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Author Topic: Are assasinations a way to kill the "road map"
josh
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posted 14 June 2003 06:35 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is not the first time this has been brought up. Sharon's government seems to time these assasination attempts to take place whenever a "lull" in attacks on civilians take place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,975538,00.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 14 June 2003 07:18 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
This is not the first time this has been brought up. Sharon's government seems to time these assasination attempts to take place whenever a "lull" in attacks on civilians take place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,975538,00.html



Duh...uh..ya think?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 14 June 2003 10:25 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Insults are also a way to kill the "roadmap":

http://tinyurl.com/ec5c


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 June 2003 10:32 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't understand - why would Sharon insult Abbas? I thought he was the man that Sharon wanted to see leading the Palestinians instead of Arafat. Seems counterproductive to me. Maybe Sharon really is trying to escalate things. That would make sense since he's a hardliner and the more violence there is in Israel, the more stomach the public will have for a hardliner.

I guess I haven't been following this story very closely during the last three weeks that I haven't had internet - I don't know much about this new guy at all.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 15 June 2003 12:58 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's try and look at the glass being half full:

Israelis, Palestinians hold 'positive' meeting


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 15 June 2003 03:50 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Let's try and look at the glass being half full

Trans. "Let's look the other way."

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 15 June 2003 07:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's an interesting article, Mishei, but it really doesn't answer the question of whether Sharon's assassinations and insults are killing the road map.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 15 June 2003 11:05 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle:

I believe that Sharon's immediate response was unecessary and I had hoped he would have given more time to see what Abu Mazen could do.

I am hoping as per the article that things may get back on track. And Al, try not to be so hyper-critical of everything that happens in the Middle East. There are those who believe in a 2 state solution who are working hard at peace. Sometimes I wonder if you have no use for peace if it means a 2 state solution.

[ 15 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
RookieActivist
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posted 15 June 2003 01:03 PM      Profile for RookieActivist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just out of curiousity, do you think that Sharon wants a 2 State solution?
From: me to you | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 15 June 2003 01:19 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We need a UN standing army.

Obviously, at the moment, we need a very large UN standing army. They should be in Congo. They should be in Liberia. They should be the bargaining chip with the bastards in Burma.

And they should be marching in to take the Green Line in Palestine tomorrow.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 15 June 2003 01:28 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And Al, try not to be so hyper-critical of everything that happens in the Middle East.

I suppose I have been rather hard on the practice of extra-judicial assasination. I don't know where I get these crazy ideas that free sppech is good and state sanctioned murder is wrong. I'll try to see things from your moral heights from now on.

quote:
Sometimes I wonder if you have no use for peace if it means a 2 state solution.

Now what makes you say this? Have you been polishing those antennae of yours with shinola again?

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 15 June 2003 01:35 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here we go...sigh.

This thread isn't about whether or not people should try to be positive or negative about Israel, it's about a specific issue that's happening there right now - the charge that Sharon is deliberately trying to sabotage the road map and peace in the region.

If we want to discuss whether or not we should think positively or negatively about Israel, then start another thread to do so, but don't derail the discussion in THIS thread with that issue.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 15 June 2003 02:49 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RookieActivist:
Just out of curiousity, do you think that Sharon wants a 2 State solution?
Im not sure he "wants" one but he is a pragmatist and is willing to "accept" a 2 state solution.

quote:
I don't know where I get these crazy ideas that free sppech is good and state sanctioned murder is wrong
Ohhh I get it like the free speech within the PA, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Daudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, Iran, Is that the free speech your talking about? Or maybe its the murder squads of some of these same regimes you must be referring to...you know the ones where if the leader doesn't like what you say you get killed mysteriously....

[ 15 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 15 June 2003 03:08 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Steady there Mish, don't go off on a tangent and try to obscure the argument.

I was referring to Canada.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 15 June 2003 03:08 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As for Skdadl's oft repeated suggsestion of an international force, I attach this excellent editorial today from Ha'aretz:

An international force futile


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 15 June 2003 03:15 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The current secretary general, Kofi Annan, and
his predecessors, tend to lean toward a stance
opposed to that of Israel and the United
States, and currently even to that of the
nascent Palestinian leadership under Abu Mazen.
Annan insists on including Yasser Arafat as a
key player in the Middle East. Such a stance
empties of substance the new efforts at
renewing the dialogue between the two sides.

Oh gosh, heaven forbid that the leader of the Palestinian "Authority" (what a joke that name is. Israel controls directly what, at least 30% of the territory nominally allocated to the PA?) be included in any kind of major conference to try and peacefully establish a solution to the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East.

quote:
First, what will be the authority of this force,
and its interpretation? For example, along
which guidelines and orders will they open
fire? Second, the force will be exposed to
attacks by hostile elements - Hamas, Islamic
Jihad and other organizations that appear on
the terrorist list of the American
administration would gladly strike at the
peacekeepers. Third, there exists the
problematic stance of the UN, which finds it
difficult to rule in favor of Israel, even when
it fulfills its part in an agreement to the
letter, such as the withdrawal from Lebanon.

