doing nothing that is against the law. Indeed The Toronto Star, The G&M, even NOW Magazine all have POVs. They are not practicing censorship. For that I urge you to go to places like Egypt, Iran Sierra Leone, or any other dictatorship where there is governemnt controlled media.

If you think Canada practices censorship well you have no clue what censorship is really all about.


Your are attempting to twist my words. Again... predictable. I never said that Canada as a nation practices censorship. What I am saying is the you bub chums at the National Post practice this. No he is not breaking any laws, because freedom of press is designed from a Federal stand point, not ownership. I obviously so know what censorship is. It is you that fails to regognize that it can exist on any level.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 14 July 2003 12:20 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
Your are attempting to twist my words. Again... predictable. I never said that Canada as a nation practices censorship. What I am saying is the you bub chums at the National Post practice this. No he is not breaking any laws, because freedom of press is designed from a Federal stand point, not ownership. I obviously so know what censorship is. It is you that fails to regognize that it can exist on any level.
Ok let me understand this.. Are you claiming that The National Post (through Asper) censors the news that is printed? I am a vorascious reader of the news and in all honesty I have found very few major news stories on the Middle East or elsewhwere that has not been covered by all major newspaperes and electronic media. Can you indicate what news the Post ALONE has "Censored"

Now there is a difference between news coverage and editorial opinion. The Post like the Globe and Star have a right to THEIR editorial opinion and you have a right to disagree. But to claim that the Post engages in censoring news from readers is ludicrous. It just would not stay in business if it did. That's usually the answer to censoring news in a democracy with a free press.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 14 July 2003 12:35 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:
Ok let me understand this.. Are you claiming that The National Post (through Asper) censors the news that is printed? I am a vorascious reader of the news and in all honesty I have found very few major news stories on the Middle East or elsewhwere that has not been covered by all major newspaperes and electronic media. Can you indicate what news the Post ALONE has "Censored"

Now there is a difference between news coverage and editorial opinion. The Post like the Globe and Star have a right to THEIR editorial opinion and you have a right to disagree. But to claim that the Post engages in censoring news from readers is ludicrous. It just would not stay in business if it did. That's usually the answer to censoring news in a democracy with a free press.


Yes Mishei, it is obvious that you are a vorascious reader of the news, you come here and regurgitate some of the BS you read. POV's are one thing, and we all have our POV's. Writer's for the National Post are not allowed to be critical of Israel. That is a form of censorship. Also, not telling the full story and just highlighting pro-Israel points in the article is also censorship. How can a reader disagree on something whithout being able to substantiate their argument? The Post has an obvious POV and an obvious writing style when it comes to the Middle-East. The Post indirectly demonize other races and religions and poison our Canadian values when it comes to reporting the Middle East. The Post continues to paint a picture of Good vs. Evil.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 25 July 2003 11:07 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For those who continue to insist that the Idf does not investigate complaints, I thought this story might be of interest.

Ha'aretz


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged

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