Negativist crap. And Ha'aretz's editors ignore the fact that the USA backstops Israel and prevents anything substantive from being done with the 70-odd resolutions that have been passed.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ReeferMadness
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posted 15 June 2003 03:18 PM      Profile for ReeferMadness     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The UN does not have a
higher moral standing, nor does it reflect a
panhuman conscience, and noble motives should
not be attributed to it: It is a tool in the
hands of competing powers.

I couldn't have said it better. Until we have a world organization that is popularly elected and not the bastard child of the powers of the day, any international force will be continually suspect in its motives.


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Mishei
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posted 15 June 2003 05:28 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks Reefer for some clarity.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
RookieActivist
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posted 15 June 2003 05:43 PM      Profile for RookieActivist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mishei:

Im not sure he "wants" one but he is a pragmatist and is willing to "accept" a 2 state solution.


I respect your opinion, but I disagree on this. I personally don't think that Ariel Sharon is willing to accept a 2 state solution. I'm not trying to say that the majority of Israel doesn't want a 2 state solution, but I highly distrust Mr. Sharon.

He has control over the actions of the military, and he, therefore, is ultimately responsible for their actions. Mahmoud Abbas, on the other hand, has some influence with the terrorist organizations, but he doesn't have the power to control them. He cannot be held fully responsible for the actions of terrorists.

So when Hammas conducts an attack, you cannot say that the PA is hurting the peace process. When the Israeli military conducts an attack, it is fair to say that Sharon is hurting the peace process.


From: me to you | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 16 June 2003 07:37 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When even President Bush criticizes you for being too hawkish, you know you're doing something wrong.

quote:
In Washington, Bush scolded Israel for the strike, saying he was "troubled" by an act that does nothing to promote Israel's security.

"I am concerned the attacks make it more difficult for the Palestinian leadership to fight off terrorist's attacks," Bush told reporters in the Oval Office.

"I regret the innocent loss of life."


Bush scolds Israel over attack


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 16 June 2003 07:57 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
When even President Bush criticizes you for being too hawkish, you know you're doing something wrong.

Bush scolds Israel over attack


President Bush was correct in being concerned but he accepts as do many that both Sharon and Abu Mazen are working towards peace:


quote:
President Bush, spending Father's Day weekend with his father and other family members at the Bushes' compound in Kennebunkport, Maine, told reporters Sunday "that the free world, those who love freedom and peace, must deal harshly with Hamas and" other militant groups who engage in deadly violence.

"The message is clear," he said. "Prime Minister [Mahmoud] Abbas wants peace. Prime Minister [Ariel] Sharon wants peace. America wants peace. The European Union wants peace. But there are clearly killers who don't.


CNN


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 16 June 2003 09:59 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How can the PA eliminate or even disrupt Hamas when the PA security forces were deliberately obliterated over a year ago? There has been no effective police force (aside from the dubious policing of the IDF) since Sharon took the very deliberate step (last year) of dismantling all signs of Arafat's power. The most visible targets early on during the IDF advances were PA security outposts. The ressurection of Hamas (and other groups bent on violence) was foreseeable, and possibly even desired by Sharon, absent any other power in the Occupied Territories. But that's neither here, nor there...now that Hamas is back and strong again, they are acting as a pothole on the road map to peace.

Bush has written into the Road Map conditions which currently can't be met by the Palestinians, because their police forces have been so weakened as to be useless. I personally don't think that the shrub is bright enough to realize this weakness. Sharon is intimate with the situation...he helped create it! Abbass must be aware of it as well. Abbass is either fooling himself into thinking that Hamas can be controlled without outside help, or he wants a continued IDF presence (or, as suggested in the above article, an American presence) on the ground in Palestine.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
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posted 16 June 2003 11:26 AM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of assassinations, it has been reasonably well demonstrated that targeting the Palestinian side does not work. We must try elsewhere: my vote is that the top Israeli brass be snuffed, just to see if it works better!
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 June 2003 11:44 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's see, Israel is instrumental in creating Hamas as a counterbalance to Palestinian nationalists. Then Israel and the US put pressure on the PA to appoint Abu Mazen, who has something like three per-cent support among Palestinians (a figure I saw BEFORE the current post-Aqaba violence) in a further attempt to undermine Arafat and the PA.

I think Israel wants to promote civil war among the Palestinians so as to weaken them further and to distract them from continued Israeli settlement expansion - all of which will lead to complete annexation of the occupied territories.

And no, I won't accept cheery suggestions to look at the glass as being half full when it's clearly being drained.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 16 June 2003 12:03 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyAlexandre:
Of assassinations, it has been reasonably well demonstrated that targeting the Palestinian side does not work. We must try elsewhere: my vote is that the top Israeli brass be snuffed, just to see if it works better!
I see babble is now being used to advocate murder against democratically elected leaders. Surely this is against the rules.

[ 16 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
RookieActivist
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posted 16 June 2003 12:08 PM      Profile for RookieActivist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Surely you jest, Mishei. Weren't you supporting the IDF's assassinations of Palestinian leadership as the only option?
From: me to you | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
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posted 16 June 2003 12:12 PM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The "...rules..." should dictate a level playing field, that which I would advocate. So, you go and whine to yo mamma...
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
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posted 16 June 2003 12:33 PM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Further to my advocacy on a related issue, suicide-bombings, it is my categorical view that the immediate delivery of anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons to the Palestinians would radically diminish such incidents. A trade-mechanism might even be instituted whereby un-exploded "suicide-bombers-on-site" might be traded, on the spot, for a modest amount of the said articles...
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 16 June 2003 12:39 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anthony, I think that last suggestion of yours is brilliant. We need to find ways for Palestinians to resist the military occupation that doesn't require attacking civilian targets. Obviously, this requires levelling the playing field so that attacking Israeli military targets is actually a viable option. Almost certainly suicide bombings would drop, since there would be a more effective alternative.

Of course, there are nonviolent possibilities as well, but I'm not there and I really can't, at this point, assure them that nonviolent tactics will have any effect at all.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
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posted 16 June 2003 12:59 PM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Naaahhh, Mandros, non-violence don't work: just look at Jew's success story since the Balfour Declaration; by the way of the gun they rose from decrepit squatters to a great squatter nation. Greatness must be achieved by the time-honoured ways of the wieners...
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 16 June 2003 01:10 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yah, OK. *plonk*
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 16 June 2003 02:09 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, you were going in that direction, Anthony. Never mind, then.

[ 16 June 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
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posted 16 June 2003 02:33 PM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The title to this thread made me laugh. Is it any wonder that this site attracts people like this :


quote:
AnthonyAlexandre
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4200

posted 16 June 2003 12:59 PM Profile for AnthonyAlexandre Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Naaahhh, Mandros, non-violence don't work: just look at Jew's success story since the Balfour Declaration; by the way of the gun they rose from decrepit squatters to a great squatter nation. Greatness must be achieved by the time-honoured ways of the wieners...



From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
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posted 16 June 2003 02:37 PM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"...going in that direction.", Mandos? What direction, specifically?
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 16 June 2003 02:51 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ray: Tell me what you found funny about this thread title? Is it any wonder that more "pro-Israeli" sites seem to attract anti-Arab racists?

[ 16 June 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
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posted 16 June 2003 02:56 PM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you think trying to kill the leaders of a terrorist group, whose goal is to destroy Israel and who have killed a countless number of your civilians, is a way to kill the "roadmap" ?
From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 16 June 2003 03:01 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The only way to deal with the issue is to recognize that, ultimately,

1. the interlocutors in question are the Palestinian people.
2. by and large, Hamas is viewed as far more credible and popular in Palestinian eyes than Abu Mazen.
3. Hamas might have, in the future, agreed to a temporary ceasefire (a positive proposition from the point of view of saving lives, I'm sure) if it thought it wasn't going to be vulnerable during this period.

Unfortunately, if there was ever a script to kill the roadmap (which is just fraudulent Oslo II as far as I'm concerned, but we'll save that for some other time), it was to attack the Hamas political establishment. They have the power to make or break any peace deal at all, and ultimately Israel is negotiating with them, whether Israel likes it or not.

[ 16 June 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 16 June 2003 03:20 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ray Peterson:
Do you think trying to kill the leaders of a terrorist group, whose goal is to destroy Israel and who have killed a countless number of your civilians, is a way to kill the "roadmap" ?

And do you think trying to kill the leaders of a racist state, whose goal is to destroy Palestine and who have killed a countless number of your civilians, is a way to kill the "roadmap?"

There are two sides to every story, Ray. maybe the trick is to not choose a side.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 16 June 2003 03:43 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RookieActivist:
Surely you jest, Mishei. Weren't you supporting the IDF's assassinations of Palestinian leadership as the only option?

NEVER EVER!!!!

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
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posted 16 June 2003 03:44 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyAlexandre:
Naaahhh, Mandros, non-violence don't work: just look at Jew's success story since the Balfour Declaration; by the way of the gun they rose from decrepit squatters to a great squatter nation. Greatness must be achieved by the time-honoured ways of the wieners...
This is getting pretty close to the line...just what we need an antisemite on Babble

[ 16 June 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
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posted 16 June 2003 04:00 PM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There are two sides to every story, Ray. maybe the trick is to not choose a side.

I will choose a side if one side is a terrorist group who's stated goal is to destroy Israel. Plus, just by the title of this thread, I see sides have already been choosen.

quote:
The only way to deal with the issue is to recognize that, ultimately,

1. the interlocutors in question are the Palestinian people.
2. by and large, Hamas is viewed as far more credible and popular in Palestinian eyes than Abu Mazen.
3. Hamas might have, in the future, agreed to a temporary ceasefire (a positive proposition from the point of view of saving lives, I'm sure) if it thought it wasn't going to be vulnerable during this period.

Unfortunately, if there was ever a script to kill the roadmap (which is just fraudulent Oslo II as far as I'm concerned, but we'll save that for some other time), it was to attack the Hamas political establishment. They have the power to make or break any peace deal at all, and ultimately Israel is negotiating with them, whether Israel likes it or not.


2. Because Hamas is viewed as more credible then Mazen, what does that mean ? That Israel should "absorb" the suicide bombings ?
3. Hamas might, could, possibly, there's a chance....c'mon now. Hamas is a group who's very own stated goals is to destroy Israel. Israeli's and Palestinians should both be going after Hamas, the biggest obstacle to peace.


From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 16 June 2003 04:03 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But which Palestinians would go after Hamas, and would they be alienating the rest of the populace by doing so? Would/Should they create a civil war that surely Hamas would win if it were among Palestinians?

My position that rights come before security. So yes, it is painful and tragic, but Israel will have to accept that there will be attacks on it for a long time to come if there is also to be peace in the long term. That's too bad, but that's how it is.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 16 June 2003 04:07 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, Ray, when you choose a side then the die is cast. You can choose to only see one side but self-imposed blindness does not make the other side rational any less convincing to yours.

You say they are terrorists fighting to destroy Israel. They say Israel is a racist state fighting to destroy them.

I notice you have no complaints about the racists within Sharon's cabinet such as the Tourism Minister. I notice you have nothing to say about settlers who routinely murder Palestinians.

I assume that is the blind eye that refuses to see the other side.

quote:
Israeli's and Palestinians should both be going after Hamas, the biggest obstacle to peace.

Not te settlers? Not the racists? Not those who deny Palestine and who promote ethnic cleansing? Only Hamas. You have chosen a side and you are blind in one eye.

And then you probably think what you say should be heard by those who truly do believe in peace.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
NDB
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posted 16 June 2003 04:08 PM      Profile for NDB     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mandos, you're being sucked into an unending debate, in which the point coming from the other side is unalterable. Hamas are a bunch of terrorists and the only way to deal with them is to kill them. Don't bother. The search for subtlety will only drive oyu mad. You're actually better off engaging Mishei on this one.

Besides one of Ray's stated interests is spying on his neighbours, I'm sure they're all terrorists too. You could be in trouble.

[ 16 June 2003: Message edited by: NDB ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 16 June 2003 04:10 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know, I know. Ray can dig up all my old posts on the subject if he wants. I just felt argumentative today.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 16 June 2003 04:10 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 17 June 2003: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4178

posted 16 June 2003 04:34 PM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My position that rights come before security. So yes, it is painful and tragic, but Israel will have to accept that there will be attacks on it for a long time to come if there is also to be peace in the long term. That's too bad, but that's how it is.

That's too bad ? Sorry buddy, obviously Israel won't accept their civilians getting slaughtered and I can't imagine any government in this world that would.

quote:
Besides one of Ray's stated interests is spying on his neighbours, I'm sure they're all terrorists too. You could be in trouble.

NDB (you have the same initials as my sister) on a less serious note, if you want to understand my profile, here's a hint : watch the greatest movie of all time, The 'Burbs, starring Tom Hanks

quote:
Is it any wonder that this site attracts people like this

Pot. Kettle. Off-colour.


Sarcasmo, if you want to state your opinion about me, please go right ahead, no reading between the lines.


From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 16 June 2003 04:43 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 17 June 2003: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4178

posted 16 June 2003 05:15 PM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I thought I just did. Oh well.

Ray, everyone else has summed up what I think about you so much more eloquently than I ever could. From the posts I've read, I suspect that you think all Palestinians, or possibly all Arabs, represent a problem for Israel (not just the posts on this thread, BTW). Please correct me if I'm wrong...I really don't want to think the worst of people, especially people I don't know.


Where did I ever state that I thought all arabs were a problem for Israel ? Even in this very thread, maybe 4 posts ago, I stated that Israeli's and Palestinians should both go after Hamas. I think groups like Hamas are the biggest problem, but you guys, seems to me, think that settlers and Sharon are the biggest obstacles.


From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Maggot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3585

posted 16 June 2003 06:09 PM      Profile for Maggot   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Two things. Earlier, Al -Quibong mentioned that Sharon's endgame included annexation. I don't think that annexation of the West Bank is in the cards, since pragmatics argues against that scenario -- the demographics would force Israel to literally adopt an apartheid policy, and that would bring a shitstorm down upon her.

So as far as Sharon's strategy is concerned, I believe he thinks that while the status quo is unfortunate (i.e., Israelis keep getting killed), it is also sustainable. Keep the West Bank's Palestinians in perpetual political limbo, while at the same time continuing to up the Jewish presence in the area. But annexation? Nope. The State of Israel (as a Jewish state) could then be voted out of existence. And the alternative -- the actual disenfranchisement of citizens based on race -- would be fatal P.R.

Two, I think Mishei has a very valid point about that earlier comment being pretty close to the line, BTW.


From: BC | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 16 June 2003 06:46 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We must try elsewhere: my vote is that the top Israeli brass be snuffed, just to see if it works better!

Um, no, let's not go there on babble. This is not the place to advocate the murder of heads of state, sorry.

quote:
Naaahhh, Mandros, non-violence don't work: just look at Jew's success story since the Balfour Declaration; by the way of the gun they rose from decrepit squatters to a great squatter nation. Greatness must be achieved by the time-honoured ways of the wieners...

Um, what the hell is this? Good grief. That will be enough of that. Write something anti-semitic like that again and you're outta here. That's not "close" the line, it's well over.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 16 June 2003 07:57 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Um, what the hell is this? Good grief. That will be enough of that. Write something anti-semitic like that again and you're outta here. That's not "close" the line, it's well over.



Michelle, thanks for calling out Alex on this. I agree with you and hope this was just an aberration from him. Somehow though, when a person feels so free to post as he did, I cannot help but feel that his animus runs very deep indeed.

From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 16 June 2003 10:34 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Maggot:
Two things. Earlier, Al -Quibong mentioned that Sharon's endgame included annexation. I don't think that annexation of the West Bank is in the cards, since pragmatics argues against that scenario -- the demographics would force Israel to literally adopt an apartheid policy, and that would bring a shitstorm down upon her.

So as far as Sharon's strategy is concerned, I believe he thinks that while the status quo is unfortunate (i.e., Israelis keep getting killed), it is also sustainable. Keep the West Bank's Palestinians in perpetual political limbo, while at the same time continuing to up the Jewish presence in the area. But annexation? Nope. The State of Israel (as a Jewish state) could then be voted out of existence. And the alternative -- the actual disenfranchisement of citizens based on race -- would be fatal P.R.

Two, I think Mishei has a very valid point about that earlier comment being pretty close to the line, BTW.



It is clear that Israel with the fence, with settlements, with theor plans for the road map does indeed plan, and is in the process of, annexing the best parts of the West Bank (fertile lands with water resources) and herding Palestinians into whatever is left al a a Bantu.

Or, driving them across the river.

If you don't see this maggot, I suspect it is becasue you don't want to.

I too agree the comment was out of bounds.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4200

posted 16 June 2003 11:46 PM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peculiar, that the Israeli state can sanction murder of political leaders of the Palestinian, with the view that "the end justifies the means" -- the salutary moral values of the latter, notwithstanding -- but, alas, how could one possibly have the temerity to suggest "a quid pro quo" as an equally legitimate and exploratory action? Especially, for the sake of experimentation on account that (i) the first approach is a failure (ii) on the score of human salubrity, the Israelis have selected a healthy roster of unsavoury leaders that would hang more than once, if physically possible, under the rules of the Nuremberg trials. Nuremberg being a convenient point of reference by virtue of the previously expressed horrour of having "...advocated murder against democratically elected leaders."; there, too, did a good number of "danglers" claim that distinction.

And, there we go, again, the all-encompassing whining cry of "Anti-Semitism": they were not nice to me; I did not like what they said, wrote, looked and thought about me. Well, get real! WWII was sixty years ago and, since then, the official representatives of the decriers of anti-Semitism have not only quickly exhausted the bank of accumulated sympathy by the committal of atrocities towards the Palestinians, which must embarrass the memory of all who perished at the hands of the Third Reich, but, further to the detriment of "Semitism", the pro-Israeli acolytes
have engineered so an elaborate Whining-Lobby-And-PropagandaMachine as to give Joseph Goebbels a wet-dream and leave the rest of us in disgust. Of course, if I were a dissident Jew, I'd be accused of being a "self-loathing Jew". So, grow up and put up a cogent argument or shut up.

Funnily, a "Semite" is defined as "A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians. So, either the stupid, ignorant and erroneous application of the cited term stops, or, to the charges of theft of land shall the one of theft of identity be added.

"...close to the line...", "...over the line...", "...out of bounds..."... Whatever! Screw political correctness and timorousness: I advocate for the devil and I call it the way she sees it.

Yes, my "animus" is greatly stimulated by hypocrisy-at-large, which does run deep...

Cheers!


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 16 June 2003 11:54 PM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are nothing but a semi-literate but nonetheless viscious ANTISEMITE. May you rot in hell.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 16 June 2003 11:58 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Peculiar, that the Israeli state can sanction murder of political leaders of the Palestinian, with the view that "the end justifies the means" -- the salutary moral values of the latter, notwithstanding -- but, alas, how could one possibly have the temerity to suggest "a quid pro quo" as an equally legitimate and exploratory action?

You'll find that most babblers do not sanction the murder of Palestinian leaders, or even the summary executions and assassinations of suspected leaders of Hamas. You can deplore the actions of the Israeli government without calling for the assassination of world leaders on babble. You're new here, so why not learn something about what is acceptable on this board?

quote:
And, there we go, again, the all-encompassing whining cry of "Anti-Semitism": they were not nice to me; I did not like what they said, wrote, looked and thought about me.

Bull. I called what you wrote anti-semitic because you made a general statement about "Jews" based on what some Jews in Israel are doing. It has nothing to do with WWII, and has nothing to do with my sympathy for what happened during the Holocaust. It has to do with not wanting to see virulent statements about "Jews" in general on babble.

quote:
So, grow up and put up a cogent argument or shut up.

No, YOU grow up and learn the difference between arguing against Israeli policies and "Jews", or it will be you who will shut up, on babble at least.

quote:
Funnily, a "Semite" is defined as "A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians. So, either the stupid, ignorant and erroneous application of the cited term stops, or, to the charges of theft of land shall the one of theft of identity be added.

Yeah, yeah, we've been all through that. Everyone here knows the etymology of the term "Semite". And we also know that when we use the term "anti-Semitism" we're referring to prejudice against Jews.

quote:
"...close to the line...", "...over the line...", "...out of bounds..."... Whatever! Screw political correctness and timorousness: I advocate for the devil and I call it the way she sees it.

You can be a devil's advocate all you want, but if you make general negative statements about Jews, you will be doing it somewhere else. You know, it's not difficult on babble to criticize Israeli policy. Most of the people on this board do so regularly without making racist generalizations about Jews. I'm sure you can too if you try.

[ 17 June 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 June 2003 12:17 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So back on topic.

`Road map' one target of assassination attempt

By Hanan Ashrawi

quote:
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is sending a message to his hard-line constituency within and outside the Likud Party that he can be just as brutal as before, and that neither the "road map" nor President Bush's involvement will force a change in the Israeli government's policy of violence.

From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 17 June 2003 12:47 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
I am with Antony Alexander on this, untill there is a more level playing field, all road maps will be a waste of energy. The assasinations, check-points, occupation, suicide bombers,walls of shame, etc are the proof of that. That probably will keep going till there is a stalemate, and a stalemate it will have to be, since the world would not allow a genocide.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 17 June 2003 12:48 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
semi-literate but nonetheless viscious


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 17 June 2003 12:52 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
since the world would not allow a genocide.

It will not? Look around.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 17 June 2003 02:05 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
WingNut

I know what you mean.
Unfortunately we allow near genocide before we step in. Maybe we could take a hint from Bush and get into the pre-emtive genocide bussiness.

Was reading about world hunger today, rather depressing to know that a few basic changes in our economic structure probably could eradicate that and thus prevent a lot of misery.

[ 17 June 2003: Message edited by: Bubbles ]


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4178

posted 17 June 2003 08:52 AM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just trying to figure out the limits on this board. This will get you banned :

quote:
Oh those Americans can be so mean to Muslims. Its not as though they did anyting bad to them such as flying airplanes into buildings.

but not this :

quote:
Naaahhh, Mandros, non-violence don't work: just look at Jew's success story since the Balfour Declaration; by the way of the gun they rose from decrepit squatters to a great squatter nation. Greatness must be achieved by the time-honoured ways of the wieners...

or this :

quote:
And, there we go, again, the all-encompassing whining cry of "Anti-Semitism": they were not nice to me; I did not like what they said, wrote, looked and thought about me. Well, get real! WWII was sixty years ago and, since then, the official representatives of the decriers of anti-Semitism have not only quickly exhausted the bank of accumulated sympathy by the committal of atrocities towards the Palestinians, which must embarrass the memory of all who perished at the hands of the Third Reich, but, further to the detriment of "Semitism", the pro-Israeli acolytes
have engineered so an elaborate Whining-Lobby-And-PropagandaMachine as to give Joseph Goebbels a wet-dream and leave the rest of us in disgust. Of course, if I were a dissident Jew, I'd be accused of being a "self-loathing Jew". So, grow up and put up a cogent argument or shut up.

Funnily, a "Semite" is defined as "A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians. So, either the stupid, ignorant and erroneous application of the cited term stops, or, to the charges of theft of land shall the one of theft of identity be added.

"...close to the line...", "...over the line...", "...out of bounds..."... Whatever! Screw political correctness and timorousness: I advocate for the devil and I call it the way she sees it.

Yes, my "animus" is greatly stimulated by hypocrisy-at-large, which does run deep...



From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 June 2003 08:55 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hi, Ray. There's a forum for complaining about what happens on babble - it's called "Rabble Reactions". Please don't sidetrack this thread with complaints about process. Do it in the right spot please.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4178

posted 17 June 2003 09:04 AM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok Michelle, I just did.
From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 June 2003 09:07 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, I appreciate it, Ray.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4200

posted 17 June 2003 12:14 PM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle,

I have gone over my posts and I have not encountered anything that might be defined as "...racist generalizations about Jews." and "...virulent statements about Jews.", the distinction between the policies of Israel and "Jews" being quite alive in my mind. Perhaps might you do me a service and identify the passages in question; however, given the placement of your first accusation, I must surmise it relates to a statement concerning the "... Jew's success story since the Balfour Declaration;", in which case I am merely reflecting the historical record: (i) Palestine was colonised by Jews; (ii) the majority of Jews
were refugees and, as most refugees "decrepit" (Weakened, worn out, impaired, or broken down by old age, illness, or hard use); (iii) the said Jews were "squatters" (To settle on unoccupied land without legal claim. To occupy a given piece of public land in order to acquire title to it.); (iV) the same Jews proceeded to chase the Palestian Arabs from their land, "..by the way of the gun..."; (v) the jews made of Israel a "great nation";(vi) Israel, being the product of squatting Jews, remains a "squatter nation"; (vii) Israel, with its constituency of Jews, has conquered Palestinian land and, as such are
"winners"; (viii) "winners" of dubious distinction, I have termed "wieners", and the expression I do not reserve for Israel.

All nations were forged by "the gun" or "the spear", albeit not many in the 20th Century and certainly not with so much contrived connivance... I would much better stomach Israel if they had the honesty of stating just that: "we are screwing over the Palestinians because we can; we are strong and they are weak; we won, they lost and that's that!"

I quite understand that one might dislike historical records that turn around to take a bite from ones arse, but it does not justify infantile accusations and "name-calling".

"Everyone knows the etymology of the word Semite": (i) I doubt it, very much; (ii) it is unconscionable that you should be engaging in the wilful deturpation of vocabulary and promoting linguistic ignorance, especially given the piss-poor state of current English around these here continent.

Mishei,

So, I am "viscious" and the semi-literate, eh? Cute! Keep it up. You humour me...


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
NDB
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1234

posted 17 June 2003 12:20 PM      Profile for NDB     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
AA they're talking about you and Ray over here Limits

Take it outside to talk about how Michelle is moderating this thread. That way the rest of us can discuss whether assassinations will, or will not, antagonize Middle East peace propects. (Is that honestly the question? )

[ 17 June 2003: Message edited by: NDB ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Maggot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3585

posted 17 June 2003 02:03 PM      Profile for Maggot   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is clear that Israel with the fence, with settlements, with theor plans for the road map does indeed plan, and is in the process of, annexing the best parts of the West Bank (fertile lands with water resources) and herding Palestinians into whatever is left al a a Bantu.

Or, driving them across the river.

If you don't see this maggot, I suspect it is becasue you don't want to.


Hey WingNut, piss off with your silly, all-knowing hyperbole. We already know that the road map (as well as what went down at Taba), such as it is, provides for the annexation of many West Bank settlements that are adjacent to Israel. Justice? Hardly. A development that even the PA was willing to accept? Um-hmm.

The point is that there are limitations on the Israeli course of action, too -- best to acknowledge that. In some delusional hardcore quarters, the dream of Eretz Israel, stretching from the Jordan River to sea, is still alive. Just as in some delusional hardcore Pali quarters, they cling to the hope of driving the Jews into the sea. My point is that the grand terrorial aspirations of those ultra-right Zionists will never be attained.

You think the Palestinians will accept a compromise such as the one you outlined above? No way. And neither will the rest of the world, since Taba raised the bar for both peopes. And "if you can't see that, I suspect it's because you don't want to."


From: BC | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4200

posted 18 June 2003 03:55 AM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, NDB... Thanks, for the lead into he "complaint department". Being new around these here parts, I did not know of its existence nor had I realised that Michelle was the "suit", the corporate enforcer. I have taken a look around
and arrived at the definitive conclusion that it is not the kind of quarters I would frequent: I shall leave it to the week-kneed, snivelling mamma's boys who are dependent on a whining-post and mamma's skirts to find solace.

A RABBLE-ROUSER is defined as "A leader or speaker who stirs up the passions of the masses; a demagogue; an orator who appeals to the passions and prejudices of his audience" and RABBLE as "A tumultuous crowd; a mob; The lowest or coarsest class of people; A group of persons regarded with contempt". Don't believe me? Just buy a goddamn freakin' dictionary! So, if the proclivity for sycophancy, brown-nosing admonitions and other such foul emanations are to be maintained on this site, why not just stop the pathetic and obscene pretense and rename it "Mr. Rogers Neighbourhood II".

No, NDB, the above rant has nothing to do with you, in particular; I simply though it convenient to post it here, since here I am, and it is as good a place as any for dissemination to the wimps-at-large.

Now, "going back to the topic", the question of whether "assassinations are a way to kill the Road Map", might have been relevant if the Road Map had ever been alive. A more pertinent question would be "are assassinations a way to
breathe life into the Road Map?" in which case the natural answer would be "it depends"; for I am quite sure that assassinations are consistent with the Road Map charted by Israel but I would advance that the Palestinians might not wish to partake of that particular design.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 18 June 2003 10:25 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First you say this isn't the place for you and then you post a whiny rant and then you act like you want to get back on topic. I think you have issues.

Get back under the bridge then you whiny troll!

quote:
Occupation: Iconoclast

That's rich! You are so radical!


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 18 June 2003 10:30 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Occupation: Iconoclast

I prefer porphyroclasts myself (only one other person on babble will know WTF I'm talking about. Hi 'lance!)


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 June 2003 10:36 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
People, this thread is NOT the place. Really. That's why I resisted answering to the "corporate enforcer" thing. Nearly burst a vein holding myself back. If I can do it, you can do it!

Or! Take it to the "Limits" thread that Ray Peterson started.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 18 June 2003 10:38 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
All alone at the end of the of the evening
And the bright lights have faded to blue
I was thinking 'bout a woman who might have
Loved me and I never knew
You know I've always been a dreamer
(spent my life running 'round)
And it's so hard to change
(Can't seem to settle down)
But the dreams I've seen lately
Keep on turning out and burning out
And turning out the same

So put me on a highway
And show me a sign
And take it to the limit one more time

You can spend all your time making money
You can spend all your love making time
If it all fell to pieces tomorrow
Would you still be mine?

And when you're looking for your freedom
(Nobody seems to care)
And you can't find the door
(Can't find it anywhere)
When there's nothing to believe in
Still you're coming back, you're running back
You're coming back for more

So put me on a highway
And show me a sign
And take it to the limit one more time

Take it to the limit
Take it to the limit
Take it to the limit one more time



From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 June 2003 10:41 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I knew it. I just knew it. I have had that song in my head ever since writing that sentence. Only, I DIDN'T post about it HERE because that would be THREAD DRIFT! THREAD DRIFT, I tell you!

Grr...

(what really bugs me is that you posted it first even though I was thinking about it before you posted it.)


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 18 June 2003 10:43 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What can I say, Michelle. Great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ. I can't decide what that means about us.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 18 June 2003 11:48 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I would much better stomach Israel if they had the honesty of stating just that: "we are screwing over the Palestinians because we can; we are strong and they are weak; we won, they lost and that's that!"

That sounds like a paraphrase of something Moshe Dayan once said. I heard him say it on a CBC "Ideas" program about an Arab view of the Crusades. While looking for web links for the quote, I came across this:

quote:
Moshe Dayan stated in oration at the funeral of an Israeli farmer killed by a Palestinian Arab in April 1956:

". . . Let us not today fling accusation at the murderers. What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.

We should demand his blood not from the [Palestinian] Arabs of Gaza but from ourselves. . . . Let us make our reckoning today. We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and gun barrel, we shall not be able to plant a tree or build a house. . . .


Thsi same site includes a much-cited quotation of Dayan's:

quote:

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."


Palestine Remembered


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830

posted 18 June 2003 01:02 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
RAY -- I will choose a side if one side is a terrorist group who's stated goal is to destroy Israel. Plus, just by the title of this thread, I see sides have already been choosen.
Let's be factual. To say that the Palestinians are terroists is to say that they are not being terrorized in anyway. There is no doubt that there is what we refer to as "terrorism" on both sides. Whether it be one side using High-Tech Suicide Bombers and the other side using ancient barbaric Laser-Guided missiles supplied by the U.S... that is refered to as State-sponsored terror.

As for terrorism, let's not forget that it was terrorism that created Israel.


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4200

posted 18 June 2003 01:23 PM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scout,

I had thought "Limits" to have been this site's official, ever-present "Complaint Department", not having remarked its origins. It was the presumed corporate "Complaint Department" that to which I was referring, when I said that it was of no interest to me, but, now, that you were so kind as to advise me of its dubious pedigree, I might consider contributing some invective to the same; as concerns "babble" proper, it is under evaluation. I regret the related confusion.

To want to "get back to the topic" merely reflects my agreement with Michelle: having become better acquainted with the structure of this Site, I thought desirable to restore some order to it.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 June 2003 01:25 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
AA, this is NOT the place to have this discussion. Please. There is a forum called "Rabble Reactions". If you want to discuss whether you think I'm being fair or not, or if you would like to restore order to this site for all of us, could you PLEASE do it there. Not here. Please don't respond in this thread again on this issue.

And that goes for everyone else, too. Take it to rabble reactions.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4200

posted 18 June 2003 01:30 PM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Message Deleted by Reason of Unintentional Duplication

[ 18 June 2003: Message edited by: AnthonyAlexandre ]


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ray Peterson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4178

posted 18 June 2003 02:12 PM      Profile for Ray Peterson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Let's be factual. To say that the Palestinians are terroists is to say that they are not being terrorized in anyway. There is no doubt that there is what we refer to as "terrorism" on both sides. Whether it be one side using High-Tech Suicide Bombers and the other side using ancient barbaric Laser-Guided missiles supplied by the U.S... that is refered to as State-sponsored terror.

BP, I never said that palestinians were terrorists, unless you consider Hamas as representing palestinians. My beef is with Hamas, not palestinians.


From: Hinkley Hills | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830

posted 18 June 2003 02:39 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My beef is with Hamas, not palestinians.
Thank you for the clarification, however you still failed to admit that the IDF is state terror.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
AnthonyAlexandre
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4200

posted 19 June 2003 01:08 AM      Profile for AnthonyAlexandre     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The topographic calculations for the Road (Map) to peace would not be difficult to execute in the absence of an abundance of cronic mendacity, abject ignorance, congenital stupidity and repulsive intellectual dishonesty:

1- Connect all the dots that led to war.

2- Follow all the dots in the inverse direction.

3- That last dot is peace.

Voila'! Really basic stuff; it should demand no more than a single-digit IQ.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 19 June 2003 02:16 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyAlexandre:

2- Follow all the dots in the inverse direction.

3- That last dot is peace.



We're left with Abraham in Mesopotamia.

You're right! That was easy!


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mishei
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2785

posted 19 June 2003 08:48 AM      Profile for Mishei     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:


We're left with Abraham in Mesopotamia.

You're right! That was easy!


On this we agree. AA arrives and after two days on Babble has solved all the Middle East woes. Could he be the Messiah??


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged

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